I have been using Johnson's paste wax on all my cast iron tops and furniture builds for years. I recommend it for tool tops on my YouTube channel also. Well yesterday I got a comment telling me it is no longer made. Was discontinued the end of 2021 and my heart is broken. I am now searching for a similar product safe for woodworking machine tops and good for furniture protection without any silicone or synthetics. I hate change.
Time to hit the stores and get a couple of cans and put them in ziplock bags. One of those canes last me a long time, usually, but I am halfway through the one I have now and start waxing tomorrow.
I went through a couple cans of Johnson's a year because I wipe the rails on the sawmill with it using a Scotchbrite pad after sawing. Didn't buff it off. I also used it on all the shop machines. When it was discontinued I found a can on ebay but refuse to pay what the scalpers are asking now.
Minwax Paste Finishing Wax available at Lowes. Works nearly as good.....just checked and looks like the price has doubled in the last couple of months.
I also use Briwax on some of my furniture pieces. It actually is better than Johnson's but was always a lot more money. I'm not even gonna check on current price. :-[
I have been searching and like you Larry have found some cans available at ridiculous prices that I refuse to pay. I tried that mini wax once and wasn't really happy with it. I will start looking for a replacement once my mourning is over 😟.
I feel the same way..
I was looking to see if I could make a paste wax with wax and solvent, but I have not had time to experiment.
Dan
Quote from: Dan_Shade on August 16, 2022, 02:31:56 AMwas looking to see if I could make a paste wax with wax and solvent, but I have not had time to experiment
For food cutting boards etc we use a mix of wax and food grade mineral oil. Heat the oil and melt the wax into it, and when it cools you get a wax paste. Beeswax or Paraffin wax works, but beeswax smells better. 4 parts mineral oil to 1 part wax will be a good start. Also heat in a double boiler for safety. It's all food grade stuff, so you can do it with your regular kitchen gear.
It should achieve the same thing applying it to metal machinery, it's basically a wax paste. (and no silicon involved)
I've done that before, not sure if mineral oil is the way to go for waxing machine surfaces.
I was thinking turpentine or mineral spirits
This is news to me. I used to get it for $6 and I just checked on Amazon, now it's at $36 and only 1 left. I've been using this for years and it's been available for decades. If course its being discontinued, even paste wax isn't safe.
Does anybody know why? I am also interested in alternatives.
Naphtha component. We can still buy bricks of beeswax. Sometimes we heat and mix with food grade mineral oil for cutting boards. You might try hardwax oil or even tung oil on metal surfaces. LPS 3 was my favorite on my boats. Boesheild T 9 also very good. I also sell an aqueous solution of Carnauba for wood maintenance over hardwax oils but I wouldn't use it on metal.
I saw your post and read that Naptha was banned because it is a petrochemical so is flammable and when burned emits Greenhouse Gasses. Cotton is flammable also, I hope T shirts don't get banned.
Saving the planet from Johnson Paste Wax.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on August 16, 2022, 02:31:56 AM
I feel the same way..
I was looking to see if I could make a paste wax with wax and solvent, but I have not had time to experiment.
Dan
Opportunity knocks............
The Real Milk Paint Company carries a line of finishing waxes but I have not used any yet so I have no experience with them
https://www.realmilkpaint.com/category/waxes/ (https://www.realmilkpaint.com/category/waxes/)
I do really like their 100% pure tung oil as I have used a lot of it.
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 16, 2022, 09:57:33 AM
Cotton is flammable also, I hope T shirts don't get banned.
If they are it will probably only be ones with certain graphics on them.
Lately I have been using Walrus oil and wax for cutting boards and bowls. Probably could make it myself but it works great. If you follow the directions and raise the grain first it is a great finish plus they use some of the profit to plant trees that help heal the effects of climate change.
I always thought Naphtha was an area in California that produced cheap wine ;D.
There's also Orange Wax by 'Town Talk Polish Co.' 5 oz can for CDN $19. Don't bother looking on Amazon, or it will be 5 x the money. :D
https://www.towntalkcanada.com/wooden-work-surface-wax
YH we all hope you do not have to stop wearing T=shirts in your videos. :o :o :o :snowball:
DanG right, then I'll have to another "Robert's Rant!" Videos.
Now I may have to do one on the demise of Johnson Paste Wax.
It looks like Johnsons paste wax is a blend of carnauba wax, microcrystalline wax, parrafin wax, and naphtha.
https://www.whatsinsidescjohnson.com/us/en/brands/sc-johnson/sc-johnson-paste-wax
I was just throwing a cr@pload of Johnson's on my router table, using a can my dad had for years and years and years. As I used it I thought- "Hey, I should probably get another can of this". Sounds like that'll be a problem now. That's a bummer. I'm pretty new to using it but it seems to work great on all kinds of stuff.
News to me as well, bummer. I've got one full can on the shelf and my open can is about 2/3s gone, I will be following this thread. I'm soooo happy we'll be saving the planet by not being able to purchase any more of this nastiness ::) ::)
I've been using Butcher's Bowling alley wax with great results...
On shop machines and tools I've always used GlideCote. Looks like it's still available. Boeshield T-9 for tools in storage where it might be damp. Made in USA.
I have used orange wax and like it .
I will have to look what I have for can wax.
