I'm not being dramatic I swear. I own a fair amount of land and bought myself a Norwood sawmill. Everyone told me it was a gold mine my whole life so I believed it.
Last year I milled a bunch of spruce to learn my mill with a plan of cutting pine for big money. Big mistake.
Fighting the pine beetles and black marks appears impossible. I've tried a bunch of stuff and in the end I more or less lose half my boards. It's black right off my mill, I'm stickering my wood and trying for it not to happen trust me.
I keep trying to convince myself it will work out but when you have hundreds of black boards you're embarrassed of and hundreds of good ones from the middle everyone wants for free, its frustrating. I've tried planing them. I've tried spraying them with pine sol. I've considered painting them. I've considered burning them. Any advice may help. Thanks.
I'm not the one you want advice from. They will be along a bit later. But, welcome to the Forum. I'd say don't be ashamed of it. It sounds like your boards have lots of character! One thing I've learned though, there is a lot more to turning logs into lumber, than it would appear.
Welcome to the Forum.
Sad to hear you are hitting some bumps getting going.
There's bound to be something to do besides quit.
Can you give some details regarding log handling and condition prior to sawing? And can you give some details on how lumber is handled and stored off the mill?
Spruce is one of the most difficult woods to saw flat.
Pine is easy.
It would be helpful to know your geographical location, this can be included in your profile.
Every sawyer sympathizes with the feeling to nuke the sawmill sometimes.
Welcome to the forum. I see you are brand new, so I wonder if you have done any reading here yet? Using the search tool can find you a lot of info related to your issue. Other folks will come along eventually to give you some solid info. But in order to do that, we will need a lot more detail. Photos will be very helpful.
Are you covering this wood after stickering? Are your stickers the same species as the boards. Is this black stuff present on the surfaces when you cut them? How Long have the logs been sitting before milling? The devil is always in the details. We need details because diagnosing over the internet is tough as it is, but without details, it's impossible.
Whoever told you that sawmill is a gold mine had most likely never run and supported one. You can make good money, but you earn every penny. You can make a million with one, but you'd have to start with 2 million. :D The learning curve is steep. Read around here and you might save yourself a lot of grief down the road.
The smart guys will chime in when some of those details are revealed.
If you are doing it mostly for the money, I would give up.
If you are doing it mostly because you enjoy it -- the challenge, the smell and look of fresh wood grain, being out with nature, getting in touch with your land... -- I would not give up.
But I would say that about any kind of work. And while I am not an experienced sawyer, my experience is that whatever the endeavor, there are more significant challenges coming down the pike.
I was considering bee keeping: I went to a class, and the highly experienced bee keeping instructor said, "Don't try this unless you can't not try this. It's too hard. It's too expensive. There's too many failure modes. You can only be successful at this if you can't not do it." I do not have bees and I'm ok with it.
Welcome to the forum, what model Norwood did you get? I am by no means an expert but I do enjoy the milling. From your one picture it looks like you are doing ok but your stacking needs changed. For the black on pine or spruce just spray it with a mild bleach solution. Try covering you wood stacks to keep rain off of it too. Not a tarp a structure with a roof.
Got to Youtube and watch every video on Hobby Hardwoods. Then watch the 5 or 10 more times. After that you may not be getting rich but you will make a much better product and enjoy yourself more.
The lumber on your rack looks good.
Is the black on the remaining lumber mildew/mold?
I see you been a member for 10 years.
And have spent 19 minutes on The Forum. :(
I have a sawmill, but do not sell lumber.
I have sold logs to the sawmill. I have a tractor with a 3 pt winch and I use to cut down trees and sell logs.
But that is hard to do too, if cutting a truck load. Those mills like the logs fresh and when I was cutting logs and working a full time job, does not leave much time for the wife.
There is a member that trucks his own logs to the sawmill. That would work better for me. Cut 10 trees and haul it to the mill.
But there are members that sell lumber and make money at it.
Just like all walnut trees are worth $10,000. ::)
How long are you logs lying around before you saw them? How long is your lumber dead stacked before stickering? Are you getting good air flow through your lumber stacks?
