I just watched a how to video by a popular channel on making 2x4's.
Splitting the pith and not factoring in kerf
Yet claiming this is the best way to make "perfect" 2x4's
My point is there is a lot of mis information out there and it's sad.
Because of the misinformation I seldom watch any sawing videos and shake my head at most of what I read on fb.
The only valid source of information that I have ever found, Thanks to Jeff, is here on The Forestry Forum.
I wish FB and YouTube would "fact check" all of the sawing disinformation on their platforms.
I tend to question operations with all new equipment,especially if they can keep it looking that way...
Yes, that's why I made that video on "Spandex Sawyers" sawing logs like slicing cheese, on YouTube, which is my most viewed video.
Many YouTubers sell videos by filming themselves using a sawmill, no different than if they were using a jackhammer or pizza oven. It's just a prop to justify wearing tight clothes and looking "Old School" or "Back to Nature" or stuff like that. They have millions of subscribers and make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year doing it. Can't blame them, no more than the guys on TV who pick up an axe for the first time and build a long cabin on Discovery Channel. Except the YouTubers make more money.
On the other hand, some sawyers, like me, make their money selling the lumber they mill, and film that, making almost no money on the YouTube.
Big difference.
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 09, 2023, 03:50:26 PM
Yes, that's why I made that video on "Spandex Sawyers" sawing logs like slicing cheese, on YouTube, which is my most viewed video.
Many YouTubers sell videos by filming themselves using a sawmill, no different than if they were using a jackhammer or pizza oven. It's just a prop to justify wearing tight clothes and looking "Old School" or "Back to Nature" or stuff like that. They have millions of subscribers and make hundreds of thousands of dollars per year doing it. Can't blame them, no more than the guys on TV who pick up an axe for the first time and build a long cabin on Discovery Channel. Except the YouTubers make more money.
On the other hand, some sawyers, like me, make their money selling the lumber they mill, and film that, making almost no money on the YouTube.
Big difference.
Spandex sawyers hilarious, I know exactly the type you're talking about lol the reason they got views and not because of sawing...
I'm telling you Robert, with your knowledge and successful operation, a little spandex may be all that is keeping you from YouTube success!😁
At least the "2x4 girls" aren't really the full Spandex types. They just happen to be pretty young ladies, that may be letting their teaching get ahead of their learning🤷
I'm still very green so please don't barbecue me too much but ive split the pith quite a few times cutting Doug fir and it really hasn't done anything crazy. A lot of it has been sitting for 8-12 months. I also notice when I was researching how to avoid beam splits that unboxing helps? I was looking at some rough cut Doug fir true dimensional 6x6's that had been up for a year on a large open barn type structure that there was obviously no effort to avoid splitting the pith when it was milled and noticed cracks in the boxed piths but none on the unboxed. These were treated with diesel/motor oil mix and didn't seem to be any different on the sunny side.
Most guys aren't watching the 2x4's being sawn :D
I will give em that they do work hard .
They mean well
I saw a lot of 2x4's for single use shipping crating. I split the pith like I'm wearing spandex with zero regret😁 They are perfectly acceptable for the intended usage.
Neal, you're right, a heart centered beam will nearly always get a check.
So you're saying that if I start sawing in spandex, video myself doing it, and uploading it to YT, I can make millions!? 8)
Quote from: Nealm66 on November 09, 2023, 05:44:27 PMI was looking at some rough cut Doug fir true dimensional 6x6's that had been up for a year on a large open barn type structure that there was obviously no effort to avoid splitting the pith when it was milled and noticed cracks in the boxed piths but none on the unboxed.
That is to be expected. Boxed heart will usually develop a check, but the piece has the best chance of staying straight. Free Of Heart means the pith is not in the beam at all, and "probably" wont check or move much. But you need big logs to make beams like that. Splitting the pith usually means the beam will both check, AND move in some way, because the tension in the wood isn't balanced.
But as others say, what's acceptable depends for the end use is what matters. And what you can get away with depends on the species of wood. Doug fir for example is naturally pretty stable, and some checking in a timber doesn't have a big impact on it's load bearing. So although the beams you saw weren't perfect, they were at least "fit for purpose", as the barn was still standing.
Quote from: 4x4American on November 09, 2023, 07:34:30 PM
So you're saying that if I start sawing in spandex, video myself doing it, and uploading it to YT, I can make millions!? 8)
Worked for Ryan Reynolds. :D
Maybe take Deadpool's advice, and wear Red, so it doesn't show the blood ;)
There are some impressive videos of small automated sawmills I find very interesting. One from Nova Scotia comes to mind, using old machines and sawing small dia. logs I would hate and getting high production. Another that pops up all the time with a nice automatic mill but the guy does not know his last board thickness, How can he call himself a sawyer?
Quote from: 4x4American on November 09, 2023, 07:34:30 PM
So you're saying that if I start sawing in spandex, video myself doing it, and uploading it to YT, I can make millions!? 8)
Where in H have you been?
The very mention of Spandex and 4X4 Doug came sniffing his way back home. :D
It's good to have 4 x 4 back, even if it is about spandex.
I wonder if he had a "hurdle" to get over, in order to make it back to the forum? 😉
4x4 "D-U-G"! Welcome home!
Most of the "spandex sawyers" know exactly what they are up to dressing as they do. However, I don't think those poor girls that did the 2x4 video probably understand why they get so many views.
If you have ever seen any other videos the "girls" have done, they know.
Their dad is a logger who bought an LT15 to make it through the 2008 economic downturn. He did and the lumber business grew.
The girls decided to stay in the family business with dad, mom, and grandpa.
While I agree their sawing technique needs improvement, I admire their efforts to take the family business to a new level.
