Hello, I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice on sawmills and equipment.
Background:
I am currently designing a timber frame home to build on a large wooded parcel in the Appalachian mountains. This will be my next and likely final home. The property currently has over 100 acres of mature hardwood, predominantly white oak, red oak, black oak, and chestnut oak. The property has steep and relatively flat land and a good network of old logging roads.
I would like to harvest the lumber from my land for the build. My timeline is to begin the build in 3 to 5 years.
I currently live in the Blue Ridge mountains, about an hour drive from the future build site.
Future build site currently has no utilities. The only thing on the property is a 200 sft cabin.
I have very limited sawmill experience but I do have quite a bit of equipment operation experience (tractors, excavators, skid steers, graders, etc...)
I do have a tractor with pallet forks (Kubota MX 5100).
Advice needed:
I am planning to start acquiring the equipment that I will not only need to build the home but also to maintain the property, make improvements to old logging roads, keep steers and other farm animals, build outbuildings and barns, and possibly do small scale excavation and grading work on the side.
I am currently thinking about the following equipment to begin felling trees, processing lumber, and clearing and grading the build site. This is where I would really love to hear about people's experiences doing this type of work. Here are my current thoughts:
Woodmizer LT15 Wide (advice on the mill and attachments/add-ons welcomed). Is this enough mill?
Track Loader/Skid Steer - 2,200 to 3,000 lb machine. Likely something along the lines of a CAT 279 to CAT 299 or equivalent. This would accompany the mill to move milled lumber to a kiln.
Excavator - 13,000 to 20,000 lb machine. Likely something along the lines of a CAT 305 to CAT 308 or equivalent. This would be used to move logs, dig stumps, dig foundations and drainfields, and property management work.
Kiln - Would love to build a solar kiln but time may become an issue. Potentially build a kiln utilizing a Woodmizer KD150 or equivalent, but I understand the amount of work involved with building such a kiln.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
If I were young again and had the funds, I would love to do what you are planning.
I would consider a bigger hydraulic mill and add an edger.
Build a big shed to house equipment and lumber
The already owned forked Kubota is all you need around the sawmill, drying shed and kiln.
Excavator with thumb will dig and handle logs too.
JMO Thanks
Quote from: Sixacresand on April 09, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
If I were young again and had the funds, I would love to do what you are planning.
I would consider a bigger hydraulic mill and add an edger.
Build a big shed to house equipment and lumber
The already owned forked Kubota is all you need around the sawmill, drying shed and kiln.
Excavator with thumb will dig and handle logs too.
JMO Thanks
Thank you Sixacresand.
Unfortunately I think you might be correct about a bigger hydraulic mill. However, if I end up not needing a skid loader that money could be used for a bigger/better mill.
A thumb is a must for me on an excavator, so useful!
You might want to consider a root/rake grapple. I love mine. Pick up logs and put them on the top of the pile, put them on the mill. Grabs brush piles no problem. You can use the tines to gouge the ground, clear it off or pull a rock out. I have also used it to hold logs while I buck them into smaller pieces or to keep my chainsaw from getting pinched.
I had a bunch of trees get blown down and it is dangerous trying to get them removed. I grab a part of the tree to hold it while I am cutting and then set it down safely, things like that.
To put in my garage and gardens I cleared off an acre. There are a lot of branches and for every tree I cut down, I got at least four millable logs. Just grabbing them and moving them is pretty convenient.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67554/20210719_152140.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1642820011)
Thanks Rusticretreater
I've been wanting to add a grapple to my tractor for years, seems like now might be the right time. Yours looks like a nice one.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 09, 2023, 04:09:11 PMYou might want to consider a root/rake grapple.
Glad to hear you like your Wicked Grapple. Mine should be coming in the next few weeks. The 12ish week wait is a killer.
Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4445) joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him
Sounds like you are on the right track and there will be a lot of satisfaction to come from milling your own lumber.
Two thoughts come to mind. First, I agree with upgrading to a hydraulic mill. All you are describing is very doable with a manual mill but time and wear and tear on your body will be concerns. Even with equipment like you describe, time to rotate logs and cants manually and the "on and off" of equipment will wear on a person.
Second, I own a Kubota MX 5100. They are great tractors but light for log and lumber handling.
Quote from: customsawyer on April 09, 2023, 05:07:31 PM
Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4445) joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him
RaiderBill sounds like a good dude. I'll try the search button, thanks.
Welcome to the Forum. Since you say this is likely to be your last house I am presuming you are no longer 25, as such I would really suggest you look at hydraulic mills.
The 15 is an excellent mill and will produce fine lumber, it's the handling of all that material that will make or break you and anything you can do to reduce handling will pay back dividends.
One of the smartest moves I made was getting hydraulics, and it wasn't my idea. I knew I could deal with a manual mill, fortunately I listened to others.
Quote from: SawyerTed on April 09, 2023, 05:33:13 PM
Second, I own a Kubota MX 5100. They are great tractors but light for log and lumber handling.
You are right, thank you.
How long / heavy of logs are you planning to mill?
Jake and I both have Cat 420DiT backhoes, and skid/track loaders. I'd give up the skid steer before I gave up my backhoe with the integrated tool hanger on front. I can pick up an 8000 lb log with it and swap between forks and a bucket in 30 seconds w/o leaving the cab. I have a 20' mast that I made that attaches to the forks and I can use it to set trusses, etc.
If you go the skid steer route, a grapple rake is the best option for handling logs, and pallet forks for handling stacks of lumber.
Farm tractors with a 3 point hitch are great for property maintenance. They can pull a bush hog mower for rough areas, finishing mower, box and scraper blades, and driveway scrapers for driveway maintenance. They are not as easy to use as a skid steer for forklift work, nor do they have the hydraulic capacity of a skid steer. Lots of inexpensive implements available too.
Skid steers are not ideal for grading roads, but excel at small and mid size log handling, loader and fork work, and awesome at augering holes with a hydraulic auger and for trenching ditches.
I highly recommend hydraulics with a sawmill.
Quote from: Southside on April 09, 2023, 05:36:40 PM
Welcome to the Forum. Since you say this is likely to be your last house I am presuming you are no longer 25, as such I would really suggest you look at hydraulic mills.
