The Forestry Forum

I think I just wrapped up my last job for the year (truck's going into the shop for head gaskets, be at least a week)... Reflecting back, I spent more money on blades than I anticipated. I want to adjust my pricing to recoup this cost.

I currently charge $50/hr, and when I get on site and setup the mill, the first thing I do (in front of customer so they can see, I point it out to them), is throw a fresh blade on straight out the box. It's kind of a sales-tool: Look, I'm putting on a brand new blade just for you!

Currently I only charge the customer for a blade if I hit metal/stone in the log. If the blade is starting to get dull (but still has life in it), and the customer requests a change, I change it and eat the cost. I anticipated the blades lasting longer and being able to cover the costs w/ my hourly rate. If this persists throughout the job, I advise the customer they are going to start paying for them. So far it has been obvious the blade is getting dull, and it's time to change, I was just hoping to squeeze a little more out of it...

I'm losing money on blade changes, and not re-couping the costs when sawing oaks, hickory, etc.

Large hard-woods last about 1-2 logs per blade, pine/poplar I can get 5-7 logs per blade, depending. Todays job I had to throw a new blade on for the last log, darned thing was diving and weaving on me w/ the old blade(s). Took half-hour to cut the log. I made $25, paid $25 for the blade... That's not sustainable.

I can solve the problem by increasing my hourly rate (say $60-65/hr) and spread the cost of the blades across all customers, or change-up how I bill and add a blade-fee. I would advise customer up front the first blade is on me, you buy all the other one's we use, and add it in to the bill at the end, $30 a pop. I can explain this away by discussing hardwoods vs. softwoods, posts vs. slabs, etc.

I'm leaning towards the blade fee as I feel this is more fair, however I worry this may confuse the less-savvy customers. When cutting w/a dull blade, the slower feed-speed means they are still 'paying more' for me to saw w/ the old-blade... and they notice it. With a blade-fee, more demanding customers are welcomed to stump up and pay for the quality cutting they are looking for. Likewise the guy making posts out of pine-tree's doesn't end up paying for blades the guy w/ huge oak logs is going to burn through... The customer pays for the blades they use. This also allows me to keep my hourly rate low, which is an attractive sales-point for me.

My concern is w/ an hourly-rate my customers seem to anticipate the bill being $XXX, and when the "extra-fee's" are added in it could be a significantly different number. One all-oak customer used up 6-blades in one day (@$30ea = 180 bucks!) I'm afraid that may be a problem, whereas an hourly increase is easy to digest (and I'm already cheap to hire). However I feel personally the blade-fee idea is more fair - it doesn't spread the costs to all customers, only the customers using up the blades.

Just a few comments.
When I first started I tried a blade fee and it didn't go over very well. I quickly dropped it.

When Im sawing I'm the one that determines when the blade gets changed and it is when I see the first sign of waves. Even if a customer thought waves are ok, I wouldn't keep sawing. I imagine at a later date the customer showing his wood to others and they see a pile of wavy boards.

I would suggest charging more so you can afford to do the best work you can.

I few years ago I invested in a sharpener and setter from Woodland Mills. It's not a high end machine but it does an adequate job.
Now that I have a sharpener I find my quality has improved greatly and its because I no longer try to push a blade too far.

  I suggest raising the hourly rate as I consider blade usage as part of my doing business unless I hit foreign objects or the logs are obviously real dirty. If your costs have gone up you need to pass them along - sawing for profit s not a benevolent activity IMHO.

  If you know certain logs require more blades another option would be to have an hourly rate based on the wood type/species but I would think that is too complicated as many of my jobs are mixed species.  I make out on the soft woods like pine and poplar and make less on the hard woods like the oaks and we don't even want to think about hickories.

  Are you using the right blade for the species? I use 4 degree DH blades for everything now. I used to use 7 & 10  degree for softer woods but then I'd hit a knot and make a ripple that a 4 degree would have cut through so I ap pretty much standardized on 4 degree blades now.

    BTW - I have never had a customer ask me to change a blade. I have had many ask me why I was stopping to change a blade and I will tell them I can feel it struggling or I spotted the start of a wave at a knot or something they had not noticed. If they are noticing degraded performance before you do I'd re-evaluate my criteria for my blade changes.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 07, 2024, 09:55:51 PMAre you using the right blade for the species? I use 4 degree DH blades for everything now. I used to use 7 & 10  degree for softer woods but then I'd hit a knot and make a ripple that a 4 degree would have cut through so I ap pretty much standardized on 4 degree blades now.

That is definitely a portion of my situation. So far I have only bought blades from Norwood. 10-degree general use blades, this new box (used today) were 7-degree 'hardwood' blades. Not impressed.
I ordered a box of blades this week from one of the FF sponsors in Michigan, they're 7-degree 'woodmizer' blades. Will see if they perform better. I tried the Norwood BlueFlex "high performance" blades, ran terrible, standard blades were better.

Having to stock a bunch of different blades gets expensive... But that's certainly an option here. I will look into those 4-degree blades. The 7-degree ran well through pine and cedar today.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 07, 2024, 09:55:51 PMBTW - I have never had a customer ask me to change a blade. I have had many ask me why I was stopping to change a blade and I will tell them I can feel it struggling or I spotted the start of a wave at a knit or something they had not noticed. If they are noticing degraded performance before you do I'd re-evaluate my criteria for my blade channes.

Push it until it starts to smoke!!!  ffcheesy  ffcheesy  ffcheesy
I joke, but... customers have noticed I'm walking slower, and the sawdust turns to powder, not just dust. I notice it half-a-log ago, but I'm buying the blade, I keep silent, you're darned right I'm going to run it all the way. I also see this as problematic. Hence why I like the idea of putting the ball ($$$) in the customer's court. You want a better, faster cut? Pay up.

I agree with both Tom & Howard above. 

If you wait until you see signs of the blade being dull you are waiting much too long.  Change the blade when it is no longer sharp, not when it dulls.  Never try to get "one more log" out of a blade because the back pressure/bend/stress is killing the life of your blades.  I decide when the blade gets changed. 

