You know a few months back I had a contract on a piece of timber that had to get done quick. So the mill I'm contracting with sent me a young kid, 23 years old to skid while I cut. He worked hard, showed up most of the time and almost on time. He had his PPE on , which I insist on, most of the time. Over all a good kid and I liked him and tried to teach him some things because he wants to log full time.
Over all I thought he had potential but had lots to learn.
Now once again I got a loaner guy from the mill to speed things up on the piece I'm on. But this time I'm skidding and bucking and he's cutting. They said this kid could cut timber. And he can. As long as it don't matter which direction the tree goes and what other remaining trees it damages. They said he knew how to cut for grade. No. He don't. I'm having to re measure and remark most of the trees on the landing as what he's marking would cut the value of these logs by half. The log yard graders would lose there dang minds.
I cant believe the forester thought this guy and I would work okay together. After the first two hours I could see real problems and stopped him to make some suggestions. I showed him all the untrimmed butt flares, knots, pulled fiber, and splits in the logs and gave him a copy of the mills spec sheets for log cutting. He listen for a short time then told me I needed to chill out because he and his normal partner send in crap logs all the time and they can just trim the logs up there in the log yard. I point out its OUR job to do that and cut the logs the way they yield the most lumber of the highest grade possible.
He rolls his eyes and tells me don't worry about it.
Well, I do worry about it and he's going to change his ways and do it right or down the road he goes and that right quick. I didn't send him home right then because I wanted to think about what I'm doing and be sure I'm not over reacting. I owe it to the mill, and myself and even to him to at lest try to correct this before I give him the boot. So I'll try again Monday and I'll try to be patient and stay calm. But where the heck do these people learn to think like this? I told him you got but one professional reputation, do you want it good or bad? He said as long as he gets the check why does it matter. ::) Good grief i aint looking forward to Monday.
You didn't mention the age of the second person that was sent to you for felling, but I find this all too common in our society today. The pride that people put into their work and work ethic are fading fast. Must be because trophies were awarded to all of these people as kids so they feel entitled :(
So glad to be retired :)
JD Guy this man is in his early thirty's.
Watch your equipment..... he will probably treat it much the same way he treats logs for the mill.
I'm not sure that it's as simple as a generational thing.
There's some boomers that are completely useless, just as there's millennials that are real achievers.
It's like fishing. There's the 'keepers' and the 'releasers'.
You're doing pretty good if you've had one of each.
If he thinks he knows it all at that age, then it may be impossible to change. i would have the forester or whomever referred him to you be present for the come to Jesus meeting on Monday. I have no hope as he as much as told you he has it figured out and sees no value in what you are telling him. So, do you make out his check? you could deduct any loss of value at the mill yard, from his check.
Quote from: Andries on December 01, 2023, 12:43:43 PM
I'm not sure that it's as simple as a generational thing.
There's some boomers that are completely useless, just as there's millennials that are real achievers.
It's like fishing. There's the 'keepers' and the 'releasers'.
You're doing pretty good if you've had one of each.
You are correct to a point. It used to be that you could count the "useless" on one hand. Now seems to be the other way around!
Doc H has a point, until it causes the guy some discomfort, he won't change. If the loss is on him, he will "get the point" of reducing loss.
Good luck Mr. B.C.C. Lapp. Once somebody has held a chainsaw of any age it's too late. I have never been able to show anyone how to fell a tree for saw logs. Currently I have no loggers cutting wood that comes here so it is tree service. So you are a hardwood logger? Don't visit my little log yard as it would make you sick [but you are welcome to see my sawmill] These producers talk about getting screwed by the buyers. They are lucky to get there trucking.
BCC
Not sure what a "loaner" is, but sounds like help sent from the mill.
QuoteNow once again I got a loaner guy from the mill to speed things up on the piece I'm on. But this time I'm skidding and bucking and he's cutting.
Sounds like this loaner has no responsibility to you, so send him back to whoever sent him. Obvious you are wasting your time trying to help him understand what he needs to do for the mill giving him a paycheck.
there may be a reason they would rather have him helping you, than at the mill.
Guys heres how the loaner thing works. I contract to the saw mill. I'm not an implore. That way they don't have to pay workmen's comp on me. This guy is also a contractor to the mill but usually with another crew. I get paid to cut and skid the logs to the landing. This guy is now doing the cutting part and that comes out of what they mill pays me but I set that rate. And I try to be fair. The mill pays him so once again hes a contractor and we avoid the workmen's comp issues.