The 15 is an excellent mill and will produce fine lumber, it's the handling of all that material that will make or break you and anything you can do to reduce handling will pay back dividends.
One of the smartest moves I made was getting hydraulics, and it wasn't my idea. I knew I could deal with a manual mill, fortunately I listened to others.
Sadly 25 passed more than 20 years ago. I weight train regularly, but I understand this is different. I'll take your advice, thanks.
IMO, in this lifetime, get the logs to a sawing field. Hire in a sawyer and get the timbers drying and at least some of oaks movement behind you. You cannot force oak timbers to behave while drying. Saw it oversize, dry it as long as possible and remill at time of use with your small mill or a planer setup. Getting an experienced hydraulic mill in there to quickly build the pile will get things underway years faster. Mill plenty plus enough to build simple drying roofs over the timbers. Put the word out you need old tin if you don't have a pile. Borate the timbers green from the saw to keep the bugs at bay as it dries. Then prep the site, build the foundation, saw the boards, cabinets and trim and get that drying while you do the shell. A dehumidifier in a insulated plastic lined room in the shell can cook the trim. Or the sauna if you are putting one in.
Quote from: RetiredTech on April 09, 2023, 04:57:46 PMGlad to hear you like your Wicked Grapple. Mine should be coming in the next few weeks. The 12ish week wait is a killer.
EA Ted has his boys build them right. I guess you are getting the Long Third Function valve. Mine came with the fittings reversed on one end. The pressure hoses are good quality though.
Quote from: Don P on April 09, 2023, 07:18:49 PM
IMO, in this lifetime, get the logs to a sawing field. Hire in a sawyer and get the timbers drying and at least some of oaks movement behind you. You cannot force oak timbers to behave while drying. Saw it oversize, dry it as long as possible and remill at time of use with your small mill or a planer setup. Getting an experienced hydraulic mill in there to quickly build the pile will get things underway years faster. Mill plenty plus enough to build simple drying roofs over the timbers. Put the word out you need old tin if you don't have a pile. Borate the timbers green from the saw to keep the bugs at bay as it dries. Then prep the site, build the foundation, saw the boards, cabinets and trim and get that drying while you do the shell. A dehumidifier in a insulated plastic lined room in the shell can cook the trim. Or the sauna if you are putting one in.
This sounds like solid advice. I appreciated the feedback. I will be cautious about how oak will behave while drying.
I do have a large trailer but, to my knowledge, the closest mill is over an hour from the build site. Might be worth it if the quality is good though.
I was suggesting having them trailer their bandmill to you.
I have a mill, I've still called someone in or bought timbers when my time is better spent on some other part of the problem. You just rattled off a list that would take me several years at full time and I am tooled up and experienced.
But mainly I was looking for this link to post
Green Oak in Construction (forestry.gov.scot) (https://forestry.gov.scot/publications/343-green-oak-in-construction)
I'm off to look at just 3 logs but need to see if the logs are moving or the mill, its always "plates in the air" :)
Quote from: Don P on April 10, 2023, 09:23:02 AM
I was suggesting having them trailer their bandmill to you.
I have a mill, I've still called someone in or bought timbers when my time is better spent on some other part of the problem. You just rattled off a list that would take me several years at full time and I am tooled up and experienced.
But mainly I was looking for this link to post
Green Oak in Construction (forestry.gov.scot) (https://forestry.gov.scot/publications/343-green-oak-in-construction)
I'm off to look at just 3 logs but need to see if the logs are moving or the mill, its always "plates in the air" :)
Ok, I get it now. My lower pasture would be a prime location to saw (it's the only flat land I have there). I appreciate the link, I'll definitely check that out.
As far as a kiln goes the WM K150/ Nyle L53 might be low on capacity for what you want. Research the drying times for the species and thickness, hardwoods can take a while to dry.
Ask yourself what your final goal is.
1. Build a timber frame house.
2. Turn rough land into a homestead.
3. Become a logger?
4. Become a Sawyer?
5. Become adept at drying wood?
If the answer is all of the above, go for it.
If however it's not all, then maybe a more focused approach is better.
What you describe, in my opinion, will involve years of work and learning and much more involved than buying equipment.
I think Ljohnsaw would be a good guy to ask as I think he is in the process of doing something similar in CA.
As suggested by others, you may want to hire out portions of the work.
My personal experience just as a reference: I built our house with alot of help from my Father and Cousin. We did everything - septic system to roof, Hired out only electrical, sheetrock and insulation. It took over 2 years every free minute. A timber frame will take even more time.
Not trying to discourage you, just be realistic with how much time it really takes. Good luck, don't give up and see your dream through as you intend!
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on April 10, 2023, 12:42:50 PM
Ask yourself what your final goal is.
1. Build a timber frame house.
2. Turn rough land into a homestead.
3. Become a logger?
4. Become a Sawyer?
5. Become adept at drying wood?
If the answer is all of the above, go for it.
If however it's not all, then maybe a more focused approach is better.
What you describe, in my opinion, will involve years of work and learning and much more involved than buying equipment.
I think Ljohnsaw would be a good guy to ask as I think he is in the process of doing something similar in CA.
Thank you for posing these questions, they will be helpful for me.
In a sense, I could answer yes to all; however, I do not intend to become a commercial logger or sawyer, this would only be for my use and gratification.
Likely the most applicable question you posed is "turn rough land into a homestead." I think that pretty much nails what I'm after. I'm a self reliant person and I've dreamed up a couple of lifetimes worth of projects I want to do. In a similar vein, I will build a smithy and probably end up making my own nails for my projects :D. I'm after self reliance, learning, and applying what I've learned.
I will try to contact Ljohnsaw. I'm very interested in learning from others who are trying to, or have done, something similar.
Quote from: jpassardi on April 10, 2023, 01:03:38 PM
As suggested by others, you may want to hire out portions of the work.
My personal experience just as a reference: I built our house with alot of help from my Father and Cousin. We did everything - septic system to roof, Hired out only electrical, sheetrock and insulation. It took over 2 years every free minute. A timber frame will take even more time.
Not trying to discourage you, just be realistic with how much time it really takes. Good luck, don't give up and see your dream through as you intend!