At least they are working
Quote from: SawyerTed on November 10, 2023, 06:04:33 AM
If you have ever seen any other videos the "girls" have done, they know.
Their dad is a logger who bought an LT15 to make it through the 2008 economic downturn. He did and the lumber business grew.
The girls decided to stay in the family business with dad, mom, and grandpa.
While I agree their sawing technique needs improvement, I admire their efforts to take the family business to a new level.
At least they are working
that beautiful skin and hair exposed around machinery is a little much.
Can somebody post a link or pointer to the video in question? I'd like to see what everyone is talking about here and as I don't search YT for sawing videos, I have not had the pleasure of understanding what is being discussed.
I get all my sawing info right here and don't need to go anywhere else. ;D
Tom, I send you a message with the way to find them.
ST, I don't hold anything against them or their videos (the little I've seen) other than like I said, the teaching is a bit beyond the learning.
You're right- they're working, helping with the family business. Good for them if they're making money with YouTube, too.
Maybe I'm just jealous that I never put anything out there because I don't want to open myself up to ridicule😁 And I'm not very pretty🤷 My best chance at YouTube monetization is my sidekick Walt, the black pug who rode with me daily in the forwarder. I even put his name on the door😊
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/20231109_152135.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699627303)
Walt is ready to get the views
I just asked Cedar if he was willing to wear spandex.
Barbender have you looked around here at all? :D NONE of us are very pretty (sorry, no offence folks, nothing wrong with being 'plain'). Spandex would not help our situation at all, and likely make it worse! ;D
--------
Yes, one of the girl's fanboys sent me down the right path (Thanks Ted :D) and I watched the 2x4 video and some snips of others. Personally I didn't get a negative vibe from this at all. First, I found no spandex anywhere (Guess I have to look harder?) and second the video was technically oriented without exploitive camera angles and content, I thought. She is wearing appropriate work clothes as opposed to some of the stupid outfits I have seen. Of course it was also not a comprehensive technical video as was promised and did not mention kerf or pitch. It also did not mention the control takes into account the kerf (if properly programmed) and it completely skipped over explaining that the over target cant of 8" should actually be 8-1/8" to achieve the goal stated.
Overall I saw a young lady doing her best to produce a saleable product and trying to explain how she does it. I also saw that either she still has some stuff to learn OR she needs to work on how she explains it in order to be clear and include the critical details. So yes, it's mis-leading while also being informative on a very general basis. IMHO, this is a working gal, not a pith princess.
Haha, "pith princess" I'll have to remember that one!
I thought I made clear I don't consider the 2x4 girls to be "spandex sawyers", just that they are giving advice that is beyond their experience.
There is a channel from Florida I think where it's blatantly obvious what their intent is. There are a few more who are allergic to clothing also. Don't go by their sawing technique by any means!
Spandex sawyers and bikini excavator operators and pith princesses are all very successful business models and they know their business.
They're click bait and eye candy, and they do it very well. A business model as old as humanity.
I'm not too ready to refer to them for milling advice though!
That reminds me, it's time I deleted my browser history.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 10, 2023, 10:25:16 AM
Yes, one of the girl's fanboys sent me down the right path (Thanks Ted :D) and I watched the 2x4 video and some snips of others.
"Fanboy" is in the extreme end of where I am. Yes I follow them a bit. I've already agreed their technique and knowledge needs improving. But the proof is they have both a successful sawmill business AND the YT thing going well.
Seeing young entrepreneurs trying hard is a good thing. Seeing young people willing and CHOOSING to do hard work is a good thing.
It's the retired teacher in me. I recognize motivation when I see it.
Those girls are young 20 ish, energetic and learning. I also see a bit of the "teaching beyond their learning" for sure.
They'll get there.
It's the Internet and it takes all kinds and your milage will vary. But I got to wonder about a husband that would allow his wife or daughters to be seen as "click bait". Not to disparage all the ladies doing work vids on YouTube. Some are serious and dressed for it. It's the ones not dressed for much of anything I wonder about
Yeah, I knew that 'fanboy' comment would draw you out. :D
But I am pretty much on the same page as you. The gal in the video was properly dressed for the job and was getting work done. When I see something like that I think maybe she reminds me of my daughter (who is a bit older, but still my little girl) and no, my mind doesn't focus on her physical 'attributes' but rather her message. I also agree that it is good to see young folks working and learning and moving forward with their skills. We all have stuff we have yet to learn, or re-learn. They are just at a different point in the curve.
OTOH seeing the spandex crowd causes a pretty instant click away because I know they don't have a clue. If they did, they would be wearing clothes that give them some level of protection for their jobs. I have always wondered how spandex holds up against a sawblade that uncoils in an unexpected way? ;D
Not very well😂 I know because I often wear Milwaukee "spandex" nitrile palm gloves, things would be pretty tough if that's the material I was wearing for pants😁
You know, I think we may be going about it the wrong way.. I bet if I posted a video in spandex, YT would pay be NOT to wear it again.
I can see it. Rolling in the dough! 8) 8) 8)
And I do have respect for the (admin edit) About my daughters ages and out there with cant hooks rolling logs that a large number of high school football players would be whining about. They will learn the techniques. So proud of them for not being afraid of hard work.
Doc
Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2023, 08:03:53 PM
The very mention of Spandex and 4X4 Doug came sniffing his way back home. :D
This might be right up there with Lassie Come Home.
Quote from: Jeff on November 10, 2023, 10:12:10 AM
I just asked Cedar if he was willing to wear spandex.
How is the dog bite healing? 8)
DUG, it's good to see you post. If you start posting pictures or videos of you sawing in spandex, I'm going to have to find something else to occupy my leisure time other than the FF.