ACE hardware still shows it for 8.99$ for a 1 pound can. called and it is not on the shelf, but not red labelled so they think they can order it. we will see, and I will let you know. the employee is supposed to let me know. I ordered a case. not going to hold my breath, which to me never makes any sense anyway. :) :) :)
I checked the suppler at work.
Item has been discontinued.
None of the other 9 stores have ever sold it.
I don't ever remember seeing it in Canada. The only paste wax for wood I have seen up here is Minwax, which is poisonous. Lee Valley Tools has never sold it.
When I check Amazon.ca and other Canadian sites it's says in stock. 1 pound jars. CDN$51-69, Amazon.ca is the priciest.
What's poisonous in the minwax wax?
Not sure Dan, but the can is labelled with the skull and cross bones symbol and poisonous marked on it.
Picture for clarity.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/minwax-paste.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1660812746)
The msds lists hydrocarbons.
Quote from: thecfarm on August 17, 2022, 09:33:58 PM
I checked the suppler at work.
Item has been discontinued.
None of the other 9 stores have ever sold it.
Thanks for checking ray. It's sold out everywhere I checked around here. Time to move on.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on August 18, 2022, 04:52:53 AM
Picture for clarity.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/minwax-paste.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1660812746)
That must be so people don't use it on their toast like butter 😮. They keep outlawing my favorite things but do nothing about fentanyl that is a real killer. Just think in 13 years we won't be able to buy anything with internal combustion engines. They will all have been discontinued 😟.
I saw the title and thought you must be joking.
When will .gov be listed as hazardous to your health, they seem to cause a lot more problems than paste wax.
<Trying hard to NOT be a grumpy old man>
Quote from: Dan_Shade on August 18, 2022, 06:44:26 AM
The msds lists hydrocarbons.
My guess would be naptha.
If you're trying a homebrew, somebody was asking about limonene yesterday for a finish solvent, basically its the equivalent of turpentine from citrus peels.
Back when our sammiches were wrapped in wax paper it got used on the saw or whatever after lunch, plastic probably wasn't an improvement there.
Quote from: Don P on August 18, 2022, 08:34:11 AM
Quote from: Dan_Shade on August 18, 2022, 06:44:26 AM
The msds lists hydrocarbons.
My guess would be naptha.
If you're trying a homebrew, somebody was asking about limonene yesterday for a finish solvent, basically its the equivalent of turpentine from citrus peels.
Back when our sammiches were wrapped in wax paper it got used on the saw or whatever after lunch, plastic probably wasn't an improvement there.
We used to sit on the wax paper to go faster down the sliding board at recess!
Years ago, you could get waxed cardboard. It was used at butcher shops. My mother and uncle used that to slide on, in snow conditions.
Times have changed. Paste wax with a skull and crossbones.
My motor oil doesn't have a skull and crossbones on it and neither does my spray can of WD40. I guess they are not fire hazards.....
No luck here at Lowes or another building supply.
Got a couple of smaller ones I may try that may have some left.
The guy at lowes put it in his inventory gadget and it came up on line only.
Tried that and no luck.
Another site said you could get it directly from Johnson's no luck there either
Im thinking maybe it is not the nanny state's doing but perhaps simple economics,
Maybe even if 1 percent of the population is woodworkers, which I doubt,and used it which I doubt.
3,300,000 cans at 6 or 7 bucks retail is a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things today.
I'm sitting here fat dumb and happy with 3/4 of a can thank goodness, and at my age it will probably outlast me.
Im going to read the Johnson's label tomorrow just for kicks.
Looks like it was discontinued by SC Johnson due to its high volatile organic content (voc) which are carcinogens (I had to look it up).
My sawmill bed is made of galvanized metal. The edge areas have a bit of surface rust. Would applying a paste wax be a good way to prevent or slow down rust or will I was to apply it ever few days?
Quote from: tule peak timber on August 16, 2022, 08:41:15 AM
Naphtha component. We can still buy bricks of beeswax. Sometimes we heat and mix with food grade mineral oil for cutting boards. You might try hardwax oil or even tung oil on metal surfaces. LPS 3 was my favorite on my boats. Boesheild T 9 also very good. I also sell an aqueous solution of Carnauba for wood maintenance over hardwax oils but I wouldn't use it on metal.
I will add that paraffin is still readily available along with surfboard wax (Zogg's sex wax) car waxes (blue coral Meguires, turtle,) Bowling Lane wax and on and on. Every time the government steps in there is an opportunity for business to counter. There are wood guys bottling their own label of waxes using simple formulas and making money. Opportunity knocks ........ ;D
Quote from: melezefarmer on August 18, 2022, 07:31:12 PMThe edge areas have a bit of surface rust. Would applying a paste wax be a good way to prevent or slow down rust or will I was to apply it ever few days?
After a day of sawing, if I wasn't going to use the mill for a few days I would wipe on a coat of Johnson's using a Scotchbrite pad on the rails. Don't wipe it off or buff. This would keep the rails from rusting for maybe a month....don't think I've ever went longer than that of not using my mill. The wax also helped to keep the rails clean when sawing.
SwampDonkey, we can't get that good stuff here. No skulls and cross bones. Standard California warning on the back, something about you might grow horns iffen you eat to much. ???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/IMG_0860.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1660866597)
But did anyone else notice the "natural" tag on Swampdonkey's picture? Right next to the skull and crossbones? :D :D
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 16, 2022, 07:37:50 AM
This is news to me. I used to get it for $6 and I just checked on Amazon, now it's at $36 and only 1 left. I've been using this for years and it's been available for decades. If course its being discontinued, even paste wax isn't safe.
