Yesterday my day started off with two cars pulling up and three people introducing their self as OSHA inspectors. Two of them figured out that a small farm sawmill operation was not in their job but I had the pleasure of meeting a very professional young lady that dealt with noise. She interviewed my help and measured noise around my LT70.
I have been sawing for 30 years and have never heard of a NON INCIDENT related visit. They said that they had drove many hours to see my operation.
Has anyone else heard of this?
I read something about it when I was filling out the paperwork for my LLC... The fact that it happened to you in TN has me wondering a few things!
The only thing I would say is this is another sign of the times, where things are headed. I don't care for it, would probably make myself as difficult to deal with as humanly possible, too. I'm not a fan of big government, and to me that's exactly what this is. Strangle the people with regulation.... And that's probably all I should say on the topic.
I am just wondering "how they knew"?
Signs, advertisements, etc. ??
Quote from: Magicman on October 12, 2024, 09:44:49 AMI am just wondering "how they knew"?
Signs, advertisements, etc. ??
^^^ This.
Also, it is my understanding that 1 - farms are exempt from Osha, and 2-there is a minimum business size (# of employees) to qualify as well.
Would be interested to hear from RKI's about this.
It is my understanding that if you have less than 10 employees and there isn't a complaint then they can't inspect you.
One showed up at my place about a month ago but couldn't inspect anything for the reasons above.
Insurance inspectors carry more clout.
There is no or random innocent OSHA visit. Penalties are amazingly high. Read up in the federal regs and know what you can and can't do. I know businesses locally who thought it was a joke and have been hammered with huge fines. Hopefully you are in compliance and don't have any violations anyway. But....OSHA doesn't play.
Read about the fines here:
https://www.osha.gov/news/newsreleases/trade/01112024
From the OSHA website:
"OSHA's mission is to assure American workers have safe and healthful working conditions free from unlawful retaliation."
So as a business, you are the enemy and it's their job to figure out where you may be endangering your employees. Read up and know your rights.
Tennessee has its own OSHA (TOSHA), their rules my be different than the feds regarding inspections
OSHA is like the IRS. They have be handled in a business-like manner with a degree of seriousness. They don't have a sense of humor. It's up to the employer to know the rules.
On the other hand, if asked, here in NC they will provide assistance in compliance without penalty IF an employer commits to correcting any non-compliance.
someone dropped a dime on you .Or a text message .
So I am going to be very blunt here, you screwed up big time. There was a safety specialist person there, an industrial hygienist person, and likely a trainee, or a supervisor The IH, that sweet gal, did your noise testing and I will guarantee you that they will find over exposure, plus you consented to it. You really want to get an attorney who deals with OSHA and talk to them Monday morning. Your consent is what is going to hang you. You could have said no and legally they would be done. Expect citations, they will be coming. The only good thing is that you have under 10 employees, and you have never been in trouble with OSHA, so that will give you opportunities to reduce your fines by agreeing to allow a consultation entity to come in and attend a safety class.
Make no mistake, they were not there to help you.
I have 3 people. Me. myself. and I. work here. :wink_2:
At 70 I think I might slow down some.
Quote from: SawyerTed on October 12, 2024, 05:13:32 PMOn the other hand, if asked, here in NC they will provide assistance in compliance without penalty IF an employer commits to correcting any non-compliance.
Generally, at least in my experience dealing with OSHA in my old job, these are only voluntary inspections requested by the business, or the business's insurance company, prior to any actual spot inspection or complaint triggered inspection.
Otherwise, complaint triggered or spot inspection triggered audits enforce compliance with fines, at least the ones I know of.
Around here, it is not uncommon for a disgruntled or fired employee to go the OSHA whistle blower website and file an anonymous complaint.
Hopefully, you will be left alone and nothing will come of it. That would be the best case scenario. However, unless you had even such basic things as employee safety signs up, clearly visible, you were in OSHA violation, whether they push it or not. For example, did you have one of these posted? If not, oops, you fail....
i would have told them to leave. never welcome the government to your place.
Quote from: YellowHammer on October 12, 2024, 11:06:57 PMQuote from: SawyerTed on October 12, 2024, 05:13:32 PMOn the other hand, if asked, here in NC they will provide assistance in compliance without penalty IF an employer commits to correcting any non-compliance.
Generally, at least in my experience dealing with OSHA in my old job, these are only voluntary inspections requested by the business, or the business's insurance company, prior to any actual spot inspection or complaint triggered inspection.
Otherwise, complaint triggered or spot inspection triggered audits enforce compliance with fines, at least the ones I know of.
Around here, it is not uncommon for a disgruntled or fired employee to go the OSHA whistle blower website and file an anonymous complaint.