Thank you. I should clarify that I won't be building the house myself, that is too much since it is just me, there won't be any help available. I am interested in sawing the lumber for the build but it is starting to sound like maybe I should bring on an experienced sawyer for the big stuff. That option might be very helpful as I can learn from someone who knows what the heck they are doing.
As was mentioned there is a whole lot of education that will come with the project you are proposing. Just getting timber on the ground without damaging it or everything around it is an art and a science. Then knowing which logs to saw, and how to saw them into the desired products. You mention hill sides so I see off set pith logs meaning you start to make beams with them and the forces of gravity and said resistance to it will make 8x8's on your mill curl like a bananna right before your eyes, and that's while they are still green.
Not saying you can't do it, and hiring a portable mill to come on site and get the heavy lifting out of the way and the drying process beginning will give you a valuable education that you can then apply to some of the other components of the build. At the end of the day your fingerprints will still be on everything, they will just have some others helping is all.
Quote from: Southside on April 10, 2023, 02:08:36 PM
As was mentioned there is a whole lot of education that will come with the project you are proposing. Just getting timber on the ground without damaging it or everything around it is an art and a science. Then knowing which logs to saw, and how to saw them into the desired products. You mention hill sides so I see off set pith logs meaning you start to make beams with them and the forces of gravity and said resistance to it will make 8x8's on your mill curl like a bananna right before your eyes, and that's while they are still green.
Not saying you can't do it, and hiring a portable mill to come on site and get the heavy lifting out of the way and the drying process beginning will give you a valuable education that you can then apply to some of the other components of the build. At the end of the day your fingerprints will still be on everything, they will just have some others helping is all.
Thank you. I'm quite adept at felling trees, it is what happens afterward that I will need to learn. I think your recommendation is good advice.
There seem to be several Virginia boys replying to this topic. Good to see ya!
Quote from: Dave Covington on April 09, 2023, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on April 09, 2023, 05:07:31 PM
Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4445) joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him
RaiderBill sounds like a good dude. I'll try the search button, thanks.
Once you get to know me you will change your mind..
:D ;D 8)
So in 2006 I bought land that ended up being 133 acres near Tellico Plains Tenn. All forest mostly loblolly but also about 50 ac of hardwood.
My plan like yours was to buy a mill and make me a timber frame using my trees. In my defense I was going to use heavy metal brackets and plates instead of learning joints and hard stuff like that.
I met Tom at Sawlex that spring.
Now Tom knew sawmills and sawing. Raider Bill not so much. Actually that day was the first time I had ever seen one.
We were sitting around admiring Toms brand new huge mill when he asked me if I was the new fellow on the forum that just bought land and was going to buy a mill and build my own timber frame?
Yes Sir! I proudly proclaimed.
How long do you figure it will take you he asked?
Well I'm planning on being in it in 18 months.
Ever run a mill?
NO
Ever build a frame?
No
Ever build a house?
Nope
Ol Tom looked at me and said " Son, that is never going to happen", ever. LOL
Tom was a smart man.
I did build the house and was in it in 18 months.
I used foam blocks.
I also burned up a bull dozer but that's another story.
Quote from: Raider Bill on April 10, 2023, 02:46:31 PM
Quote from: Dave Covington on April 09, 2023, 05:35:50 PM
Quote from: customsawyer on April 09, 2023, 05:07:31 PM
Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4445) joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him
RaiderBill sounds like a good dude. I'll try the search button, thanks.
Once you get to know me you will change your mind..
:D ;D 8)
So in 2006 I bought land that ended up being 133 acres near Tellico Plains Tenn. All forest mostly loblolly but also about 50 ac of hardwood.
My plan like yours was to buy a mill and make me a timber frame using my trees. In my defense I was going to use heavy metal brackets and plates instead of learning joints and hard stuff like that.
I met Tom at Sawlex that spring.
Now Tom knew sawmills and sawing. Raider Bill not so much. Actually that day was the first time I had ever seen one.
We were sitting around admiring Toms brand new huge mill when he asked me if I was the new fellow on the forum that just bought land and was going to buy a mill and build my own timber frame?
Yes Sir! I proudly proclaimed.
How long do you figure it will take you he asked?
Well I'm planning on being in it in 18 months.
Ever run a mill?
NO
Ever build a frame?
No
Ever build a house?
Nope
Ol Tom looked at me and said " Son, that is never going to happen", ever. LOL
Tom was a smart man.
I did build the house and was in it in 18 months.
I used foam blocks.
I also burned up a bull dozer but that's another story.
Thanks for the info! I won't be physically building myself because I have no help. I am interested in sawing the lumber, maybe. I plan to begin the build in 3 to 5 years, so there may be an opportunity to learn then execute, but i do want to be realistic. Drying probably has me more concerned than sawing at this point.
Did you abandon timber frame entirely?
No timber frame for me. Love the look but I know my limitations.
Stacking blocks then filling them with concrete seemed like the way to go. Hind sight, I should have stick framed it as the ICF was way overkill for the climate.
With help from Florida friends that came up to help and a couple locals that pitched in for free beer I did mostly everything myself except for the roof and slab.
In the end I built the 3-2 house and a 1 bedroom log home out of factory milled but uncut logs.
Quote from: Raider Bill on April 10, 2023, 03:22:35 PM
.... but I know my limitations.
Clint Eastwood would be proud! :D
Raiders story is much more enjoyable when he tells it in person. Of course I'm not going to pass up a opportunity to bring up a memory of Tom.
Like I said I had never built a house before. I had done remodeling and rehab but nothing like starting from scratch. To make matters worse, I designed and used napkins and legal pads as I had no blueprints or drawings other than that.
The guys here on the forum were a great help with advise, knowledge and groundings when I got carried away with my ideas.
Hint When Don P. talks about building something listen. There is a huge amount of knowledge and talent here.
Building that house and working the land was one of the best times of my life so much so that I neglected other aspects that suffered.
Would I do it again, you betcha!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/100_0138.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1681216138)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0535_1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1563797513)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/1832~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1681216609)
If you are going to build a timberframe, save some $ for a chain mortiser!
You pretty well have to have your house and timber frame plan in order to know what you need for a mill.
