The Forestry Forum

Rather than hijack Dave's "groundie" thread, thought a new one would be a way to pick up on the shop heat diecussion started over there. Interesting to hear how others set up their "happy places" as Tom calls them.

My home shop is small at 12'x16'. Only need to work on saws, (or my snow blower), so that's plenty of room for me. Well organized, well lit, decent stereo. Especially nice out there when it's snowing out.

For heat I've been using 2 methods. 18,500 Kero-Sun, and last year I got one of those twin burner heaters that mount on the barbecue tanks. Of the 2, the propane deal is the better one. 2 burners X 3 setting means 6 different heat settings. Only need to heat it when I'm actually out there, so either gadget works fine. Together, they quicken the warm up time, and extend the temp range if needed.

Considered a woodstove when I built it, but it would take up too much room in my little shop, and it would take it up all year long. Those other heaters can be tucked under the bench and out of the way when not needed. And since I'm not heating it unless I'm actually out there, I'd be out there in the cold, getting the wood fire going. With the propane or Kero heaters, I can light one and then go back into the house for 20-30 minutes and let the place warm up.

Never been a need to maintain the temp like Tom might with ongoing wood working projects, and I could go a week or 2 without going out there at all. 15 gallons of Kero traditionally got me through a season. That's gonna change with retiring from the store though. And I much prefer the newer propane heater, so we'll see how she goes cost wise.

Never did the fridge for obvious reasons, and the house is only 100' away. Sticking beers in the snow works pretty good.  :)

All I got to say is, Enjoy your retirement!!! Lucky you.  ;D

The enternal vent Toyostoves are pretty slick. They replaced Monitors who are no longer made but the newer ones run low sulfur fuel oil.

In my home garage I have an original design "ember glow" propane heater mounted on a cart making it portable using a 20 pound pound cylinder .It's doesn't create a lot of heat but enough to make it tolerable if I need to work on some thing .
My shop is 60 by 70 with  hanging radiant natural gas tubing heat .It does fine but it's not cheap .Something with that many cubic feet is about like heating a dairy barn ,pricey .If I ran a business would be another situation but being retired I don't use it that often .I can not fathom how much wood it would take to heat that shop ,a huge amount .

After years of using a woodstove in a safe masonry flue in my dedicated, standalone woodshop, a 150 yards from our home, I stumbled onto the fact that KY Farm Bureau, my home & auto insurer would cancel my homes insurance if they saw the shops wood heat. They, and every other insurer I asked doesn't allow wood heat in an un-occupied structure and cancels the entire coverage.
I was in a food fight with them over their handling of a parking lot fender bender where the other driver lied, thus I was asking around for a new insurer and learned this factoid on my shops heat source. I actually didn't use it as much as once was after I'd installed an electric overhead heater some years back for ease of overnight glue ups and finishing cures. 
The overhead heaters are not something new and exciting, but the install is easy and cost inexpensive, with operation cheap for me based on our low KY electric rates. 

I've been watching U-tubes on waste oil shop heaters. I stumbled into it sideways looking for a hotter melting furnace and saw smokeless drip feed oil burners. I make enough oil that might take some of the chill off.

And yes, if any of this burns, we are up teepee creek. There are bobcats and bears in the woods, stay alert  :).

My 28 x 36 shop is heated the same way as my house, by my outdoor wood boiler. Always warm and cozy, and never a worry of rusted tools, or frozen supplies. 

I'm going with an infrared natural gas heater up on the wall....thermostat, millivolt driven so no power required. If I have gas, I have heat. It will also have a fan though as an option.

I love kerosene heaters and have used them for decades but the price of the K-1 fuel has driven most people away. The gas is passive;you just turn up the thermostat. These infrareds will run off off propane or natural gas.

One of the models I'm looking at has a bracket that attaches to a stud and the heater angles down. That's absolutely perfect for my garage back wall....no space given up.

Kevin  

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 10, 2022, 07:58:36 AM
I love kerosene heaters and have used them for decades but the price of the K-1 fuel has driven most people away. The gas is passive;you just turn up the thermostat. These infrareds will run off off propane or natural gas.


Kevin  

Yes, that's why I went out and got the propane tank heater last year. And in the case of the station across the street from my store, the empty tank or broken pump signs were more frequent than having the thing actually working. 

This is what you want. Inferred radiant heat. From small places to the biggest commercial shops. These heat all surfaces around you and they work fantastic 

https://spaceray.com/ (https://spaceray.com/)


https://spaceray.com/residential-garage-outdoor-living-heating/ (https://spaceray.com/residential-garage-outdoor-living-heating/)

https://spaceray.com/ProductPDF/NXU_NXS/S45400-ForceRed-Series-Spec-Sheet.pdf (https://spaceray.com/ProductPDF/NXU_NXS/S45400-ForceRed-Series-Spec-Sheet.pdf)

Current shop is 20FTX60FT 16 FT side walls. 14X16 overhead door. Built in 2003. In floor heat 90 plus LP furnace. In 2009 I installed a Garn wood boiler and heat my house and shop with it now so the 90 plus furnace acts as a air handler with a coil in it. I would never have a shop with our in floor heat. I leave it a fifty degrees and kick the air handler on in the morning to take the chill off. Spike your going to like retirement. Quit my town job five years ago because of some health issues and now just work on my farms. Sure don't miss the town job. 

My bud Dave who is one of the experts nation wide on Corvettes and Camaros  has a 60 by 100 shop he heats with used crankcase oil .He can store about 4,000 gallons which is where my crankcase oil goes .Takes me a couple of years to get a drum full .

my shop and house has in floor heat.  I have a woodstove in the house and shop.  in the shop I set the thermostat at 55 and start a fire to warm hands if outside, and take the edge off for inside work.  60° is about right for doing medium work.

Whatever you do make sure it has a fresh air supply and is properly vented. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer but you already know that

I'm still working on my shop and the heated/cooled part is a 12' X 20' well insulated room in a corner of a 46' X 64' pole building. After much talking and research I'll be putting in a MiniSplit unit probably Mitsubishi, my local heating and cooling dude said I'll be surprised at how economical the new units are.

Bob and I both don't want to give up the shop space to a wood stove. And like he said, the stove sits there all yr long. If I had the space though, I'd do it......although woods stoves have a limit in bigger spaces. I had a big machine barn back on my farm in MO. My shop was an insulated room within that barn with gas heat. The rest was unheated and un-insulated.

So, one yr I got a wild hair to put in one of those double 55gal stoves you see in the magazines. I had high hopes I could heat the rest of the un-insulated barn with that stove arrangement. I even lined the bottom stove with fire bricks. Fired her up with oak. What a joke....it didn't touch that big barn space....only if you stood next to the stove did you feel any heat. Too high a ceiling pitch, too much cold air coming in etc.

Kevin  

Kevin, you must have done something wrong. :D ;D I had a double barrel Sotz in and industrial building I renter for my shop years ago. It was about 40 x 90'. That stove got so hot I couldn't operate my milling machine 20' away because the radiant heat about set my clothes on fire. :D I once made the mistake of filling it with cedar shingles I was tearing off a garage roof. That thing took off in such a way that it nearly danced across the floor. I had to box it in with pallet jacks QUICK before it ripped the chimney off. Learned my lesson.

 One secret I use to heat my shop, and nearly every shop I have had is a ceiling fan. I have run mine 24/7 for 40 years and it keeps the heat moving around and breaks up thermal barriers. With the wood stove in a large space it is critical to keeping my heat you generate uniformly spread, and it's cheap. In the years I never ran heat in the shop, it kept the building from freezing unless the temp stayed at or below zero for 5 days or more. Ceiling fans are worth their weight and power use for sure.

Quote from: Al_Smith on November 10, 2022, 05:26:39 PM
My bud Dave who is one of the experts nation wide on Corvettes and Camaros  has a 60 by 100 shop he heats with used crankcase oil .He can store about 4,000 gallons which is where my crankcase oil goes .Takes me a couple of years to get a drum full .

Better have a good supply chain. They do a good job but they need a healthy supply to keep going. And it's got to be clean used. Contaminated oil causes problems 

I stepped down to the single barrel after the first year with a double. It was also a creosote maker. I think the door part of that kit has been through at least 5 barrels as it has travelled from job to job. With a couple of sections of flue it was better than an open burn barrel even outside. A grease drum with a flattened top in a school bus with a Sotz door is a camper special. I followed a tree planting buddy driving to the next site with the stove going for heat. I've split many cords with their monster maul.

I am using my outdoor wood furnace for heat in my 30'x40' shop.  The fella I bought the furnace from threw in an old heat exchanger.  I was buying a piece of wood working equipment from another guy who had a bunch of squirrel cage fans who gifted me two of them.  So I am coming up with a plan for some duct work and blowers.

@Rusticretreater, your shop is similar in size to mine. No need for a bunch of duct work.  I just constructed similar to a modine heater out of plywood, a squirrel cage fan, a water to air exchanger, and a couple fiberglass filters on each side. It just sits on the floor in the corner. It has kept my shop toasty warm for many years in the UP of Michigan via a wall mounted thermostat.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10134/image0_-_Copy_281129.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1668142941)

Nifty.  I have been checking out cabinet designs too.

My shop will be split in two parts, both 20x30.  One side is the garage and the other the woodworking shop.  I will be building a wall to separate the two sections. Sawdust is certainly not needed in my garage.  

As there will only be one heat exchanger and a wall with only a doorway as an internal damper, I figured I needed a small amount of ductwork to to move things to the other side of the wall.  The squirrel cage fans would move it along well.

I suppose I could incorporate it into the wall when I build it, but I need to get up and running.  I also have a crowded shop in 20x30, so a floor cabinet is ruled out at this point.

 I'd go with a air to air heat exchanger (mini split), they both heat and cool and run cheap.     Steve

My dad had a single barrel "Yukon special " in his garage .That thing would would put out the heat .In winter he'd go out and start the fire then go back in the house and drink coffee for half an hour .Over the next 20 years he did total rebuilds on at least a dozen CJ model Jeeps the very last one I now own made from parts of three  .The last three winters we have not got enough snow to even bother with it to plow snow .

I have a 21 x 15 shop in a detached barn/garage building.  When I had it built, I spec'd water, 200 amp service, cable and phone lines looking ahead to when I would retire and spend much more time out there.  I also made that the location for my whole house generator and buried a 300 gal propane tank to fuel that.  The builder convinced me, since I already had a source of propane, to install a wall mounted propane heater for the shop.  MISTAKE!  I got the smallest one and it is still overkill.  Takes up about 7 square feet of wall space and I still have to deal with suffocating in there in the summer with our high heat/humidity.
I am going to get the mini-split as mentioned by several others.  These things are available now direct to DIYers.  Electricity is a far better deal right now in my area compared to propane anyway.
Just my humble opinion!