Bees are cheap, you can even get paid to get into them. Start with swarms, you can set swarm traps and catch them. In the spring folks will pay to have you come and remove swarms, if you screw up and the hive fails all you have lost is some time and gas. I started with boxed bees and lost every single one for a couple of years, then I learned about swarms, the fact they have reproduced early in the season with no human input means they are adapted and are survivors, unlike the soft, friendly, inbred, boxed bees out there.
Back to the sawmill. The only fight you will always loose is the one you quit.
Quote from: championyouk on October 17, 2023, 04:09:06 PMFighting the pine beetles and black marks appears impossible. I've tried a bunch of stuff and in the end I more or less lose half my boards. It's black right off my mill,
Sounds like you are trying to salvage beetle killed trees? The beetles have killed the tree, probably when stressed by drought or overcrowding in the forest. Fungus and staining soon sets in with pine (it's not very durable). A stained log is going to produce stained boards. Then pine is basically a "commodity" wood, not high value unless it's something really special. If you have no market for stained wood, push those into a pile and just let them rot.
Do you have healthier trees to harvest? Get them before they actually die and stain, which will produce better wood, and still allow fresh regrowth of new trees. Also time of year can make a difference to staining. Warm humid weather means slow drying but fast fungus growth, even fresh pine can stain before you can get it air dry. Many in Nth America prefer to saw in Winter because cold stops the fungus, and the wood gets partly dry before the weather warms up.
If it's black off the mill as you say, then it's black in the log, and that means the logs have already significantly degraded. If they have bugs too, then that's strike 2 if you want to practice sawing, but strike 3 if you are wanting to sell them.
It's a hard lesson to learn, but a sawmill can't fix moldy, buggy logs.
You can't make good lumber of bad logs, no more than you can make good steak out of moldy hamburger.
I would say your first step is to stop sawing and start sorting. Clean, white, non degraded logs go into one pile, all the others go into the other, which is pretty close to the burn pit.
It's a bad day at the sawmill. I've had them, and all you can do is walk off or wade in.
Quote from: kkcomp on October 17, 2023, 06:42:51 PMGot to Youtube and watch every video on Hobby Hardwoods. Then watch the 5 or 10 more times. After that you may not be getting rich but you will make a much better product and enjoy yourself more.
I agree, I know the owner of that company, what was it? "Hobby Hardwoods?" He's kind of a crotchety old smart aleck, but he tries to tell it like it is...
. . . and he just did.
You said a couple of things that says a lot to me. First you mentioned that the logs were beetle killed. This tells me that the beetles have brought bacteria into the logs and they are going to have stain in them before you even put them on the mill. Second you mentioned they were stained coming off of the mill. If this is true than they are not going to turn bright as they air dry. In looking at your one picture in your gallery, I would also recommend doing your stacks a little different to increase air flow. Mainly putting it in a area with more air flow and in a narrow stack, no more than 4 ft wide. You seem to have your scraps piled just to the left of the lumber and that is reducing the air flow through your lumber. Also keep all the grass and weeds short in the area so they don't restrict your air flow. All of this is worthless if the logs are stained before or as you sawed them. The stain is already there and will only get worse during the drying.
Get creative. I had a nice cherry log. 22 in at the butt. When I opened it up there were white flecks the the size of my thumb nail every few inches.. I tell folks that is rare snowflake cherry.
I cut fore the love of the game so advising folks on how to get rich at it isn't what I can do. Dan
Quote from: YellowHammer on October 17, 2023, 08:13:26 PM
If it's black off the mill as you say, then it's black in the log, and that means the logs have already significantly degraded. If they have bugs too, then that's strike 2 if you want to practice sawing, but strike 3 if you are wanting to sell them.
It's a hard lesson to learn, but a sawmill can't fix moldy, buggy logs.
You can't make good lumber of bad logs, no more than you can make good steak out of moldy hamburger.
I would say your first step is to stop sawing and start sorting. Clean, white, non degraded logs go into one pile, all the others go into the other, which is pretty close to the burn pit.
It's a bad day at the sawmill. I've had them, and all you can do is walk off or wade in.
Quote from: kkcomp on October 17, 2023, 06:42:51 PMGot to Youtube and watch every video on Hobby Hardwoods. Then watch the 5 or 10 more times. After that you may not be getting rich but you will make a much better product and enjoy yourself more.