It is not uncommon to want beams longer than the standard mill length. That is were the advantage of a two track mill is, it is easier to add track if you end up with some long beams in your plan I have seen temporary extensions for a two track mill over 50 feet long made from lumber with a angle iron on top and 20 foot extensions made from 2x6 steel and angle iron.
Wood-mizer does make a planer that runs on Lt 15 tracks that would be handy to clean up and final size beams but then you have no hydraulic functions unless you make and add them your self.
Norwood (2 track) makes a planer as well and does offer add on hydraulic functions.
Other things to consider is to check for the ability to use your own structural lumber in your area and requirements for making timber frame buildings. There are still lots of places for non-structural lumber in a house too.
I built my part timber frame house with a old Case 2wd backhoe and a 2 ton dump truck and hauled logs (spruce, lighter and likely smaller than your hardwoods) with a little MF210 tractor. I sawed my beams and braces with a homemade mill (bar and chain not bandsaw) but when it came to regular lumber I bought it from a lumber yard as it would have taken much longer with my mill than I was willing to take and I would have had to jump through all the hoops to get past the county regs. I did everything from excavation to the peak except the electrical and troweling the floor. My Dad helped some and once in a while a friend would stop by to help so it can be done. It "only" took 4 winters from logging to move in.
I wouldn't rule out a swing mill
Peterson, turbo saw both nice sawmills.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on April 11, 2023, 06:12:25 PM
You pretty well have to have your house and timber frame plan in order to know what you need for a mill.
It is not uncommon to want beams longer than the standard mill length. That is were the advantage of a two track mill is, it is easier to add track if you end up with some long beams in your plan I have seen temporary extensions for a two track mill over 50 feet long made from lumber with a angle iron on top and 20 foot extensions made from 2x6 steel and angle iron.
Wood-mizer does make a planer that runs on Lt 15 tracks that would be handy to clean up and final size beams but then you have no hydraulic functions unless you make and add them your self.
Norwood (2 track) makes a planer as well and does offer add on hydraulic functions.
Other things to consider is to check for the ability to use your own structural lumber in your area and requirements for making timber frame buildings. There are still lots of places for non-structural lumber in a house too.
I built my part timber frame house with a old Case 2wd backhoe and a 2 ton dump truck and hauled logs (spruce, lighter and likely smaller than your hardwoods) with a little MF210 tractor. I sawed my beams and braces with a homemade mill (bar and chain not bandsaw) but when it came to regular lumber I bought it from a lumber yard as it would have taken much longer with my mill than I was willing to take and I would have had to jump through all the hoops to get past the county regs. I did everything from excavation to the peak except the electrical and troweling the floor. My Dad helped some and once in a while a friend would stop by to help so it can be done. It "only" took 4 winters from logging to move in.
Thank you, there is a lot of useful information here. I was under the impression that an LT15 Wide could accept additional tracks to saw longer logs, but maybe I'm incorrect on that. Or perhaps sawing logs that long will require a "bigger" mill with more horsepower and more cooling capacity?
Regarding structural lumber, the good news for me is that I have a license that allows me to grade lumber and design structural members; however, I've consulted an architect who has a structural engineer available to do that.
The more I read the excellent feedback I'm receiving here, I'm thinking that I might focus on sawing the smaller, more standard size lumber and let someone else take care of the larger structural members. The most challenging thing for me will be available time to learn, practice, practice some more, then execute what I've learned and practiced.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on April 11, 2023, 06:19:52 PM
I wouldn't rule out a swing mill
Peterson, turbo saw both nice sawmills.
Thank you. I will do some research on swing mills. I'm slightly familiar with them, but not enough to make a decision like that at the moment.
Swing mills are designed to eliminate log turning, correct?
Correct. Also look at Lucas swing mills. That's what I have, and love it because of the large diameter logs I normally saw. If you decide to go with a swing mill, make sure to get one that will saw at least a 8"x16" cant. I bought a smaller 6" mill(able to saw a 6"x12" cant) and I've always wished I'd bought a larger capacity mill.
Most mills have track extensions available but if you ended up with some extra long beams it can be quite expensive an extra 6 or 10 feet not so bad, that is were the DIY ones would be handy and a 2 track would be easy to do where a monorail type would be expensive to buy and harder to DIY.
There are many ways to slice the pie only you will be able to decide what is best for you.
If I had the ability to grade and use my own lumber and a better mill at the time I probably would have cut and used more myself. As far as power goes the length of the log does not matter so much, small industrial engines are designed to run at their rated output at a high duty cycle.
The advantages of cutting the beams yourself as DonP mentioned is being able to saw oversize and re-saw to final later, another would be that you can get a bunch of side lumber when cutting the beams.
If you build yourself a mill shelter and a long TF workshop (doesn't need to be very wide) you will get lots of practice and the added shelter would extend the time available to work as you can now work on rainy days and after dark much easier.
Yes, lt15's can extend length by adding sections. As noted you could also fabricate it easily.
You can cut about any timbers needed on a small mill, it will just take more time and physical work.
Quote from: jpassardi on April 12, 2023, 10:29:52 AM
Yes, lt15's can extend length by adding sections. As noted you could also fabricate it easily.
You can cut about any timbers needed on a small mill, it will just take more time and physical work.
Thank you. I'm down for the physical work (I enjoy it) but time is certainly an issue for me, at least at the moment.
I also appreciate all of you who list your equipment. This helps me understand what experienced sawyers are using to support their mill. I'm seeing a lot of backhoes and that tells me something. It is telling me that I should seriously consider a backhoe rather than an excavator and skid/track loader.
A full size backhoe will get you the most bang for the buck. If i could have only 1, it would be my CAT 416. I do have forks and a hyd. thumb though.
You'll need a good-sized skid or track loader and mini excavator to match the lift/dig capability. They have their advantages also though: attachments, tow with a pickup, excavator can rotate 360 - backhoe can't.
Will you do your site work also?
Quote from: jpassardi on April 12, 2023, 01:56:36 PM
A full size backhoe will get you the most bang for the buck. If i could have only 1, it would be my CAT 416. I do have forks and a hyd. thumb though.
You'll need a good-sized skid or track loader and mini excavator to match the lift/dig capability. They have their advantages also though: attachments, tow with a pickup, excavator can rotate 360 - backhoe can't.
Will you do your site work also?
