We're looking to construct some better firewood storage racks/sheds for the firewood storage area for our community WoodBank (a volunteer supported firewood donation program). We're currently just using pallets, with the end of the row consisting of pallets fastened in an "L" shape to support the end of the stack. These rot out every few years, and have no real roof (just a tarp thrown over the stack once the wood is dry).
We want to construct upgraded storage at minimum cost and maximizing the useful life. I have plastic palles we were thinking of using for the floor. We are thinking of sinking 4 posts at the corners to support a roof (and possibly a back wall). I have some red cedar I could donate as posts. We could spring for pressure treated 4x4 posts, but hoping the cedar might give us decent life (I had some free Black Locust lined up, but someone beat us to it).
I'm hoping some folks here have recommendations for maximizing the life of the posts. First, would you go with PT posts or just use the cedar? For either type, what we're thinking is back-filling the holes with gravel, rather than dirt. Also thinking of coating the bottom with roofing tar to help prevent moisture absorption, and coating the part of the post from about 4+" above ground to maybe a foot or more underground to slow the rot process that often happens at around ground level. (A couple of folks have offered their leftover roofing tar to the project.)
Does that sound like a good plan? Does anyone else have suggestions for maximizing the life of the posts at low cost? Any other thoughts as we get in to this project?
John I haven't ever used cedar for post. In my area Telephone and power poles were easy and cheap to get and I have put up a fair amount of cattle sheds and pole barns with them and some have been up forty years and the poles are still solid. We started packing our pole holes on building with with rock thirty years ago. Not for sure it help but thought it would. This new treated wood doesn't seem to last. Just last week I had to replace some bottom board on a pole shed that has only been up ten years. If were closer I would cut you some hedge post.{ Osage Orange]. They would out last all of us. Since you have cedar I would use them tar the ends and pack with rock.
I'm not familiar with Osage Orange, since it doesn't grow around here. It sounds similar to Black Locust as far as rot resistance goes.
If the ERC is mostly heartwood, it will last a very long time. Sapwood rots quickly. Same is true for Black Locust, it needs that good solid yellow. Poor "posts" to start with is why people get unsatisfactory results.
You are doing good John, helping out others.
Have a local lumber yard? I would think they would donate to your cause.
You would have to put a sign up donated by...
Yes, on the gravel around the posts. Make sense, keep the moisture away from the posts.
Quote from: stavebuyer on December 09, 2023, 03:50:37 AM
If the ERC is mostly heartwood, it will last a very long time. Sapwood rots quickly. Same is true for Black Locust, it needs that good solid yellow. Poor "posts" to start with is why people get unsatisfactory results.
Wish I had a good way to strip most of the sap wood off.
I have used black locust with the sapwood on a few projects around our property with good results (corner posts and railings on a pavilion and a number of obstacles on the obstacle course in our woods). They've held up well, but none of those applications are in the ground.
about what size (dimensions) are you planning. How many of these sheds? Do they need to be portable (sounds like no)? Do you and the folks that want the wood, just hand load each stick or are there bundles? neat concepts. If the size and numbers are high, then you need readily available cheap stuff, like Tele poles. You could cut square posts from the ERC to get sapwood off, but it has some sap wood distributed throughout the heartwood. I assume you meant ERC (juniper) vs. a true red cedar. Where is this site located. Private or public location? You can also coat with copper naphthenate and then coat with roofing tar to protect the wood. some promote searing the wood with heat. I have not done this.
John Mc, with the project you've got going, I'd definitely stop by the local power /comm guys and maybe highway departments and tell them what your doing and see if they have any broken or replaced poles. I bet when they hear what your doing, them might even send a truck to dig the holes!
farmers here claim hedge posts are still good at 100 years. They would know as many here are 3rd or 4th or 5th generation farmers on the same land and can tell who in their family built "that fence". many now will use a smaller hedge post alternating with metal T posts. The corner posts tend to be 10 to 14 inches in diameter, and this may also lend towards a long life. good idea Granite
https://dyckarboretum.org/osage-orange-a-historical-living-fence/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera#cite_note-wynia-6
Harvesting Fence Posts - Farm Collector (https://www.farmcollector.com/farm-life/harvesting-fence-posts-zm0z22aprzram/)
John there's always the used motor oil and heating oil mix for a good dipping. . Some add a roofing cement of some sort but I think the good stuff like coal oil is no longer in the recipie. Good drainage and grading that directs water away from the hole all add up to your "best chance" short of today's retail pressure treatment. The good CCA is still available, but not in a retail setting.
Almost 30 years ago I set a locust post to hang a 16' gate on. I had a RR tie handy that I used as the latch post. Today the locust post bearing the gate is still in operation while the RR tie that only got the gate latched to it rotted of about 5 years ago!
I like the suggestion of hitting up a lumber yard for some free banana shaped 6x6's and 4x6's for your admirable project.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 09, 2023, 09:12:25 AM
about what size (dimensions) are you planning. How many of these sheds? Do they need to be portable (sounds like no)? Do you and the folks that want the wood, just hand load each stick or are there bundles? neat concepts. If the size and numbers are high, then you need readily available cheap stuff, like Tele poles. You could cut square posts from the ERC to get sapwood off, but it has some sap wood distributed throughout the heartwood. I assume you meant ERC (juniper) vs. a true red cedar. Where is this site located. Private or public location? You can also coat with copper naphthenate and then coat with roofing tar to protect the wood. some promote searing the wood with heat. I have not done this.