I only use one blade profile; Turbo 7° (7/39) Wood-Mizer DoubleHard.  They match my engine hp and sawing speed, but they may not work for you and your sawing profile.

Normal blade use is similar to fuel, expendable and part of the job.  I normally use 4 blades per day, but sometime 3 and other times 5-6.  My resharpening cost is ~$15 per blade.

Of course metal, etc. strikes cost the customer $45 each.  This pays for the blade plus my time digging the damaged blade plus foreign stuff from the log.

Your hourly sawing rate is too low (for me) and is not leaving you anything to establish a maintenance fund within your sawing business.  I have no way of knowing what your sawing production rate is but I do know that the customer has to realize value for his $$ or you are out of the sawing business.

I forgot to mention that its just no fun sawing with a dull blade.  :veryangry:
:wink_2: Happiness is a sharp blade. ffwave

Quote from: Magicman on December 07, 2024, 10:28:04 PMNormal blade use is similar to fuel, expendable and part of the job.  I normally use 4 blades per day, but sometime 3 and other times 5-6.  My resharpening cost is ~$15 per blade.

Of course metal, etc. strikes cost the customer $45 each.  This pays for the blade plus my time digging the damaged blade plus foreign stuff from the log.

Your hourly sawing rate is too low (for me) and is not leaving you anything to establish a maintenance fund within your sawing business. 

Appreciate the advice @Magicman !
Yes, I try to keep my advertised hourly rate low to attract customers (cheapest other local sawyer is $60/hr w/ a woodland mills saw). Once I've got a multi-month backlog, I hope to increase rates and be more selective.

I prefer the idea of a blade-charge, but I fear the 'hidden fee's' aspect of a blade-charge may turn some customers off, whereas simply increasing my hourly rate is more digestable... but that places the burden on all customers, not the ones burning up the blades.
Thanks for your input!

- Kevin

Quote from: fluidpowerpro on December 07, 2024, 11:12:28 PMI forgot to mention that its just no fun sawing with a dull blade.  :veryangry:
:wink_2: Happiness is a sharp blade. ffwave

Boy is that ever true!

Quote from: Magicman on December 07, 2024, 10:28:04 PMYour hourly sawing rate is too low (for me) and is not leaving you anything to establish a maintenance fund within your sawing business.

Yes! That's the issue I'm struggling with. 100% !
Should I just bump up the base rate to accommodate the 'costs of doing business', or push the charges on the customer's creating them (e.g. hardwood customers.) I don't want to have 2 sets of rates (depending on wood), so I shy away from the hourly increase, but I'm wondering if maybe 'meeting in the middle' isn't a solution? Raise rates a little, be more frugal with eating the costs of a blade change...

 You're not getting enough money. And pushing dull blades is false economy, because that blade is going to break sooner. 

Pricing models are always kind of a challenge, and some things work better in different locations it seems. I think what what customers want, is to have a good idea what the service is going to cost them. I would if it was me. I know it can be scary to raise prices when you are trying to keep enough work coming in.

I saw by the board foot most of the time. It's easier for the customer to know what they're getting. If they have really low production wood like cedar, then I charge by the hour. 

You could charge by the board foot (gives customer clarity) but let them know that if and when production drops below a certain level, you will go to hourly. 

Let's just throw out .50/bf for a price. If you saw 160 bf/hr, that gives you $80/hr. If the production drops below that level, charge $80/hr minimum. That encourages your customer to keep the logs well prepped and staged, because if production drops their bf price increases. 

I'm just throwing those numbers out for something to chew on. I don't know what your production averages an hour. Either way, you have to bring the rates up to pay for consumables. 

A lot of times by being the cheapest provider, you are steering all of the cheapskates towards yourself. You'll never get ahead working for them👎👎

My opinion is that blades should be like fuel, maintenance, repairs, depreciation  etc. You add up all your expenses for the month, add in the profit / hourly pay you need to make, and that's what you need to be charging per hour. If you can't get that $, pack up and go do something else. 

Sure some jobs are going to use more blades, and you can charge for metal strikes (at your discretion). If you know the blade is on it's last bit of life you can let the client off, but a new blade they should pay for (it's their nail that it hit). But you average over the month / year is what matters. You will get some sweet jobs where everything runs smoothly, and sometimes you think you should have just stayed in bed that day.

Keep the pricing simple, and accept that some jobs are going to go better than others. 

Quote from: barbender on December 08, 2024, 12:18:29 AMA lot of times by being the cheapest provider, you are steering all of the cheapskates towards yourself. 

I think barbender is right about that. These are the customers that cry and whine over every dime they spend. Raising your hourly rate might be the best idea. Personally I don't like the idea of a blade fee, not at all.

Thanks for the input guys!

I also think there is a 'cost to doing business' @Ianab , and you're right: blades, maintenance, fuel, etc. are part of that. I don't like the idea of nickle-and-diming customers, and a straight hourly-rate is more palatable to the types of customers I'm getting. They don't understand boardfeet, and many jobs are loaded w/ production delays that would negatively effect that (did you see the 2-guys w/ straps picture? LOL!) A lot of what I'm landing are 1-day jobs w/ home-owners wanting to cut-up yard trees. They can wrap their head around per-hour, and the rate has never objected to.

I've seen one other local sawyer has a full-page of conditions and fees that go along w/ hiring him... and even I get tired of reading it halfway through. I was leaning towards a blade-charge b/c it seems most fair to me, but I can see it being off-putting to many of the customers I get, and I already spend a lot of time educating them about this industry. Bumping my rate by 10-bucks nets me another $80/day, or 3 blades, which seems like it would be about right... and is one less thing I have to explain.