I think I've mentioned my setup in at least one other spot, if not a couple. 

I, initially, was just interested in heating the garage, while I sat out there to smoke in the winter. Then I built a 22ish x13ish shop. Garage is insulated in the ceiling but no where else. Shop is insulated in the walls and half the open cathedral roof but there are big, 8x4 sheet of plywood sized bifolding doors that create a 15 foot wide opening that aren't insulated and only somewhat draft free, the top of the doors is basically open to daylight, the rest is sealed closed with thick rubber.

I started with a little garbage can looking propane Mr. Heater. It's ok, but loud and doesn't heat quickly. Too expensive for not enough heat. 

Next, I went to a Mr. Heater that has the cage and burner on top that you attach to the top of a grill tank. It has 3 power settings and does pretty well to get the shop warm, but with the frost on the tank you can dang near watch the propane run out. Sitting next to it gets too hot. Quiet, hot, still expensive with propane. On low a 20 lb. tank lasts about 15 hours or so. 

Next was a standard classic Kerosene heater. Turn her on and let her warm up. Slow heat but nice when it's not too cold, nice since you can leave it be. Kerosene is expensive but this thing seems to sip it so it doesn't feel as bad as running to the store for a new tank of propane all the time. Quiet and lovely but not hot enough to warm the room effectively if cold.

Then I'd been shopping for a torpedo heater. I couldn't talk myself into 150 bucks for a cheap one or 300 for the one I wanted so I kept looking. We happened upon one at a yard sale for 20 bucks and it was a risk I couldn't afford to not take. It had some fuel in it already and I had to take some stuff apart and knock some dust off, then bend a little metal to allow the fan to work, but after that it fired right up. Loud as the dickens. Warm as the dickens. Also seems to sip fuel but that may be because I only allow it to run for maybe a half hour to take all the cold out before I turn on the classic kerosene heater. 

So, my solution is that combo, for now. Torpedo heater to remove the cold, kerosene circle heater thing to maintain. I've been pleased with that. 

I'm curious to know if the heaters posted by Walnut Beast use propane as quickly as my other propane heaters. It'd be easy enough to run a hose from our propane tank but if it uses propane as quickly as the small ones I don't know that I like that. And, looking at the website those units appear to be beyond my heating budget just for the unit itself. What, 1000 bucks? 

RC if you put the fan and heat exchanger near the dividing wall, you can have little duct work and just a open and close vent on each side of the wall.

Uhhhh.......you CAN'T run a fuel driven, fan torpedo heater INSIDE a closed space like a garage! That's a carbon monoxide death sentence. Like running a propane heater in a camper without fresh air coming in. They find whole families dead from that scenario every yr.

You use either ventless infrared heaters or have a VENT for exhaust fumes.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong?

Kevin

i think we are talking Mini split vs outside wood boiler with a piped heat exchanger.  

You're right about non vented spaces Kevin. Friend used to use one of those torpedo heaters for his garage/hangout. When you walked in there the kero fumes were pretty obvious. I'd usually say something along the lines of "you got to open the door now and then and air this out" and I'd leave it open til he hollared at me to close it. And when it came on it was like sitting on the deck of an aircraft carrier. When he retired he switched to a pellet stove as he knew he'd be spending a lot more time there. Even admitted I was right, and he's one of those types that NEVER admits he's wrong. :)

CO is colorless and odorless.  so, it is good that some of the unburned fuel burns our eyes and gets us to seek fresh air.  Not to be confused with a "gas leak".  The former you may not know what hit you, especially if the cold is motivating you to persist.  The latter is an explosion risk.  We always get people in the ED who say they had a gas leak and want to be checked for carbon monoxide poisoning.  It is in the environment at low levels.  normal is 1 to 5% for non-smokers.  5 to 10% for smokers.  50% is fatal.  hemoglobin binds CO more strongly than Oxygen.  CO cannot be used as the terminal electron receptor in the mitochondria for cellular metabolism.  you suffocate.  oxygen is not flammable but required for fuel to burn.  CO is flammable as it is basically incomplete burned carbon fuel.  Carbon dioxide is not flammable and in fact can extinguish a fire.  You will also smother in a room full of CO2 but for a different reason, lack of oxygen.  many newer furnaces and boilers are so efficient they produce mostly CO2 (completely burned fuel) and not much CO.  so, a chimney leak is less serious but not worth taking any chances.  be safe.

Doc, that's a seriously good post there. :)

Doc, you probably passed chemistry, I've been told if propane is burning with a blue flame it is producing H2O and CO2 only. If the flame is yellow it is producing CO. ?

I posted elsewhere that I am changing from oil to propane heat for the house. My HVAC dude said the new furnace will bring combustion air in and exhaust air out through PVC pipe, said the newer propane furnaces remove so much heat that the plastic is fine for exhaust.

This is the best way I can respond to heating your shop.

Please do not be dumb like me.

A public service announcement from someone not so smart. in General Board (forestryforum.com) (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=99970.0)

 A modern condensing furnace/burner unless the heat exchanger develops a leak should be very safe regarding CO .If it does leak most likely the lose of pressure differential would shut the process down due to the safety circuits built with in  the system .This I do know from experience if the unit is not level and the exhaust vent has a down draft they do shut down .About drove me bonkers late last fall installing mine .First one I ever worked on .
My advice to the DIY folks like myself is to read the installation instructions about 3 times before you even start the job .BTW it works like a  charm  8)

Quote from: gspren on November 12, 2022, 08:03:09 PM
I posted elsewhere that I am changing from oil to propane heat for the house. My HVAC dude said the new furnace will bring combustion air in and exhaust air out through PVC pipe, said the newer propane furnaces remove so much heat that the plastic is fine for exhaust.

Yes, when they get over 92% efficient or whatever, they use PVC for the venting. Some of those pulse furnaces are close to 98% efficient.

And for the record, LP gas as long as it doesn't freeze, has a higher BTU content factor than natural gas.....by a long shot. But LP is more expensive and why natural gas wins in the long run....if you have it available. We didn't on the farm so we had a thousand gal tank of LP.

Owner of the propane company came out one day. In the course of the conversation, after trying to get me to become a Shriner, he said they made a LOT of money on those old 60's/70's/80's, 65%(or less) efficient forced air furnaces. I bet he did and I think I saw a tear in his eye just talking about it.

Kevin

Quote from: Crusarius on November 12, 2022, 08:17:10 PM
This is the best way I can respond to heating your shop.

Please do not be dumb like me.

A public service announcement from someone not so smart. in General Board (forestryforum.com) (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=99970.0)

Had a very similar experience in my youth. Ran outa gas in rural CO in the middle of winter. Being young, dumb and full of c**.....I lit a little propane heater inside and put it on the passenger floor. The dawg and I went to sleep on the bench seat(pickup). I woke up in the middle of the night for seemingly no reason. Couldn't find my flashlight(wanted to see the clock on the dash), tired to light a cig lighter....wouldn't light and I knew the lighter was OK. Rolled the window down a bit and she lit. My oxygen level in that truck was that LOW!

I would have easily died in my sleep(and the dawg) if for whatever reason, I hadn't woken up. As I said earlier, you hear about whole families that died in their sleep this way, like in a camper. Plus, there's always the idiot that brings a gasoline/diesel generator inside the house because they've lost power and kills everyone from the exhaust fumes.    

Kevin

Quote from: Don P on November 12, 2022, 07:42:27 PM
Doc, you probably passed chemistry, I've been told if propane is burning with a blue flame it is producing H2O and CO2 only. If the flame is yellow it is producing CO. ?

When you adjust the flame on any gas appliance, you want the base flame blue with the tips of the flames licking slightly whitish/yellowish.

Kevin

Don, just be careful to not rely on that too much.  but yes, the blue flame is more complete burning and byproducts are CO2 and H2O.  As mentioned, you may get O2 low enough to have poor ration of oxygen to fuel.  carbon monoxide detectors we think of in our house, but why not the shop.  Also, you can get a pulse oximeter for 20 bucks at Walmart and other pharmacies.  But remember they measure the % of hemoglobin that has a conformational change indicating it is saturated.  Both O2 and CO will make it change the same and read as saturated.  so, at 50% carbon monoxide (fatal) it still reads at 100%.  so, they are not specific for oxygen.  

Room air is 21% oxygen.  the binding of CO is reversable but stronger than oxygen.  In chemistry things are constantly binding and releasing.  All the gases we breath dissolve in the plasma portion of our blood.  Hemoglobin is a protein located in the RBCs and when it binds a gas molecule, it is taken out of the plaza allowing more to be absorbed.  so, it is based on a concentration gradient.  also, O2 is released at the tissue level preferentially and CO2 absorbed.  CO2 is released in the lungs to cross into the alveoli and be ventilated out as a waste product.  The CO does have a stronger binding relative to Oxygen.  so, you can get better over time at 21%.  but it is faster at 100% oxygen.  the non-rebreather mask has the plastic reservoir bag and one-way valves.  they however fit poorly and most entrain also some room air.  one size fits no-one.  

our very efficient boiler uses pvc as well for intake and exhaust.  we found water on the floor and realized the outgoing 4-inch flu had broken.  It went up through the upper floor and attic space in the wall cavity.  Our tech, whom we trust, said it is not like and old fashion furnace that was not efficient.  He was not that concerned about carbon monoxide, and we all felt fine.  

I think doing work in an austere environment we try to power through and get to the point of no return.  If you are taking a chance, be sure to take breaks in fresh air.  If it is your shop, get a carbon monoxide detector.  a smoke detector would go off all the time in mine, but the CO detectors should not.

thanks for the positive comments.  this is a favorite topic of mine.  let me know if you have more questions.  It can get really deep.  a question in bio chem was how to make the stick that goes in your mouth to breath under water (think Bond, James Bond!), and the answer was you need something to bind O2 from the water to breath in and attach to the hemoglobin.  another pit fall of the oximeter is if you are anemic, the sat will read higher, as it looks at what % of Hg is saturated, not how much hemoglobin you have.  but you have less buckets carrying O2 even though they are full.  also, if you get Laughing gas at the dentist, they have to also give O2.  if you breath 100% nitrous oxide, you can suffocate as there is no Oxygen.  At my dentist one time the O2 tank ran out and the safety equipment failed to shut down the system.  My hands went numb, and I looked dark red and blue at the same time.  That got my dentists attention.