As a Youtuber I'm sorry I missed this one when it came out ;)
The trouble with YT is manyfold. For example, it's easy to take a video, like Roberts, and assume it's about all logs. It's not as he pointed out to me when I commented on it ;) It's also easy to assume some girls are there to teach people something about sawmilling (not really).
YT is in it's basic form, entertainment. In fact, outside of some outliers that get lots of views do to searches etc in the end, successful YT channels provide entertainment of some kind. More often than not of the 'reality' type. Meaning that most of the really successful channels (100,000 subscribers or more and definitely those who reach the 1 million range) tell a story more than anything else. Even if the story is "I'm going to do this" then doing it and then "I did this" format which I often try to follow.
Yes, some of us do it to share with others what we've learned and few actually 'know it all' (actually NO ONE does).
The Yoga Pants channels and the 'two girls' I learned to ignore as they have nothing to do with what my channel is about. They are selling soft porn in most cases tripple L etc, or at the least "we're girls and we do this" and their stuff isn't very good - I'll bet their audience is bored older men but hey, they are making good money so who am I to question them? ;)
As for money, don't be fooled, even small channels can make decent coin if they know what they are doing. Sure, YT might only pay $5 per thousand views but a channel that gets 10,000 views per day makes $50/day and if they have affiliates and sponsors they can make ten times that. Not saying they are, but they can. A channel that gets 100,000 views a day...well you can do that math. The money is less in YT though, and more in affiliate links and sponsorships -- few realize that or take advantage of it...
However, to do that they have to work many many hours (I often edit 8 hours per day) and again, it's not about the sawmilling for most, but rather the story. Imagine working 8 hours a day editing to make just $50 a day? Well I make about $5 a day so, why do it? Right? Also, subscribers don't mean anything after 500 other than a channels potential popularity. What matters is views and long form views are worth way more than short form views.
The 'how to' channels (Roberts specially, and mine as well) have to find a balance to be successful. As in "explain how to" and do it in such a way people factually watch more than 10-20% of the video. Success means watch times that average 50% or better (so a video with a million views but only 10% watch time isn't great or a likely successful venture in the end).
Anyway, I'm going long here LOL but if anyone wanted an inside look at youtube and what it takes I'm all to happy to answer. I'm fulltime YT now. Sawing will be for myself only and I'll continue to film that and attempt to make decent videos but I'll never be caught in Yoga pants! (good thing too ;))
But remember, the vast majority of sawmilling channels are not about teaching you and I've found they are more often than not people who only got their sawmill just before starting to do YT. In fact, some popular channels started sawing and youtubing together so not exactly the Hobby Hardwoods model ;) Or Custom Sawyer who dabbled a little and decided he'd rather saw than film.
Filming take a LOT more work (Ask @Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) how often I change batteries etc and angles and how many cameras I run as he's been the recipient of my filming now a couple times)....it becomes more about how you make a youtube video than how you sawmill.
OH and I'm no sawmill expect! I'm still learning from all of you, all the time. I have less time to come here and learn mind you because I'm too budy editing my next video! That takes a lot more effort and thinking (for me) than sawing does :D
I should add that Doug Fir and Ponderosa Pine are very forgiving when it comes to splitting the pith and I've found that FOHC vs Boxed Heart in Pondo Pine is about a 50/50 split. They both twist, both check etc and both don't. I've not seen a benefit in that regards on either when milling D-Logs and have taken to milling them oversized in anticipation of having to resaw them again later as a real possibility.
I find straight logs make straight lumber and everything else is a crap shoot ;) But I've also learned to put the bend in the face as much as possible and to keep the pith/heart in one board as much as possible.
And racing stripes on your sawmill is almost as good as yoga pants on the operator :P
I can definitely see where there is a lot of work in making real videos, and ones that people would actually want to watch. I tried making videos with a Gopro in the forwarder and processor, but pretty quickly realized that the amount of editing it would take to turn them into something interesting was more than I was willing to do.
I found it too much trouble just transferring videos from my Gopro to my phone. I just want to take ideas on my phone and press send😁
I often use 4 gopros, a cell phone and a Canon digital slr 😉 and edit on my PC.
Yeah, I felt like Bon Jovi with all the cameras around me Friday. That was some cool looking wood though.
Yes that wood was awesome!
This thread has made me laugh a few times! Yep there are channels I watch for simple entertainment and some for learning. I am sure we have all saw the youtube title clip of the spandex queen holding the overly large stihl like she was actually going to saw with it...
There is also several "2 girls and a sawmill" teams out there on YT.
I don't mind watching channels for entertainment as long as they are actually doing real work such as the young red head. They are spending a lot of time building their channel. As long as they keep some decently interesting sawing videos, I will occasionally watch them. The others have done gone too far.
When they get to click baity with the titles or the still pics used in the video titles...
Then I skip over that. We call them Attention w......s around here.
Coming from the offroad race scene and being involved in chasing sponsors, internet content, you tube videos and ratings and exposure, the older I get, the more I just want to be left alone with my dog, my equipment and my mountain land!
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 09, 2023, 07:52:56 PMQuote from: 4x4American on November 09, 2023, 07:34:30 PMSo you're saying that if I start sawing in spandex, video myself doing it, and uploading it to YT, I can make millions!? 8)
Where in H have you been?
You know exactly where I've been lol- at the sawmill!!
Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2023, 08:03:53 PMThe very mention of Spandex and 4X4 Doug came sniffing his way back home. :D
hahaha well ya know, what can I say ffcheesy
Quote from: Andries on November 09, 2023, 08:41:02 PMIt's good to have 4 x 4 back, even if it is about spandex.
I wonder if he had a "hurdle" to get over, in order to make it back to the forum? 😉
haha thank ya and yep, definitely been jumping hurdles over here!