I'm finally coming around to that conclusion about a backhoe. I'm a huge excavator fan, I've operated quite a few from small to very large and I love how efficient they are. However, if it means spending an additional $50k, that may change the equation.
I would like to do the majority of site work myself, but I will need a dozer to come in for stumping and grading.
Another bonus for the backhoe is that the property is large and mountainous. If I need to work on the backside of the property it would take half a day to track and excavator back there, but a backhoe would be much quicker. It would also meet my future farming/ranching needs that I had planned for a track loader.
Thanks!
Quote from: Dave Covington on April 12, 2023, 08:27:10 AMI have a license that allows me to grade lumber and design structural members;
What license is that?
Echoing what others have said I think it is very important to evaluate what your time is worth and how much faster a professional can do it and what they charge for that service. Sure, it's fun to learn new things but that doesn't mean it is the best way to spend your time. Especially if you have a timeline or expectation of how fast things will come together.
Also, your list of things you want to do is the making of a potentially very dismal forest. Now, maybe you don't really care that much for what the forest becomes; do as you want. If you want to leave it at least as good as you found it you should pay a professional to help you plan for what will happen if you do nothing and what could happen if you put some effort into managing your trees.
Quote from: Don P on April 12, 2023, 05:22:56 PM
Quote from: Dave Covington on April 12, 2023, 08:27:10 AMI have a license that allows me to grade lumber and design structural members;
What license is that?
A professional engineering license. My degree was in structural engineering. I'm not sure why PEs are certified to grade lumber, but we are.
Quote from: Clark on April 12, 2023, 05:44:09 PM
Echoing what others have said I think it is very important to evaluate what your time is worth and how much faster a professional can do it and what they charge for that service. Sure, it's fun to learn new things but that doesn't mean it is the best way to spend your time. Especially if you have a timeline or expectation of how fast things will come together.
Also, your list of things you want to do is the making of a potentially very dismal forest. Now, maybe you don't really care that much for what the forest becomes; do as you want. If you want to leave it at least as good as you found it you should pay a professional to help you plan for what will happen if you do nothing and what could happen if you put some effort into managing your trees.
You are correct and that is why I'm asking questions here. Time is certainly a major consideration for me and I'm learning here that there are certain tasks that I should hire a professional for.
Regarding forest management, I am very cognizant of good forest management practices. I've had a management plan in place for nearly 20 years and will ensure that not only my parcels are managed well, but surrounding parcels as well. I've got an agreement with adjacent land owners to manage nearly 600 acres of forested land. I have no intentions of destroying forested areas, I have a plan to live in a forest and manage it as well as the wildlife that live on it. About 10 years ago I executed a 17 acre habitat project that included planting thousands of trees, shrub cells, and native warm season grasses (that was part of my management plan). I plan to clear about 3 - 5 acres for a build site, constituting 1 to 2 percent of the forested area I own or have first right of refusal on. The old logging roads, dating back over 150 years, are my transportation network through the property. They are essential for me to have good access to remote portions on the back side of the property which borders an 8,000 acre wildlife management area. I have a very good relationship with the local forester and he has visited my property many times, often just to take a walk on the property with me to see how things are going. A relatively small portion of my property is open pasture (where I performed the habitat project) and that is where I would like to put out a small number of steers to raise for beef (6-8 head). I care more about that land than any other property I've ever owned or visited.
I do not write this to defend my position, I only write this so that people on this forum can better understand my objectives. I have no interest in commercial logging or sawing, I would just like to build my home from trees that I clear from the build site and others that need to be harvested for forest management reasons.
Our local building department has allowed us to have an engineer grade under the alternative methods and materials clause but I do check first.
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[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Sawn lumber shall be identified by a grade mark of an accredited lumber grading or inspection agency and have design values certified by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.[/color]
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[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]In determining whether any material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction complies with this code, the building official shall approve items listed by nationally recognized testing laboratories, when such items are listed for the intended use and application, and in addition, may consider the recommendations of RDPs. Approval shall be issued when the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code and that the material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed by the code.[/color]
Quote from: Don P on April 13, 2023, 06:24:36 PMOur local building department has allowed us to have an engineer grade under the alternative methods and materials clause but I do check first.
Similar situation here, you can have a "non-standard" building design or material certified by a properly qualified Engineer. Not commonly used for houses, as they tend to be "by the book" designs, and use regular graded wood. It's just cheaper and easier to go that way. But a structural Engineer is qualified to build all sorts of different structures, and certify what materials and construction methods are to be used. The Engineer is more qualified than the building inspector, so the inspectors job then basically becomes making sure you follow the approved plans.
Dave keep in mind managing your timber while getting the timber for your home at the same time might create some problems. In a lot of timber/land management you would normally be removing the poorer trees so the better ones can continue to grow. In building your house you are going to be wanting some of the better trees on your property for certain parts of the house. It can be a challenge at times but it sure sounds like you have a good idea on what you are getting yourself into. Should be very rewarding.
Quote from: customsawyer on April 14, 2023, 03:50:19 AM
Dave keep in mind managing your timber while getting the timber for your home at the same time might create some problems. In a lot of timber/land management you would normally be removing the poorer trees so the better ones can continue to grow. In building your house you are going to be wanting some of the better trees on your property for certain parts of the house. It can be a challenge at times but it sure sounds like you have a good idea on what you are getting yourself into. Should be very rewarding.
Absolutely. I want to clear the build site to be large enough that I don't have any hazard trees in the future (essentially 3 - 5 acres of good quality oak). I've cut nearly two dozen hazard trees from around my current house, I want to avoid that problem in the future. That will leave me enough space for outbuildings in the future as well.
I may have to take some trees outside of that area, but the majority of my property needs a little thinning anyway (according to the local forester whom I agree with) which will enable me to take some mature trees so that newer growth can thrive. I don't know the entire history, but I believe that the last time this property was logged it was done with ox. I have found ox shoes and old crosscut saw blades on the property. Interestingly, this property was once part of a 13,000 acre parcel that was used to produce railroad cross-ties. That was in the mid to late 1800s.