It is amazing any of us are still alive! 8) :D :) :snowball:

What's the address that we should send our tuition checks to? :)

Been heating my shop with waste oil for 7 years with a 210,000 btu Lannair heater. Since my oil supply is 3X what I can burn the shop heat is set at 65. The heater has been almost flawless. Repairs have been one fan motor about $100. It does require attention to cleaning. 
Somebody mentioned wood heat in a shop and as they found out, (as did I years ago) nobody will insure it. 

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 11, 2022, 05:17:47 PMUhhhh.......you CAN'T run a fuel driven, fan torpedo heater INSIDE a closed space like a garage!

I'm assuming this is at me? I'm not doubting you but I've run my heaters out in the shop, with a carbon monoxide detector, and not had any issues. 

I also don't understand what the difference is between running the classic circle style kerosene heater vs. a kerosene torpedo heater inside? I'm not trying to be disrespectful of the knowledge you guys have, I just thought what I was doing was, essentially, safe. I probably don't need any more brain damage than already exists, so I'd like to know if I'm CO2'ing myself to death, but wouldn't my detector be screaming? It's new with new batteries.

The torpedo is how I almost suffocated myself. The combustion is not as clean as some other options. I can't speak for newer machines because the one I was using was old. But after my incident I decided I did not want to take a risk.

If you are looking for a combustion heater for any space, I do highly recommend the Val-6 line of heaters. they are pricey but work extremely well.

Either way, make sure you have good fresh air coming into the space. I also recommend multiple CO detectors at different heights in the shop.

low oxygen or high carbon dioxide can give you a warning with a feeling of shortness of breath.  Like going to Pikes peak when you are from Ks.  If you are older and with other health conditions, you could have a stroke or heart attack as a result.  think running up a hill and being short of breath, and you keep on going.  carbon monoxide will make you unaware and put you to sleep.  the worst is to go to sleep with a heater and whole families just does not wake up.  

Quote from: aigheadish on November 14, 2022, 08:17:00 AM
I also don't understand what the difference is between running the classic circle style kerosene heater vs. a kerosene torpedo heater inside? I'm not trying to be disrespectful of the knowledge you guys have, I just thought what I was doing was, essentially, safe. I probably don't need any more brain damage than already exists, so I'd like to know if I'm CO2'ing myself to death, but wouldn't my detector be screaming? It's new with new batteries.

There is a difference between Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide. Both can kill you.
Your heater can be burning efficiently and correctly and producing NO Carbon Monoxide at all. You CO alarm will be silent. All the while the heater is consuming the oxygen in the room and replacing it with carbon dioxide.
It doesn't matter whether your brain doesn't get oxygen because your blood was tied up carrying CO instead, or just because there isn't any O2 in the room.  Neither one is good.
All combustion heaters consume oxygen when they operate. They should never be used in an enclosed space.

Quote from: aigheadish on November 14, 2022, 08:17:00 AM

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 11, 2022, 05:17:47 PMUhhhh.......you CAN'T run a fuel driven, fan torpedo heater INSIDE a closed space like a garage!

I'm assuming this is at me? I'm not doubting you but I've run my heaters out in the shop, with a carbon monoxide detector, and not had any issues.

I also don't understand what the difference is between running the classic circle style kerosene heater vs. a kerosene torpedo heater inside? I'm not trying to be disrespectful of the knowledge you guys have, I just thought what I was doing was, essentially, safe. I probably don't need any more brain damage than already exists, so I'd like to know if I'm CO2'ing myself to death, but wouldn't my detector be screaming? It's new with new batteries.

I think if you read the instructions on your fuel driven, fan operated torpedo heater, it should tell you not to use this type heater in an enclosed space like a house/garage. In a warehouse or a huge barn space etc, they are used a lot.  Kerosene heaters are slightly different because they are not fan driven and using up as much air. But again, whatever fuel driven heater you use, you need an equal amount of fresh air coming in for the air that is used by the heating device.

And you certainly can't use a generator or any kind of small engine inside, whether it's gas or diesel.

Kevin

Right on. Thanks fellas. A nap sounds nice but probably not in this way. 

Quote from: Big_eddy on November 14, 2022, 12:17:34 PM
There is a difference between Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide. Both can kill you.
Your heater can be burning efficiently and correctly and producing NO Carbon Monoxide at all. You CO alarm will be silent. All the while the heater is consuming the oxygen in the room and replacing it with carbon dioxide.
It doesn't matter whether your brain doesn't get oxygen because your blood was tied up carrying CO instead, or just because there isn't any O2 in the room.  Neither one is good.
All combustion heaters consume oxygen when they operate. They should never be used in an enclosed space.

Thank you.....I didn't want to try and explain between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide poisoning. YES, both can kill you. When you use up all the oxygen in the room you have an abundance of carbon dioxide left. As I said, even with kerosene heaters and camping propane heaters that won't kill you with carbon monoxide, they will kill you if they use most of the available oxygen up in the room.

So when we're making recommendations for a SHOP, something permanent would be a vented heater(as in a vent going through the roof) or a rated ventless heater like infrared heaters of some type. As long as they are rated for an enclosed space and approved as such.

Let's try to get away from recommending torpedo heaters, kerosene heaters and the like for something permanent in an enclosed space like a shop.

Kevin

I ran in-floor from my house to shop. I have a wood boiler in the house. I would guess it uses a extra cord or so of wood. The shop is 16' x 28' and well insulated. 

I bought a 4 year old single phase 6 ton gas pack (propane heat and air conditioning in single outside unit) for $500 for an HVAC guy I saw at the store one day.  He had it in his little trailer that it completely filled up.

He said he was called to recover the refrigerant out of it so they could dispose of it from a commercial building they were tearing down.  They said they'd give it to him if he took it.  He had hurt himself loading it, and didn't want to unload it.  I asked him what he'd take for it, and that I had a tractor a mile up the road I could unload it with.

He wanted a grand for it, but I told him I had 500 in cash in my pocket (knowing that he had just told me it had been given to him), but didn't want to put more than that in something I might not need for a while.

It's still under a shed here, but I haven't done anything with it yet.  I have a shop to put it on, but it's too full of stuff to get out of the way to use it yet.  On the to-do list.  It's about 4x5 x four feet tall, and doesn't look like it's even been used other than the paint weathered slightly.

Not to be a broken record with this but what am I missing with the standard kerosene heater? We grew up with them running constantly in the house and I know that's a fairly common practice. Were we drowning ourselves without knowing? 

The instructions say to open the window with them running. 

it is a risk.  I use a propane catalytic heater in a tent that is a 4-season tight tent.  my heater has a low O2 cutoff and has never done so.  I turn it on at night to get up and go pee and for an additional 5 minutes getting back in the bag.  It gets too hot to let it run at the lowest setting.  In a drafty house fine, in a small, confined space not as much.  you may have done well, but any hydrocarbon fuel that is combusted to make heat also has waste products.  there are ventless products.  there is also a risk of fire.  you have to be careful and not assume you will always get away with it.  think of all the close calls we have all had, and you caught it just in time.  as we get older, or for people less aware, it can be a tragedy instead of a lesson learned.

to clarify, this is while camping in January and February.  the other issue is we get more comfortable as the number of times with no consequences goes up.  after 100 times, there is still a chance at number 101.
cold, hunger, and thirst, make us animals do desperate things. :)

Not that I hope to influence anyone's use of old crankcase oil for heat: 
We were talking about that subject a few years back and one of our sons who's what you can safely call an "atmospheric scientist" said he'd rather not breath even a small amount of the carcinogens that will result from that burn. FWIW, this same son makes fun of the EPA.,
 I know of several tire/mechanical repair shops who burn used oil and have known a few who used it in a home shop. It's also true they get lots more fresh air than they want sometimes, as the overhead doors go up and down. Some here in KY who heat a shop with coal will have a drip tank above the coal stove that uses crankcase oil onto the coal fire.
It costs me to use electric heat in my shop but also no longer have a wood pile to keep up there or in my way. Plus, the insurance folks are kept away, as I mentioned earlier. 
 

The only thing in that oil that is not in the coal that I know of is the bearings which nowadays doesn't amount to much? They were dripping it and burning yellow, incomplete oxidation, get some air in there and it'll burn clean and blue.

What are everyone's thoughts and experiences with propane torpedo heaters? If I could get a small one cheap I think it would be great for melting the snow/ice out of the snowblowers for changing shear pins and before putting the blowers away, not worried about fumes as the big door would be open. 

I used one all day yesterday in a basement under construction.

Quote from: aigheadish on November 15, 2022, 06:25:26 AM
Not to be a broken record with this but what am I missing with the standard kerosene heater? We grew up with them running constantly in the house and I know that's a fairly common practice. Were we drowning ourselves without knowing?

I used to heat a lot with kerosene heaters. When the flame is adjusted properly, it's not so much carbon monoxide as it is carbon dioxide issues. If you have a drafty enclosure, you'll be fine. If your area is 'tight', it can consume enough oxygen that your carbon dioxide levels are dangerous.

Crack a window, crack a door....whatever.
 
Kevin

Quote from: gspren on November 15, 2022, 09:03:50 AM
What are everyone's thoughts and experiences with propane torpedo heaters? If I could get a small one cheap I think it would be great for melting the snow/ice out of the snowblowers for changing shear pins and before putting the blowers away, not worried about fumes as the big door would be open.

They're fine if you have PLENTY of fresh air exchange. They are designed to be used in big open spaces with lots of available oxygen. Or a space so open and big, nothing else practical would heat it. Used in construction a LOT in colder months because nothing else will heat an unfinished space. Also, we used to put them under frozen mobile homes and just leave them until the piping unthawed.....then remove them and repair the freeze damage.

But the intent of this thread was to recommend a permanent, safe way to heat a small enclosed garage space. Just because folks have used torpedo heaters in the past in enclosed spaces and lived to tell the tale, doesn't mean anyone should recommend them for a smaller, enclosed space.

Kevin  

when I helped build houses, we had a 100# propane cylinder and this tall round heater.  It sounded like a jet engine but was upright and not forced air like the torpedo style.  had an igniter but no other electronics.  we would light it to melt the snow off the plywood on the roof so we could get up there and shingle.  we also got a slug of peppermint schnaps to help "keep us warm" on the roof.  no wonder kids don't know how to do stuff. :D   :snowball:

Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2022, 11:16:50 AM
when I helped build houses, we had a 100# propane cylinder and this tall round heater.  It sounded like a jet engine but was upright and not forced air like the torpedo style.  had an igniter but no other electronics.  we would light it to melt the snow off the plywood on the roof so we could get up there and shingle.  we also got a slug of peppermint schnaps to help "keep us warm" on the roof.  no wonder kids don't know how to do stuff. :D   :snowball:

We used those too.....I forgot now what we called them. Yep, sat there with their own 100lb propane bottle....unsecured of course.:D

I haven't seen one of those for decades....OSHA probably has a fit about them and no doubt they ignited a few houses because of idiot users.