Quote from: barbender on November 10, 2023, 12:13:14 AM4x4 "D-U-G"! Welcome home!
Most of the "spandex sawyers" know exactly what they are up to dressing as they do. However, I don't think those poor girls that did the 2x4 video probably understand why they get so many views.
Thank ya thank ya!
Sorry fellas it only took me about a year to respond. I've been wrapped up in my sawmill creation over here and I got burnt out with it so just hadn't been too jazzed up to talk about it after living it all day long. Just also super busy don't take a lot of time to get on the computer box. Hope alls well, I'll be back next year around this time ffcheesy
Good to hear from you.
The easiest way to tell if a YouTuber should be considered an expert is to see if they have an actual business pretense, actively selling what they are filming. If they do not have a legitimate business webpage, they are (probably) not a legitimate trade expert. If a YouTuber says they are an expert in concrete then you should able to look them up, go to their business website and it should look like a legitimate concrete business looking for jobs, with projects of jobs they have done in the past, pricing information, contacts and scheduling information, in other words, it should look like a real business webpage looking to feed their employees and keep the business growing. If not, well, guess what, they are not a real trade business, they are just "show business."
You might also be interested to know that due to the high rates of heavy industry insurance, some YouTubers don't even have trade insurance, because it can be very high, like we all know, and that's another reason they would not have a storefront. So no insurance in their trade, so no real business. They are actors, not experts.
I'll play devils advocate: When you retire YH does that mean you can no longer be an expert.
Of course someone without a business CAN be an expert. In fact, there is nothing further from the truth (that one must have one to be so).
Anyone can be an expert at something if given enough training, experience etc to get there but a real expert would also realize no one knows everything.
Youtubers may or may not be (buyer beware).
Guess I am an old bored guy. Go Spandex!
In most cases, recognized Experts in a professional field reach that level in some way by being, or have been, in that field or business by professional capacity of some kind, either apprentice, employee, owner, manager, whatever. You say with "enough training and experience" a person becomes an expert. Of course, so who undergoes training, and gets enough experience unless they somehow were or are "in the business?" Training and experience takes money, time, and effort. Most experts I have known, from beekeepers, farmers, mechanics, lawyers, accountants, fishermen, race car drivers, furniture makers, carpenters, house builders, brick masons, blacksmiths, concrete, roofers, knife makers, shooters, riflemen, chefs, have all gotten that way by being "in the business" trade in some way. For example, you are in the "business" of sawmilling and sell your product, mobile sawmilling. You put in your dues, and reap the rewards. You film it, sure, but have a real sawmill business, with real customers, real rates, and real jobs. You have a business presence and so when you make a video, there is credibility. You are making my point.
In contrast, I'm sure you know that many YouTubers who never sell their products they make at all, and is some cases, do so on purpose because if they actually sold it, and if people found out it was junk, then they would get bad product reviews and lose their "expert" status. These people intentionally do not sell their end product for realistic fears of being found out to be hacks.
Do you have suitable business insurance for your sawmilling business? Of course you do. I'm also sure you know that there are YouTube's who do not have related business insurance although they are literally filming themselves "running a (fill in the blank) business" on YouTube. How can that be? They are actors and experts in the business of YouTube, but not "experts in the business."
To your other question, yes, in many ways, "status" is very much a perishable item, because in any professional business, whether it be engineering, dentistry, race car driving and as Mike Tyson just found out, boxing, once a person leaves a professional field, unless they maintain a way to stay current, they very well could lose "expert" status. They may be masters of old techniques, but if those techniques go stale, so do they. In many professional fields, like engineering, the day I retired, and stopped taking continuing education training, and stopped working in the environment of explosives and engineering, my certifications were lost, and so was my professional and expert status.
In some situations, when you see and hear a Yoda, you know it. He or she may be old and retired (which means they were in the business) but still talk the talk and walk the walk. Of course, rarely does Yoda wear spandex and spray themselves with water while dancing up and down in a t shirt. And Yoda did undergo decades of Jedi training, and was certainly in the business of being a Jedi, as even he had his own "Jedi Academy" business.
So I stand by my original statement, the quickest way to see if a YouTube "expert" is an expert, or maybe just worth listening to, is to see if they actually have a business presence, or professional experience, in the field they are filming.
If you don't keep up your certification in some trades, you will lose it. This is only because of the new materials and, in some cases, new machines being developed to do the job.
I have been to some sawmills in the business. They are far from professional-looking but, sell lumber.
Cutting nice lumber has some degree of skill. But in the end, it's a log. Not brain surgery.
And if one doesn't want to cut logs. Just buy lumber from someone else
market it up and resell.
Once again, that's my point. Yep, those old guys, even if not professional looking, are in the business. They have been sawing and selling lumber maybe their whole life. They have paid their dues, if they make a mistake, it hurts them in their wallet, they can't just laugh about it and make a "Best Fails" YouTube video. I wish they would make videos, they would be great to learn from.
Some may be interested to know that I heard one of the YouTube Sawmillers is potentially canceling his channel, as nobody watches his videos now that his wife is pregnant. Or maybe his priorities have changed. Gonna have to find a new spandex channel.
Sawmilling, like any trade, is a continuing education, and, in many ways, it is more fun than rocket science and I don't agree with you about the difficulty of sawmilling in today's competitive business environment. Although it is not brain surgery, it is something that requires an eye for excellence if someone wants to try to get to the top of their business, or grow their business. It can be very competitive and challenging trying to get the most money, yield, of the highest grade boards, as efficiently as possible, from a log, especially a log that has been paid for with hard earned money. I don't know of any pro, in any business, who isn't always trying to improve their skill or product, sawmilling included.