I agree, I know the owner of that company, what was it? "Hobby Hardwoods?" He's kind of a crotchety old smart aleck, but he tries to tell it like it is...
Love your videos Yellow Hammer. Thank you for taking the time to make them. I pick up something new in each one everytime I watch them. Even if the guy making them is a crotchety old smart aleck.
Wait..... Is @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) the guy on Hobby Hardwoods? I looked at profiles and they don't make that obvious, but I'm a blockhead, so it needs to be made obvious. Both are in Alabama, so that's a big clue.
Quote from: Ianab on October 17, 2023, 07:41:56 PM
Quote from: championyouk on October 17, 2023, 04:09:06 PMFighting the pine beetles and black marks appears impossible. I've tried a bunch of stuff and in the end I more or less lose half my boards. It's black right off my mill,
Sounds like you are trying to salvage beetle killed trees? The beetles have killed the tree, probably when stressed by drought or overcrowding in the forest. Fungus and staining soon sets in with pine (it's not very durable). A stained log is going to produce stained boards. Then pine is basically a "commodity" wood, not high value unless it's something really special. If you have no market for stained wood, push those into a pile and just let them rot.
Do you have healthier trees to harvest? Get them before they actually die and stain, which will produce better wood, and still allow fresh regrowth of new trees. Also time of year can make a difference to staining. Warm humid weather means slow drying but fast fungus growth, even fresh pine can stain before you can get it air dry. Many in Nth America prefer to saw in Winter because cold stops the fungus, and the wood gets partly dry before the weather warms up.
This is 100% what is happening to me. Everything you said is correct. My grandfather would say to not cut pine in the summer. I'm in NB Canada and the humidity is high. I guess im salvaging but honestly didnt realize it when cutting. The stains are already there but most don't believe that. I would have switched to a different species if I didn't just cut the 100 logs. All I do is kill the worms and beetles. You can hear them munching away.
None of this happened with the 100 spruce logs. I have so many of these that around around 25 inch base on my land and it's a shame
Quote from: YellowHammer on October 17, 2023, 08:13:26 PM
If it's black off the mill as you say, then it's black in the log, and that means the logs have already significantly degraded. If they have bugs too, then that's strike 2 if you want to practice sawing, but strike 3 if you are wanting to sell them.
It's a hard lesson to learn, but a sawmill can't fix moldy, buggy logs.
You can't make good lumber of bad logs, no more than you can make good steak out of moldy hamburger.
I would say your first step is to stop sawing and start sorting. Clean, white, non degraded logs go into one pile, all the others go into the other, which is pretty close to the burn pit.
It's a bad day at the sawmill. I've had them, and all you can do is walk off or wade in.
Quote from: kkcomp on October 17, 2023, 06:42:51 PMGot to Youtube and watch every video on Hobby Hardwoods. Then watch the 5 or 10 more times. After that you may not be getting rich but you will make a much better product and enjoy yourself more.
I agree, I know the owner of that company, what was it? "Hobby Hardwoods?" He's kind of a crotchety old smart aleck, but he tries to tell it like it is...
That all sounds pretty accurate to me. I've separated the bad ones but they just keep degrading as you said. I pushed through the first half hoping I screwed something up but during the next 150 boards realized it was in the log. Anything close to the bark layer is already black. Dang rotten burger trees
Quote from: thecfarm on October 17, 2023, 07:21:17 PM
I see you been a member for 10 years.
And have spent 19 minutes on The Forum. :(
I have a sawmill, but do not sell lumber.
I have sold logs to the sawmill. I have a tractor with a 3 pt winch and I use to cut down trees and sell logs.
But that is hard to do too, if cutting a truck load. Those mills like the logs fresh and when I was cutting logs and working a full time job, does not leave much time for the wife.
There is a member that trucks his own logs to the sawmill. That would work better for me. Cut 10 trees and haul it to the mill.
But there are members that sell lumber and make money at it.
Just like all walnut trees are worth $10,000. ::)
I signed up when I was enquiring about sawmills but yes i am new. I've cut tractor trailer loads of spruce and sent them to the mill. They give 1500 dollars for 15 cords. I figured the sawmill should make a few dollars more.