Know what you mean about being 'cheap' @barbender , it attracts cheap customers (yesterday's was). I joke w/ them that b/c I'm so cheap, I'm obligated to arrive 2 hours late, hungover, and have a busted old truck that breaks down frequently, it's the contractors creed! If I wanted a shiny new truck I'd have to triple my rates and buy a woodmizer. They all get a chuckle... Don't get me wrong, I see the chicken-or-egg situation there. I'd love a new Denali instead of a 20-year old Dodge, believe me. But I paid cash for the truck, and the bank still owns my house, so...

I'm glad to see you get it, building a business takes time and comes with costs. I did not want to take on any debt to start the business, so I knew that would come with trade-offs and struggles (like a manual Norwood and a beat-up Dodge). It is very nice not owing anyone anything at the end of the day. I expected it to take at least a year to generate semi-consistent work for the business, and we're about there. I was working one or two days a month this summer, I'm up to about one or two a week now. Got a multi-day gig lined up for January already. I can finally afford to fix the truck!  ffcool  ffcheesy

When I get a backlog of a few weeks, I'll be more selective, but as it stands now I just can't turn those jobs down. Before starting this adventure I inquired w/ 3 local sawyers, who all told me they have months-long backlogged customers waiting. I meet many of these customers myself: "I talked to another guy, but he was 3 months out, you're the only one who would commit to doing it by this date."

I wasn't a fan of rice and chicken patties when I was in college, but it fed me. I'm not a fan of some of my customers either, but it feeds me. I pickup half-a-steer on the 19th! I'm just happy I'm not eating beans. The new truck can wait.

I see that you have a "manual" sawmill.  Thus said, there is no way that your bf yield per hour can even come close to a higher production sawmill.  The customer has to legitimately expect value for his $$ so if your yield is lower then your hourly rate has to be lower.  It's not the customer's fault that you have a lower production sawmill.

It's well known that I saw bf rate rather than hourly as barbender described above.  On the rare occasions that I saw hourly, that hourly rate will be equivalent to my bf rate.

30.00$ blade, my source is cheaper and is also my resharpening service. I ups the blades back and forth. Yes it's an expense but 1/3 the cost of a new blade.  I would charge up front for a new blade every stop, saw at your hourly rate plus a new blade fee for every change (resharpened or not).

My mill is a little underpowered at 22 hp so I only use 4 degree bands, unless I am sawing cottonwood or pine for dimensional stuff the I have some seven degree bands I consider disposable. 

I agree with the others, raise rates and include blade replacement and sharpening cost in the rate unless a blade hits foreign material in a log.  My customers pay for a new blade for damaged blades like the other sawyers here.

I charge an hourly rate based on my average production.  Much like Magicman, my hourly rate and board feet/hour rate are nearly equal.  My costs are covered either way.

Blades are just part of doing business as are tires for the sawmill for example.  A portion of my rates include replacement of wear parts, fuel, oil, filters, atf, hydraulic oil and so forth - maintenance and repair. 

Most folks expect tradespeople to include the routine consumables in the rate unless specified by law (tire disposal or appliance disposal here).  Whether true or not, the shop fees, consumables fees and other add-on fees tacked on bills seem like money grubbing.

As far as blade changing is concerned, my customers pay for the straightest best quality lumber I can produce in the fastest manner possible.  Sawing with a less than sharp blade runs counter to that. 

At such a low rate, are you subsidizing the sawmill with other income?  In essence "buying work" by working below costs and at a rate below competitors?  That's not sustainable. 

I would have chosen both if I could.
I have been following you along for a while now even if I don't comment much. Your business plan is nearly identical to my thinking, for better or worse. No debt, grow the business as you make more money. collect clients and keep a stellar reputation in tact. I get it.
But when you (we) do that you have to be nimble and recognized changes and learning opportunities. "Problem" is a synonym for "learning opportunity".
I see, as do others, a few options. Frist is: Have two different rates, one for hardwoods and an one for softwoods. The difference is easily explainable and any of your clients, no matter how green should grasp it.
The second option is also one I would take together with the first. You have to raise your rates. As pointed out by s3everal, if you are not making enough money to build your maintenance fund and have contingency money on hand, you are headed for a brick wall. Your mill is new and happy, but that won't last long sawing regularly. Stuff will break or wear out. That fund is not a luxury, it is a part of business and needs to come out of your rate.
Yes, I hear all the reasons you stated for trying to keep things low and I get it. I was, and in some cases still are there, but yo cannot ignore the cost of doing business. You also can't compete with others who are just sawing for beer and video game money.
When I started selling Mushroom logs I charged $4./ea. At the end of the season I looked at my data and realized that after costs, I was making $11.00/hr. Not good, so I went to $5./log. That was better and my efficiencies improved and I was doing 'OK' but lacked the cash to improve the business. For two years now I have been charging $6./log and life has gotten much better. Some clients order a little less, but that's ok. My back is getting old fast, I won't be able to do this much longer, but at least the logs cover a profit plus my chiro bills. But realizing I can't do this forever (a 'problem') has me thinking on how to solve this. So my solution going forward ('learning opportunity') is to begin offering inoculated logs at about $25-30./log. Less cutting, more and easier labor, much higher profit margin. It also let's me spread out the season to sell these all year long.

My point is you have to keep careful track of every expense and study it, then make good choices going forward. If you don't adjust as you go, you will likely shrivel up. I think you are doing great, you just have to keep working at improving it. By the way, don't get scared off when somebody turns you away because you cost too much. That can be a sign you are on the right track too. You need to cull out those 'tire kickers' right away.

Many years ago when I was sawing on a circle mill, I had a custom rate of 20 Cents/bf and $20/nail.  If the customer hesitated, then they weren't sure about the metal in a log.  Custom sawing wasn't a main income driver for the mill.

Maybe add something in about hitting metal.  Saw maintenance is on you, IMO. 

  Its not a straight line cost but the guy having you saw hard woods that use more blades is paying a little more than the customer with the soft woods I'd bet just because you normally have to saw a little slower on those hard logs than the softer ones.

