Hi.
I was taking y'all s advise and was watching Yellowhammer's videos about the best methods to mill hardwoods. In one of his alignment videos, he was recommending using two "Blade Guide Alignment Tools" perhaps from Woodmizer to ensure your blade is parallel and not pitched up or down like an airplane wing to ensure the best setup for flat wood.
Honestly, I had never heard of a Blade Guide Alignment tool. Do most of you use one and if so, how often are they used? Is the WoodMizer the preferred guide? Looks easy to clip onto the blade to ensure its flat and parallel to both roller guides. Do some of you make your own guides? If so, would you mind posting your versions?
Learn something new every day...
Thanks!
If the mill is level, you can use little magnetic levels as well.
Here's what I use. Easily detects angle misalignment and twist in seconds.
https://woodmizer.com/store/Product/Index?id=2423&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAA9mrfQyKlM-bEGBHfTt5Et1H8l_j3&gclid=CjwKCAjwnK60BhA9EiwAmpHZw5WJLdqiU7f0TL5kbgwY1-J6xpNYXwLg62IBimDbL38mTOreO4jmSRoCql4QAvD_BwE
Cook's and perhaps other manufacturers provide similar tools.
If I get bad cuts and it's not obvious why (dull blade, hit something with blade, ran guide wheel into log), this is the tool I go to. Even if the mill cuts good, it's still a good idea to check once in awhile with this tool.
I have the woodmizer one, works well, nothing special about it. You could easily make one or two. However you connect it to the blade, you want the weight to be mostly symmetrical (not heavier on one end causing it to twist the blade). If made light enough it will be a non-issue.
If you have only one, just be sure to use it to set each side separately so each guide is parallel.
The BGAT! Before I remembered to add one to an order, so I wouldn't pay $20 on shipping for the $10 tool (or whatever it was at the time) I had a couple of pieces of 1/8x1" aluminum flat stock I used with a clamp. It worked fine, the BGAT is much easier.
My 40 supper must be different, If I did it that way it would be a mess.
I use the BGAT and check/align my blade guides as per the operator's manual.
Either remove the power feed V belt or disconnect one wire from the power feed motor and the head rolls easily.
Remember, these are "heartbeat and blood pressure checks" and if a sawmill does not have these items correct, which can be checked in seconds if not minutes, then it will not cut straight. Of course the LT40's and LT70 mills have different configurations, but the concepts are the same, especially the part about the idle side blade guide arm not being gorilla tight and the band having a twist in it or not being level to the bed using two BGAT's.
The motivation for this video was from a lot of people who ask me why their mill doesn't cut straight. Many have tried using the manuals but get lost in the details, some don't even have the manuals. Even people on the Forum just this week have mentioned that this video has helped them through or indicated their alignment problems. This is called the First Five for a reason, it is not all inclusive, but for the sawmills I have personally inspected or had people come into the shop or call asking for help, which is actually quite a few thanks to YouTube, (two this week) most of the time, these basic checks they can do easily themselves, will quickly indicate the problem. I tell people I am not "Woodmizer North Alabama and they don't pay me" to troubleshoot their mills, however, I DO want to help these folks, and these are quick checks they can do quickly and easily, pretty much on any mill, because the fundamentals are the same. They can then go to the manual to fix them.
Quote from: YellowHammer on July 09, 2024, 08:40:36 AMEven people on the Forum just this week have mentioned that this video has helped them through or indicated their alignment problems.
Okay Mr. Milton:
I plead Guilty.
What are you going to sentence me to.
GAB
You can attach a piece of aluminum stock to the band with a heavy rubber band. I would go slightly wider than 1/8", if I was going to make my own for stability.
Quote from: GAB on July 09, 2024, 10:26:54 AMQuote from: YellowHammer on July 09, 2024, 08:40:36 AMEven people on the Forum just this week have mentioned that this video has helped them through or indicated their alignment problems.
Okay Mr. Milton:
I plead Guilty.
What are you going to sentence me to.
GAB
A "like" and a "I am glad I could help!" especially for experienced sawyers and Forum members like yourself. That means a lot to me.