Quote from: DanMc on October 18, 2023, 11:37:54 AM
Wait..... Is @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) the guy on Hobby Hardwoods? I looked at profiles and they don't make that obvious, but I'm a blockhead, so it needs to be made obvious. Both are in Alabama, so that's a big clue.
smiley_wavy
Yeah, it's me. Since I'm a naturally shy, quiet and "blend into the crowd" kind of guy, I get embarrassed by all the Paparazzi that follows me and Chip everywhere. Thanks for watching my videos.
Spray them with Borate or brush it on -- they need to be treated to kill the bugs.
'Blue Stained Pine' and 'Bullet Pine' can sell well in the right environment and presented well.
Please show us pics -- hard to say what 'black' is or why it's that way without seeing the pic.
CustomerSawyer is 100% right (and sawn more lumber than most other 10 people): air movement, air movement, air movement
I've milled old pine logs that were very stained, so much so they were marbled with it and they were AWESOME! Dried them right and made all manner of beautiful things including window trim, doors, tables etc.
So, my guess is you need to treat the wood ASAP to kill the bugs, mill the logs asap in sellable widths and dry them PROPERLY (outside, on the shady side of a building in the summer, with LOTS of air movement running through the stacks both through the sides and the ends! Only cover the top like a roof and sticker that above the last layer too. I air dry all my pine and never have an issue even with beetles trying my patience ;)
Yellowhammer knows what he's talking about so I agree, watch his channel but remember he's mostly milling hardwoods so may do things a little different than what you might do milling softwoods (just bear that in mind).
Show the pics!
Also, you ain't getting rich owning a sawmill LOL except maybe rich in lumber and sawdust.
Quote from: YellowHammer on October 18, 2023, 02:51:56 PMI get embarrassed by all the Paparazzi that follows me and Chip everywhere. Thanks for watching my videos.
Wow, this forum is filled with famous people, with Hobby Hardwood and @OlJarhead (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12463) here. I'm surprised they still let me in. Now I'm wondering if @Northwest Sawyer is lurking in the shadows here.
Seriously, I am grateful that there is such a depth of knowledge here to help the noobs. And then there's the magician!
LOL I wouldn't go that far ;)
But yes, there are people here that are amazing and experienced beyond reconning (and I'm not amongst them when it comes to the experience they have!!!!) It would take all day to list them all and I've learned from ALL of them!
I don't think Jason (Northwest Sawyer) is on here though. I've tried to get him over here but he's a busy guy ;) Heck, aren't we all (I can spend 40hrs a week editing, in fact I'm editing now and just saw this as FF is often there in the background).
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 18, 2023, 03:10:01 PM
Spray them with Borate or brush it on -- they need to be treated to kill the bugs.
'Blue Stained Pine' and 'Bullet Pine' can sell well in the right environment and presented well.
Please show us pics -- hard to say what 'black' is or why it's that way without seeing the pic.
CustomerSawyer is 100% right (and sawn more lumber than most other 10 people): air movement, air movement, air movement
I've milled old pine logs that were very stained, so much so they were marbled with it and they were AWESOME! Dried them right and made all manner of beautiful things including window trim, doors, tables etc.
So, my guess is you need to treat the wood ASAP to kill the bugs, mill the logs asap in sellable widths and dry them PROPERLY (outside, on the shady side of a building in the summer, with LOTS of air movement running through the stacks both through the sides and the ends! Only cover the top like a roof and sticker that above the last layer too. I air dry all my pine and never have an issue even with beetles trying my patience ;)
Yellowhammer knows what he's talking about so I agree, watch his channel but remember he's mostly milling hardwoods so may do things a little different than what you might do milling softwoods (just bear that in mind).
Show the pics!
Also, you ain't getting rich owning a sawmill LOL except maybe rich in lumber and sawdust.
I don't need to get rich id just like to make some money with it honestly man. The gold mine thing was just what my uncle said who has one up the road. He owned a power company and sold it so milling wasn't his priority as much as he likes to think.