Kevin

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134720.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541642)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134650.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541641)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134627.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541645)
 

This is my 8'×12' saw shed I built with a attic for storage. Large triple pane sliding window on the south wall over the work bench.
Fully insulated top to bottom with a 100amp service with under ground cable to the house's 200 amp service.
I heat the shop with two 4 ft baseboard heaters each with their own wall thermostat. We get very cold long winters here with -40 -50 below sometimes weeks on end.
For the last few years I have left one of the base boards turned off and it's still toasty warm inside with down to -40 below outside.
Can't beat the convenience of electricity.  Our Manitoba Hydro electricity is actually cheaper then natural gas or propane.

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 15, 2022, 12:31:15 PM

Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2022, 11:16:50 AM
when I helped build houses, we had a 100# propane cylinder and this tall round heater.  It sounded like a jet engine but was upright and not forced air like the torpedo style.  had an igniter but no other electronics.  we would light it to melt the snow off the plywood on the roof so we could get up there and shingle.  we also got a slug of peppermint schnaps to help "keep us warm" on the roof.  no wonder kids don't know how to do stuff. :D   :snowball:

We used those too.....I forgot now what we called them. Yep, sat there with their own 100lb propane bottle....unsecured of course.:D

I haven't seen one of those for decades....OSHA probably has a fit about them and no doubt they ignited a few houses because of idiot users.

Kevin

Have been called salamanders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_heater

I'd bet it was a propane convection heater, I think mine is ~80,000 btu's. You'll blow through a hundred pounder a week on a jobsite. Which is about on par for gas however you do it. That is not a tight shop tho.
The double burner Mister Buddy heaters are 30,000 btu's for comparison. i guess these are the bigger brother and a little safer as far as tipover and exposed flame.

I sort of heat my (small) three car garage/shop with a 9K BTU propane heater, I say sort of because it's only 9K BTU and I have to crack the 8' door so I get some air exchange which in turn makes it colder so I'm fighting a loosing battle.  The garage is fairly tight with good gaskets around both doors, the only draw out of the garage is when the on-demand water heater kicks on, it draws its combustion air from the garage and exhausts outside.  I'd love to find a better method but the little heater allows me to move it around where I'm working.  An overhead heater is a no-go, the ceiling is only 9.5' and I can't afford to loose any more head room.

If I haven't mentioned it I have either a 4 panel or 5 panel original "Ember Glow " catalytic  heater mounted on a cart with a 20 pound propane cylinder which makes it portable .I think it's around 35,000 btu .Because it's radiant it's line of sight .On the rare occasion I have to turn a wrench on something when it's cold enough to make the brass monkey in pain I use it. I dispise cold weather ,call me a wuss if you want .FWIW I've been on the polar ice cap and did not like it .Some people cut their firewood about this time of the year--I'm done with it .Time for warming by the fire and enjoying my long awaited retirement . 8) 8)

Quote from: Spike60 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:37 AM
Rather than hijack Dave's "groundie" thread, thought a new one would be a way to pick up on the shop heat diecussion started over there. Interesting to hear how others set up their "happy places" as Tom calls them.

My home shop is small at 12'x16'. Only need to work on saws, (or my snow blower), so that's plenty of room for me. Well organized, well lit, decent stereo. Especially nice out there when it's snowing out.

For heat I've been using 2 methods. 18,500 Kero-Sun, and last year I got one of those twin burner heaters that mount on the barbecue tanks. Of the 2, the propane deal is the better one. 2 burners X 3 setting means 6 different heat settings. Only need to heat it when I'm actually out there, so either gadget works fine. Together, they quicken the warm up time, and extend the temp range if needed.

Considered a woodstove when I built it, but it would take up too much room in my little shop, and it would take it up all year long. Those other heaters can be tucked under the bench and out of the way when not needed. And since I'm not heating it unless I'm actually out there, I'd be out there in the cold, getting the wood fire going. With the propane or Kero heaters, I can light one and then go back into the house for 20-30 minutes and let the place warm up.

Never been a need to maintain the temp like Tom might with ongoing wood working projects, and I could go a week or 2 without going out there at all. 15 gallons of Kero traditionally got me through a season. That's gonna change with retiring from the store though. And I much prefer the newer propane heater, so we'll see how she goes cost wise.

Never did the fridge for obvious reasons, and the house is only 100' away. Sticking beers in the snow works pretty good.  :)

Not sure if your shop is insulated or not. If it is, at 12x16, an electric overhead heater would do the job. 1500-2000w would work.

for any new construction, I would put a few hundred buck of pex in the floor if it is to be heated.  you do not have to use it, but radiant heat is silent, no moving air, recovers quickly after a door is open, melts ice and snow off vehicles fast, and warm if you have to lay on the floor to work on something.  the water only needs to 100° or so, and you can use a tiny water heater or on demand heater.

i set mine at 50°, then have a wood fire when I am working out here.  60° is a good working temp.  hotter near the stove obviously, so if I go outside to do something, a minute or two by the stove and my hands and body are all warmed up.

Doc, I've been contemplating radiant heat, though I don't think I can afford it. I've got a concrete floor that I assume I'd have to overlay with some foam insulation, then run the radiant, then put another floor over the top. I wouldn't hurt me terribly to lose 4 or so inches of height if that's what it took, but my guess is that system is in the $1500-2K range, even for my small space. I'd love to try some baseboard heaters but all my baseboard walls are covered with benches or shelving and stuff. 

Quote from: beenthere on November 15, 2022, 04:27:15 PM

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 15, 2022, 12:31:15 PM
We used those too.....I forgot now what we called them. Yep, sat there with their own 100lb propane bottle....unsecured of course.:D

I haven't seen one of those for decades....OSHA probably has a fit about them and no doubt they ignited a few houses because of idiot users.

Kevin

Have been called salamanders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_heater

There is some confusion in terminology along with geography. In TX where I did a lot of new construction, they called torpedo heaters 'salamanders'. It made sense to me then because they were low to the floor and long.

Kevin

Quote from: doc henderson on November 16, 2022, 07:20:25 AM
for any new construction, I would put a few hundred buck of pex in the floor if it is to be heated.  you do not have to use it, but radiant heat is silent, no moving air, recovers quickly after a door is open, melts ice and snow off vehicles fast, and warm if you have to lay on the floor to work on something.  the water only needs to 100° or so, and you can use a tiny water heater or on demand heater.

i set mine at 50°, then have a wood fire when I am working out here.  60° is a good working temp.  hotter near the stove obviously, so if I go outside to do something, a minute or two by the stove and my hands and body are all warmed up.

Radiant heat is great because unlike forced air which just blows heat around, it heats all the objects in a room which in turn radiates heat out to the living space as well.

I do take exception to the idea that there is fast recovery with radiant heat. If you open a garage door with radiant heated floors, it takes a LONG time to recover.....this is a well known downside in comparison to forced air or fan driven heat that will bring you back to the set temp in minutes.

And this is not a practical discussion if you already have an existing concrete floor and don't wanna give up head space.

Kevin

I guess my comments were more for if you are building a new building and might heat it in the future, just put in the pex, then it is a option.  my floor over the basement of my shop got plywood.  then fastened down pex.  then just poured 1.5 inches of fiber reinforced concrete over that using sleepers to screed off of.  it heats up fine, 1 crack where it goes around a stairwell.  you can go all boiler if you want, but many in Ks get a small water heater and a circ. pump on a thermostat.  might get away with foil bubble wrap type insulation and a thin cap.  cost is an issue but that would be the cheapest if you want radian floor heat.  in a wood shop it is nice not to have filters to clog up like in forced air.  I should get a glycol cooling system for the summer.   :snowball:

I feel the comfort level goes back up quickly with radiant heat, like stepping into the sunshine.  i still prefer it to forced air for recovery time, even if the air temp takes a bit to get back up. :)

Quote from: HolmenTree on November 15, 2022, 02:48:14 PM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134720.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541642)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134650.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541641)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221115_134627.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668541645)
 

This is my 8'×12' saw shed I built with a attic for storage. Large triple pane sliding window on the south wall over the work bench.
Fully insulated top to bottom with a 100amp service with under ground cable to the house's 200 amp service.
I heat the shop with two 4 ft baseboard heaters each with their own wall thermostat. We get very cold long winters here with -40 -50 below sometimes weeks on end.
For the last few years I have left one of the base boards turned off and it's still toasty warm inside with down to -40 below outside.
Can't beat the convenience of electricity.  Our Manitoba Hydro electricity is actually cheaper then natural gas or propane.

Willard,
220volt(more efficient than 120volts) baseboard heaters work fine if you have the wall space and your electricity pencils out against natural gas or propane. But like aigheadish mentions, every inch of wall space in my garage is covered with either benches or shelving. I opted to load up my walls so that I can have clear space in the center.

Kevin

Quote from: doc henderson on November 16, 2022, 11:13:17 AM
I feel the comfort level goes back up quickly with radiant heat, like stepping into the sunshine.  i still prefer it to forced air for recovery time, even if the air temp takes a bit to get back up. :)

I had radiant heat in a garage once and have also helped install it a number of times because I was/am a plumber. The customers were unanimously unhappy with the recovery time after opening a garage door. In fact it tempered their disposition about opening the garage door;instead of doing it when they wanted to and needed to, they'd make a big production out of it and yelled at anyone considering opening their garage doors.

I have about a 23' x 23' shop I'm in the process of bringing heat to now. So stay tuned and there will be pics. Going to be natural gas, overhead heat. Haven't fully decided on the exact heater yet. Probably be around 30,000BTU's with a fan, but also a millivolt stat so I can have heat if I lose power.

There is also electric floor heat. I've seen this done in existing bathrooms with a thin pour over. But like radiant water heat, if there is ever a corruption in the system, you have no choice but to abandon it.

Kevin  

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 16, 2022, 11:15:21 AM
Willard,
220volt(more efficient than 120volts) baseboard heaters work fine if you have the wall space and your electricity pencils out against natural gas or propane. But like aigheadish mentions, every inch of wall space in my garage is covered with either benches or shelving. I opted to load up my walls so that I can have clear space in the center.

Kevin

I'd like to hear more about the efficiency of 240V vs. 120V electric base board heaters.  I understand you can use 14ga romex feeding 15A to bank of 3600 total watts 240V base board heaters where you'd have to run 10ga @ 30A for 120V heaters to get the same wattage.  If memory serves me correctly, the inefficiencies of electric appliances is heat.