Does anybody know why? I am also interested in alternatives.
Ahhhh, that must be the one I bought, I wondered why I had to pay 37$ and 15$ to ship to Costa rica :o.
The can lasts me about 3 years and I do wax the tables alot.
SwampDonkey, we can't get that good stuff here. No skulls and cross bones. Standard California warning on the back, something about you might grow horns iffen you eat to much. (https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/huh.gif)
:D :D :D I almost woke up my GF who is sleeping beside me because I had a good laugh with this comment, lol. I'm in Switzerland with a jetlag
none at ace. you can get it on amazon and Walmart. have to order it, and it is 35 bucks +. how bad do you want it.
Do the car waxes have silicone?
I think some do. may have to read or make your own. look for the basic stuff.
Butchers bowling alley wax is the same dang thing.....
Ed
CDN$83 a 1 lb can on Amazon. :D
Some waxes are food grade, others not. Thus the poison label. I don't really see it as some kind of a joke. What about the fellow that doesn't bother to distinguish or get informed because he heard it 3rd hand that it's all good, but all he really heard was a brand name that offers 2 or more formulations with only one of them food grade. ::)
Quote from: Ed on August 19, 2022, 12:28:26 AM
Butchers bowling alley wax is the same dang thing.....
Ed
I tried that once and it has a turpentine smell that takes days to go away. The Johnson's wax odor is gone in a couple hours. Definitely not the same. I think they use turpentine instead of naphtha.
Here's the issue I have with it....Johnson's Paste Wax was used on this bench that's been in our showroom for years. I put a couple coats of Boiled Linseed Oil (probably illegal now), a few coats of Johnson Paste Wax and had this piece finished and ready in one afternoon, from start to finish. I have been offered several thousand dollar for it (would not sell) because it is a fundamental illustrative point for me when I tell people the differences between real high quality hardwood and crappy box store lumber.
"Look, with a little oil, a couple coats of wax, and done. Let the beauty of the wood do it's thing, don't use all those modern finishes on that are designed to make ugly wood look good, use a simple finish that makes a great piece of wood look better." This bench has had a thousand butts sit on it, we use it for a workbench, my dog sits on it, and it still looks brand new after about 5 years.
In contrast, right next to it, is a bench finished with modern Minwax Poly. It has had the same number of butts sit on it, and the finish looks absolutly terrible. It's scratched, gouged, milky in some place and when compared to the Johnson Wax finish, looks like it should be tossed into the fire pit. Two different styles of finishes, two completely different long tern durability results.
I use both these benches as an illustrative lesson to furniture making newbies that come to our showroom to purchase wood to teach them that old school methods in many way beats modern methods of wood finishing and tell them "When using old school wood, use old school techniques and finishes, it's cheaper, it's easier, and looks way better and lasts longer." Many people are also intimidated by the complexity of modern finishes and and tell me they are nervous about the complication and preparation necessary, whereas when I tell them how easy a wax coat is, they visibly relax and spend a few hundered to thousand bucks on my wood, knowing that they will be able to make it look exceptional, using very easy techniques. End of lesson to them. Then they ask where to get the stuff and I say "Lowes, linseed oil is $6 and Johnson Paste Was is $6, so for under $15 you can get a finish like this, and it will last for years."
So now I have to add "Oh yeah, this wax that has been around for generations has now been canceled because it a fire hazard, unlike the wood that it's been applied to. I wonder when they will outlaw wood because it's a fire hazard and put me out of business?"
I understand high VOC's but any solvent based formula will have those, and those flash off during cure, which happens very quickly. So when will they outlaw gasoline? Not only does it have very high VOC's but also trace Benzene, which a proven carcinogen. I haven't seen any skull and crossbones on my local fuel pumps.
I have tried alternative "easy to get" wax finishes and haven't seen anything as effective or durable. I need to be able to tell people to go to Lowes or Home Depot and get an equivalent. I haven't found one yet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/8EBBD2E9-C68D-4119-9B16-F142000D6781.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1524249671)
>
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/CAD8DED8-FFB5-4382-9EBA-59679153D59D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1524249634)
I'm going to try not to tell the wife how much they cost but I just bought 2 1lb. tubs... Should last me years.
I like old fashioned shellac on maple. My 'fleet' of wooden weaving equipment is all treated with it. But that being said, I have a cherry cabinet with carved moulding on the back and leaves, finished with a Minwax poly that is gorgeous to my eyes. Built it 12 + years ago and it even had to sit in an unheated barn 4 years. ;)
I may be wrong but I really thought naphtha and unleaded gasoline were pretty similar.
Amazingly enough not all regulations make a lot of sense. say_what I go through a hundred SDSs a week in my day job and find that the air duster in a can formulation is pure R-134A freon. So it is illegal for an automotive repair shop to release it into the atmosphere but I can buy a can of Air Duster and spray it to my hearts content :). Nevertheless, it still sounds like a created shortage/discontinued to enable the scalpers or it probably wasn't profitable to J & J to make it anymore so they thought they would spin their response to sound more "Green" to the general public.
On a lark I checked the little local hardware store and found it for 8.49$ a can. Bought all they had. Trewax paste wax will be the replacement moving forward .