YouTube is show business and big money. Many of the people are actors, just like on TV. I hope people don't learn how to sail a boat from watching Gilligan's Island, or how to survive in the widlerness by watching Bear Grylls, or think that Mountain Men is actually real, when Eustice Conway drives a new pickup truck to "work" then gets on his costume, harnesses up his old mule, and then gets to filming.
When my dad asked a used car dealer friend of his why he had a row of clunkers on the back row, his response was, " There's a butt for every saddle."
When it comes to quality or lack of quality content on social media, the same thing applies. People are looking for different things. Some are looking for quality content, education and answers; some are looking for entertainment; some are looking for justification or vindication; some have a morbid fascination with failures of others; still others are looking for spandex...
It's hard for those with quality content to see others catering to a different audience with different motivations and values. When your values differ watch something else.
Just know, most of US know the difference between quality sawmill content and eye candy.
Just another thought.
If you asked 10 people, "What is the purpose of YouTube?"
How many different answers would you get? 5? 8? 10?
That variety of perspectives is why there's a continuum of quality content on YouTube.
QuoteYouTube is show business and big money. Many of the people are actors, just like on TV. I hope people don't learn how to sail a boat from watching Gilligan's Island, or how to survive in the widlerness by watching Bear Grylls.
Very true for the most part though only 4% of all Monetized YT channels make $12,000 a YEAR or more.
My only point was that one does not have to be 'in business' to be an 'expert.
As for me, I was never an expert. Yes I owned a business etc and yes I had several repeat customers so I like to think I had a good idea of how to mill a log properly (thanks to guys like Peter, Magic, YellowHammer, Doc and so many others here) so I tried to share what I learned but hope I never came off as an 'expert'.
And yes, I knew several channels that bought a mill and started a YT channel with ZERO knowledge or experience. Some went the spandex route becuase that gets views.
Most either died away (that $20 check from YT wasn't enough for the work they did etc) but some stuck it out and learned both sawmilling and youtubing (which might be harder).
It takes about 1 million views a month to make a living off yt income alone, that's hard to get to!
True - and YT's purpose isn't the same as those on the platform.
Youtube is in the business of making money, pure and simple.
Some of us use it to share what we've learned/know with others and some of those also appreciate that they can earn a dollar or 12 doing it (ok, I'll be honest here, I make enough to bump up against that 4% but just barely and even then, only because of my solar power and power station videos though all of that wouldn't have happened if it were not for the sawmilling content I did - and rarely get to do now.
200k-250k views a month does not make me an expert in anything though and a million plus would just mean I figured YT out -- which is the key here: understand what your viewers want and you can do well on YT - but it has nothing to do with or very little, your knowledge on a given subject but rather your ability to present it.
Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2023, 02:07:01 PMBecause of the misinformation I seldom watch any sawing videos and shake my head at most of what I read on fb.
The only valid source of information that I have ever found, Thanks to Jeff, is here on The Forestry Forum.
It's good here. Yellowhammer is an " expert " tuber. That's some good stuff right there.
On the other hand, I think most folks here can identify click bait. Some of it looks pretty good in spite of room temperature milling IQ. 🤣🤣🤣
No doubt, several people here qualify as experts in the normal term. I won't try to name them all, because I know I'd miss most of them. But, I'll throw out another definition I heard years ago. Expert (Ex-spurt): A former drip, under pressure. ffcheesy
Whether people think I'm an Expert or Ex-spurt on this Forum, or anywhere else, that't their choice. I don't make any money posting here, I'm trying to help, and people can take it any way they want. And Yes, there are people on the Forum who have businesses, experience, and skill level that put me in the "little guy" category, and I respect them more than they know.
However, many people who have never heard of the Forum hit the "sawmill wall" and get very frustrated because they know they should be able to do better, but can't, and it's mainly because they are learning from YouTube sawmill actors who have never sold a board in their life. Those are the people I am trying to help.
The most satisfying thing to me is the surprisingly many people who tell me they have been drinking the YouTube Sawmill KoolAid, have been running into the "wall" of not getting anything other than "OK" lumber then watched one or other video of mine and had a Eureka moment, figured out what was holding them back, and then their lumber quality or production rate jumped significantly. In many cases, the "secret tip" may be common knowledge here on the Forum, or not, but it never makes it to their eyes.
People know not only do I mill wood everyday, but I also buy it (we sell 54 species, there is no way I can mill and dry it all, and I guess some people on the Forum think that's backsliding, oh well, who cares), and I will always take an opportunity to compete, head to head, Owner to Owner, with some of the most well renowned pro mills in the country, ones that you probably know, West coast to East Coast and anywhere in between. Open challenge to meet my grade and price, and you'd be surprised at the mega companies who have tried and failed to meet our standards and what I and my wife (and Chip) can produce with my little Woodmizer bandmill and Nyle Kilns, and no, I'm not sponsored by either. You can't win if you do not compete, and I love to compete, I want to be the best, and put my money where my mouth is, and I must be doing something right, we sell to people all over the country, including to the company who hand picked us as their lumber supplier as they build 60 custom guitars a year for the stars invited to the Grand Ol Opry, as was as Braid Paisley and Elanis Morisett's custom guitar maker, as well as a five time world champion turkey call maker from Texas, as well as ...Anyway, case in point, Friday, I had the owner of a quite large mill, his foreman and certified grader instructor, not local, with 4 mills, sales in the US and exports overseas, personally hand deliver a load of walnut that they had hand picked for me exclusively, out of a nearly 60,000 board foot walnut run. He had heard about us, we had been working this deal for a couple months, and he showed up with one little pack of wood, 900 board foot kiln dried, hit or miss planed. Yes, his best hand picked 900 bdft out of a 60,000 bdft run, "Sales Rack Ready" as we said we wanted. So we unloaded it, went inside and he looked at the walnut we made in house and were selling, with customers there, and his face fell. We went back outside, he looked at his wood and said there was very few boards that could come off his hand picked pack and go directly onto our sales rack. Yes, correct, but that is our business niche, and what I try to teach on my videos, if people want to watch them. Anyway, this guy was a good guy, he said he gave it his best shot, and I believed him, I mean he showed up with his best people with him, and so I paid for his pack of walnut (nearly $9 per bdft, wholesale) and he asked if he "could try again if he got his guys to pick up their game." So I said sure, give it a go, in a little while. Meanwhile, during the sales day, I put his pack, still on the pallet, next to our walnut rack, and sure enough, our wood outsold his by a wide margin, (competing once again, head to head) which means I will have a few hours on the SLR and Facer, getting his wood up to our grade, which is not fun, and time consuming.