We recently cut a nice chestnut oak natural Y post out of the first fork of one I got to leave bucking instructions for the arborist. There is opportunity on those cull trees if you do have your own equipment to play with. We made that post on the swingblade which allows tracking L-R over about 4' of width. Cruck frames would be easy on one. I've put the planer head on, clamp up a half dozen timbers at a time and use the swingblade to joint them straight and plane to uniform dimension. I've also messed up and dropped a huge log into a ditch. We set up the mill over the ditch and sawed until it was light enough to flip out of there.
Cherry is another good one for "naturals" if that is in you taste. I had this in my gallery. I did it with my circle mill so am limited to about 18" of spread and I need to saw a bearing on the side to turn it up and dog. It can work but you're really limited by the mill in that instance. Making lumber it'll do circles around the swingblade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/Ypostop.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480639780)
Quote from: Don P on April 14, 2023, 08:48:32 AM
We recently cut a nice chestnut oak natural Y post out of the first fork of one I got to leave bucking instructions for the arborist. There is opportunity on those cull trees if you do have your own equipment to play with. We made that post on the swingblade which allows tracking L-R over about 4' of width. Cruck frames would be easy on one. I've put the planer head on, clamp up a half dozen timbers at a time and use the swingblade to joint them straight and plane to uniform dimension. I've also messed up and dropped a huge log into a ditch. We set up the mill over the ditch and sawed until it was light enough to flip out of there.
Cherry is another good one for "naturals" if that is in you taste. I had this in my gallery. I did it with my circle mill so am limited to about 18" of spread and I need to saw a bearing on the side to turn it up and dog. It can work but you're really limited by the mill in that instance. Making lumber it'll do circles around the swingblade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/Ypostop.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480639780)
Thanks for sharing. I have very nice Chestnut Oak. I have an abundance of Cherry. I have ideas :P. I'll keep reading all these great posts!
Thank you all for your feedback and thoughts.
I took the architect out to the property today. She confirmed my siting thoughts. On to the next stage.
Also, with everyone's assistance I'm focusing on:
1) Hire an experienced Sawyer for the structural members
2) Buy an LT15Wide or similar Norwood
3) Learn and practice!
4) Saw non-structural lumber for the build
5) Buy a nice used backhoe to support the mill and dig stumps. It will also meet my farming/ranching needs
Bonus - my architect showed up to my property driving a crew cab diesel dually with an aluminum flat bed! I think I chose well.
Let me know if I've strayed off course.
Alternatively your architect might charge Manhattan attorney rates.
Quote from: Southside on April 14, 2023, 06:23:52 PM
Alternatively your architect charges Manhattan attorney rates.
Fortunately not. Farming family.
Dave,
I think you're on the right track. I'm a Licensed Professional Engineer also. I designed and stamped our house plans before I built it as well. We're considering self building a timber frame addition in the near future now that I have my own mill. Personally, I prefer the knot contrast in eastern white pine frames.
With regard to lumber grading: as you're aware: ethically you took an oath to not design anything you don't have the education and experience necessary to do so. Grading lumber is no different and frankly requires less knowledge.
The LT15 is a good choice for a personal mill. They are a bit more pricey but have a few more upgrades compared to other lower end mills such as roller guides, a frame as opposed to angle iron and foldable backstops and crank or power feed. I built a power feed from an old wheel chair motor and cheap PWM controller, winch claw log turner. Power up/down in the works, next will probably be a power clamp.
I wouldn't hesitate to cut your own structural timbers. Iron out the design, talk it through with your timber framer if you plan to hire it out. Assuming they plan to square rule frame it, the timber dimensions don't need to be exact once dry (or green).
You'll want to box/center the heart (pith) and/or cut it out of the timbers to reduce stress - align your first cuts parallel to the pith.
Quote from: jpassardi on April 15, 2023, 08:26:40 PM
Dave,
I think you're on the right track. I'm a Licensed Professional Engineer also. I designed and stamped our house plans before I built it as well. We're considering self building a timber frame addition in the near future now that I have my own mill. Personally, I prefer the knot contrast in eastern white pine frames.
With regard to lumber grading: as you're aware: ethically you took an oath to not design anything you don't have the education and experience necessary to do so. Grading lumber is no different and frankly requires less knowledge.
The LT15 is a good choice for a personal mill. They are a bit more pricey but have a few more upgrades compared to other lower end mills such as roller guides, a frame as opposed to angle iron and foldable backstops and crank or power feed. I built a power feed from an old wheel chair motor and cheap PWM controller, winch claw log turner and power up/down in the works, next will probably be a power clamp.
I wouldn't hesitate to cut your own structural timbers. Iron out the design, talk it through with your timber framer if you plan to hire it out. Assuming they plan to square rule frame it, the timber dimensions don't need to be exact once dry (or green).
You'll want to box/center the heart (pith) and/or cut it out of the timbers to reduce stress - align your first cuts parallel to the pith.
Thank you, this is good information. If I do decide to cut the structural timbers myself I like the idea mentioned in the thread about cutting them bigger than needed, drying, then recutting to size. I can see a lot of merit in that.
I'm a little jealous of your equipment list! Impressed with a 40 k pound excavator! I know a dealer that has a John Deere 160 coming off lease soon that he claims he will make me a deal on. That would make clearing the site much easier! Something tells me it won't work out the way I want it too though.
Thanks, it's an older Case Drott 40. I bought it to build the house - lot work/septic 24 years ago. I used it to dig our 2.5 acre pond a couple years ago.
Doesn't owe me a dime, if you can justify the expense go for it. For clearing/stump and rock work a thumb makes it twice as capable. I built a mechanical one for it, hydraulic is even better but not a must have. Take a look at older bigger machines 50K plus that need a low bed to move - more capable and cheaper as they can't be moved on a tag a long.
Dave, I'm too new to this sawing addiction to offer much advice. But, being so close by, I thought I'd throw out a quick "Howdy, neighbor".
My friend owns the mill. I do a lot, maybe most, of the sawing. I'm sure he would not mind a visit, if you have some time. I'm ten miles north of Harrisonburg. The mill is west of Broadway.
Quote from: Digger Don on April 18, 2023, 07:08:22 AM
Dave, I'm too new to this sawing addiction to offer much advice. But, being so close by, I thought I'd throw out a quick "Howdy, neighbor".
My friend owns the mill. I do a lot, maybe most, of the sawing. I'm sure he would not mind a visit, if you have some time. I'm ten miles north of Harrisonburg. The mill is west of Broadway.