Quote from: YellowHammer on August 19, 2022, 08:34:48 AMI say "Lowes, linseed oil is $6 and Johnson YellowHammer Paste wax is $6 $12 so for under $15 $20 you can get a finish like this, and it will last for years.
Quote from: tule peak timber on August 19, 2022, 12:42:10 PM
On a lark I checked the little local hardware store and found it for 8.49$ a can. Bought all they had. Trewax paste wax will be the replacement moving forward .
Is it a chain, or mom and pop? the ACE had it listed for 8.99 but were out and could not get it. Lowes and Walmart, and amazon have it for the 34 buck mark.
Food safe waxes up here are for the rich. All coming from Europe, sold by shops here that deal with wood working, so you know the supply is going to be an issue currently. Maybe Johnson's subsidies ran out?? :D
Doc, part of the ACE franchise. I had the manager empty their storeroom and then call their supplier. I might suggest looking at small town hardware stores that probably have it just sitting around gathering dust. Try that hardwax oil I sent you in a very small amount on your metal surfaces for rust protection as it will dry overnight. :)
I tried some smaller towns that may have overstock. at least there price was right, but no available stock. thanks. love the hard wax oil. Thanks again. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on August 19, 2022, 03:37:50 AM
CDN$83 a 1 lb can on Amazon. :D
$32.30 USD on my Amazon. I'm gonna lay back a dozen cans right now! :-*
I saw this in a quick search;
Mineral spirits is not great for you, I generally keep a can of that and worse in the paint cabinet though. I had thought naptha was white gas too?
Johnson paste Wax is made up of four (4) main constituents that give it the qualities of a good wood finish.
Deodorized Naptha-white mineral spirits
Carnauba wax from the carnauba palm
Microcrystalline wax
Paraffin
An easy to find idea via google is the formulas for paste wax made from beeswax. One that comes up is three ratios for a hard (machine tops surfaces,etc), a medium and a soft paste wax.
It states beeswax, raw linseed oil and mixing in a double boiler then allowing to cool. Mineral oils is another choice for making this along with carnuba wax which has always been relatively pricey.
Let's hear what works best for members, if you've made some before?
For cutting boards and for our hands when doing masonry a beekeeper friend keeps us in a beeswax/ mineral oils paste. It doesn't work good for machine slickum and I don't really want an oil on the saw or planer bed.
From reading last night... microcrystalline wax and paraffin are both from oil refining. Paraffin molecules are long and relatively unbranched where microcrystalline wax is smaller heavily branched wax molecules, more flexible. The microcrystalline "Rennaissance Wax" was first developed for the British Museum to shine their antiquities. They became concerned with the long term stability of beeswax. My stuff lives on a different time scale but point taken. I suspect with a compatible VOC to make it an easily worked paste either or both mixed would make a good wax for most things.
Quote from: Don P on August 19, 2022, 08:56:04 PM
I saw this in a quick search;
Mineral spirits is not great for you, I generally keep a can of that and worse in the paint cabinet though. I had thought naptha was white gas too?
Johnson paste Wax is made up of four (4) main constituents that give it the qualities of a good wood finish.
Deodorized Naptha-white mineral spirits
Carnauba wax from the carnauba palm
Microcrystalline wax
Paraffin
Carnauba wax is hands down the best wax...
I've asked some of my chemist clients to find me a non-VOC solvent for wax/oil combinations that crosslinks when exposed to air. Basically, a hard wax oil. The stuff I sell out of Germany and the more noteworthy Rubio Monocoat have it figured out -and I want to. I am asked to produce some different finishes from time to time that I've referred to here as voodoo #9 over the years from basic, legal, ingredients that get the client what they want, none of which is rocket science. Still experimenting.......
Here is a formula that is used in Mexico still today for furniture, doors, millwork etc. Liquid Johnsons' floor wax, a dollop of roofing tar and a little gasoline. Obviously can't use it here, but it works.
Top Secret formula. Please do not disclose unless there is a need to know.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/IMG_E0352.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1661007341)
For this batch I was heavy on the wax. I heat it with hot water and wipe it on wood turnings. It can be mixed so it's sorta slushy. Based on something Sam Maloof did years ago as a top coat. The BLO has driers in it so I have experimented with real linseed oil just so I could call it a completely natural plant based finish.
Sometimes I wonder.....the perfect finish is something that a social media "Influencer" with at least 50,000 followers calls good! :D :D Sign of the times. ::) ::)
Quote from: kantuckid on August 19, 2022, 05:40:15 PM
$32.30 USD on my Amazon. I'm gonna lay back a dozen cans right now! :-*
I quoted for Butchers Bowing Alley wax, not Johnson's. Don't see Butcher's on Amazon.com. Only see it on Amazon.ca
Beaumont Trewax is CDN$44 a 12.35 oz can on Amazon.ca
Made from pure carnauba base it says. It's clear.
But Johnson's is $80 on Amazon.ca, shipping doubles the price coming from the US. :D
While I was reading, yes Butchers does contain terps and IIRC naptha as well.
I happened across an old half can of gum turpentine a few weeks ago, must have been one of Dad's so I'm guessing its about as old as me, the label looked it. I haven't used turpentine in years. I opened the can and talk about your nose taking a trip down memory lane :D.