In my single phase system my 220V is two 110V legs.  so not sure how much more or less efficient it is.  getting the same amps and watts for the voltage.  in the stated application.  i agree energy lost in a system is usually heat, noise or light.  It is good if one of those is what you want! :)

I would bet a stack of money on it hands down. You could go to any big farmers machine shop, big diesel shops, trucking companies and your not going to find very many forced air units............ In the smaller office areas yes.

https://www.glradiant.com/2019/01/29/infrared-radiant-vs-forced-air/ (https://www.glradiant.com/2019/01/29/infrared-radiant-vs-forced-air/)

https://spaceray.com/residential-garage-outdoor-living-heating/residential-radiant-heating/
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/B3114FDF-957A-467A-BD7D-35DDD60D935D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1668626266)
  (https://spaceray.com/residential-garage-outdoor-living-heating/residential-radiant-heating/)

WB
I've been in several in WI, and other northern states which have all been waste oil forced air heaters. 
But have not been in 'em all, so won't take your bet.  ;)

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221116_144328.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668631635)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21589/20221116_144416.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1668631635)
 

I definitely didn't cut corners wiring my little shop. I got a breaker for every wall plug.
100amp 120/240V service with two 4 foot 15amp breaker 120/240V baseboard heaters, each with it's own breaker and wall thermostat. 
A 40 amp 125/250V welding plug. Also a 15 amp 220V plug for a big knife grinder that I had plans for.

Anyone try or thinking about geothermal?

110, or 240, or 12 volt or 1.5 volt electric resistance heaters are all exactly the same efficiency.

Light bulbs, oil, ceramic, hot nails, whatever the flavor of the year is capitalizes on this. "Tell 'em this new way of resistance heating is more efficient". Next year rinse and repeat some "new" way and marketing is off to the races again.

Quote from: HolmenTree on November 16, 2022, 03:47:36 PMAnyone try or thinking about geothermal?

I'm thinking of a directional drill, to go under the road to my neighbours heating system. Tap into his geothermal on a dark and quiet night. 😉
He put major bucks into geothermal and is loving the results. Payback is in five more years, then he's laughing at the rest of us schmucks with natural gas furnaces.
His bottom line: if the water you're tapping into for the heating system is drinkable, then you're golden.
.
If the aquifer is hard water, the system will corrode early and give all sorts of problems. Winnipeg is in a climate area where the up-front costs are obscene, but the long term pay back is worth it.

Andries, there is car dealerships and a casino in The Pas northern Manitoba that are having great success today heating and cooling with geothermal done 30 years ago.

I remember them putting in a trench geothermal on one of Dad's jobs in the 70's but no idea how it did, that must have been a SEER1 :D . One of my clients did pretty much the same in the early 90's and they have been happy with it. My wifes folks used the canal out back.

Quote from: HolmenTree on November 16, 2022, 07:38:46 PM. . . having great success today heating and cooling with geothermal done 30 years ago.

I'll bet they've switched up to heat pumps and that it's all paid for itself more than twenty years ago.
Even if you're next door to Conawapa and Keeyask, that'll save some big $$$.
Nice saw shed Holmen . She looks tight!!

Quote from: Don P on November 16, 2022, 07:56:44 PM. . . my wifes folks used the canal out back. . . 

I was thinking of a heat pump and a closed loop mat in the lake at our camp. 
Don, d'you know if the in-laws used a pump-through exchanger or a closed loop? . . and did it work well for them?

Quote from: beenthere on November 16, 2022, 02:48:07 PM
WB
I've been in several in WI, and other northern states which have all been waste oil forced air heaters.
But have not been in 'em all, so won't take your bet.  ;)

That doesn't count 😂. Yes indeed they are popular! 

Regarding geothermal they work well if you have a  good source of clean water If not they do not .I went through two units with the second unit I replaced the compressor only to have the heat exchanger go bad .Both units are residing in my woods along with the other assortments of junk in case I need spare parts for  reinventing the wheel .Right now it's a 95 % efficient propane unit with a 13 seer air conditioner .Actually for heat at this time the wood stove is carrying that load and doing a real good job of it .

Andries, it did work well on the gulf coast. It was a salt water canal, I have no idea how it was set up.

Lots of options for heat. But for me, a simple extra block of wood in my outdoor boiler and my shop is toasty 24/7.  8)

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 10, 2022, 07:58:36 AM
I'm going with an infrared natural gas heater up on the wall....thermostat, millivolt driven so no power required. If I have gas, I have heat. It will also have a fan though as an option.

I love kerosene heaters and have used them for decades but the price of the K-1 fuel has driven most people away. The gas is passive;you just turn up the thermostat. These infrareds will run off off propane or natural gas.

One of the models I'm looking at has a bracket that attaches to a stud and the heater angles down. That's absolutely perfect for my garage back wall....no space given up.

Kevin  

Sorry if I missed it, but what brand and model did you end up choosing? Is the flame open to the workshop area or is it sealed off from that (I have a concern about all the sawdust my wife tends to just leave where it falls in her woodworking shop. I'm not sure under what conditions it might ignite - or even whether that is a concern or not).

Quote from: Andries on November 16, 2022, 09:02:51 PM

Quote from: Don P on November 16, 2022, 07:56:44 PM. . . my wifes folks used the canal out back. . .

I was thinking of a heat pump and a closed loop mat in the lake at our camp.
Don, d'you know if the in-laws used a pump-through exchanger or a closed loop? . . and did it work well for them?

I know one guy running pump-through from an artesian well (he likes it, electricity is cheap there) and another that is considering it.
Also helped with a horizontal trench closed-loop glycol install >10 years ago, still running strong. He has since installed grid tied solar because those heap pumps really suck the juice


Too many rocks here, just a wood stove ;D

We've been wrestling with this issue ourselves. My wife has a very well insulated woodworking/craft shop. It's 24'x26' with a 10' ceiling. The whole thing is insulated with 6" of spray foam insulation, so it's also tightly sealed.

We've been "temporarily" heating it for about 5 years now with two portable 1500 watt electric heaters. They do the job well most of the time. The one downside is that the recovery time with just those two operating is rather long. Since we keep the shop at 45˚ or so when not in use, she has to plan her use well in advance if she wants a warm shop. We do have a "Big Buddy" propane heater we use on occasion to speed up the warm-up process. We don't leave that running continually, since it adds too much moisture to the room unless we crack a couple windows.

We are trying to decide on a permanent heating installation. This is complicated by the fact that she is not good about keeping the shop cleaned up, so there is sawdust just about everywhere.

Considering:

• Cold Climate Heat Pump (pro: could provide AC in the summer. Cons: lowest temperature settings I've found are for about 55˚F - we'd like to turn down to +/- 45˚F when the shop is not in use, all of the sawdust is likely to clog the filter frequently - maybe mounting high on wall would help that?)
• Rinnai direct vent propane heater (pros: Has "freeze protect" mode which allows low temperature settings, we've been very happy with the one which heats the guest room over our garage. Con: sawdust clogging up the filter frequently?
• Some other propane fired heater - vented to outside. Not sure about an infrared type, or some other type of unit (would prefer something that did not have open flame inside the shop - so probably some sort of sealed combustion unit?)

We haven't really started the research yet, so this thread has been a big help. I like the idea of the heat pump for the efficiency, but some types of propane heaters can run even in a power outage, which has its advantages as well (we are in the middle of nowhere at the end of the utility line, so when it goes down, it tends to stay down till they fix the more populated areas first.)

I appreciate any further thoughts people may have.

Quote from: John Mc on November 17, 2022, 11:32:26 AM

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 10, 2022, 07:58:36 AM
I'm going with an infrared natural gas heater up on the wall....thermostat, millivolt driven so no power required. If I have gas, I have heat. It will also have a fan though as an option.

I love kerosene heaters and have used them for decades but the price of the K-1 fuel has driven most people away. The gas is passive;you just turn up the thermostat. These infrareds will run off off propane or natural gas.

One of the models I'm looking at has a bracket that attaches to a stud and the heater angles down. That's absolutely perfect for my garage back wall....no space given up.

Kevin  

Sorry if I missed it, but what brand and model did you end up choosing? Is the flame open to the workshop area or is it sealed off from that (I have a concern about all the sawdust my wife tends to just leave where it falls in her woodworking shop. I'm not sure under what conditions it might ignite - or even whether that is a concern or not).

I have a couple of places to call yet and then decide. I'll post more as I go along, weather permitting. The trench is the big deal right now....I didn't want to get a machine and rip all the roots up on that side of the 100yr old Maple tree. That tree does an incredible job of shading the house in the summer and keeping my AC costs down. But it's also scary in high wind storms.

Kevin

Quote from: Andries on November 16, 2022, 05:25:43 PM

Quote from: HolmenTree on November 16, 2022, 03:47:36 PMAnyone try or thinking about geothermal?

I'm thinking of a directional drill, to go under the road to my neighbours heating system. Tap into his geothermal on a dark and quiet night. 😉
He put major bucks into geothermal and is loving the results. Payback is in five more years, then he's laughing at the rest of us schmucks with natural gas furnaces.
His bottom line: if the water you're tapping into for the heating system is drinkable, then you're golden.
.
If the aquifer is hard water, the system will corrode early and give all sorts of problems. Winnipeg is in a climate area where the up-front costs are obscene, but the long term pay back is worth it.

My geothermal operates off a combo ground loop and pond loop. The pipes don't hold pond water nor ground water. It doesn't serve my shop next to the pond. My system was installed 1998, and I've bought one new puterized multi speed blower motor and one new home thermostat so far, knock on wood.

My trench was dug with a backhoe and narrow 12" bucket but could have been done in part, by a trencher if large enough. A narrow trench is unlikely to kill the maple?  My trench goes past a number of trees that are still there and seem OK but trench isn't right beside any trees either as not a great place to dig in big roots.  

In this area of Ohio it takes around 600-700 feet of ground loop per ton .My unit was 68,000 BTU which is around 6 ton meaning 4200 feet of loop .Thus I used one of my wells .Problem was it had a degree of sulfur .It would not have been a problem except Water Furnace sent me the wrong heat exchanger .Copper instead of cupro nickel .When it developed a leak it caused water to enter the compressor .When the smoke leaked out it never ran again . 
The first unit I got used and reengineered it which wasn't a big deal plus needed to install the duct work because the house was ceiling radiant heat .I got about 8 years out it .The second I got 9 years .Total cost ,savings plus installation cost  was about break even . 

Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian houses had radiant way back then, from the guy that said don't worry about insulating, heat's cheap  :D. What brought it to mind was that was before plastic, his radiant tubing in the slabs was copper. They didn't last long. Neat idea but not for the materials of the time. 