    I'm in the bf camp as my customers understand what a 1000 bf of lumber looks like or I can explain it really quick. A customer will always ask you how many bf you saw per hour and you will always have to say "It depends". Then you have to explain how the type of wood affects sawing speed as does the size boards being cut (You can cut 8/4 faster than 4/4) and how well prepared he is speeds or slows down your sawing. Also how fast is your help? Are they waiting on you or are you waiting on them (I Assume your customer provides the help - mine does.). BTW - you do need to be able to give him a reasonable "Range" of what you normally saw.

    How do you figure the hourly rate? Is it engine hours? Is it from the time you start your truck in the morning or the time you get to the job site or when you are set up and crank the mill? All are legitimate but you need to be dang sure the customer knows before you start the job and stick to that. If you are charging on site time then your customers are paying you to change the blades so the more blades used the more it costs him too - I.e. the guy with the hard logs is paying more than the guy with the soft logs because of more blade changes.

    I rarely do hourly jobs but when I do I use the engine meter and I never shut the mill off between log loading or other delays like I normally do for bf jobs so the faster the customer gets those boards off and the next log on the loading arms the less it is going to cost him. If I change blades or have a short breakdown the mill is off then so that is my time and not the customer expense. On some jobs at the start I tell the customer to set certain logs aside as they will be hourly while the rest will be bf because of the nature of the log or how he wants them sawed (Squared for posts, cookies, quartersawed, etc ).

  Remember the longer it takes you to finish the job the more it costs the customer because he is often paying help, may be renting equipment, or using his valuable time to be there so the faster you get there, get set up and get finished the less it costs him.

  Customers complaining about costs? Maybe I am too cheap because it does not happen with me or they must be complaining to others after I leave and if that is the case why are they calling me come back? I have trouble calling them customers and more often just tell folks I made a new friend because I enjoy working with/for them. Most are excited to see the process and love seeing the boards, slabs and craft pieces coming off the log that they know came off their property.

  It takes time and planning but you need to be real sure of what you are doing and present yourself as the pro. Come in, look the site over, make any quick changes you need to the set up (I've had customers expect me to set up uphill from long logs and I'd go set up on the other side for speed and common sense) or have them show me a log pile and tell me they were going to bring me the logs a couple hundred feet away then be amazed (and thrilled) when I said there was no need as I could set up right there at the logs and cut the time and handling in half.

    Most customers are very impressed when I come in, drive or back up on a couple of boards I brought to level the mill side to side (Nothing is level in WV), drop the outriggers on one end then move the head and do the other and have the shovel and spud bar to make a hole for the landing gear feet or short boards to raise them as needed and be ready to saw in 10-15 minutes from arrival.

  I am anal about bringing the tools and equipment I need, they are always in the same place on my truck so I don't have to go look for a specialty item like a magic hook or axe and wedge if we need them. And don't even think about coming to the site then filling the gas tank on the mill - things like that you do before the job.

    I bring a big chainsaw in case I have to cut a log or big knot that I rarely use and I bring a small electric chainsaw or cordless circle saw to cut stickers or so they can salvage a 3-4 ft board off the scrap pile. These are items a new customer does not know he is going to need.

    Before sawing I discuss and brief them on safety and off limits areas on the mill when I am sawing and also where they can and can't work for maximum efficiency and to stay out of my way. They are pleased when I show them they can move a trailer or truck near the end of the mill and slide the boards directly on instead of having to carry heavy boards a long way. It makes it easier and faster on them. Assume the customer knows nothing about sawing or log handling and proceed accordingly. They often don't know how a cant hook works and I remember two brothers at cross purposes trying to load a log one time and looking like 2 monkeys trying to hump a football. You have to show them then they do okay. Time spent training the help is a great investment.

  I help them set different dunnage for different lengths and thickness so at the end of the job their wood is organized for better use for them and I can tally it quicker and more accurately. They don't know and will set up 4' wide stacks of lumber then realize their tractor or skid steer with its 3' forks can't move the stacks. They will try to set up 8' wide stacks of lumber that will never get air flow and most will rot or plan to completely cover the stack with a tarp if you don't advise them at the start.

    Remember the customer is not just buying your sawing service and renting your mill for the day - he is paying for your advice and expertise so learn all you can and pass it along to them.

    If its not fun you need to be selling lady's shoes or something else for a living or the extra income.

Raise your hourly rate.  As a customer it concerns me that you are essentially saying, if you want quality, pay for more blades.  Your goal should be a quality product and charge accordingly.

I had some walnut and oak cut by a member here (thanks Patton) and was pleased with the results.  For my use and age, I think I almost have a lifetime supply, but it I ever needed sawing services again, I wouldn't shop around, I would just call him and pay hist rate.

I just got done processing some ash that my brother had milled by a circular saw mill in a different part of the state.  The difference in quality was like night and day.  Some boards had significant taper from end to end, like 3/4".  The blade must have had significant wobble, it took many more jointer face passes to remove all marks.  I would never use that sawyer, regardless of price.

One other off topic example of quality and how it might affect your business.  We had visited a BBQ restaurant several times.  The last time we went my wife's pulled pork sandwich had large chunks of unshredded pork.  We didn't say anything at the time, but I sent them a private email expressing my concern.  The owner responded and offered free meal, BUT, he also added that he noticed his staff hadn't properly done their jobs.  If he had come out of the kitchen and checked to see if there were any issues we would still be going there.  The fact that he knew put out a poor quality product and decided to not do anything unless someone complained means will will never go back.

Good luck, put out a quality product and charge accordingly.

Doug in SW IA

Like others, I think your rate is too low.  I would avoid a blade charge for dull blades but I do charge for metal strikes. 

I would throw one other possibility out there.  Reward good customers by giving them a discount at the end of the job.  Don't advertise it or even offer up front but if it's someone who was a pleasure to deal with, had good logs and generally someone you want as a customer knocking off $25 bucks or so will make them feel good.  But tell them it's because they are are good customer or the logs were such a pleasure to saw, or they wanted 8/4 lumber or whatever makes them a good customer.  They will feel good and it's cheap advertising for you as long as it's only for the "good" customers.