Hopefully, you will be left alone and nothing will come of it. That would be the best case scenario. However, unless you had even such basic things as employee safety signs up, clearly visible, you were in OSHA violation, whether they push it or not. For example, did you have one of these posted? If not, oops, you fail....
We went through that exact scenario at work. A former employee filed a complaint listing all the things that were wrong. (I'm pretty sure it was the guy in charge of getting those things right but since the complaint can be anonymous, I'll never know for sure.)
Anyway, we got a very nit picking inspection and of course they found some violations. Paint on the floor marking exit doors was worn type of thing. Ended up negotiating on some issues with the help of a retired OSHA employee and fixed the ones that made sense plus paid a fine that was less than an attorney fee would have been to contest the others. Ironically, the retired OSHA employee came out of retirement a few years later and now runs that part of the agency. Had he been in charge when we were inspected, it would have been a two day event as he has good sense. "Fix the things that matter, make sure procedures are in place to not have any future issues and yeah, pay a reasonable fine." As it was, things dragged on for several months tying up staff and doing meetings.
Inspectors have to find something or face internal criticism that they aren't doing a good job. Our inspector could read a check list but had no ability to discriminate where there actually were options on how to prevent hazards. Like all regulations, there are gray areas and she didn't know how to deal with those so the default was "you're not in compliance" when a more knowledgeable person would look at the regs and say, "you are doing section B which is allowed but being cited for section A. We'd rather you do section A, but B is a legal alternative and therefore not a violation."
The biggest thing is being proactive not reactive to OSHA, Dept of Labor, Air and Water, Fire Marshall and the others who can show up for inspections. Learn and know what laws apply to your operation. It's just like knowing Dept of Transportation regulations, ignorance won't prevent enforcement.
I spent 5 years with 2 businesses writing and implementing their safety programs. Spending my time with insurance risk management agents and OSHA agents was not my idea of fun - I spent many hours with both. Like a dentist visit and colonoscopy the same day...
There's nothing like being the one who escorts an inspector through an operation to learn what they are looking at and why.
Fines and penalties usually result from gross violations, refusal to correct a safety issue or repeated violations. Reported injuries or death also can result in fines and penalties. You can bet that worker's comp insurance and OSHA talk.
It has to be really bad for a first time violation on an initial inspection to result in fines or penalties. Most violations have a corrective action period, the most serious result in stop work orders.
Making OSHA inspectors to leave certainly is our right. Keep in mind that telling OSHA agents to leave CAN result in them returning with a warrant and law enforcement. All they need is probable cause. A complaint or their DOCUMENTED targeting plan (even if it's a random selection ) is probable cause.
Once you establish a business there's lots of agencies that have a need to know certain information about it. The law is on their side.
Ted,
Very good write-up.
Can you do some training with OGH on paragraphs and such to help him organize his thoughts and writings. ffcheesy
Tell you what Howard, I'll try to type slower from now on, how's that? ffcheesy
After a handful of small sawmills getting visits from OSHA recently, I suspect there's a nationwide industry targeting program.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on October 13, 2024, 10:32:40 AMTell you what Howard, I'll try to type slower from now on, how's that? ffcheesy
Thanks. You know I don't read very fast so I am sure that will help a lot. ffcheesy
I had Ontario's version of OSHA show up randomly about 2 years ago. When I asked him what triggered the visit, the conversation went as follows:
Inspector - I saw a new sign and ran your name through the system. You've never had an inspection so that's what I'm doing today.
Me - I don't have any employees so you have no authority here
Inspector - Tough, I'm coming in anyhow
Me - You can come inside, no farther than the desk by the door. You can confirm there are no employees and then I need to ask you to leave as I have an appointment I cannot cancel.
I let him confirm there were no employees, he did not go past the desk and he did not look at any equipment. I did ask if they offered a program to come through and do a safety audit that won't result in fines and he responded with "We don't do that. We only police."
I had to respond with "and that is why nobody likes you. Ronald Reagan said it best with his 9 scariest words in the English language line "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".
I'm a one man show and I don't work on secure or confidential work yet I still have a log book for guests, plus mandatory escort, due to an electrical inspector writing me up after he returned to his office without giving me notice nor a copy of the fault(s). To the best of my knowledge, this is still an open deficiency until they can provide me with the proper paperwork outlining the exact fault.
I do agree that there is a need for inspections, but when the greater majority of the inspectors seem to take the job because it gives them a bit of power, there is a problem. Not to mention that each inspector gets to read and interpret the rule book as he sees fit.
I believe you are correct Ted. Their emphasis programs target businesses off your NICS code that classifies what type of business you are.