Quote from: Don P on November 19, 2022, 09:49:24 AM
Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian houses had radiant way back then, from the guy that said don't worry about insulating, heat's cheap  :D. What brought it to mind was that was before plastic, his radiant tubing in the slabs was copper. They didn't last long. Neat idea but not for the materials of the time.

We had radiant heat in our house growing up that was built in 1953. My dad never had a nickles worth of trouble with it and it was all copper piping. Still going strong when they sold the house in 1990. Probably Type K and all silver solder joints as it should be.

Saying they "didn't last long" is an absolute that's not true. They used copper tubing in floors for decades, long before plastic came about. If it didn't work out in most houses, radiant floor heat would have become extinct long before the advent of plastic tubing.

Kevin

Quote from: kantuckid on November 19, 2022, 08:26:49 AM
My geothermal operates off a combo ground loop and pond loop. The pipes don't hold pond water nor ground water. It doesn't serve my shop next to the pond. My system was installed 1998, and I've bought one new puterized multi speed blower motor and one new home thermostat so far, knock on wood.

My trench was dug with a backhoe and narrow 12" bucket but could have been done in part, by a trencher if large enough. A narrow trench is unlikely to kill the maple?  My trench goes past a number of trees that are still there and seem OK but trench isn't right beside any trees either as not a great place to dig in big roots.  

Doesn't really matter when you cut main roots in half if the trench is narrow or not. This trench is within five ft of the tree until it moves away from the tree. I only have to trench 18" down so I'm able to go above or below the big roots so far.

I've worked lots of construction jobs with trenching and trees around. Generally, the rule of thumb is the distance from the tree with your trench will determine if you damage/kill the tree. In this case, I don't have any choice but to go by close.
 
Kevin

QuoteFrank Lloyd Wright's Usonian houses had radiant way back then, from the guy that said don't worry about insulating, heat's cheap  (https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif). What brought it to mind was that was before plastic, his radiant tubing in the slabs was copper. They didn't last long. Neat idea but not for the materials of the time.

There were many construction ideas put into Frank Lloyd Wright homes that were not based on common sense, in general. At the Taliesan studio near Spring Green Wisconsin, the construction was a near disaster. Pilings and walls built with no foundation, just built up on bare soil. Roof rafters of 2x4 material on long spans. The list can go on and on. Re-builds were constant and ongoing. Wright would visit his site and leave minimum instructions for local carpenters to fashion his ideas scratched out on a piece of paper, then expect the work to be done on his next visit (from the tales of the locals and the staff).
So Wright's copper tubing was possibly just buried in concrete slab with no accommodation for expansion and contraction.
Happened to me on one copper pipe from my floor poured in 1967. Minor leak was fixed when a section of concrete floor was busted out in 2001. Other than that one issue, all has been fine since.
My folks bought a home in 1957 in Iowa that had in-floor heat and last I knew a few years ago, this home had no issues. The only issues were the controls built before their time of modern controls, had to be redesigned. Advanced for their time ('50 instrumentation), they monitored outside temps to pre-heat the floors (or stop heating) before the change in temperatures affected the home temps. Wish I had a picture of the control board with all the wires and dials and valves hooked up to an oil fired boiler. Controls filled a 4x8 sheet of plywood on one basement wall. But that house was very comfortable (or as comfortable as tile on concrete floors can be ;D).

Chances are those relay type controls could be replaced with a solid state control unit  that would fit in a shoe box .Over the years methods have certainly changed .I kind of cut my teeth on relays and vacuum tube electronics .These days about the only place you could buy many tubes is from e-bay .Mechanical relays have been replaced with solid state devices ,micro processors  and the list goes on .These days some of those devices I have to get on YouTube to figure out what they do .Before I retired it was changing at such a rapid pace even the engineers had a hard  time keeping up .

So one bit of sunshine in a bitterly cold two weeks now.....I bought a double element propane radiant heat system that attaches to the top of a 20lb propane tank(they say "only" use on top of a 20lb tank). Adjustable from 10,000BTU's to 30,000BTU's.

Holy cow.....I can't get closer to it than six ft when it's on HIGH. I had no idea these things could produce this much heat! Propane here is $3.99/gal and if I travel 40 miles to the Indian casino I pay $2.99. Doesn't pencil out because of the gas unless I had at least five tanks to fill. I have two.

But.....this will buy me TIME to finish setting up my garage in spite of the cold and I'll be able to pick my days to continue the ditch for natural gas.

Of course if you think about it, 30,000BTU heat output is a lot of heat in a 23' x 23' area....even un-insulated. The unit cost about $115 that goes on top of the propane tank.

On HIGH it will go 12hrs they say on a tank. I'm sure it can be turned down to at least MEDIUM once I get the space heated. I don't need the garage space @70F. 55-65F would be tops. I can work in that. ;D

I also bought five gallons of K1 for the kerosene heaters in the house, in the event of a blackout. $13.80/gal! Who are they kidding?? Why don't they just stop making it and let the medium die a painful death......wow. K1 is supposedly jet fuel without the additives for jet turbines....that's what I've always been told.

Kevin

Quote from: beenthere on November 19, 2022, 01:04:47 PM

There were many construction ideas put into Frank Lloyd Wright homes that were not based on common sense, in general. At the Taliesan studio near Spring Green Wisconsin, the construction was a near disaster. Pilings and walls built with no foundation, just built up on bare soil. Roof rafters of 2x4 material on long spans. The list can go on and on. Re-builds were constant and ongoing. Wright would visit his site and leave minimum instructions for local carpenters to fashion his ideas scratched out on a piece of paper, then expect the work to be done on his next visit (from the tales of the locals and the staff).
So Wright's copper tubing was possibly just buried in concrete slab with no accommodation for expansion and contraction.
Happened to me on one copper pipe from my floor poured in 1967. Minor leak was fixed when a section of concrete floor was busted out in 2001. Other than that one issue, all has been fine since.
My folks bought a home in 1957 in Iowa that had in-floor heat and last I knew a few years ago, this home had no issues. The only issues were the controls built before their time of modern controls, had to be redesigned. Advanced for their time ('50 instrumentation), they monitored outside temps to pre-heat the floors (or stop heating) before the change in temperatures affected the home temps. Wish I had a picture of the control board with all the wires and dials and valves hooked up to an oil fired boiler. Controls filled a 4x8 sheet of plywood on one basement wall. But that house was very comfortable (or as comfortable as tile on concrete floors can be ;D).

Those radiant heat installers in the 50's/60's knew what they were doing and there was sound engineering behind them. Sure the controls were cumbersome by today's standards, but easier enough to work on and replace. Ours was in its own closet with the expansion tank. Not being a plumber then, I can only remember a few visuals. Recirc pump had its own cachinka, cachinka sound. We started out with a buried propane tank and then switched over to natural gas. I wished I could remember more about that system.

I do know that no copper went into a slab like that without being top grade like Type K and the joints should have been silver soldered. It was that way in the 70's when I started my plumbing career in two and four pipe chill water/boiler heat commercial systems.

All that about Wright was true. His houses were money pits of the highest order to maintain and live in. My parents had a similar, but less famous architect in St.Louis(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bernoudy) design their house. It was all about the visual and integrating outside to inside for livability pleasure. Everything untreated wood in the Midwest. Eventually, the bugs ate the house and my dad spent a fortune saving it before selling. Use of glass and vast expanses was cool to grow up in though.....brick terraces/walls everywhere. Bernoudy studied under Wright and was famous in his own circles.  

Kevin

Real1, those propane tank attachment heaters are legit. I've got the single bubble style and that little thing does get screamy hot. That listed 12 hours feels like it goes much too fast, I bought 3 propane tanks and try to keep them full, it doesn't work out that well, though the heat is amazing. 

$13.80 for a gallon of K1 is bonkers! I thought the 6.30 or whatever I just paid for it was too much.

Quote from: aigheadish on November 21, 2022, 07:16:15 AM
Real1, those propane tank attachment heaters are legit. I've got the single bubble style and that little thing does get screamy hot. That listed 12 hours feels like it goes much too fast, I bought 3 propane tanks and try to keep them full, it doesn't work out that well, though the heat is amazing.

$13.80 for a gallon of K1 is bonkers! I thought the 6.30 or whatever I just paid for it was too much.

I'm sure it's the 'COVID gouge' like everything else. A gallon of Coleman white gas is hovering around $15 last time I looked. Have fun with that, hunters.

$3.49/gal for propane @the bulk plant here.....$3.99/gal at the Shell station. $2.99/gal on the Indian res. I'd need at least five tanks to fill to make that worthwhile.

Kevin

It's been a bit since I bought propane tanks. I think they've been running from 17-22 bucks when I see them. It's probably about time to get some refills, one of those things I like to have on hand. Like full fuel cans also. 

That sounds about right on the propane. The 20lb bottles run about 4.5 gal to fill when empty.

Kevin

Quote from: aigheadish on November 22, 2022, 06:55:33 AM
It's been a bit since I bought propane tanks. I think they've been running from 17-22 bucks when I see them. It's probably about time to get some refills, one of those things I like to have on hand. Like full fuel cans also.

I just paid $12.42 for a empty to full 20lb refill at Costco in Greenville.  They seem to have the best rate around, the Costco in Spartanburg is way closer but they don't have propane there.  The Uhaul place is an okay deal and not too far away but they won't answer the phone and half the time they don't have a qualified person to fill anything (they also fill propane powered vehicles, a certain pain if you're out and they don't have the right staff).  The ACE hardware up the road is third in line, the mostly young folks working there are the polar opposite of what I find at HD and lowes, they're knowledgable and they care.
I use only a propane heater in the garage, the BBQ and rarely the clam pot burner so I can easily get almost a year out of a 20lb bottle but some how I keep ending up with more, last count I have five floating around here.

 Around here the local Fleet and TSC are about 1/2 the price of most.  For the shop I'd get a mini split system. around 350 percent efficient and I think electric rates are way more stabile than propane.  Steve 

Propane gas tank size - dimensions and weight (size charts included) (size-charts.com) (https://size-charts.com/topics/propane-gas-tank-size/)

bigblockyeti- if I could find it for 12.42 I'd have like 10 tanks! I don't shop at Costco but maybe it'd worth it just for that, though it's on the opposite side of town from me. I usually find my best prices at Ace. In town, across the street from Ace, they appear to have a fill yourself operation? I had a hard time finding propane last year so I stopped by there but while it appeared to be an automated system to self fill I couldn't figure it out and no one seemed to be working at the time. It seemed fishy that you could self fill, so I'll have to stop by sometime when it seems open. 