Quote from: NewYankeeSawmill on December 07, 2024, 09:10:07 PMI spent more money on blades than I anticipated. I want to adjust my pricing to recoup this cost.

I'm losing money on blade changes, and not re-couping the costs when sawing oaks, hickory, etc.

I made $25, paid $25 for the blade... That's not sustainable.

I can solve the problem by increasing my hourly rate (say $60-65/hr) and spread the cost of the blades across all customers, or change-up how I bill and add a blade-fee.

To me, doing the math, your net profit is being eaten up by a routine consumable, a blade, and you must raise your price from $50 t $65?  That's a 23% increase just to cover a sawmill band?  That means you are way undercharging for your operation, for whatever your inputs costs are.  

There are three conditions of a business, 1.  Out of business, 2.Going out of business and 3.Staying in business.  To me you seem to be in condition 2, but have recognized it, and you have a choice to make, go to condition 1 or go to condition 3.  

The same people who will whine that you are charging too much will also whine when you go out of business.  So making your business decision based on them is meaningless.  I have this conversation with customers several times a day about mine and other prices across the industry, not only lumber, but plumbing, roofing, tree cutting etc, and tell them my prices are "Spreadsheet Prices" and the spreadsheet doesn't lie.  Simple and not negotiable.    

Quote from: Magicman on December 08, 2024, 08:05:03 AMI see that you have a "manual" sawmill.  Thus said, there is no way that your bf yield per hour can even come close to a higher production sawmill.  The customer has to legitimately expect value for his $$ so if your yield is lower then your hourly rate has to be lower.  It's not the customer's fault that you have a lower production sawmill.

I seem to recall you and I have had disagreements about this topic, before? Sounds like you understand why my rate is what it is!

Boardfeet makes sense if you have Hydraulic Woodmizer, but not w/ a manual Norwood. For some reason I can't get a lot of folks here to understand their business model doesn't fit everybody else. Glad you see it now!

  I respectfully disagree on the bf rate being only for people with hydraulic/faster mills. I think it should be the basis for all sawing. You might have to charge a higher bf rate to be profitable just like you now see you need to raise your hourly rate because of unexpected consumable/blade costs.

    I'd base my bf rate on sawing normal, decent, well prepared and properly stacked logs so I can come in and set up and saw them quickly and get out.

    If the customer does not meet those conditions then I drop back to an hourly rate but make sure it is obvious the hourly rate is more than a bf rate would have been if the logs had been properly prepared. I am clear to my customers normal is bf rate and abnormal is hourly because I came to make a profit as well as providing a service.

    Its like log prep or stacking or other related tasks. Tell the customer up front you don't like to do them but if it is necessary you will do so but require adequate compensation. Adequate to me means I am making more than I would have made just sawing lumber. I like it when a customer says "For that rate I can just do it myself or hire another unskilled helper." That is what I have been trying to tell him to do all along.

    The exception for me is specialty sawing like posts, beams and cabin logs. They go fast and we produce a lot of bf quickly. I find it is easier on me to just calculate them on hourly rates and the customer appreciates the savings. I don't want to waste my time trying to tally them.

  I have not done it but have always considered a per log rate but then I'd have to sit down and determine and enforce a good, fair and understandable definition of such logs.  I'd expect I'd end up with a range of $25 logs, $35 logs, $100 logs etc. It would help encourage the customer to eliminate some of the small stuff that slow me sown and would cost him more. The advantage to the customer is he would know before ever starting exactly what his costs would be.

Quote from: SawyerTed on December 08, 2024, 09:35:04 AMMost folks expect tradespeople to include the routine consumables in the rate unless specified by law (tire disposal or appliance disposal here).  Whether true or not, the shop fees, consumables fees and other add-on fees tacked on bills seem like money grubbing.
.....
At such a low rate, are you subsidizing the sawmill with other income?  In essence "buying work" by working below costs and at a rate below competitors?  That's not sustainable.

Agreed, I don't like the 'feel' of a blade fee. Many of the customers have both hard and softwoods, so I don't think I want to make 2-rates, although it does give me the effect of placing the costs w/ the logs that incur them, which is what attracted me to the blade fee idea.

Yes, I make most of my income from trading stocks and options, so the sawmill business is only a portion of it. The LLC also allows me to tax advantage my 'toys' (like a bigger tractor, newer truck, etc., etc.) My accountant tells me I can't expense the bass boat. ffcheesy
I'm not losing money, just not netting as much as I would like. After deducting expense from pay, the hourly rate isn't where I want it to be for my time.

Thanks @YellowHammer , you are correct! After a year of doing this, I can see some parts of the business plan that need adjusting. Just trying to figure out the best way to do it, w/o losing any customers or business opportunities.

Funny you mention the discount idea @TreefarmerNN . I give 10% off to military, police, EMS, etc., and have a different rate entirely for "friends and neighbors". If you pay cashish, I was never here....

One of the reasons I've been OK w/ the rate being so low thus far is most customers give me a large tip at the end of the job. Like a hundred dollar bill or 3... it's like the inverse of a discount? That also tells me I do have room to move up my rate, and that customers currently feel they are getting good value for their money at the end of the job. Guarantee @dougtrr2 didn't tip for the crummy BBQ sandwich.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 08, 2024, 01:14:28 PMI'd base my bf rate on sawing normal, decent, well prepared and properly stacked logs so I can come in and set up and saw them quickly and get out.

Ha! Perchance to dream! Yeah, I get the bottom of the barrel customers a lot of other folks pass on or walk away from...  ffsmiley I'm lucky if the logs are all in the same pasture. Another reason BF-rate won't work for my situation. Every job has production delays outside my control. Frankly I don't mind one bit! I designed around the issue w/ the business plan: I'm getting paid while they futz with their helper, tractor, whatever. I'll be over here nibbling on my sandwich, let me know when you're ready!