Folks you need to know the law and your rights. There is a reason the "friendly gal" was the one who talked her way into conducting an inspection with consent when they were dead in the water, they are trained to do just that, all enforcement is. Look up the "Kansas Two Step" if you want to see what I am talking about. The old "You don't have any bombs or dead bodies in your car do you? Can I take a look so my boss doesn't get mad with me?" line is used all the time during traffic stops. The idea is the driver says to himself, "of course I don't have any bombs" so they give consent and guess what, anything they find will be used against you.
You absolutely can refuse a program inspection and if you are a small outfit, with no OSHA history the reality of it is they are not going to apply for a warrant. It's not worth their time and they have to convince the judge you actually fit the criteria for a program inspection. On top of that the only law enforcement that will accompany federal OSHA is the US Marshall Service, and they aren't going to mess with mom and pop if there isn't a serious injury or fatality complaint AND the threat of a non compliant, possibly violent business owner. Politely saying no retains your rights and doesn't check any "he is dangerous" boxes.
I can't stress enough it is your job to know your rights and to retain them when necessary. An informed individual who is calm, firm, and confident will shut down any law enforcement fishing expedition.
Make a neighbor mad and who knows what agency might show up. I was sawing a very large mobile job for a land developer in heavy timber that went several months. The EPA showed up, pointed in our direction by a neighbor I'm sure. The guy took lots of pictures but no problem as we were clean.
But.....it is illegal to burn waste sawmill slabs in Arkansas. Might have been a hefty fine if we were burning.
100%. Good cop/bad cop. Let the pretty face do the talking. Standard, rehearsed schtick.
However, they can inspect on the spot if they see a dangerous situation actually underway, such as someone doing an overhead lift with a forklift with no hard hat, or manually lifting heavy items (lumber) without steel toed boots. So anytime I get an inspection here at the mill, which I get from several agencies once a year (but not OSHA, knock on wood), like clockwork, not only are my machines turned off, but my breakers are also shut off. My facility is "dead cold" and there are zero operations going on. Period. My garbage cans are empty, and PP&E is obviously laid out, ready to use. Fire extinguishers are always charged, and my "exit signs" are always working. I have a stack of red "out of service" tags (Amazon) and if something looks marginal, I red tag it myself before the inspection, and fix it later. Using Southside's police analogy, you can't get a ticket for speeding if your vehicle is turned off.
In my old job, whenever OSHA showed up, I had standing orders for everyone to stand down, shut all the equipment off, and go to their offices or work station, stand at the ready for questions, have their SOPS's and training records out on their desk, team leads report to me, and my assistant was to go get my boss. I never had a safety, environmental or OSHA inspection that did not get contentious, and I never failed one, either. I did once have a tool that the worker had "lost" the guard, and I simply took a pair of cutters and cut the power cord in half, right in front of my employee. Sure nuff, later in the inspection, the inspectors saw the lack of guard, were about to write me up (I was the supervisor) and I said it wasn't a violation because the tool had been previously taken out of service by me personally, "locked out" by me cutting the power cord off. It seems over dramatic, but I didn't get a gig and the guy who had removed the guard got the duty to replace the guard AND the power cord.
The above thread is why never even think about commercial milling. My day job is enough.
In my years of civilian machine shop employment I saw OSHA come through a few times and cause problems but during 26 years in the machine shop supporting the Army Reaserch Lab none. I was told no one at OSHA had a high enough security clearance to enter our building so I suggest you all start doing all "highly classified" sawing, no admittance without "need to know" papers from the supervisor, which is you.
I suspect you had a resident DCMA employee there which is the DOD internal version of OSHA, takes care of the clearance issue.
We have an OSH debate going on at work currently.
One of our rural mail clients has moved their mail box. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but they have moved if from the side road (corner section) to their main driveway, on the main highway. At the old location, you could pull off on to a quiet dead end street, drop off their mail, do a couple more boxes on the short street, and drive out again.
With the new location, boss has to pull into their driveway to access the boxes, then reverse out onto a 60mph highway and then do a U-Turn. Around daylight, and in any weather. Boss has said "Stuff that, it's an OSH hazard, and there's been enough crashes on that stretch of road (true), I'm not doing it."
Currently management are picking up this guys mail and delivering it themselves while things get sorted. But if they tell the boss she HAS to deliver to that box, OSH will get involved.
NZ version seems both stricter but more flexible. As in "notice to fix", is more common. They find some minor problems, tell you to fix them, check back next month, OK. That keeps the inspectors "busy" because they have found some minor things to fix, so their numbers look good. And we also don't have exceptions for Ag or number of employees. If you hire someone, OSH rules apply.