I have our old bathroom scale in the shop.  we have 3 40# tank in our camper.  I can pull them and weigh them to help decide if I need to top them off before a trip.  any weight over the empty weight is gas.  you can convert weight (in excess of the tank dry weight) to gallons knowing the 4.2 pounds per gallon.

I'm in for 10 of those propane tanks at $12.42 too. :)

I just did the propane tank swap for $24. But.........it's directly across the street from my store, vs quite an out-of-way drive to a fill station. So, in my case the extra $12 is worth it.

Besides one 20 pounder on my gas grill and one in an "Ember Glow " heater  in my garage I think I have another 4 or 5 .Through my supplier it's $1.99 a gallon whatever that works out to . The grill uses about a tank full a year .When I get down to only two full tanks I fill them all up but that could be several years .

I might mention when the came out with the more modern external threads on the bottles they would not fill the older style .The way I skinned that cat was to turn in an old bottle and get a new bottle at the exchange stations that were every where .They never checked the valve style after a period of time . ;D 

I have about 6 including the BSA troop I am in charge of.  they do eventually loose paint, rust and leak.  TSC is 3.99 I think.  1 gallon = 4.2 pounds. so just under 10 gallons in a 40# bottle.  we used to refill with an adaptor our little and big buddy heater 1# bottles, but after a refill or two, they leak.  depends on how much you use and how often as to weather that works for you.  It seems we all have to get the adaptor and try it once.  often ends up not worth the time.

I've got one table top grill that uses the little bottles or the ones for a propane torch .I use it so seldom rather than buy the adaptor to refill them I just buy new ones .Fact to mention it I have a Coleman tent heater also that uses the little bottles .Where it's hiding at now I have not a clue .In a pinch it could probably heat one room with it but I never have .Before I forget I also have a Colemen cook stove that is propane plus the real old model that uses white gasoline .Have not  used either for a couple of decades and likely never will again .Those itty bitty little cook stoves would really put out the heat .

One of those big propane tank exchange companies got in a lot of trouble a few yrs ago. The favorable rate they were charging for exchange turned out to be due to the fact the bottles weren't completely full. I think it might have been that outfit that does the exchange @Home Depot.

In any event, make sure when you do a propane tank exchange that's it's 100% full.......read their fine print and take a pic of the agreement with your phone.

Kevin

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 23, 2022, 10:25:12 AM
One of those big propane tank exchange companies got in a lot of trouble a few yrs ago. The favorable rate they were charging for exchange turned out to be due to the fact the bottles weren't completely full. I think it might have been that outfit that does the exchange @Home Depot.

In any event, make sure when you do a propane tank exchange that's it's 100% full.......read their fine print and take a pic of the agreement with your phone.

Kevin

Some still do that, they changed the label to say 15 pounds.

I just this morning had a 30 pound bottle filled at a local Amish hardware store, $19.50

Quote from: Real1shepherd on November 23, 2022, 10:25:12 AM
One of those big propane tank exchange companies got in a lot of trouble a few yrs ago. The favorable rate they were charging for exchange turned out to be due to the fact the bottles weren't completely full. I think it might have been that outfit that does the exchange @Home Depot.

In any event, make sure when you do a propane tank exchange that's it's 100% full.......read their fine print and take a pic of the agreement with your phone.

Kevin

If it wasn't already stated, the reason that they don't fill them 100% is that most of the tanks are past certification and by not filling them all the way, they can get by without recertifying them. (maybe a little marketing fib too)  So always beware, the tank exchanges are only 15 lbs instead of 20lbs. 

I saw that at the store I work at. Came up as 20# on the register, but 15# on the tank. I told the boss about it. He made it look like I was in the wrong.  ???

At the trade in places I never paid attention to it because they were getting an old time cylinder and I was getting a new style. I was ahead of that game  .At the fill places I had an eye on the scales .The one I use now I get my buck 99 a gallon price  the same as my 500 gallon tank for the house .I doubt I use the entire thing this winter unless we get a "Siberian " express .--Call be stupid, I cut fire wood . 8)

a 20-pound container (bottle) should weigh 13.5# empty, so 33.5# full.  if it weighs 28.5# then it has only 15# of propane.

Quote from: ladylake on November 22, 2022, 03:23:34 PM
Around here the local Fleet and TSC are about 1/2 the price of most.  For the shop I'd get a mini split system. around 350 percent efficient and I think electric rates are way more stabile than propane.  Steve

Electric rates might be stable where you're at but that'a apparently not the case everywhere.

Look at Downstream's reply #6.
Added a couple of wood stoves in Firewood and Wood Heating (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=120746.msg1945738#msg1945738)

Quote from: jb616 on November 23, 2022, 11:26:59 AM
If it wasn't already stated, the reason that they don't fill them 100% is that most of the tanks are past certification and by not filling them all the way, they can get by without recertifying them. (maybe a little marketing fib too)  So always beware, the tank exchanges are only 15 lbs instead of 20lbs.

The marketing "fib" thing was what got them in trouble. That's why they have to state it now that you're getting 15 lbs instead of 20 lbs.

As far as getting newly certified bottles....I've seen people get bottles in those cages that were about to expire by date code. You could keep trying until you get fresher bottles and then go elsewhere.

Kevin

Quote from: bigblockyeti on November 24, 2022, 09:22:31 AM
Electric rates might be stable where you're at but that'a apparently not the case everywhere.

Look at Downstream's reply #6.
Added a couple of wood stoves in Firewood and Wood Heating (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=120746.msg1945738#msg1945738)

Gas and electric co here sent a notice out a few months ago that ALL rates would increase by 12%. No reason was given but implied COVID gouging.
 
Kevin

We hooked one up this week that will not shut off. I'm relying on the torpedo heater's valves until we use it and can send that exchange down the road, with sharpie arrows and "dead valve" on it. I've gotten several bottles I'm surprised they repainted and sent out. Also got a leaky oxygen bottle this year. QC  :-\

I don't leak test like maybe I should but that is scary Don, especially the oxygen one... 

Welp, this past few days in the sub-zero degree range has encouraged me to buy a heater... I went with the electric model here (https://a.co/d/09zcnt6), a Comfort Zone 7500W job for which I'll have to run power. I'm pretty sure it'll do better and heat more effectively for less money than I pay in propane or kerosene. I like the idea of keeping it on a thermostat when I feel like I'll be in the shop more, flip it on and let things warm up a bit. I guess we'll see. Many of the reviews on Cramazon suggest folks using it in similar ways as I will.

Quote from: jb616 on November 23, 2022, 11:26:59 AMIf it wasn't already stated, the reason that they don't fill them 100% is that most of the tanks are past certification and by not filling them all the way, they can get by without recertifying them. (maybe a little marketing fib too) So always beware, the tank exchanges are only 15 lbs instead of 20lbs.

From what I understand, you are not supposed to refill a tank at all if it's out of certification. The pressure in the tank does not change if it's filled to 15 vs 20 lbs. The tank swap places like to claim that it is for their customer's safety. The local propane dealer says that's BS: the only thing safer about a partial fill is the difference in the size of the explosion. (He does not fill small tanks, so has nothing to gain one way or the other.) I suppose it's possible he's wrong, but I believe him more than I believe the text on the tank swap labels that claim "For our customer's safety..."

Heater is in and has been on for about half an hour. I've got it pointed pretty much over the top of my head when I'm chilling out in my chair and so far, though it isn't terribly cold out here (42 about 20 minutes after the heater was turned on), it seems like it should be nice.

My terrible math estimates around 20-25 bucks per month in electricity at 2 hours per day average, for better heat. I think I won't use it on weekdays so often, but may catch up on the weekends. 

I'm currently in a warm carhartt jacket and long sleeve t shirt with a hat on and any of the outer layers could come off and I'd be OK. So far so good. 

I ran the power for this one, which usually my lovely wife is the electrician in the house, but it was pretty easy. (she supervised) 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/20230114_185623.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1673740618)
 

22°F in my shop.  Need to make a fuel resupply run.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64252/KIMG4079.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1673744370)
 

Wow, that's an awful lot of fuel cans there!

I sort of anticipated this, but closing the store means I'll be tinkering out in my own workshop more. Not sure where that will end up cost wise. Still going with 2 track approach of twin tank top propane and the Kerosun. Only run one at a time unless boosting it from a real low temp. Fire em both up and things warm up fast. 

Current costs around here: tank exchange is $22, K1 is $7.29. Have yet to really figure out hours of heat related to those costs. 

This 1950's era kerosene heater heats my 24x24 shack easily.  5-7 gallons every two to three days.  Running non stop when I'm there.  Always have to turn it on low once the shack reaches 65-70 degrees F.  Simple, effective and needs no electricity to operate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64252/KIMG4080.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1673788347)
 

Quote from: Spike60 on January 15, 2023, 08:01:02 AM
Wow, that's an awful lot of fuel cans there!

I sort of anticipated this, but closing the store means I'll be tinkering out in my own workshop more. Not sure where that will end up cost wise. Still going with 2 track approach of twin tank top propane and the Kerosun. Only run one at a time unless boosting it from a real low temp. Fire em both up and things warm up fast.

Current costs around here: tank exchange is $22, K1 is $7.29. Have yet to really figure out hours of heat related to those costs.

Bob,
Gave up on digging the natural gas line to the garage for now. The weather got really cold, the ground froze, and now it's like spring, but I lack the motivation. Went with the double-top propane heater. The 20lb tanks here are $17ea to fill. The only upside there is that they exchanged both expired tanks I had. I can get propane much cheaper on the rez, but that's 40 miles away....can't pencil it out for just two tanks.

The double propane heater I would have to say is not very economical. If it was really cold and I wanted to work say 7hrs in the garage on HIGH, it would almost take a tank. It is impressive heat though.

K1 kerosene is $14/gal here at the farm store....more at the bulk plant. So basically, my kerosene heaters have become an adornment. I could run winter diesel in them, but I hate the smell.

Kevin

As a rule they don't check the certification dates on a propane bottle unless they want to sell you another one .It all depends on where you live I guess .It's an old con game just like inspection fees on oxygen and acetylene bottles .A way to filch more money out of you if they can .On the propane if they want to be stinkers  about it just find a trade in deal which usually costs a few bucks more then you get an updated bottle .Several ways to skin that cat .

It was 19 above this morning and it just so happens to be the same time I need to load up my fire wood trailer .It's now 37 and I load a little and warm a little .It always gets done just takes longer .
I've lost my enthusiasm to work in the cold .I've got an original "Ember Glow " heater  in my garage but it has to be dire straights if I do anything in this weather.