I'm not very good at the site yet. When I try to add photos here I just end up reposting them to my album I think. I have pictures of a fresh tree I did today. Honestly a few of the people who have replied hit it on the head. Most people just assume I'm dumb and don't sticker wood lol
Borate products such as Tim-Bor are used to target Powder Post Beetles which should be of no concern with softwood species. Hardwood and especially the sapwood can be very susceptible to PPB damage. Oak, Ash, Sycamore, and Poplar are examples that need Borate as it is sawed.
Your lumber probably also has Ambrosia Beetles already which will leave small holes with a pyramid of sawdust as they exit the lumber as it dries. Don't be concerned about them because heat/sterilizing is the only way to kill them. They can not live in dry lumber so they are exiting.
QuoteWhen I try to add photos here I just end up reposting them to my album I think.
Your pics are in your gallery, and you can access your gallery easily where you will see where you can link them directly to your posts. When you click on the blue highlighted bar, you will see in the heading "my gallery". Go there and get your pics. Give a shout if any of those steps don't work for you or you run into an obstacle.
Quote from: Magicman on October 18, 2023, 06:06:58 PM
Borate products such as Tim-Bor are used to target Powder Post Beetles which should be of no concern with softwood species. Hardwood and especially the sapwood can be very susceptible to PPB damage. Oak, Ash, Sycamore, and Poplar are examples that need Borate as it is sawed.
Your lumber probably also has Ambrosia Beetles already which will leave small holes with a pyramid of sawdust as they exit the lumber as it dries. Don't be concerned about them because heat/sterilizing is the only way to kill them. They can not live in dry lumber so they are exiting.
I'm going to have to look into those chemicals. I definitely come across some of the little pyramids with the holes.
I didn't know Borate wouldn't work on pine borders! Home Defense max does but only once out of the wood. Drying it fast has been the best for me
Borate will work on anything that eats wood, to my knowledge.
20 Mule Team borax detergent mixed into hot water to dissolve it well always worked good for me. The only problem is it leaches back out of the wood if it gets wet.
QuoteHome Defence .ax dies but only once out of the wood.
what is this doing?
I think you need to get borate on the wood BEFORE the bugs move in. Unless it's applied as pressure treatment it only treats the surface layer of the wood. This is still useful because any bug eggs that are then laid near the surface get poisoned as soon as they hatch and start munching. If the bugs are already deep in the wood, not much use. Then you need heat treatment to cook them.
I went and looked at your gallery. Those boards don't look to bad to me as far as black or blue stain. They have a little but not much. The small holes in the would is ambrosia beetles. They will leave as the wood dries. They don't like it when the lumber dries much below 30 percent. That big piece of fish bait will mostly be on the jacket boards and not much to worry about either. The only other bug that will get in pine is a termite. Don't know if you need to worry about that or not. I've never had PPB get in my pine.
LOL Beenthere -- lots of typos (dang phone). Meant to say Home Defense Max DOES work on the surface.
I had some live edge stuff with bark on the edges still that pine boring beetles got into. The wood dried, they didn't come out, brought it home (unbeknownst to me that they were in there) and my son-in-law said "what's that sound?" sure enough, they were finally eating there way out with plenty of chaff. I sprayed with with HDM and it killed ALL of them.
Most of the wood was fine, I just needed to trim it back from the edges and lost the live edge.
That's only happened once to me and I later learned that I was milling in the perfect season for the bugs to lay there eggs. I was also told never to leave pine slash piles in April or May in my area as they will move in.
Greetings from Nova Scotia!
A link on posting photos https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100194.0 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100194.0)
Quote from: YellowHammer on October 18, 2023, 02:51:56 PM
Quote from: DanMc on October 18, 2023, 11:37:54 AM
Wait..... Is @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) the guy on Hobby Hardwoods? I looked at profiles and they don't make that obvious, but I'm a blockhead, so it needs to be made obvious. Both are in Alabama, so that's a big clue.
smiley_wavy
Yeah, it's me. Since I'm a naturally shy, quiet and "blend into the crowd" kind of guy, I get embarrassed by all the Paparazzi that follows me and Chip everywhere. Thanks for watching my videos.
We can't believe it either.
Quote from: championyouk on October 18, 2023, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: thecfarm on October 17, 2023, 07:21:17 PM
I see you been a member for 10 years.