I'm telling this because the one thing I try to get across in my videos is to inspire people to get it in their minds and thought processes that people with a decent mill, and a little knowledge and care, can not only meet the grades of any professional mill, but can exceed them, and can do so while having fun and yes, can make money doing it.
Anyways, that's why I make the videos, to help people out. The video money, at my level of subscriber count, is pretty insignificant, to put it in perspective, we have 54 species of wood that we sell, from all over the world, including 45 year old ebony at $200 per bdft and did you get how much money I just spent on one pack of not great walnut, not to mention how much I have invested in walnut logs of my own, plus the packs of walnut air drying, and the walnut I have already in the rack. Then think about how much $$ I have in the other 53 species we sell. Anyway, just like with my sawing and kiln drying, I'm always trying to improve my videos, get my audio better, and my content better. But all my videos are very real, what I try to teach is very real and I am trying to pass on techniques we use to compete against the best in the county, while we are in our business prime, to the guy or girl with a sawmill, who is trying to get better, and there ain't Spandex in my videos.
And its aggravates me to no end when I see a Sawmill YouTuber Expert tell aspiring samwillers to mill a log like it's a pack of cheese and nothing can be done about the crooked lumber coming off because the "wood's just gonna do what the wood's gonna do."
More cool aid please!!
I agree with you YH, Do the best you can. And when you get to the other end of your working life you slow down, I did.
No more cutting TT loads of lumber or having 1000$$ in logs and lumber in the yard.
Now I am taking 4 months off a year or more ffcheesy
From all the years of sawing. I have a big following. No need to advertise. I been thinking of pulling my web thing too.
Education is a good thing, keep it up YH, and Good luck.
Your friend from the glacier north. ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy :thumbsup:
I always heard
An expert is someone more than 50 mi from home with a briefcase.
I don't watch many youtube sawmillers,
I have learned enough that most of them aren't going to teach me more.
I have also learned from this forum and some of the real experts here, I know nothing.
Robert I look forward to your video's, I learn a little with each one. Please keep doing them.
While some of it isn't directly applicable to a low hp manual mill with a big log on it, I still watch because the basics still count, no matter the mill
I am at the point I look at the lumber i have stacked in my barn and realise I will probably never use it all.
Then Thursday I was offered some good sized pine logs (which I don't have any of)
This Forum is where I will get most of my information and I know yall will point out the mistakes I miss. THANK YOU
Quote from: Machinebuilder on December 15, 2024, 04:55:37 PMI know yall will point out the mistakes I miss.
Ain't a mistake, just stuff that we do whenever someone it either looking ....or not. ffsmiley
I appreciate the well-done videos. Even though I was relatively proficient at my old job, I still took the opportunity to learn from my peers. I'd sometimes just pop into their classrooms or FFA practices and watch and listen. Other times, our professional organization would have "experts", usually teachers, instruct us in an area that they are known to be really good at. Some of their methods could be adapted to my style of instruction and some would not be effective for me.
At all of the projects at Jake's that I've attended, I'd usually be somewhere that I have a good view of what was going on while any lumber processing or handling was occurring. The sawmill layouts that I've seen in person and on the videos/pictures (Peter Drouin, PAmizerman, YH, Percy) have led to us changing our arrangements and I know we have more changes to make to become more efficient. Our slab handling still requires too much manual labor. We need a sky hook to hang one corner of our mill shed from so we can get rid of a pole that we continuously have to maneuver around-I have not seen one for sale on the FF.
I've been fishing for just about my whole life, but I learn from my friends and sometimes videos. A few months ago, I started putting drop shot rigs with circle hooks in guests' hands to catch bass-it has been very successful. Until about a year ago, I never even used a drop shot for bass.
The videos that wear me out are the folks that buy the new whatever and before it even loses the new car smell, they are on the tube posing as expert instructors.
I learned in my career, initially working for a large corporation and then running my own manufacturing business, that there a machine operators and there are masters of their machines. Large coil to coil rolling mills are somewhat like sawmills in my eyes. Machine operators can turn them on and make them run. Masters of their machines can fine tune the mill to make high quality material. My rolling supervisor was a Master. I would watch him in awe of how he made the equipment run. Initially I ran equipment everyday which became less and less as I got sucked into the office as we grew. At times if I could not get the material as flat and straight as I wanted I would call him over to help. He would spend a few moments looking and listening then make an adjustment and the material would flatten/straighten out perfect. "How did you know to do that?" "I could feel a slight vibration in the floor meaning the top back work roll bearing needed an increase in lubrication flow."
The machine operator (youtuber) would have kept right on rolling making inferior product. The master (Robert and Jake and others) adjusted and made material that made us well known by customers to feed into their part blanking presses.
I'm an expert of creating videos no one watches, but I'm making about $3-$4 a week! ffsmiley
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 15, 2024, 09:44:00 AMWhether people think I'm an Expert or Ex-spurt on this Forum, or anywhere else, that't their choice.