Shop heat? That is what "dinner tables" are for, whimped out and brought mine inside to assemble. :) 

 :D I did that once repairing a hydraulic pump on a Ferguson tractor .Laid down plastic and lots of news paper .It wasn't that bad of a mess to clean up .

Quote from: DHansen on January 15, 2023, 08:13:07 AM
This 1950's era kerosene heater heats my 24x24 shack easily.  5-7 gallons every two to three days.  Running non stop when I'm there.  Always have to turn it on low once the shack reaches 65-70 degrees F.  Simple, effective and needs no electricity to operate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64252/KIMG4080.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1673788347)

Looks good!! 

Good Lord, $14 a gal? Yikes! Agree that the tank tops go quick if on high and both burners lit. I can usually get what I need with just 1 burner on low or med. Radiant effect with the tank top is nice. Kerosun makes zero noise. Like that I have the 2 options. I've run into both no full tanks, and no K1, (or a broken pump). 

Yeah, and I love K1 heaters. Had eight of them once, but now down to two. The bigger one hasn't been run for yrs....too thirsty although it really puts out the heat.

The BTU content of propane far exceeds natural gas, but it's now also the victim of COVID gouging. Almost a dollar less on the rez per/gal for propane....just can't get there and back cheap enough.

I'm still considering a company propane tank....be so much easier. Just before Christmas my buddy's son was headed down to TX with his GF and then to Florida to work as cooks. Right before they were getting ready to leave, the girl that was gonna watch their house, had the clutch go out on her Suzuki car. I finally got called to do that job after the boy couldn't make it work. He got stumped just taking things apart. Anyway, that's when it turned bitter cold and the car was in a garage. I fooled around with it for about a half hr and said I gotta get some heat over here. We almost had that propane dual heater on top of us. That's when I found out that dual heater propane setup is not that efficient on fuel. :D

Clutch got put in for the house sitter and off they went.....only to be stranded in NM with the tranny going out on their Charger. 4 large for that repair on the road.:o

Kevin

I think K1 is a tad more than diesel fuel .I usual have 5 gallons of each on hand for various usage .A kerosene "torpedo"  heater if it has any size to it can really go through the  kerosene .
The either 4 or 5 panel infrared is not bad on propane but as I've said it has to be really important to fire it up and work on anything this time of the year.
I suppose good old fire wood would be the least expensive if you have a supply of it and live where you could use it .Not everybody does though .

I have the free wood but not the space for the stove, in the shop at least.

I get more heat out of a gallon of kerosene vs diesel.  I can use either in that old gravity feed burner.  But kerosene seems hotter and cleaner.  Just what my observation are and my 2¢.

DHansen
Interesting, as kerosene has fewer BTU's per gallon than diesel. Not by much, just around 10,000 BTU's less for kero

Is all diesel the same?  When I have used diesel it was the pump grade winter stuff, I suspect it's the new bio diesel stuff.  I am not fluent in diesel mechanics or fuels.  And it is just a perseption from me. Lots of variables come into play with ambient temps and flow settings.  But now I know kerosene has less BTU's.

Quote from: DHansen on January 16, 2023, 02:43:30 PM
Is all diesel the same?  When I have used diesel it was the pump grade winter stuff, I suspect it's the new bio diesel stuff.  I am not fluent in diesel mechanics or fuels.  And it is just a perseption from me. Lots of variables come into play with ambient temps and flow settings.  But now I know kerosene has less BTU's.

There is a winter blend and summer blend of diesel.   In my section of NY the main difference is winter diesel has about 30% kerosene added to it for cold tempature flowability.
I bet our Canadian friends get an even higher amount of kerosene cut into theirs.

I have used the off road diesel as it is off road.  wonder about breathing the burned red dye.   ::)   :o  :)

Speaking of which .red dye .I've heard of tax people from say Ohio go around farm sales to check for red dye in the fill spouts .Obviously they must have found some . That stuff stays forever .

Quote from: DHansen on January 16, 2023, 12:39:25 PM
I get more heat out of a gallon of kerosene vs diesel.  I can use either in that old gravity feed burner.  But kerosene seems hotter and cleaner.  Just what my observation are and my 2¢.

That was all explained to me once. K1 is jet fuel without the aviation additives. If diesel was better to burn in jet turbines, then they wouldn't use the more refined jet fuel. K1 burns cleaner and safer in most kerosene heaters. But.....if you have an oil furnace, it's set up for heating oil, not K1.

Kevin

This past weekend i was thinking this would be nice with that horizontal flue right under the main walkway in the shop. Have the firebox door under floor outside and it heats a floor slab/horizontal flue.
Ondol - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondol)

Inherited a 40K BTU torpedo heater and been using that occasionally
in the shop when things need tinkering on.
Had a small Logwood wood stove in there and although
my stove pipe setup was safe doubted it would  pass the insurance sniff test so
quit using that after many years.
We are down to one K-1 pump at a gas station 20 mins away and at $7 gal its
about the least expensive route for me seeing it doesn't get used much.
Bought a decent carbon monoxide detector, reads PPMs down to 0.
Haven't been able to detect any carbon monoxide using it but like others have mentioned a source of fresh air is needed , windows or doors cracked to replace
depleted oxygen from the combustion process.
Would like to put in a masonry chimney for a wood stove but not sure if the insurance Co. would approve of it.

 

In theory that under floor thing should work .Hot water in a concrete slab  works and can often be done with nothing more than a water heater and a recirc  pump .Rather slow to heat up the slab but once done doesn't take much to keep it warm .

So far I've probably got about 10-15 hours in this little electric heater and though it doesn't warm my feet I love it. I adjusted it a bit and now it's pointing down at about 40 degrees, maybe, it is hot on my upper body. I'll have to remember to ask the wife what the bill looks like. I don't think I'm close to my 2 hours per day average, so I'm guessing 15 bucks extra this month. 

I'm late to the party 
I'm using 2 Chinese diesel heaters
One permanent mounted unit and a new style portable unit in a pelican style box.
These things are cheap to run and work great.
Start with a remote before heading out  
Nice dry heat

New farm has a 28x40 shop that I put a ceiling in, blew in R60 cellulose, insulated the 10' overhead door and had 2" foam sprayed on the walls.  

I keep it at 50f with a 7500-watt King electric heater from Menards.  I really didn't want to go electric but I've been very happy with it.  Depending upon the outdoor temps and the wind intensity/direction it's around $50 a month to heat it that way.  The overhead door doesn't seal very well regardless of the new exterior and bottom seals it has.  It needs replaced but lead times on garage doors were crazy when I was doing the work last year.

If I'm out there and want it warmer I usually run my 40k-BTU propane heater and it warms it up to 60 in no time but I'm usually wearing overalls in the winter while out there so it's comfortable enough.

The shop had a masonry chimney that leaked badly when we moved here.  Torn it out and sold the woodburner.  Probably going to put in a thru-wall stainless chimney and bring the spare glass-front burner from the house out there for the longer shop days/nights.

Quote from: Al_Smith on January 16, 2023, 04:18:29 PM
Speaking of which .red dye .I've heard of tax people from say Ohio go around farm sales to check for red dye in the fill spouts .Obviously they must have found some . That stuff stays forever .

They dip tanks at farm shows too.  Rumor is running the off-road fuel through a filter of kitty litter strips the dye... :-X

Guess I lost track of this topic. I have a 36 X 38 garage/shop. When I installed my OWB, I put in a dedicated circuit for it. I have pex that runs along the ceiling/wall corner on 3 of the four sides. The building is insulated. For outdoor temps above 0-10 (depends on wind), inside will stay above freezing and I don't run that circuit. For colder temps, I plug in the circulator and the radiant heat from the PEX keeps the inside above 40F. If I want to work in there, I turn on one or more of 3 Modine heaters that have the PEX plumbed to them. Easily heats the space to 50F or above quickly.

If I had it to do over again, I'd have radiant heat in the floors to keep the temp around 40F and duplicate the Modine heaters for when I want to do work because they heat the space up so quickly.

But even the radiant PEX sucks up a lot of heat. Very noticeable with wood usage when I heat the garage. Good thing I like to do firewood!

R60?! @OH_Varmntr (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=57665) I'm surprised you have room under you to do any work! I don't think I've heard of R60.

There comes a point where super high efficency both heat source and insulation is not a money savings deal long term .For example my recently installed high efficiency propane furnace is 95 percent .To go to 96 percent would have been another $1600 . I've got 12 inches of insulation in the attic .Another 6 inches might be a pay back in 25 years but that would put my age at 100 . So I don't use much propane but I do use a fair amount of firewood .They say cut back to 65 in the house but I'll be damned if I'm going to freeze in my own home .

Quote from: Al_Smith on February 06, 2023, 08:33:43 AM
There comes a point where super high efficency both heat source and insulation is not a money savings deal long term .For example my recently installed high efficiency propane furnace is 95 percent .To go to 96 percent would have been another $1600 . I've got 12 inches of insulation in the attic .Another 6 inches might be a pay back in 25 years but that would put my age at 100 . So I don't use much propane but I do use a fair amount of firewood .They say cut back to 65 in the house but I'll be damned if I'm going to freeze in my own home .

I'd like to pay a visit to "they" that say such things. I'd bet a lot of money their houses aren't at 65

 :D I'd bet not either .Then on the other hand ,the mother of my children ,my first wife would prefer 60 I think .Little firey red head that must have been an Eskimo .

Quote from: aigheadish on February 06, 2023, 06:48:44 AM
R60?! @OH_Varmntr (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=57665) I'm surprised you have room under you to do any work! I don't think I've heard of R60.

Yessir, attics around here are rec'd R49-R60.  Not that uncommon.

They were supposed to blow in fiberglass but they loaded the truck wrong and had some high-dollar cellulose in it instead and did it for the same price and said something about they don't like unloading material back out of their trucks.  Guy said it ended up being 20-24" deep.   

When I bought his house in 1997 it had radiant ceiling heat which was popular in the 80's .Problem was it only had 4" of  fiberglass in the ceiling .Over that depending on which portion of the house I used 2 6" batts or had fiberglass blown in 12" deep . The floor has 6" and the walls obviously only 4"as it was framed with 2 by 4's .
As I understand it fiberglass has an R factor of 2.2 to 2.7 ..So in theory the attic being a total of 16" would be around R 35-38 .
It's a brick house with Andersen or Geld-Wen windows with plastic vapor barrier on the outside walls .It's tight .I did an energy  audit of heat lose which is about 30,000 BTU per hour .Which considering the  amount of large windows really isn't that bad ..
I've got three sources of heat ,the ceiling radiant,propane forced air or the wood burning insert .The later has carried the load this winter .Very seldom has the propane came on the line .It's set a 72 degrees the radiant at 65 . The insert usually carries about 75 .