I use turpentine mixed with linseed oil 50-50 on warp/cloth rollers, wooden pulleys, warp beams, beam rakes, lamms and jacks of the loom and also my yarn swift. Don't want anything on them that adds friction to yarn. The turpentine/linseed oil mixture makes it smooth as skin. Only the superstructure of the loom gets shellac. Yarn with high tension will sink into any finish. If it is sitting for long periods may even glue itself to it. :D
I had 3 open cans of wax. A Johnson, a Minwax and something else (short, wide yellow can that stunk). Finally used them all up on my tools. Last year at an Estate Sale I picked up a can of Minwax for about $2 that I just opened last month.
Today, I stopped at an Ace in the next town over and they had 2 cans of Minwax (16oz) at $17.99. I stopped at my local Ace and they had 2 cans of Beaumont Trewax 12.something ounce at $12.99 so the same$/oz.
Call me crazy but I passed on both.
Sort of like ljohnsaw, I have an old can of Blue Coral brand carnauba wax thats ~90% full, a partial brown minwax and a (now coveted! :D) can of Johnsons PW from my MIL's estate. I've had the Carnauba wax around for many years from car use and have used it some on wood turnings.
FWIW, it's not a fun way to wax your car!
I may turn it into a softer, more user friendly paste wax knowing the price of admission to the new era in paste waxes.
I think I still have a large chunk of beeswax left from my trapline days before I got married. It is, or was common practice to dip steel traps.
Note that I've given you all a new wax idea to search for on automotive shelves-NOS Carnauba wax at yesterdays pricing.
I, like Yellowhammer want something that is off the shelf. In my woodworking videos I always get comments about how beautiful all my machine tops have stayed asking what I use to keep them like that. I tell them Johnsons wax is the only thing I have trusted for almost 50 years and they should try some. Most viewers don't want the mess of making their own so recommending a commercial product that has worked for me all that time means getting thank you`s after they try it. Then you have the DIY guys that make up their own but it's usually iffy. The last group is the guys that used car wax on their machines and can't get a good finish on anything they build. I guess I don't mind paying $30 a can for something that works to protect my 30k worth of woodworking tools that reside in my basement shop and doesn't leave a lingering smell that would make up into the house with my wife's chemical sensitivity syndrome.
And group 4 that uses Bostik Glidecote on machines that does not do anything to the wood passing over it and no vapors to smell for days. ;D
My understanding is that lot of car waxes have silicone in them.
I'm looking for an economical source of raw carnuba.
In AB shops silicone is the often the enemy. I was building a Subaru Impreza coupe for a son who was leaving for grad school in AZ. I'd bought a new front bumper cover (the plastic bumper part we see lying along highways ;D) and it's well know that they have silicon mold release remnants on them. I prepped and painted it 3 times in total! while trying to get him in his car to leave and me with a FT day job too.
Detergents usually get it off. Certain AB polishes do contain silicone and must be isolated from all other AB materials and projects but they can work wonders on a paint job.
Machine top "slickums" I've seen threads elsewhere go on for a very long time and usually they divide into wax vs. Boeshield T-9 camps.
I use wax now and then but not very diligent, I'll admit. Thus when I begin a serious wood project I'll clean them up some.
I will not pay $30+ bucks for a can of wax. ::)
I got a note, upon looking up tracking on my expensive paste wax purchase from Cramazon, that it was running late. They said if it doesn't show up in the next few days I should expect the order to be canceled and get a refund. My guess is they were yet again selling something they didn't have and that I won't be getting it. I'll be interested to see if any of you guys who bought some from Amazon see any either.
I am rich. I found a mostly full tin of Johnson's Paste wax in my shop yesterday that I did not know that I had ;D.
Quote from: WDH on August 22, 2022, 09:29:20 AM
I am rich. I found a mostly full tin of Johnson's Paste wax in my shop yesterday that I did not know that I had ;D.
You are only rich if you sell it and I doubt you will make that choice. Instead I see you having a rich looking finish on all your builds and shop machines that prove wealth is in the eyes of the beholder 😉.
Keeping a low profile on the back row, I squeaked through chemistry so not sure how firm my grasp is but I've been curious and down a rabbit hole. I've been reading an industrial "dictionary", (encyclopedia), from 1875. They describe refining earth oil (petroleum) and coal. This was before common use, or desire for, the lighter naphtha oils like gasoline. They were most interested in the heavier naptha lamp oils. "Naptha" runs the range of compounds from ~C7 to C12
There is much discussion of degrees of distillation, the proper fraction to use and 2 methods of testing for explosiveness of the naphtha (the flash point). They considered naphtha to be the family of light oils that distill from 39°C-~175°C.
They specified that for lamp oil it should be no lighter than that which has a flash point of 120° F and above. The lighter oils, gasoline, benzine, toluene and the other light fractions of naphtha vaporized at too low a temperature to be safe as a lamp oil. There is a cloud of explosive vapor around them at room temperature.
Coleman fuel is light naphtha with a low flash point making it easy to light. It would come over the distilling coil just after gasoline and has a flash point down around 80°F, it is making explosive vapors that a match passed over a pool would ignite at about that temperature.
Mineral Spirits... ~Stoddard Solvent is middle of the road C10 and above, I wouldn't push my luck but at normal room temperatures it should not be volatilizing.
Paraffin has a flash point of about 400°F and distills over above 370°C. Compared to the lighter ~10 carbon naphtha, it has 31 carbon atoms in a molecule.