He does not technically work for me but for the mill. But this is my job site, my contract, and I'm responsible for the quality of the work.
So I should really have little to do with managing him. But I will. And I know the forester and the mill will back me on whatever I do.
QuoteBut this is my job site, my contract, and I'm responsible for the quality of the work.
Then up to you to allow him to snub his nose at you, or send him down the road. Your choice, and wish you the best making the decision. Are these the consequences for flying under the radar regards the workmen's comp. issue? If exposed, how will that issue get sorted out? In your favor?
He's not smart enough to know that working with you would make him a better logger
He contradicted everything you said
Send him
if they have a sheet showing what pays and can itemize any reduction in pay due to quality, just tell him any money lost due to his work will come out of his pay.
If I was contracting to a mill and they sent a guy that useless and hard headed to my job he would be sent packing.
Ive worked with some guys on different crews that didnt take pride in there work (smashed leave trees pulled fiber etc.) I coudnt do anything about it but it made me crazy. Id give him one more day then call the mill. If he is mismanufacturing the logs then they will care enough to do something I hope.
Quote from: B.C.C. Lapp on December 01, 2023, 12:06:08 PMHe said as long as he gets the check why does it matter.
I think that unfortunately that's your answer.
The only thing that matters to him is that pay check. If he doesn't get it, because you sent him home, then maybe it will matter...
I don't think that it's a specific generation thing. As you say you have the young guy that needs some more training and experience, but he's useful already and has potential. Older guys may be more reliable, because the useless ones have been sent home enough time to either wake up, or quit the industry.
Early 30's isn't a "young guy" in my book.
Well, I have no patience with guys like that. I would repeat your prior conversation with him on Monday morning. If he has the same response, just say, 'Look, The mill is paying you with MY money and my money is made off these logs. If you don't give a dang and cut crap, I got paid less. I don't like getting paid less. So if you can't cut the wood the way I tell you, then I got no use for you, because you are basically taking money from my income. My Trees, My logs, cut My way. Either get that in your head or Take a hike. The call the mill and tell them that guy is a big zero and never send him around again. Chances are, they already know that.
If he's in his 30's and hasn't learned these basic lessons yet, he most likely has other 'issues' and is on a bad path. I could be wrong, maybe he just needs somebody to give him a good whoopin' up on to make him see the light of day. That works with some folks. ;D
The point is, he's not the Boss, you are. Don't lose any sleep over this, the guy is (so far) a loser and needs to go, he made his own bed.
SS, you are as young as you act. This guy is a little kid in my book and needs to have his ears pinned back. If he had talked to me like that it would have been a really short conversation.
Some just don't care. :(
But for each one that don't there are 10 more that do care.
Just have to find them.
I, as many FF members, try to the best we can.
OG I agree and my point was not to make excuses for this guy, he is choosing his path and at that age there have been plenty of lessons and observations for him to get it right, his decision is to get it wrong.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 01, 2023, 08:47:32 PM
Well, I have no patience with guys like that. . If he had talked to me like that it would have been a really short conversation.
:D :D :D :D :D smiley_beertoast smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
BCC Lapp, I believe you have handled this well. You gave yourself time to think and you gave him time to think. If you do have to send him down the road Monday you can do so with the peace of mind of knowing you gave him a chance to straighten himself up.
Quote from: beenthere on December 01, 2023, 03:49:51 PM
QuoteBut this is my job site, my contract, and I'm responsible for the quality of the work.
Are these the consequences for flying under the radar regards the workmen's comp. issue? If exposed, how will that issue get sorted out? In your favor?
We aren't "flying under the radar" on the comp issue. This is the only way to pay loggers in this state. Contractors working for themselves are not required to have it. If we were employees there is no way any one could log as the comp would be way to expensive. Impossible and no mill I know has any loggers as employees except Amish. They, of course don't do the workmen's comp or SSI thing. They are exempt. No the problem with this guy and others like him is simply one of lack of caricture and poor work ethic.
Quote from: Southside on December 01, 2023, 08:38:58 PM
Early 30's isn't a "young guy" in my book.
It is in mine. Maybe it's because I have kids that age.
Quote from: B.C.C. Lapp on December 02, 2023, 09:58:56 AM
Quote from: Southside on December 01, 2023, 08:38:58 PM
Early 30's isn't a "young guy" in my book.