We're starting small. We plan two structures each 12' wide holding 2 rows of 16" long firewood. We'll put a post at each corner and possibly put a back wall on it. We'll probably stack 4 to 6' high, so each holds about 1 to 1.5 cords. They do not need to be portable.
At this particular storage site, the wood is processed by the group of 16 landowner families who own the property, occasionally assisted by a forestry class from the University of Vermont. The donation wood is not a "help yourself" system. We get a call or email from an individual in need, or from a friend of the recipient who notices that they are in a jam. We also partnered with a non-profit which is in the business of helping people in need, and they occasionally refer people to us. When we have a recipient identified, we generally round up a couple of volunteers to load up a pickup truck load or two and deliver it. We used to do all this anonymously, just making a cord of wood appear in someone's wood pile. We've been doing this long enough now, that people figured out who is involved. That actually made things easier, since we now draw from a larger pool of volunteers. Several of the recipients are also volunteers when we have a work day to process donated logs into firewood. We do occasionally have someone swing by to pick up some wood, but that is pretty rare. We'll meet them at the storage area to make sure they are pulling from the right pile: we do not distribute firewood that is still green.
What I have is Eastern Red Cedar. I've used it in a couple of spots for posts and it does OK. I got about 15 years out of a couple of them, without doing anything special to preserve them: Just dig a hole, put them in and backfill with the dirt I dug out. I might have a few Black Locusts I could take down and cut up for posts - need to swing by and if they are big enough to use yet. I did get a private message from a Forestry Forum member just up the road from me who offered to donate to used telephone poles for the posts. I've passed that offer along to the rest of those involved with the project. Hopefully, we can work something out.IF we do go with the telephone poles, we might redesign for a more substantial structure.
that is cool. If the ERC does not last and the roof is that small, you can prob replace posts one at a time as needed, if they do not last forever.
John, when I was a young man I built a horse fence using debarked cedar poles. I had a couple 5 gallon pails of roll roofing tar and dipped the posts in it thinking it would be great moisture protection. After about 4 years the posts started breaking off at the top of the tar line. I discovered the post bottoms were totally saturated with water and like mush. Apparently the tar coating held water in instead of preventing it from getting in. That was my guess anyway ????
gg
even concrete or steel pipe will degrade over time. remember, if you want good, fast and cheap, you can only get 2 out of the 3. :)
John, we always felled our Black Locust trees in the Fall & Winter and let them lay until the next Fall & Winter to buck them into fence posts. That way the bark had fallen off and they would be ready to use. That is the way the "old timers" always did it.
If you use fresh Black Locust, you must remove the bark and sapwood from the portion that goes into the ground. It will last OK, but not like the seasoned posts will.
A word about using utility poles. At the treatment plant the chemical is absorbed by the end grain in the butt of the pole than a layer of heavy tar is applied.
What this means is the pole butt will last in the ground for a very long time. Say you get a 30' telephone pole and want 10' long posts. The first post with the treated butt will last a long time but if you use the two other sections they will rot in just a few years because they do not have the treated butt. A lesson taught to me by experience.
I use drainage stone under my pallets under a porch. No mud and sand it the stone. I would use it in an augured hole packed around the posts.
I'm assuming by the term shed that means a roof is involved. If so I bet good red hearted erc will last a very long time. I've a shed built in 1978 with erc corners and still standing. Probably the posts are pretty decayed but it still does it's intended job. My garden shed was built in the '80's with cedar posts and I've had to repair one. Repair consisted of cutting off the bottom and scabbing on a new lower section.
Quote from: bluthum on December 11, 2023, 05:55:05 PM
I'm assuming by the term shed that means a roof is involved.
Yes. Four posts and a roof. Probably also have a back wall.
Locust is your best bet. Erc is next. I'm curious about cherry. I find cherry logs with ground contact that are rock hard after many years
Cherry: no. It will last a bit longer than some species, but no.
I once decked a porch using Cherry and do not even recommend that.
Pin cherry won't last I know. A year in the weather and it's like an onion, the rings will literally separate. ;D Sawed into lumber, you'd not know it from black cherry. It'll make a small log sometimes up here, but does not grow more than 40 feet high. They are as hard as beech to cut with a clearing saw, they don't have as much water in them when green.
If you brace the top of the post and set the post off a concrete pad with some attachment, that will help with the problem. i know they make concrete block designed to accept posts, but in Kansas they would at least blow over, and if not poss. blow away. If you put a 2-foot-deep round footer, say inside a cardboard form tube, then build on that with a strap to hold them down, that would make replacing a post much easier.
might be cool to be full log built even though most recipients will never see the sheds.
Thanks for all of the tips here.
One of the owners started fastening 2x4s on to the wooden pallets for the uprights. not a long term solution, since the pallets will eventually rot away (and these are already several years old). I'm hoping we'll end up with something more durable.
Red cedar with mostly heart wood, locust, black walnut heart wood and osage are a few. Sassafras actually holds up surprisingly well as long as you get the bark taken off.