Welp, I was mistaken, I got my shipment of two greasy (waxy, I guess) cans from Cramazon yesterday. I would have sworn that the can I inherited from my dad was more than a pound but it's the same size as what came. It really should last I while, I think.
This paste wax frenzy reminds me of the "TP Crisis" during covid beginnings. Just maybe you all are driving up the cost of paste wax even further? :D
Lowe's has Minwax for $15 can, in stock too, while Johnsons is going sky high, go figure on that one.
Just bought a bidet and all the wax I could find. I'm covered at both ends 8) 8) 8)
I asked a cabinet maker friend about what he used instead of Johnson's and he said it didn't matter to him as he uses Lundmark paste wax. It might be a viable solution for a commercial substitute.
Quote from: Don P on August 22, 2022, 09:41:30 PM
Keeping a low profile on the back row, I squeaked through chemistry so not sure how firm my grasp is but I've been curious and down a rabbit hole. I've been reading an industrial "dictionary", (encyclopedia), from 1875. They describe refining earth oil (petroleum) and coal. This was before common use, or desire for, the lighter naphtha oils like gasoline. They were most interested in the heavier naptha lamp oils. "Naptha" runs the range of compounds from ~C7 to C12
There is much discussion of degrees of distillation, the proper fraction to use and 2 methods of testing for explosiveness of the naphtha (the flash point). They considered naphtha to be the family of light oils that distill from 39°C-~175°C.
They specified that for lamp oil it should be no lighter than that which has a flash point of 120° F and above. The lighter oils, gasoline, benzine, toluene and the other light fractions of naphtha vaporized at too low a temperature to be safe as a lamp oil. There is a cloud of explosive vapor around them at room temperature.
Coleman fuel is light naphtha with a low flash point making it easy to light. It would come over the distilling coil just after gasoline and has a flash point down around 80°F, it is making explosive vapors that a match passed over a pool would ignite at about that temperature.
Mineral Spirits... ~Stoddard Solvent is middle of the road C10 and above, I wouldn't push my luck but at normal room temperatures it should not be volatilizing.
Paraffin has a flash point of about 400°F and distills over above 370°C. Compared to the lighter ~10 carbon naphtha, it has 31 carbon atoms in a molecule.
Learned all about light ends in Haswopper training. Specifically, the flash windows at oil spills when towing boom and pumping.
Back some years paraffin oil was often used as lamp oil. I suppose kerosene and paraffin are closely related if not the same thing when liquid.
Many paste waxes combine paraffin and beeswax/carnauba or other waxes and a solvent? I have a gallon can of a naptha/VM&P-> something or other? that used for cleaning oil based paint brushes. No idea about the letters as I didn't even take chemistry.
VM&P Naphtha is a refined petroleum solvent predominantly C7-C11 which is typically 55% paraffins, 30% monocycloparaffins, 2% dicycloparaffins & 12% alklybenzenes.]
Varnish Makers & Painter's Naphtha
My dad said he needed to wax the shaft of his trolling motor today. It gets hard to deploy and wax fixes that. He pulled out a very old tin of Johnson's. I told him that it had been discontinued, but with the age of the tin and the amount he still had in there I think he will be good for a long while.
Found a can in a local hardware store yesterday, $9 and change. Apparently still a few out there.
The shiny bottom of one can showed at the planer yesterday, there's one more that I know of. I go through a can or two a year, but minwax works on the bed just fine IMO, J&J's loss.
Quote from: RichTired on August 25, 2022, 04:02:33 PM
VM&P Naphtha is a refined petroleum solvent predominantly C7-C11 which is typically 55% paraffins, 30% monocycloparaffins, 2% dicycloparaffins & 12% alklybenzenes.]
Varnish Makers & Painter's Naphtha
Are you SURE about that? :D
In case nobodies noticed, the currrent cost for ANY solvent is crazy! I used to buy 5 gallons of lacquer thinner for about what a gallon is now and not that long ago. Walmarts is almost $22 gallon, paint thinners are also high in any type. Parts of the EV plan huh? ::)
I've not seen Benj. Moore paint prices rise any here in 4 years.
Paint prices in box stores like Lowe's and Walmart have gone up here by quantum leaps!
I make a routine swing by the mis-tints rack at my Lowe's store and have bought many gallons for ~$5, now they range from $9-$25 for a mis-tint of paint that retails for $45-50 or more. All lubricants and solvents are crazy prices now. Seems to matter who has the marker on mis-tints more than the original sales price.
i am fortunate to have a neighbor Ron who is a retired math teacher, that paints in his retirement. he will accumulate left over new paint in the 4 to 8 gallon range. He is a neat freak (compared to me) and does not like too much accumulation in his garage. he gave me his Dad's old American anvil, 165 pounds as he got tired of moving it. last made in 1912.
Good score.
I am in a wood turners club and we have a unofficial policy now that anyone who needs to buy something like paint, solvent, anchorseal or similar should post to the club email and try to pool resources.
This is sad news, one of those things you just take for granted. It worked great for waxing wooden drawer slides.
I would not use on furniture, but I have used regular old green turtle car wax on machine tops many times with good results. May not be the best or anything, but has worked fine.
I have a can of garage sale cheapo Simoniz car wax that I use for drawer slides and other non-esthetic uses. It leaves a white residue like most of the older auto polishes but keeps things real slick.