Gandhi hit the 'like' button multiple times.
All this assumes you can actually adjust your blade pitch. A lot of the less-expensive mills don't have this option. Make sure you actually have the ability to adjust pitch/incline before you buy one.
As JPassardi notes: When you use one, make uber-sure it's centered on the blade and not biased to one side, or the weight of it will be enough to impart some twist in the blade and give you an incorrect measure.
Yellowhammer, I like the idea of two alignment tools to check for level. Did you mention that they also need to be parallel to the bed?
also make sure to avoid a set tooth that would push the tool upward and skew the accuracy.
When using the BGAT(s) make sure your blade is tensioned to your operating tightness, otherwise you are most likely wasting your time.
At the logging show in Essex Jct. in May I noticed that the recommended band tightening pressure sticker for the new LT40's is now higher than what the sticker on my mill says. Mine is a 2005 model.
GAB
Just about all the WM techs are saying 3500#, We've been running it that way for several years now. Works well. Banjo "G" string tight. (the high G, not the low G.) ffcheesy
my TK has a small hydraulic cylinder in the screw tensioner. to a gage. It recommends 1300 to 1500 #s. prob. the difference in design. Middle C!
Those gauge numbers don't mean a whole lot and some are pretty inaccurate. It takes 24,000 +- psi stress to properly tension most bands. The only accurate way to measure that is with a stress gauge. WM, Lennox and a few others sell them. Just remember its going to taking a lot more pressure to tension a .055 1-1/2" 4 degree than a .045 1-1/4 turbo.
YellowHammer did a excellent job making the video. It's great to have a good reference to refer to when needed.
Mine settles in nicely @2800-3000.
Larry, thank you.
Quote from: booman on July 09, 2024, 04:15:33 PMYellowhammer, I like the idea of two alignment tools to check for level. Did you mention that they also need to be parallel to the bed?
Yes, certainly, I mention that in the video.
Quote from: Hemlock121 on July 08, 2024, 07:27:38 PMHonestly, I had never heard of a Blade Guide Alignment tool ..... Do some of you make your own guides? If so, would you mind posting your versions?
Learn something new every day...
Thanks!
I made my own when I first bought my mill. Mine is made of stainless steel since I had access to it at the time, now retired. It looks the same as the Cooks version: https://cookssaw.com/blade-alignment-tool/
I just can't eyeball everything and call it good. I go through the steps and tape everything. Like the arm doing in and out, It can be tight and off. 12" in and 12 1/8"+ out.
With the blade tool hanging like that, they would be in the same line and be off-called gravity. Put them on the way wm says and tape to the deck. Now you have a true flat blade to the bed. Use 1 or 10 tools, all the same.
I sell my stuff in the ruff so my big beams have to be on the money. If my finished lumber all went through a planner, the mill could be off some. A planner will fix everything. ffcheesy
As Doc noted, PSI requirements will be mill model specific - dependent on the air or hydraulic cylinder diameter.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on July 10, 2024, 06:15:38 AMI just can't eyeball everything and call it good. I go through the steps and tape everything. Like the arm doing in and out, It can be tight and off. 12" in and 12 1/8"+ out.
With the blade tool hanging like that, they would be in the same line and be off-called gravity. Put them on the way wm says and tape to the deck. Now you have a true flat blade to the bed. Use 1 or 10 tools, all the same.
I sell my stuff in the ruff so my big beams have to be on the money. If my finished lumber all went through a planner, the mill could be off some. A planner will fix everything. ffcheesy
That is not the point of the video, the title of the video is "The First Five Test" not "How to Do a Detailed Mill Alignment". These are not final alignment checks, these are very effective
basic diagnostic tests where someone can walk up to a mill and eliminate what I have seen to be the the most common reasons as to why their mill "isn't cutting at all, cuts waves, dives....etc." This is like going to a Dr. and the very first thing they do is run a blood pressure check, temperature, and stuff. If something is off, then they can at least hone in on it.