Thank you, I appreciate the offer and I would like to take you up on it in the future. I'm about 30 minutes from Broadway.
I'll message you my contact information and maybe next time y'all plan on running the mill you can let me know.
Thanks again! I really appreciate the opportunity to learn.
Hi Dave, Lots of good advice above. I wrote up some information a while back (last month) that might be helpful. I posted it on my website and will share it here;
Sawmill Tools and EquipmentMost Basic Tools Required
- Chainsaw & backup chainsaw
- Cant Hook or PV Hook
- Pick Up Truck
- Heavy duty bar
Drying and storage facilities are also needed. Postprocessed wood must be dried before use. Lumber is typically air dried in an open or sheltered area. However, some owners have invested in building a kiln, solar or otherwise. When all costs are considered, the cost to operate per board foot ranged from $.01 to more than $.50 and averages around $.15. Around 50 percent of small operation owners process between 1,000 and 20,000 board feet per year, while around 17 percent process more than 100,000 board feet. Research has shown that the optimal scale of production for the average sawmill, where profits are maximized without increasing costs, is around 75,000 board feet.
(https://sawmillfinder.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/0_181_652_245.81149425287_R_S_C_Big_log-870x586-5.jpg)
Portable Sawmilling Tools
Commonly used for a sawmill service
Some additional equipment is needed to support a portable sawmill operation, whether for a hobby or an enterprise. Chainsaws, pickup trucks, and tractors are the machinery most commonly used with a sawmill. ATVs are sometimes used as a smaller, less expensive alternative to a tractor. Some operators may also use mules or horses for transporting logs to a central location, especially on sites where minimal disturbance is a priority. Fetching arches, skidding cones, motorized winches, grapple loaders, and trailers may also be used to maneuver logs. A few portable sawmill operators may even use skidders and excavators with tree cutting attachments. However, these require a much higher capital investment than the other tools require.
I have been doing research on different portable sawmill topics, along with using my many years of experience to write up information that I hope will help others looking for these types of topics. You can find this post here; Link deleted by Admin, Refer to posting rules at bottom of every page
Some excerpts credited to Alabama A&M & Auburn Universities (https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/forestry/milling-dimensions-characteristics-of-portable-sawmill-owners-and-operators/)
Thanks TreeBones! I appreciated this information and I will visit your website to learn more. Fortunately I have most of the small equipment and tools that I will need, its the big stuff that I'm faced with now and I would like to make informed decisions rather than shooting in the dark. All of this information is extremely helpful as I am envisioning some of the challenges that I will need to overcome.
One of the challenges that I'm faced with is to saw at my home or at my remote property. My remote property doesn't have electricity or running water (although neighboring properties do). Right now I'm thinking of getting a trailer mill and start sawing at my home during the learning phase. Then, once I've learned and become more proficient, move the mill to where it will likely stay. However, this will require equipment at two locations for moving the logs.
Depending on the terrain of your property you can skid logs with your truck and parbuckle logs (with ramps and cable) on to a trailer. You can find videos on YouTube. It's pretty simple and reduces the amount of tools you need to use your sawmill. You can then use the same technique to get them on your mill. I designed my ramps to fit my mill and my trailer. At home I was able to use my riding mower to parbuckle them on the mill.
A couple of things to consider are security, support, and storage. Sawmills can be maintenance intensive. Although all of my mills "can" be portable, I much prefer to saw at my farm because all of my maintenance and repair equipment is nearby, and the location is secure.
If you don't have it already, you might want to consider constructing some type of storage / maintenance shed first on the property so that you can secure your mill, tractor / backhoe / skid loader when you're not there, and then move the mill afterward.
Depending upon the log size, a farm tractor with forks or grapple would allow you to have a piece of equipment at the property for maintaining roads, etc, and you could have the backhoe / skid loader stored at your home for log and lumber handling.
Typically farm tractor FEL's will have 70% of the lifting capacity of a similar HP skid steer.
Quote from: JRWoodchuck on April 19, 2023, 10:36:03 AM
Depending on the terrain of your property you can skid logs with your truck and parbuckle logs (with ramps and cable) on to a trailer. You can find videos on YouTube. It's pretty simple and reduces the amount of tools you need to use your sawmill. You can then use the same technique to get them on your mill. I designed my ramps to fit my mill and my trailer. At home I was able to use my riding mower to parbuckle them on the mill.
Thanks. I have some relatively flat spots, but most of the property is mountain. The build site that will need to be cleared is one of the flat spots so initial milling might enable this strategy. Future log harvesting will not be so easy. I don't plan on taking many trees outside of the build area, but I do keep a close eye on trees that may be dying that I will cut for lumber.
Quote from: scsmith42 on April 19, 2023, 10:40:17 AM
A couple of things to consider are security, support, and storage. Sawmills can be maintenance intensive. Although all of my mills "can" be portable, I much prefer to saw at my farm because all of my maintenance and repair equipment is nearby, and the location is secure.
If you don't have it already, you might want to consider constructing some type of storage / maintenance shed first on the property so that you can secure your mill, tractor / backhoe / skid loader when you're not there, and then move the mill afterward.
Depending upon the log size, a farm tractor with forks or grapple would allow you to have a piece of equipment at the property for maintaining roads, etc, and you could have the backhoe / skid loader stored at your home for log and lumber handling.
Typically farm tractor FEL's will have 70% of the lifting capacity of a similar HP skid steer.
Yes sir, this is also a concern. Although I haven't had an issue with theft in the past (when I left my tractor there for a few weeks at a time), it is a big consideration for me. It is possible that I could store equipment in a neighboring property's garage, but I can't count on that being available for a long period of time. I'll have to figure out how to get a building out there and go ahead and get electric and water going, it would probably be the correct course of action.
Dave--a bit far from you but a purdy-lookin' LT 30 for sale on C-list NH for $ 11,500. Good luck with your search. Best, Rob.
Quote from: 78NHTFY on April 19, 2023, 11:55:58 AM
Dave--a bit far from you but a purdy-lookin' LT 30 for sale on C-list NH for $ 11,500. Good luck with your search. Best, Rob.
Thanks. Yeah, that's quite a ways from me, but I appreciate the heads-up.