YH. I hope you did not take offense at my definition. You are definitely one of the experts that I did not call by name. Don
I love people sharing knowledge. I mean, that's the main purpose of this Forum.
I've put my hand to quite a few things over the years, where I learned by absorbing from people that knew more than me about the job, or sometimes took what I'd already learned and figured out new ways to get the job done better, faster, etc. And I'm more than happy to share what I've learned with others unless they are my direct competitors or something.
I'd feel pretty foolish putting out a video the second day I was in a machine I had not ran before and tell people all the tricks of the trade. Doesn't stop most of these "runnin' dummies" as my Grandad would probably call them😊
Maybe the pandemic created new YouTubers - some with sawmills.
Like new off roaders, RVers, boaters, tent campers, pool owners, woodworkers, scrap bookers, DIY home improvers.
For many the interest waned or will.
I've noticed in the full time RV crowd, some of the peripheral YouTubers are dropping out. The fad has run its course or they just aren't generating the income they thought they could.
There is alot of mill vids of all sorts on youtube...There is probably more instructional videos for guitar playing than sawmilling ones. If you have lots of experience in either of these endevours, it makes it easier to see who is who. A bad song is alot like a crooked wavey board ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy
Please Like, Subscribe, and ring the flippin bell eh? ffsmiley
You got some wild life coming to that pond you made!!!!!
You want to really shock your sawmill mind?!?
Go over to Reddit and read the sawmill threads there! "Experts" are a dime a dozen there and the advice will make your head explode!
If I see you on youtube I will. Where can I find you?
The things about YT is you have to realize that expertise in the subject has nothing to do with success.
Creating thumbnails and titles to draw attention and creating content that keeps people watching is what makes a channel successful (hence, Yoga Pants).
I'm still striving to crack that 60% AVD (average view duration) and with my hand in a splint and my back being unruly I haven't been able to run my mill, fell trees, build etc so I've had to shift to solar power / of grid power, power stations etc and those have done very well (the market for sawmill channels is flooded and there are some big channels (Yoga Pants) that take the viewership.
A friend of mine who started a channel when he got his mill, but did a good job learning (and never claimed to be an expert) shifted more to forestry and is doing very very well.
The point, I guess, is that YT channel success has little to do with expertise in a subject other than how to make videos.
Quote from: SawyerTed on December 18, 2024, 05:46:19 AMGo over to Reddit and read the sawmill threads there!
I had never been to that site and it did not take me very long to know that I would not go back.
Just me, but if a video is much over 10 minutes long, I am unlikely to watch it through. I will also skip through portions that are simply just sawing or tractor bringing logs, etc.
ffcheesy Sorry about that Lynn! It's pure awful and makes Facebook sawmill groups really appear to be experts. 🙄
Expertise? Is it relative? To a novice who is an expert? But to a person with some experience is the expert pool smaller? I think so.
I know nothing about cheapo tractor supply bought side by side orv repair, but of the last 2 3 years, the 2 videos I did while repairing my sister's hunk o crap, have been my highest performing videos with thank yous and people aking me about how to fix other stuff that I know nothing about. Sometimes people just need a hand I guess
Yup. Many people are looking for answers and if you give them the answers they are looking for in volume, they will be back.
Lynn -- that's normal and why AVD matters (average view duration). If most views only watch 25% of your video or less, it will stall and die and never come back.
If they watch 30-40% it may do well (though it will eventually drop off). For example, a video I have that hit 123,000 views started out at 70% AVD but eventually dropped to 20% and stopped. This is a function of the platform looking for viewers. Basically as new viewers click to watch a video and determine not to keep watching the AVD goes down and usually between 15 and 20% AVD YT cuts the spigot off.
I have one now around 93k views that's sitting at 40% and could continue a while but I've noticed that many in the 40-45% range also stall out (it's a crap shoot).
Anyway, long winded way of saying "what matters most is how long people watch". If they skip stuff and don't watch it all, the youtuber hasn't figured out well enough how to make videos :wink_2: Although I get around 250k views a month I'm still working hard to improve my video performances.
Hopefully some day I'll be an expert on making videos about not being an expert about making lumber! lol smiley_smug01 :thumbsup: :uhoh: :wacky: ffcool
Erik, I was not being necessarily critical, just saying that I may watch a 10 minute video in it's entirety, but 30 minutes, no way unless it's something that I think that I need to know. Letting the camera run while just sawing back and forth, I'm gonna skip.
No worries, didn't take it that way ;) Just explaining the key to success.
You are doing what most people do today wrt clicking past the boring/slow parts.
A successful video is one that you watch the entire thing to the end without skipping:)
At least in terms of how Youtube decides.
As for 10m, that's also not unusual though there are different groups. For example, many prefer videos that are 16-24m long (my usual target) but only as long as they move along, are entertaining and/or informative and then some like even longer! Over 30m.
Usually the younger a viewer is, the shorter the video but also, if they watch on a phone or computer vs if they watch on a TV -- TV watchers tend to watch longer videos than those on the phone for example.
And yes, I study all of this as much as I studied running a sawmill :)
I am not a "tuber". I am a "viewer" and @81+ years old, I think about how I am going to spend 30 minutes of my time.
I am just being honest and talking from one older viewer's standpoint. I only speak for myself but I suppose that it may be important for you to know.
Lynn, did you watch my entire crittercam video? zzzz_smiley
I have watched all of every one of your videos that I have seen. I have actually been there so I am always looking for stuff that I remember.
If "crittercam" is your last video starting at the pond, I saw it but have not watched any of it yet because I did not have time at the time. I saw that it was about a 30 minute video.