If the blade guide arm is loose at all, or rotates or jiggles back and forth with the band loose, the mill will not cut flat, period. Notice I didn't say perfectly square cants, I said cut flat along the length of the board. I have seen loose blade guide arms cause the band to completely rise and cut out of a 4/4 inch board. Most (nearly all, I have done it myself) people check the arm with the band tight, or only slacked a little on the tensioner, and it will not feel loose. A loose blade guide arm or roller bearing is extremely common especially on LT40 style mills, and especially, new mills where the inexperienced sawyer has used them just enough to wear the thick coat of paint off the arm, the arm is now loose and the Sawyer is too intimidated to check or adjust it.
For many people who have been fiddling with a mill that is cutting badly, one of the very first things they do is adjust the bed rails, raising or lowering them. So to do an initial, precise check against a bed rail measurement is a waste of time because it is not in a flat plane anymore and can't be used as a reference. What can be done is clip two BGAT's on the band and sight down them and in seconds find out if the band rollers are out of adjustment and causing twist in the band. If a band has eye viewable twist, the mill will not cut flat, period. Putting the BGAT clips on the end of the bar will double the accuracy as the indicator arm doubles in length. As long as the arms of the two BGAT's are the same length, they have the same cantilevered weight and will behave exactly the same. I am not measuring pitch doing this, I am comparing twist from one roller to another. I have seen many times where someone measures from a misaligned bed rail (thinking they are following the manual), and then they will inadvertently put twist is the band, thinking they are doing it right. I have also seen the same with bed rails that are bent. So if I simply click on two BGAT's and sight across them as in the video, and if it has twist in it, then that is a problem that must be addressed. A mill will not cut flat with a twisted band.
Even when doing a precise alignment, (not using a tape measure, but something three dimensionally stable and accurate) using two BGAT's is much faster, more accurate, and easier than using one and clipping it on and off the band several times.
Having 2 BGAT's is a good thing. And use a framing square instead of using a tape.
I can understand now after thinking of the people who contacted you from the videos you do.
No one asks me stuff like that even the guys around me with mills. All that you pointed out is common sense to most.
But with videos, you get all kinds of IQs I guess. ffcheesy
You definitely can't go by PSI on a gauge when comparing different systems, my 70 runs at 95 PSI on the air bag.
I just rewatched the First 5 test video. Robert did a good job explaining things
to sum it up, as a former boss always put it, "GET BACK TO THE BASICS"
Many if the problems I have found come back to the fundamentals of machine setup
For my LT15. I have found
clean everything, and put a new band on. a huge percentage of bad cuts is the blade.
Check the bed, I use a 4' level between bunks, not looking for exact level but looking for all in the same plane (close to level is easier to check).
check the blade with the BGAT, I like a speed square set on top of the level, it mostly stands up by it self.
check everything for tightness, I have lost a lock nut off the roller adjusters.
check drive belt tension.
When all else fails stop and go through the entire mill alignment procedure, and remember sometimes you have to go back to previous steps because adjusting one thing may affect another.
TK uses a 3/4-inch round stock for the carriage to roll on. I use a torpedo level from Stanley in the fatmax version. It is magnetic and has a grove on the bottom, so it centers on round stock. It is small enough to keep under the control station cover and is at the mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/IMG_8628.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=354607)
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I will go out on a limb here and please don't email me. A sawmill does not have to be perfectly level as long as the sawmill as a unit is true to itself. As long as the blade is level and parallel to the bed. It may be harder to push uphill or easier to go downhill but it will cut true. As long as the blade is true to the bed, you will be ok.
I have a 16" Stanley combo square just for the mill. I use it for all band to bed measurements. I have to put my cheaters on to see the lines, but I get good results.
Quote from: booman on July 11, 2024, 03:10:27 PMI will go out on a limb here and please don't email me. A sawmill does not have to be perfectly level as long as the sawmill as a unit is true to itself.
I don't see that you are out on any limb but rather, exactly right. Whether the sawmill bed is level with Mother Earth has nothing to do with the sawmill's proper alignment.
I too use a torpedo level and I adjust the outriggers, etc. to have the front end and loader side about a half bubble high.
Most of the people on this Forum range from experienced to very experienced and have this community to fall back upon when they have problems.