And have spent 19 minutes on The Forum. :(
I have a sawmill, but do not sell lumber.
I have sold logs to the sawmill. I have a tractor with a 3 pt winch and I use to cut down trees and sell logs.
But that is hard to do too, if cutting a truck load. Those mills like the logs fresh and when I was cutting logs and working a full time job, does not leave much time for the wife.
There is a member that trucks his own logs to the sawmill. That would work better for me. Cut 10 trees and haul it to the mill.
But there are members that sell lumber and make money at it.
Just like all walnut trees are worth $10,000. ::)
I signed up when I was enquiring about sawmills but yes i am new. I've cut tractor trailer loads of spruce and sent them to the mill. They give 1500 dollars for 15 cords. I figured the sawmill should make a few dollars more.
Per the computer (when I typed in cord to board feet conversion factor) I got
1 Cord = 1535.99999993911 Board Feet.So if my math is correct that equates to .0651 canadian $'s per board feet or approx. .0475 US $'s per bdft.Does that pay for the maintenance and depreciation on the machinery to harvest it?GAB
No way 1500 board feet will come out of a cord. 500 is the standard estimate.
Doing the math there would be 1536 bf if in a cord if there was no slabs, no saw kerf and no air gap between the logs. Around here it's 500 bf per cord or close. Steve
Maybe try some of the better stained boards to a local auction house and auction them on consignment. That way your name isn't on the sale. Some guy gets a good deal on lumber for a chicken coop and you get 1/2 what it should be with, but it's better than nothing. Not to mention it puts money back in your pocket to keep moving forward. I don't saw for income. It's a hobby for me. But I did under estimate the amount of effort it takes to go from tree to 2x4. 4 years in it's been a lot of learning. Good luck and keep investing back into equipment. It pays off in the long run. Even used stuff.
Quote from: barbender on October 18, 2023, 11:26:58 PM
Borate will work on anything that eats wood, to my knowledge.
20 Mule Team borax detergent mixed into hot water to dissolve it well always worked good for me. The only problem is it leaches back out of the wood if it gets wet.
Ive also had good success with borate-based treatment (Tim-bor) to get some wood munching beetle/insect colonies under control over the years. The carpenter ants & carpenter bees don't like it either. I treated several thousand bdft (hardwood, spruce and pine) both sides and edges right before stickering stacks. It added some additional expense and handling work but it seemed like a necessary step for my situation and was effective for remedial treatment as well as preventing further infestation.
Use regular borax - disodium octoborate tetrahydrate (and hey I typed that from memory) - mixed with Boric Acid. You want about 2/3rds borax to 1/3 boric acid by weight.
Dissolve both in water until you have a saturated solution
(( And check the borax is that chemical composition because some of the EU compliant borates are different and not as soluble ))
Borax kills pretty much everything that chomps on wood.
Boric acid is an antifungal and will help with black stain and mould.
Keep sawing, perfect your craft, keep the quality up and the lead times down, and work will find you. It just doesn't happen overnight
I can't believe this thread is three pages long and there aren't any pictures of anything...
Attractive pine lumber, air dried no fans etc., Is cut from live trees felled and sawmilled in the fall and winter. That is what everyone told me when i started. Why is this not offered to beginners here?
I don't know- why didn't you offer it, Mood?
Quote from: barbender on October 29, 2023, 10:15:54 AM
I don't know- why didn't you offer it, Mood?
I am still a new member and expect you old guys to cover the basics :).
After being here for 6 years and nearly 5000 posts, I think ya lost da new guy defense. :D
Moodnacreek you ain't no greenhorn. We only got room for one old greenhorn here! ;D You coulda chimed in.
I had a lot of white pine logs that sat in an unstickered pile for 3 years. The bark had sloughed off and the beetles had been working on them. Nonetheless since I had just gotten my mill I decided to practice cutting them. Some of the logs had bore holes pretty deep in the wood but quite a few logs were undamaged after removing the slabs. I sawed them all into boards and advertised them for what they were and priced them accordingly. Amazingly I sold them all and folks were thrilled to get cheap locally sawn boards. You just never know how things will turn out till you give it a shot. They were all also well dried which folks like.