Alright folks I went to town the other day and picked up 4 cans at the local Ace hardware. I don't do much furniture and use different products on my machines. So we are now opening this up for bids. :D :D :D :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11861/20220831_103215.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1662306833)
I'm on a quest to get 1,792 Simpson SDS ¼" 1.5" screws for my plates on my cabin build. I was going to hit my local ReStore and was checking on the hours yesterday morning. Saw a review of another store out in the sticks (35 min drive) and decided to go there. They had a box of 2.5" that I passed on but wandering around the store, I found an OLD can of Minwax (light rust on the lid) and a clunking chunk in the can. I opened it and it was just shrunk a little and maybe one or two swipes used.
I took that and a couple other items up to check out. I said I couldn't find the price and she pointed to a little 3 penned on the side. Not bad, I thought. Then she shook the can and said it sounded a little dicey - how about $1. Sure - wrap it up!
Good score on the wax. A couple drops of mineral spirits on top can help older wax, if needed
It might be a good idea to get maybe 1,798 or so screws. Don't know about you, but I always drop a couple. lol
I am heading North, I might find some too.
Cost, tax too, and shipping is all I will charge.
Quote from: kantuckid on August 28, 2022, 05:39:39 PM
All lubricants and solvents are crazy prices now.
I get 2 cycle mix oil by the 5 litre jug, which is 1/3 the price by volume compared to the saw shops. The saws have never blew up yet. :D Chain oil I can get a full 4L jug for less than the 3.6L jugs in the shop. Some people use burnt motor oil for bar oil. :D
Quote from: btulloh on September 04, 2022, 12:40:15 PMIt might be a good idea to get maybe 1,798 or so screws. Don't know about you, but I always drop a couple. lol
So I found two lots of 900 screws and one of 200 screws on eBay. So I can loose 208 screws and still be good. When I built my wife a horse barn and did the inside in pine ship lap, I used about 8,000 Philips head screws using an old Craftsman variable speed drill (no impact). You really had to lean on it so it didn't cam out.
Now, that was work!
Roger on the cam out. Square drive and torx head screws plus an impact driver are some of the best things that ever happened.
We were in high cotton when phillips became standard, you could power drive them but they did cam out. As a kid just about everything was slotted, and generally soft and torn up from cam out. New work with slotted screws was careful piloting and nervous driving. Screws and drivers have really improved in our lifetime. Somewhere in the barn is an old yankee screwdriver. I think I finally threw away some 3" slotted screws a few weeks ago, realizing I've been looking at the jar for over 40 years and will never, ever, use them :D.
Well, as reluctant as I may be to contradict my learned and very esteemed collages here, I would like to point out that as driving systems have improved over the recent decades, screws have declined. The brass screws I can buy now are terribly weak and snap at a disturbing rate. When I make a piece of furniture or something 'nice' I really do not want to (won't) use steel screws or anything that looks like a deck screw. I use only brass or bronze when a client might see it or a corrosion stain might result.
I have a limited stock of brass and bronze screws my Pop left for me from his boat building days. Doc gave me a couple of boxes of old stock screws he had carried around for years at the last pig roast. I may leave some of these to my son, if he knows what they are.
I will take the time to pre-drill and set those screws correctly, it's worth it for a good finished product. I will also go through boxes of deck or structural screws when that applies. But not on nice finished pieces.
When my Pop did gunsmithing work, he had straight screw drivers he made or bought that fit exactly in the screw slots and I mean like a hand in a glove. There was no slipping allowed when you were working on a 100+ year old weapon. If he didn't have the right size or fit for a screw, he waited until he made and heat treated one for it. Try to find an old rifle that doesn't have slotted screws.
All I'm saying is, we still need to maintain the old ways for us old guys. Just cause it's old, don't mean it's no good.
By the way, if anybody has boxes of old slotted screws that are NOT plain steel, you can send them my way with my undying gratitude. :D ;D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on September 04, 2022, 05:43:05 PMThe brass screws I can buy now are terribly weak and snap at a disturbing rate.
Here is a trick I developed to save the brass screws. Use a Philips head steel screw of the same size to cut the threads first. You can even use a power driver and it's fast.
Yes, John, that's mostly what I do. I use some other screws for pre and test assembly, then use the good screws on the final before delivery.
For brass screws I have a tube of Porter cable screw lube that I bought about 50 years ago. Like a soft wax stick you push the end of the screw into and they go in easy if you use the right tapered drill pilot hole bit.The older screws usually have the threads stop short of the head and new ones that snap off are threaded right up to the head.
A wax toilet ring will work for screw lube, x2 on the tapered drill or gimlet.
Check on Mitek hanger screws and compare to Simpson's. Same specs bit different design. I bought a bunch with free shipping off the web in one certain size-I think it was Shell Lumber in Miami, FL and they got drop shipped from IN to my doorstep.
Back in the old, slotted screw days I dipped lots of screws in paste wax, not so much now days what with self drill star screws.
I can shoot a couple dozen 5/16" x 9" log screws on one small battery now w/o any wax.
Brass screws still get the wax job.
FWIW, I still have maybe 15 or more lbs of steel slot woodscrews from bulk buys over the years. They get ignored some too.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 05, 2022, 08:46:36 AM
A wax toilet ring will work for screw lube, x2 on the tapered drill or gimlet.
Maybe a cheapo wax seal ring would be a great wax source for mixing one's own woodworking wax? It looks to be the color of beeswax.