One thing about putting the house on precious flat space. Within reason, the house doesn't care. You want flat around, beside, in front of, or behind, push the house over the brow of the hill and keep the flat space open.
QuoteI do keep a close eye on trees that may be dying that I will cut for lumber.
One of the reasons for independent third party grading is if, and then what, happens when you realize the pile of timbers you sawed from those trees isn't what you assumed it was. Those trees are firewood or non structural. The recyclers saw that tree in trouble long before you did. Live trees are structure, for most of it pretty much the best live trees. If the saw is at your current home and I just sensed tree hugging tendencies about the new farm it might make more sense to buy logs locally, dry and work the timbers and then take them up. Any number of possibilities. I have the oldest woods in the neighborhood, I have bought logs from next door. I am a tree hugger :D.
We have 300+ acres. Most of it is hardwoods. We love our trees. We are very selective on what gets cut.
I'd rather buy logs than cut our trees too!
I was looking at some beautiful veneer poplar today, all standing on my farm, then I walked over to the Lull and grabbed a grapple full of purchased logs to bring to the sawmill. Mine stand as long as someone else wants to sell theirs.
I just cleared a few acres not too far south from where you are I believe. Grader wanted to haul the logs and brush out at my expense. He would then sell what he could to a local mill. Everyday practice. I have a sawmill and some small equipment. Putting in an OWB. I had all the mess left. Its a bit overwhelming. Some days im thrilled to have it and others Im frustrated by it. The grading contractor has become my friend. We work together now for mutual benefit. Just talking about things frankly goes a long way. Sometimes its hard to see the forest for trees as my dear old grandaddy used to say. Dont let the excitement of the new project cloud the big picture as I did. Its nice to hire out the stuff you cant handle and use the stuff you can. Its like everything else in life , you have to find a balance that works for you. Hard to see in the beginning but there is a happy medium. Take your time and figure it out. There will be plenty for you to do on the property. As always JMTC enjoy the ride!!
Quote from: Don P on April 19, 2023, 08:45:17 PM
One thing about putting the house on precious flat space. Within reason, the house doesn't care. You want flat around, beside, in front of, or behind, push the house over the brow of the hill and keep the flat space open.
QuoteI do keep a close eye on trees that may be dying that I will cut for lumber.
One of the reasons for independent third party grading is if, and then what, happens when you realize the pile of timbers you sawed from those trees isn't what you assumed it was. Those trees are firewood or non structural. The recyclers saw that tree in trouble long before you did. Live trees are structure, for most of it pretty much the best live trees. If the saw is at your current home and I just sensed tree hugging tendencies about the new farm it might make more sense to buy logs locally, dry and work the timbers and then take them up. Any number of possibilities. I have the oldest woods in the neighborhood, I have bought logs from next door. I am a tree hugger :D.
Yes, in that moment I wasn't talking about sawing lumber for the house build, I'm talking about after that. That lumber would be used for all sorts of out buildings like horse run-ins, a blacksmithing building, rustic furniture, etc... I'm a tree hugger too! I've planted thousands of trees in my lower pasture and on the adjacent properties.
I do have a dead flat lower pasture, but it is absolutely not where I'm going to build. The pasture is beside the road and does have some potential for flooding.
Quote from: SawyerTed on April 19, 2023, 08:56:18 PM
We have 300+ acres. Most of it is hardwoods. We love our trees. We are very selective on what gets cut.
I'd rather buy logs than cut our trees too!
It certainly is something that I could do, but I'm not in this for commercial purposes. I will only saw logs for my personal use.
Quote from: taylorsmissbeehaven on April 19, 2023, 09:40:11 PM
I just cleared a few acres not too far south from where you are I believe. Grader wanted to haul the logs and brush out at my expense. He would then sell what he could to a local mill. Everyday practice. I have a sawmill and some small equipment. Putting in an OWB. I had all the mess left. Its a bit overwhelming. Some days im thrilled to have it and others Im frustrated by it. The grading contractor has become my friend. We work together now for mutual benefit. Just talking about things frankly goes a long way. Sometimes its hard to see the forest for trees as my dear old grandaddy used to say. Dont let the excitement of the new project cloud the big picture as I did. Its nice to hire out the stuff you cant handle and use the stuff you can. Its like everything else in life , you have to find a balance that works for you. Hard to see in the beginning but there is a happy medium. Take your time and figure it out. There will be plenty for you to do on the property. As always JMTC enjoy the ride!!
Thanks. This isn't something I'm blindly going into. I've had a forest management plan in place for many years. The forester recommended a select cut harvest long ago but I don't want someone coming in and making a huge mess. I'm also mindful of the canopy. We've had an infestation of Japanese stilt grass and the tree cover has helped keep it out of the woods. But if trees are too close, then it inhibits growth and affects tree quality. That creates opportunities to harvest good quality trees while also supporting the overall forest ecosystem.
Your cattle will take care of that silt grass problem for you and they will love you for it.
Quote from: Southside on April 20, 2023, 08:48:43 AM
Your cattle will take care of that silt grass problem for you and they will love you for it.
Yes. I've been somewhat successful at keeping it off of my property, but it is a real challenge. I generally try to stay away from chemical application so mechanical prevention has been my primary strategy, and it is a tough path to go down compared to chemical treatment. My old logging roads are the battlefield, just enough sun to support stilt grass establishment. If I could figure out a way to keep goats confined to the logging roads that might be a good treatment method.
Part of my habitat project was planting native warm season grasses, legumes, and wildflowers in my pasture. I believe that the native grasses prevented establishment of stilt grass. The cattle will certainly appreciate the native grasses, legumes, and wildflowers.
I let mine hammer the low ground where the silt grass has come in, and the seed bank responds with better grasses each time, just moved a group off and they wiped it clean, already have blade grasses coming back.
Quote from: Southside on April 20, 2023, 10:22:35 AM
I let mine hammer the low ground where the silt grass has come in, and the seed bank responds with better grasses each time, just moved a group off and they wiped it clean, already have blade grasses coming back.
Awesome. It is nice having your food do a lot of work for you. My native grasses were a pretty big investment, but they are paying dividends over time. By the time I get a small herd of steers in the pasture it will have been 15 years of soil re-establishment.