It is in mine. Maybe it's because I have kids that age.
I consider 30's young as well but the age has less to do with the issues than the man's work ethic and give a DanG attitude do. You can find plenty of those in their 40's and 50's too! On the other hand my experience is that the younger are less inclined to have the initiative to do the job well but rather just get it done regardless of the quality of their work. B.C.C. Lapp, you've handled this well. If he can't do the job as you want then time for him to move on. Best of luck!
I wouldn't want a contract cutter on a job I was working on, period. Even though the mill sent them out, it doesn't really matter. If he gets hurt, all that matters is what your Department of Labor determines and they may find that he is working for you. Doesn't matter what you think. I just think you are opening yourself up to something that even if you beat it, the costs would bankrupt you. My .02.
The relevant MN agencies have really clamped down on "misclassifying" employees as contractors in logging companies.
When as an equipment operator, you can make $30-$40 an hour with excellent benefits in the construction industry, it is really hard for logging companies to compete for operators. So the temptation to pay them as contractors, and raise the wage with what would go towards comp, employment taxes etc is very strong.
Well, due to wet weather we have only worked three days since my last post in this thread. First day back I told him we needed to get some things straight before we start. I kept in low key, didn't get excited and tried hard to let him say his piece as well and I listened to what he had to say. What I found was that he has a kinda adversarial attitude about this mill and the forester. His reasons are his own and I neither agreed with him nor disagreed. I just listened, didn't judge or comment much. I did make it clear what I expected and what standards we are going to work with on this job and any other he shows up on. When we were done I could say with no doubt that he understood me.
That day and the following days went fairly well. He is doing what I asked for the most part and when I have pointed things out he has corrected mistakes. In short he's doing his job well enough that I can relax and concentrate on moving logs and not drama.
I gave this a lot of thought and went back to work with the goal not to lay down the law, or establish whos boss. I care not about those things or who gets the last word. No my plan was to try to get him to understand what had to be done and get us to where we could do what we both came to do, get this timber cut and the logs on the landing.
And, we are doing that very thing now so I'm pleased. Are we going to want to stay partners? Are we going to become friends? Nope, I really doubt it. But that is okay. As long as we can work and get the job done that what matters here. I'm glad I posted about this. I learned something useful.
Sounds like it was well handled. Probably both of you learned somethings. Might help him in the long run.
That's the way to handle it. Good for you.
Here in Canada I have to carry my own Workmans Comp on my self. I went and sawed a corporate job in Paris Ontario last week, I need proof of 2M liability insurance and a WSIB #. I drove 3 hours away for that job. The company could not find anyone that carried the insurance. I find insurance is expensive until you have to collect, and then its real cheap.
Sounds like he's a keeper!!
He wants to learn and do a better job.
@B.C.C. Lapp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=50091) Very well done! In my opinion you approached him like a man and had a conversation not adversarial. You got the job done the way it needs to be done and you let the young man keep his integrity. It's a win/win!! You're a good man!
Yes, you handled it in a professional way, start of the day when everyone had a clear mind, and could talk through things. Now you both have a better idea of each others outlook. You might not agree with his opinions, and visa versa, but hopefully you can at least work together. You don't have to be best mates with someone to work with them, as long as both are on the same "understanding" of doing the job in a decent way.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/abouthalf.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1702484555)
Well, here's a update. The job is done. Deep mud, long skids, hillside on half and swamp the other half, but we did finish it.
And we go our separate ways. And I'm good with that. Like I said we never will be friends. But for my part I've no hard feelings toward him.
My skidder is moved and I started a new job for a different mill and it feels like a weight off my shoulders. Went to work the last few days pretty happy to be back on my own.
Like I said I learned from this and Ill never take a guy on again that I dont know unless someone I know and really trust says he's okay. Then, well, maybe. And it will take a while. ffcheesy
B.C.C. Lapp, I really wanted to give you a double thumbs up on that last post :thumbsup:
The current unemployment rate is 3.7%
That means of all the people willing to work, the available pickins is down to the very bottom of the barrel right now. So we should keep our expectations pretty low unless poaching high dollar people off our competitors at this point.
Food for thought.
BCC glad to hear that episode is behind you,with any luck both of you learned from it. Hope your new job is a short skid and the ground is dry.
BCC, you handled that situation very well. I think you got the best results you could get. Both of you can feel good about yourselves.