Quote from: Magicman on December 18, 2024, 10:09:39 PMI have watched all of every one of your videos that I have seen. I have actually been there so I am always looking for stuff that I remember.
If "crittercam" is your last video starting at the pond, I saw it but have not watched any of it yet because I did not have time at the time. I saw that it was about a 30 minute video.
I think its a little over ten minutes. Just a years highlights of the trailcam. My sister told me she watched it. She asked where the bears were. She has ticktock brain. So does my wife. They both swiped on the first pause in the music.
OK, if that is the video in Reply #68, no I had not watched it but now I have. Leenda didn't see bears? ffsmiley
I wanted to ask about the; "Please Like, Subscribe, and ring the flippin bell eh?" I am a subscriber but I don't know where the "Like" and "Bell" buttons are.
It was 11 1/2 minutes which is about the longest that I want to watch.
The like subscribe and ring the bell is a youtube chant. I dont have it in me anymore to work at making videos for the purpose of creating a channel that returns me anything more than memories.
Hi new member, and this looks like an appropriate spot to ask a question almost related to this topic... are there resources 'here' on sawing patterns, grade sawing, almost any milling topic, including maximum moisture removal rates, pdf? Any good info that I won't have to unlearn in the future. Thanks
Welcome shady. tons of info on just that. you can search and see what you like, then ask specific questions if you cannot find the answers. there is a search bar at the very top right. good luck, and welcome.
Thanks I was hoping for a section in this forum where there has been complied years of priceless knowledge indexed from beginner to HHA Level.
I can't think of a thing to say or an appropriate emoji to paste. ffsmiley
Let it go Jeff. ffcheesy ffcheesy
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Shady, welcome. What Doc was expressing and Jeff was trying to find a way to express it that this platform has collected some of the most detailed discussions and discoveries by many thousands of users over a period of more than 20 years. There are very detailed and in depth discussions on everything you listed and a great deal more. All you have to do is start searching and reading. Nobody will compile that information for your consumption. You just need to read it. It's all here in a format so detailed that you won't find anything more informative on the planet, including photos.
It's just like a library, you decide what you want to learn, then go check out books (threads) on that subject and do your own research. The difference is, if you are trying to work something out and have trouble, you can ask questions here. You won't find more knowledgeable folks anywhere. But frankly, the world is your oyster. but the ball is in your court.
The forum is great, and I have learned much and shared my knowledge and experience.
@YellowHammer Is a retired aerospace engineer and he likes to teach. he also makes videos you can see here or on you tube. Robert Milton at hobby hardwoods. Dr. Gene Wengert has been on for many years and just passed away. he has books out there and posted here. there are references to drying schedules and Nyle kilns is a sponsor, and you can find stuff on drying on here from Stan
@K-Guy or on their website linked from here. take some time and look around. If you ask a question in a thread that is addressing your questions, many will chime in and add or repeat info in the thread so you can understand it better. Your initial question involves a totality of info, and we would not know where to begin and it has already been posted. good luck.
here is an example. he has 199 videos out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6pXnHQYL8Q
Welcome. Good luck on your journey. So many resources at your fingertips. ffsmiley
Doc thank you for your reply. I will definitely poke around,..be ready to answer lots of green horn questions!
I did find Mr Milton on his Hobby Harwood of Alabama channel
Very informative, and if you read this Yellowhammer, we do appreciate taking the time out of milling to videos on you tube and explain your business to us.
I will be sure to look into the books and videos you pointed out
Thanks again!
Shadyside, welcome, you are in the right spot, these people on this Forum are as good as it gets, and this is the place I mention in my videos to get immersed in knowledge and techniques of sawmilling, kiln drying and other cool stuff. Many members here are or were professionals in their field, highly experienced and highly skillful, and all want to help. Others are very talented hobbyists or "old guys" who have done it all before.
Look through the threads, ask some questions, and don't mention the word Spandex, because REAL sawmillers don't wear it to the sawmill!
These folks are the real deal.
Anyway, welcome!
Robert
Shadyside, welcome to the forum.
Yes, welcome Shadyside. :thumbsup: Fill in your profile info so we know where you're located.
One little thought to help out our youtube brothers. If you have a channel that you like to watch, especially our FF brothers, here is a hint. When you leave in the evening, or at lunch, pull up one of their videos and let it play. I leave the computers on at my clinic, and it doesn't hurt me any to leave one of their videos playing all the way through when I head out. It helps with all the metrics that Old Jarhead was mentioning above.
Just a thought.
Doc
Absolutely!
Sadly, my body won't let me mill as much as I used it (almost not at all) so my channel, while it still has hundreds of sawmill content, has morphed into an off grid / power station channel more than sawmilling and cabin building but I'm still at it.
Average view duration is what I think of as the biggest metric with a second being whether or not the viewer watches another video as well. YT is about keeping people watching so when you start a video and let the playlist run it makes a big difference.
I was going back over this thread a little and noticed my comment about a video at 93k, it's now over 163k and still at 39% AVD but YT has made changes and while that matters still, many videos that drop to 40% or lower stall out.
Anyway, back to the latest posts -- yes FF has an immense amount of stored knowledge and you can search it pretty easily to find what you are looking for.
There are also several youtubers here (like Out of the woods sawmill and even the Cowboy - Jake Dean - has some videos out there though he's not that active on YT).
I'd love to get back to milling more but I'll leave the teaching to Yellowhammer as he has a vast wealth of knowledge beyond what I've learned in my 14 years of running a mill. I see myself milling only for myself from now on, for my own projects and most of that is D Logs and siding or some structural lumber when needed.
I still have plans for more cabin work too but the injuries have piled up so I tend to spend more time sitting in my shop reviewing power stations and setting up off grid systems than I do running my sawmill :(
Such is life.