If close enough and/or possible, I do a meet-n-greet at the logpile, but that's another expense I don't get paid for. Trying to avoid it - send me some pictures and I'll call you to discuss. I can usually get a good feel when initially talking w/ the customer about the job - they either understand the language or ask a lot of questions, which tells me how much hand-holding I need to do. A few of the more recent customers had prior experience w/ a mobile sawmill, and we end up talking about a lot of these very topics!

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 08, 2024, 09:51:45 AMMy point is you have to keep careful track of every expense and study it, then make good choices going forward. If you don't adjust as you go, you will likely shrivel up. I think you are doing great, you just have to keep working at improving it. By the way, don't get scared off when somebody turns you away because you cost too much. That can be a sign you are on the right track too. You need to cull out those 'tire kickers' right away.

Thanks for all of the advice! I was starting to see signs of this problem earlier in the year, but didn't have that many jobs or different customers to get a consensus. Working 1-2 days a month just isn't a lot of data. I don't want to change anything during the calendar year, but see Jan 1st as my opportunity to make a change.

Quote from: NewYankeeSawmill on December 08, 2024, 12:44:40 PMI seem to recall you and I have had disagreements about this topic, before? Sounds like you understand why my rate is what it is!
........... Glad you see it now!

I have not changed my stance whatsoever.  I can not and will not ever suggest what your hourly or bf rate should be.  What I have continually said is that your customer has to received value for their $$ or they will take their business elsewhere.  Your profitability is your responsibility, not theirs.

I'm a hobby sawyer with a manual mill. I really don't think I could run it for 50.00/hour and expect to make a living. A blade an hour (25.00) leaves you 25.00 for everything else. When you figure fuel, maintenance, mill cost, taxes, insurance, etc., 25 an hour won't go far. If you are pushing that blade to save a dime you are sacrificing quality that will come back to haunt you. Blades and sharpening are a cost of doing business and should be included in your service.  I wouldn't want a customer telling me to keep sawing with a dull blade in order for him to save a buck. That buck is gonna come out of my pocket sooner or later on extra wear and tear on the mill.

You could sharpen blades on your down time to save on blades. I can easily do 3 blades an hour on the Woodland Mills sharpener while doing other things at the same time. If you are only netting 25/hr on sawing, that means you can sharpen and save a blade for 8.00.

Once upon a time an old sawyer won the lottery. When asked what he was going to do with his winnings, he replied "Well, guess I can afford to keep sawing for a few more years now." ffcheesy

When I started I was sawing by the BF.  Then one customer/off bearer decided that any boards with any wane he tossed on the side of the slab pile.  I just knew that he was going to reclaim them after the counting was complete and I had left.  That was the day I went to $'s per hour.  Doing that I do not make any math mistakes tallying boardfootage and the final cost is quicker to calculate.
I charge for blades destroyed because of foreign objects in the log(s).
Now blades damaged because I was tired and hit the log stop or other parts of the mill well that is my problem, however the sparks get customer attention.
Suggestion: If you have a battery powered angle grinder put a cut off wheel in it and add it to your tool list for sawing jobs.  When a blade is destroyed especialy if it has two ends make life easier for your self and add more ends as short pieces are easier to handle.
GAB

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 08, 2024, 09:51:45 AMI see, as do others, a few options. Frist is: Have two different rates, one for hardwoods and an one for softwoods. The difference is easily explainable and any of your clients, no matter how green should grasp it.

OG:
Would you saw tamarack as a hardwood or a softwood?
GAB

I seem to be reading where readers are subtracting the $25 per blade cost from the $50 hourly rate.  Blade cost is the same as fuel (consumable) and should be deducted from the daily ($400) rate. 

If a blade per hour is being used, something is bad wrong.

Looking at GAB's post above, I decide what is lumber and what are slabs and explain why.  I insist on 3 good corners and at least one half of the board and edge width.  That is easy for anyone to understand.  Maybe that is another reason that I do not use a board dragback/return.  All of the lumber and lumber handling is in front of me.

For the record, I have never had anyone that I felt was trying to "gip" or intentionally "shortchange" me.  I have never had anyone to question an invoice, and I have never failed to be paid for sawing.

@GAB .

  I have never had a customer take a board off the stack and put it in/beside the scrap pile to come back later and retrieve to avoid bf charges. I often have them take boards off my loading arms in my "to be edged" stack and go stack them as finished because they are fine for their intended purpose. I always show the customer when there is a little wane and offer to edge if off. Most of the time if they have one clean side they are fine. I am more discerning about cleaning up the wane than they are. I point out they can have an 8' board with 6' of clean wood 8" wide or I can edge it down to a clean 6" board that is 8' long and most prefer the wider board and point out they can always run it through a table saw later if they need the longer, clean edge.

Yankee,

  My situation is different than many others as I often refer to my sawing as a cost neutral hobby. I don't depend on it for a living but I don't expect to pay to saw other people's logs into lumber. I am anal diligent about keeping up with my costs and if I do a site visit I list it on my mileage expenses. If it is 5 mile side trip on a normal shopping trip to town, I record the side trip. Many and maybe most of those site visits do not turn into actual sawing jobs and some are because when I get there I tell the "customer" his logs aren't worth sawing or at least they are logs I do not want to saw so ultimately it still saves me money in the long run.

    I compare my expenses to my income to determine my rates. Obviously I can afford to accept a lower salary for my work than someone depending on it to support a family or send kids to college. If/When the juice ain't worth the squeeze I'll raise my rates or I will quit sawing. Increasingly my sawing is for repeat customers or from referrals they made.

    Also I have a lot more latitude in which jobs I will take. I am concerned about some of your comments about the customers you "have" to take to stay in business and about some of their complaints about costs and such. I have sawed logs that I did not enjoy but only because I liked the customers so well and enjoyed their company and that was the trade off.

   BTW - my pay is cash or check and I don't care which. I've never not been paid or gotten a bad check. I don't do credit cards and I don't give discounts for cash as it all gets reported the same. I sleep easy and never have to worry about an audit should one come my way.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 08, 2024, 05:51:44 PMYankee,

  My situation is different than many others as I often refer to my sawing as a cost neutral hobby. I don't depend on it for a living but I don't expect to pay to saw other people's logs into lumber.