And, if you know a plumber maybe some pissy smelling free wax could be had? 8)
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on September 04, 2022, 05:43:05 PM
Well, as reluctant as I may be to contradict my learned and very esteemed collages here, I would like to point out that as driving systems have improved over the recent decades, screws have declined. The brass screws I can buy now are terribly weak and snap at a disturbing rate. When I make a piece of furniture or something 'nice' I really do not want to (won't) use steel screws or anything that looks like a deck screw. I use only brass or bronze when a client might see it or a corrosion stain might result.
I have a limited stock of brass and bronze screws my Pop left for me from his boat building days. Doc gave me a couple of boxes of old stock screws he had carried around for years at the last pig roast. I may leave some of these to my son, if he knows what they are.
I will take the time to pre-drill and set those screws correctly, it's worth it for a good finished product. I will also go through boxes of deck or structural screws when that applies. But not on nice finished pieces.
When my Pop did gunsmithing work, he had straight screw drivers he made or bought that fit exactly in the screw slots and I mean like a hand in a glove. There was no slipping allowed when you were working on a 100+ year old weapon. If he didn't have the right size or fit for a screw, he waited until he made and heat treated one for it. Try to find an old rifle that doesn't have slotted screws.
All I'm saying is, we still need to maintain the old ways for us old guys. Just cause it's old, don't mean it's no good.
By the way, if anybody has boxes of old slotted screws that are NOT plain steel, you can send them my way with my undying gratitude. :D ;D
I still have those for guns and antique furniture repair jobs. try and find an old gun w/o buggered up screws is more like it? ;D Euro firearms often have thin slots. Yea, I'm sort of old screw wise.
I believe toilet rings are beeswax. They do work good for grafting wax.
Growing up some of those older guys didn't need wax. Through the slicked back hair went that nail or screw.
My comments were more about screws moving into rough work, fine work is beyond me... I bugger high tensile regularly :D. But as I reached up at arms length the other day, hit the trigger on the impact and ran a screw stronger than a lag bolt into a brace at the limit of my reach with no effort. Just in my span, that is quite a change.
Have you tried sourcing from boatbuilding suppliers or some specialty (?) rather than regular hardware grade for alloys?
No offense guys but your talk about screws is screwing up my auction. :D :D :D
I get all my furniture screws from Lee Valley. Their brass screws are to their own specs and have a coating of lacquer and not threaded up into the neck of the screw. They are much stronger than the inferior screws I get locally. I definitely predrill all holes in hardwood projects. Their good steel screws have wax on them, I've never broke one or tore a head out. If I did, it musta been extremely rare because I don't remember it. I do remember breaking lots of cheap local ones and that was with predrilled holes. Why buy inferior stuff just to complain? :D Same thing when doing upholstery, you need good square cut tacks. You don't split your wood all to heck. ;D
321cb002038.pdf (webstaurantstore.com) (https://www.webstaurantstore.com/documents/sds/321cb002038.pdf)
still listed for 5.99 each and can buy a case of 6, but not in stock. I was excited. above is the link to sds sheet.
No luck here either. Have searched every hardware store in the area. Back to mourning.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 05, 2022, 03:28:19 PM
I get all my furniture screws from Lee Valley. Their brass screws are to their own specs and have a coating of lacquer and not threaded up into the neck of the screw. They are much stronger than the inferior screws I get locally. I definitely predrill all holes in hardwood projects. Their good steel screws have wax on them, I've never broke one or tore a head out. If I did, it musta been extremely rare because I don't remember it. I do remember breaking lots of cheap local ones and that was with predrilled holes. Why buy inferior stuff just to complain? :D Same thing when doing upholstery, you need good square cut tacks. You don't split your wood all to heck. ;D
My brass screws come from Ebay sellers and are all brand name screws. Other hardware varies a lot, but brass screws there by the box remain a great value. Any brass screw is soft as far as screws are concerned. Only with furniture do I use brass screws or hinges, so a careful pilot hole is done, often via a taper drill designed for tapered screws. I always wax a slotted style screw. BTW, I've never seen a non-square upholstery tack? Or a non-sterilized one either.
Quote from: doc henderson on September 07, 2022, 03:14:28 PM
321cb002038.pdf (webstaurantstore.com) (https://www.webstaurantstore.com/documents/sds/321cb002038.pdf)
still listed for 5.99 each and can buy a case of 6, but not in stock. I was excited. above is the link to sds sheet.
Now we know the lawyers killed Johnson's wax. benzenes not real good for skin contact. Cumene I've never heard of? Cumin I like lots ;D
There's definitely non square tacks used, and they do not perform like a square cut one. ;)
Here's cumene, from an old source;
The Light Oils or Naphthas contain the following bodies :
Boiling-point. Cent.
Amylene 39°
Traces of propylene, butylene dissolved in their homologous liquids
Caproylene or hexylene 65° to 70°
Hydruret of hexylene 68°
Petinine 80°
Benzine 82° to 83° S.G- 0.850
Oenanthylene or heptylene 94°
Toluene 105° to 108°
Parabenzine 97° to 98°
Hydruret of octyle 116°to 118°
Xylene 127° to 128°
Picoline 133°— S.G.-0.955
Cumene ... 151°
Hydruret of decyle 158°
Pyridine 150°
Cymene 176°
My wife's KY aunt who died two years back, her nickname was "ene" and the only "ene" I 've known very well. ;D