And if you think the cost of complying is steep, the cost of NOT complying, and then having an accident is x100.
Ian,
I don't think our mail carrier ever leave the main roads except maybe to get a signature on a registered mail piece or deliver something too big for the box or such when they may pull up in a drive and I actually think that is more courtesy than required. I think by law they can just leave a notice of attempted delivery and you have to go to the main post office to get it or call and set up a time to be there at the box to collect/sign for the mail. Our boxes have a standard height (window height to a vehicle) we have to comply with and they have to be within a certain distance of the road. (I suspect they are in NZ too.)
The mail carrier has a big notice on the back of their vehicle and generally have a flashing yellow strobe they use when delivering mail.
When we would be driving to town if we saw the mail carrier coming on our county road we'd stop beside her and she'd hand us our mail out the window. The last time I tried that she said somebody saw her do that and complained and almost got her fired so she could not do that any more. We have very little traffic and most people know each other and don't mind. In fact it is common to see 2 neighbors meet and stop their cars and talk in the middle of the road. If you pull up behind them they will usually quickly finish their conversation and go. Sometimes they will pull up, let you pass then back up beside each other and continue their conversation. My wife gets mad and tells me to toot the horn and I refuse telling her at least one of them sees me and they will move in a minute. Evidently someone saw the mail lady stopping to hand out mail (actually we normally just pull up beside her at one of her regular stops and she'd look in her box and hand us ours) and was in a hurry and made a big deal of it.
This lady ran over a rattlesnake several years ago on her route and wanted the hide so she and her dad brought it to me to skin which I was happy to do for her. You need to stay in good graces with your neighbors and service people.
It appears that my safety at the mill is fine. the problem is I don't have Paperwork of the times that I have met with the guys working here. It appears that I need a paperwork trail for everything.
Quote from: gspren on October 14, 2024, 02:10:28 PMIn my years of civilian machine shop employment I saw OSHA come through a few times and cause problems but during 26 years in the machine shop supporting the Army Reaserch Lab none. I was told no one at OSHA had a high enough security clearance to enter our building so I suggest you all start doing all "highly classified" sawing, no admittance without "need to know" papers from the supervisor, which is you.
Sounds like a lab where my brother worked. Much of their work was routine testing but they also did work for the CIA, DOD etc. At one point they had the Presidential limo, "the beast" on premises, complete with secret service agents watching. The agents stayed with it overnight as well, even though the facility was locked. My brother could tell me about some of the testing, some he just said it was an alphabet test.
Quote from: just_sawing on October 19, 2024, 08:30:51 AMIt appears that my safety at the mill is fine. the problem is I don't have Paperwork of the times that I have met with the guys working here. It appears that I need a paperwork trail for everything.
That's about the best possible outcome. They find some minor issue and give you a "notice to correct" and life goes on. You have a diary called OSH meetings and make some notes in it when you have "toolbox meetings", maybe that quick chat you have on Monday morning where you lay out the plan for the week (whose doing what that day etc) Anything that needs fixing or looking out for gets noted down, and ticked off when it's fixed. Basically what you do on any well run worksite, just you make a note of it.
It's a better visit than this one...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360458414/auckland-businessman-pay-4m-court-settlement-after-workplace-death
Summary, guy ran an oil recycling operation. Told one of his workers to weld up a large tank with oil residue in it. Tank exploded, blew the guy 100 yards and killed him. Basically the ole "welding up a car's gas tank" mistake X 1,000. Obviously the company was prosecuted and fined 6 figures. He ended up with a home detention (ankle bracelet etc), AND an extra fine for resuming work on the site before it had been cleared (stop work order following the accident). The cops then decided that they could chase him for "Proceeds of Crime" as the OSH violations were so blatantly criminal, that made the profit the company had made over the years "Proceeds of Crime". Usually that's reserved for drug dealers / fraudsters etc. If you can't show how you legitimately paid for those fancy things (lottery win / left them by a rich relative / had a high paying day job etc), then the police can basically impound or lien them, and apply to the Court to keep them. Anyway, the guy settled the case for $4 mil. I assume less then the properties actual value, but that's one heck of an individual "fine".
Might have been cheaper to spend some $ on some basic OSH compliance?
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on October 15, 2024, 08:56:42 AMI don't think our mail carrier ever leave the main roads except maybe to get a signature on a registered mail piece or deliver something too big for the box or such when they may pull up in a drive and I actually think that is more courtesy than required. I think by law they can just leave a notice of attempted delivery and you have to go to the main post office to get it or call and set up a time to be there at the box to collect/sign for the mail. Our boxes have a standard height (window height to a vehicle) we have to comply with and they have to be within a certain distance of the road. (I suspect they are in NZ too.)