Same with me.
I charge $65 per hour.
Thats about the most I can get away with considering the saw I have.
If I wanted to charge more I would need to invest a considerable amount of money in a faster saw and even then there would be no guarantees that I'm profitable.

Unfortunately I think thats what your running into. The market dictates a price point but your equipment wont support it.

Maybe there are guys doing it, but I think it would be pretty hard to make any money using a manual saw.

At $50 an hour your subsidizing your customer.
You definitely need to raise your prices however even after that the best you can probably expect is to cover your costs. 

One of the pressures my business is experiencing is the number of COVID-19 mills that people bought thinking they would cash in on the high lumber prices due to that bubble.  

I'm not being critical but these guys are killing me by selling lumber at low prices that would be a loss for me.  With availability of low cost rough cut lumber, people are saving their own trees and buying the cheap lumber.  Customers aren't hiring portable millers.  

As I mentioned before, some guys are subsidizing their mills from other sources and undercutting the guys trying to run a business.  Essentially, they are "paying" customers to take their lumber.  Or if portable sawing is their thing, they are "buying" the work at bargain prices.

I'm waiting for the luster to wear off or for their small manual mills to begin experiencing some breakdowns. 

My biggest competitor just sold his mill and edger.   He has a tree service business and just couldn't sell his lumber to cover costs.  

Do you have a debarker on your mill? If not I would strongly suggest you put on on if there is any possible way. Your blade life will improve dramatically. 

Quote from: GAB on December 08, 2024, 04:12:15 PM

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 08, 2024, 09:51:45 AMI see, as do others, a few options. Frist is: Have two different rates, one for hardwoods and an one for softwoods. The difference is easily explainable and any of your clients, no matter how green should grasp it.

OG:
Would you saw tamarack as a hardwood or a softwood?
GAB

Ah, that's a trick question and I ain't gonna fall in that trap. Probably softwood, but I have never had a tamarack log, so I really don't know. Not common here.

    Good answer Tom and if I had that kind of price schedule I would discuss which category I included it in before I started sawing. I'd say its a hardwood but I include tulip poplar as a softwood and tamarack (I've only sawed one and it was a bear!) in my hardwood grouping. I might even have another special category for hickory and have told many customers with a hickory log or two if I had a lot I might have a different rate for them.

  As I have said before so many times - all pricing schemes are fair as long as both parties know, understand and agree before the sawing starts and the agreement is followed by both parties.

No trick questions for me and no guessing games.  All tree/log species and all lumber dimensions are sawed for the same bf rate.  I solved that during my first year of sawing and my bf rate was established accordingly.  :thumbsup:

Lynn,

    Same here but I have seen sawyers with different rates. I try to keep mine as simple as possible for me and the customer.

QuoteMaybe there a guys doing it, but I think it would be pretty hard to make any money using a manual saw.

You can make a little income, but it's a tough row to hoe. 

if you saw by the hour,, then it is proportional to each customer hour.  a blade is like a flat fee.  do both if needed to make ends meet.

Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2024, 07:57:11 PMDo you have a debarker on your mill? If not I would strongly suggest you put on on if there is any possible way. Your blade life will improve dramatically.

Unfortunately not an option on Norwood's mill. Hence why I'm trying so hard to fit my business model to my mill and customers.

Thanks for the thoughts @fluidpowerpro , I haven't 'hit' that wall yet, but yes, it's out there in front of me. Trying to get closer to it. I don't think I could charge $75/hr, but think $60-65 will be accepted in my market. At my existing rate I _know_ I'm cheap (relatively to local competition as well as from a profit-perspective), that was deliberate to help grow and develop the business, and why no-debt was an important factor. I am more than covering my expenses, but not 'making' as much money as I would like for the time I'm trading off. I expected to have to do this for about a year, year and a half, so I'm target.

The future goal is to use profit to upgrade the operation (either by adding features to the existing mill or buying a different one). If I can't do it that way, I should start selling lady's shoes as @WV Sawmiller suggested! LOL! The goal of the operation/LLC is to supplement my trading income and provide a tax-shelter for toys. Imagine I'm a retired guy where SS covers my needs. This pays for my wants.

I don't average a blade-per-hour @TroyC , I had one customer recently with all oak and walnut, and we cooked about 5 or 6 blades per day, yielding ~1.5 logs per blade (there was one metal strike, found a bullet cutting a mantle slab). I could clean up a log, cut it, clean up the next one, but then quality started suffering and we changed. That exceeded my anticipated usage of 2-3 hardwood logs per blade, but admittedly they were all over 20" diameter (e.g. big logs), and only general use blades. I get 5-10 pine logs per blade, depending. These were on a Norwood brand 10-degree standard blade, which certainly affected life of the blade. I blew through a box of Norwoods new "BlueFlex" 7-degree blades but they performed equally poor. I'd wager a 7-degree or 4-degree double-hard will last a lot longer. I have a 10-pack en route from Menominee I ordered last week (after that job killed my inventory). I may also have to start stocking more blade types to meet the performance I'm looking for. Hoping to standardize on one type for 90% of my work, and buying in quantity to lower price.

I have noticed a big increase in the number of >2 year old mills for sale in the local marketplace @SawyerTed , I think you are right about that shine wearing off for some. Also one reason I want to kick my rates up Jan 1st!  ffcool

Thanks again all!

I think is comes down to two questions, at least in my situation it did:
1.  What net profit does it take for you to make enough money to stay in business PLUS stay motivated to keep doing it, PLUS upgrade your equipment?  Or for that matter, not doing it, and going fishing? As I've said before, sawing is fun for the first few thousand logs, then it's work.  That's what we did, I started with an LT15 manual, then made enough money for a LT40, then moved up to a 70.   