So, imagine a new sawmiller, never run one before, all excited, just one of the zillion newbies who have bought a new sawmill that has been backordered for months. Then imagine it gets delivered or you pick it up, of any make and manufacture, and it doesn't cut "right" and you don't know if the problem is you, or the sawmill or both. In frustration, the new sawmiller gets on the web, maybe fnds this Forum which is good, or unfortunately one of the FB groups where about half the stuff is wrong, or worse yet, watch a Spandex YouTube How To channel where 80% is wrong, including watching the guy who was doing a review on his new sawmill and complained it didn't cut as well as it should, only to find out he literally had the band on backward. Then imagine you call the mill manufacturer for help, again of any brand, and don't get the help you need. Or worse yet, they tell you the wrong thing. You wouldn't believe the stories people have told me that their dealer has told them to do, including saying the mill is set up perfectly (when it is not) and don't touch "ANYTHING."
So what do these folks do? They watch a video of some redneck in Alabama who isn't wearing Spandex, and who owns a real lumber company, and says he is trying to help. And every now and then, these people call and ask for help, or they drive here (I had two who drove a half a dozen hours from Kansas about a month and half ago, and last weekend, I had a Mississippi and Georgia visit in person, unannounced, during business hours.) So I don't have a lot of time to help them, but I will do my best. First step, I send them a link to this Forum. Then I run through the "First Five" on my sawmill, sometimes very hurriedly, in person, and most times, there is a Eureka! moment, or several. I've done it so many times, I finally made a video to make it easier on me and they can play it on their iPhone while I wait on a customer. Or I can send them a link, when people call or send an email for help.
Although some of these are totally inexperienced on sawmills, some are pretty sharp such as farmers, tradesmen, or own their own company of one kind or another and are just looking to do something new. Many buy them to make money or want to use it as an opportunity to work with their family.
Anyway, this is why I did the First Five video, to help people with the basics, to get them over the hump.
Certainly, there are a lot more things that can go wrong, and I had always figured I would do a "Second Five" video, but the "First Five" still works pretty well.
I will agree that perfect level is not necessary, and that parallelism is the important thing.
What I have found with my LT15, is that it is easier to get the 3 sections of bed aligned in the same plane if they are all close to level.
IE the bubble between the 2 lines, It may be close to one or the other but I try for the same anywhere I put the level.
Woodmizer reccommends using 2 strings lenghtwise down the bunks to check for twist and uneven bunks.
This is nowhere close to "perfect" Level. I have spent over a week trying to level a 14'x6' precision machine with a 0.0005"/ft level.
I would get it close and overnight some stress would relieve and I had to start over.
At times I have to step back and remember, It's just a sawmill...................
If you set your mill up so you are going uphill a bit when sawing, your carriage won't continue to roll ahead if you get into trouble and stop the feed- say for instance, you realize that you left your backstops up too high. Not that I ever have😁
Yeah - I'm not sure what you mean by hitting backstops BB. :wink_2:
Why would anyone run into a backstop, I mean they are just sticking right up there to easily see....BANG! Oh never mind.
I did the Yellowhammer first five tests yesterday. The mill has not been cutting out of flat but that is a bit surprising considering the blade guide arm was sloppy "bad". I tightened it up stiff as I could to the point where it is tough to slide the guide in and out (I spray some ATF on it every time I am setting up which helps that). I was going to change the blade because I had a little chatter on the beams that I thought was bad set on a tooth. I ran a pass on a beam, skinning off 1/4 inch, after tightening the guide and not changing the blade. The chatter was gone so I continued on finishing up the two beams and all was good. Looks like the chatter was the guide arm bouncing.
Taking a "skinning" cut can be troublesome in itself and can chatter.
I'm glad you found the issue, the YellowHammer First Five Test is quick and it works.
I made up a set of BGATs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/1000008522.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=354714)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/1000008521.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=354713)
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I need to paint the far one a different color to make sighting easier. Found I was 1/16" off in twist.
John, I found myself ducking down trying to get them closer together to see if they were parallel. does not work that well in 2 d. ffcheesy