One difference is that we don't run modified vehicles (steering wheel on the other side). So often we are delivering on the wrong side of the road. There are basic guidelines for mailbox height etc, but location is more flexible. Obviously we have to be able to drive up to it, and it needs to be in a "safe" location to pull in. That's the argument here, it's safe(ish) to pull in, but it's as dodgy as backing out again into 2 lanes of 60 mph traffic. Other main road boxes have more sensible wide driveways where you can access the mail box, do a 3 point turn in the driveway, and drive out again. My part of the run is mostly backroads, with no where near the State Highway traffic, but one section is a "default" bypass of town, so logging trucks etc are always using it. Keep a good eye on the mirrors there and let them know what you are intending to do. But maybe 1% the traffic on the SH.
As for the driveways, long drives aren't common. Maybe 200m is a longest I've got. So if it doesn't fit in the box, we drive in, unless the gate is shut. If it's shut, it's either sling it over the gate (carefully, and in a plastic bag if it looks like rain), or leave a card. Gates are usually shut for either dogs or livestock, and we don't mess with either. The regular online shoppers generally have a spot to leave things that we know, or at least haven't complained about the "bag over the gate" delivery. Others, the dogs are well trained, and happy to see us as they know we deliver dog food. ffcheesy
But we are increasingly becoming more "Courier" than "Post"
Up here in British Columbia, we have WCB(workers compensation board). They seem reasonable or I'm just lucky. Had a "surprise inspection " a few years back. Had to add a railing and cover some drive chains a little better than they were. In the course of conversation, I picked up the reason for their visit. A Sawmilling competitor tried to throw me under the bus during his inspection which didn't go that well.
I think there is one of two reasons for my surprise drop in. The first and most likely is that, I have a lot of dealings with the two biggest hardwood mills in North America. They have both recently had some major accidents, one including a death. I figure OSHA might have went through their books and found my info. The second is that I hurt someone's feelings on Facebook. There is some local sawing groups that I belong to and I'm not always the most tactful when I'm explaining the same thing for the 10th time in two days. I know I'm just as shock as you guys, that as sensitive as I am, that I could hurt anyone's feelings. ffcheesy
The fact that this guy came from Savanna, and he would have been involved with the inspections at the two big mills, is part of the reason for the first being one reason.
Quote from: customsawyer on October 23, 2024, 06:06:15 AMI think there is one of two reasons for my surprise drop in. The first and most likely is that, I have a lot of dealings with the two biggest hardwood mills in North America. They have both recently had some major accidents, one including a death. I figure OSHA might have went through their books and found my info. The second is that I hurt someone's feelings on Facebook. There is some local sawing groups that I belong to and I'm not always the most tactful when I'm explaining the same thing for the 10th time in two days. I know I'm just as shock as you guys, that as sensitive as I am, that I could hurt anyone's feelings. ffcheesy
The fact that this guy came from Savanna, and he would have been involved with the inspections at the two big mills, is part of the reason for the first being one reason.
I suspect the first reason is correct. Inspectors are like everyone else and tend to follow trends. If there is a death at one sawmill, then all sawmills are suspect. It's not an unreasonable thought except there's a huge difference between a high volume mill with lots of employees and a small operation with just a few employees which runs at a lot slower pace in total even though each person might be working hard. I visited one mill and while I didn't time it, it seemed like a log went through about every 20-30 seconds.
Quote from: customsawyer on October 23, 2024, 06:06:15 AMI know I'm just as shocked as you guys, that as sensitive as I am, that I could hurt anyone's feelings. ffcheesy
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Quote from: TreefarmerNN on October 23, 2024, 06:43:50 AMI suspect the first reason is correct. Inspectors are like everyone else and tend to follow trends. If there is a death at one sawmill, then all sawmills are suspect.
True. Sawmills tend to be dangerous places, no matter what the size. A small sawmill operation can be a death trap if it's run in a shoddy way. If you are running a safe operation, then expect a couple of "notice to fix" / we check back in a month sort of issues. No one gets 100% on the OSH tests.
OSH don't hassle office business, because they are low risk, and those risks are covered by building safety folks. (you got fire escapes? etc). Paper cuts and stapler injuries don't register on the radar. Now machinery, heavy materials, sharp moving cutty things do.
They have numbers for serious injury / death accidents for various industries, and foresty / fishing / farming is up at the top of the list.
I think a fully automated big mill is way safer than a small operation because the handling of the logs and lumber, stacks and everything is more of a manual labor.
Although the more employees there are the bigger is the number of idiots also