2.  How do you achieve that minimum amount of money, knowing you can try multiple pricing strategies or tests at the same time?  It doesn't have to be just one strategy, you've been doing this for a year, so time to experiment.  People pay for value, which usually translates to customer service and quality of product, as well as delivery time.  That is the whole basis of our business, and many others.  In reality, the customer could not give a rat's rear end what kind of mill you are using, they want their wood coming out straight and as high grade as possible for the logs they supply, in a timely manner. 

Oh, I ALWAYS billed for a new band on a metal strike, not negotiable.  I can't make money wasting time digging a bent and hung band out a log, then digging the nails and staples out.  It was a good way to keep the customer motivated to bring me metal free logs.  I also had a rule that if I hit metal twice in one log, and ruined two bands, and blew my profit, then the log was coming off the mill, or I shifted to $250 per hour.  No one ever took me up on that one.

One way I separated myself from all the other local sawmillers, was that I guaranteed I could get their lumber back in a couple weeks, sometimes less.  How?  I gradually kept raising my price until I was almost twice that of the local mills who were less expensive but had many months long delivery times, some to the point where the logs would half rot waiting to be sawn. The best lumber comes from fresh logs, and the customers intuitively know that.  My customer base went down, but the people who showed up would pay more knowing they were getting a better product, faster, and so I made more money by sawing less!  What sense does it make to be backlogged for months when you can raise your price and only be backlogged for a couple weeks?  So I used my pricing as a way to throttle business.  Think of all the people who pay an expedite fee on shipping, and those same people had no trouble paying an expedite fee for their lumber.

Also, if customers are tipping you, it's their way of saying you are not charging enough for the service you are providing.  Listen to them!       

I think Resonator hit the nail on the head. I'd hate to try to make a living with a manual saw.

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 08, 2024, 09:24:32 PM

Quote from: GAB on December 08, 2024, 04:12:15 PM

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 08, 2024, 09:51:45 AMI see, as do others, a few options. Frist is: Have two different rates, one for hardwoods and an one for softwoods. The difference is easily explainable and any of your clients, no matter how green should grasp it.

OG:
Would you saw tamarack as a hardwood or a softwood?
GAB

Ah, that's a trick question and I ain't gonna fall in that trap. Probably softwood, but I have never had a tamarack log, so I really don't know. Not common here.

OG:
I've only sawed two tamarack logs and going by those two logs if you think pine is pitchy you ain't seen nuttin.  I totally agree with WV Sawmiller in entry #38 concerning tamarack log sawing.
GAB

QuoteI think Resonator hit the nail on the head. I'd hate to try to make a living with a manual saw.

It amounts to a part time income. Sawing alone isn't enough, I have to sell lumber, build things out of the lumber, and do other non-sawmill work.
To upgrade to a new mill, list price $38,000 for a base LT40 wide hydraulic. $53,000 for one with a diesel.

Whenever any customer asked me "what's a boardfoot?" I'd reply it's a volume measurement. A square foot, one inch thick. Most people understand what a square foot is. And that answer seemed to sink in most of the time.

When I was sawing full time, I almost always sawed by the bdft. Unless I was resawing salvage beams into flooring. That job was by the hour.

I would keep track of every board/plank or timber as it left the mill table. If the customer through it in the junk pile and I thought it had some value, or that he was going to pull it later and add it to his stack (if sawing on site), I'd add it to my tally. If they wanted to throw away a good piece of lumber that's up to them. But I'm going to get paid for cutting it regardless of which pile it went into.

Many years ago, while having lunch with a bunch of sawyers we discussed how we were getting paid. One sawyer said he was getting paid by the hour at $100 per hour. And that at his last job he sawed for 8 hours. I mentioned to him that at my last, on-site job, I sawed for 8 hours as well, and that I got $1 per bdft. I had sawed 1400 bdft that day. Lots of great logs straight and wide lumber produced. I got paid $1400 for that job. He looked at me when he realized he left $600 on the table by not sawing by the bdft. He was reconsidering his sawing rate and practice.

I never wanted to saw by the hour as I never wanted a customer to tell me to saw faster. Sawing faster would/could make lower quality lumber. I wanted to saw at my speed and make good lumber.

Jim Rogers

I am a hobby guy and often charge nothing.  If I charge the time stats with unloading and loading their trailer/vehicle.  If I show them how to sticker or do planing for them same charge.  I only charge folks I barely know.  friends that do wood working, I let them throw cash as they feel inclined, and they often do things for me in return.  As a hobby I just show cash to my wife, and she feels my time is not wasted.  for friends, family and coworkers, the returns are good as gold anyway.

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 09, 2024, 09:52:48 AMI think is comes down to two questions, at least in my situation it did:
1.  What net profit does it take for you to make enough money to stay in business PLUS stay motivated to keep doing it, PLUS upgrade your equipment?  Or for that matter, not doing it, and going fishing? As I've said before, sawing is fun for the first few thousand logs, then it's work.  That's what we did, I started with an LT15 manual, then made enough money for a LT40, then moved up to a 70. 
......
....
..
Also, if customers are tipping you, it's their way of saying you are not charging enough for the service you are providing.  Listen to them!     

Thanks for the advice! My plan for things roughly parallels your experience! You are correct, coming up on a year, it's time to start looking at what changes to make, hence this whole thread!
I'm still happy sawing logs, meeting new friends for a day or three, and everything else is moving in the right direction. I identified my blade-usage as a metric that was out of whack w/ my original plans.
I knew my rates were low, that was intentional to attract customers and get the name circulating, figured I'd have to do it for a year. I took the (large) tips as a sign I was under-charging, and that customer's saw good value in the service I am providing. Another indicator it's time to increase my rates (and I like round numbers like Jan 1st).

RE: #2, I believe like you Customer Service is key. Most of my customers are extremely ignorant (mind you, that's ME: the rookie, saying that!), and require a lot of hand-holding. I've also landed several jobs b/c "the LT40 guy said 6 months". I've tried talking to the customers w/ nice logs about quarter-sawing, etc., and none are interested. I talk to them about quality of wood that comes off the end, drying, cupping, warping... not interested. Make a cant, whack it into boards. OK, Mr. Customer, Sir. Not my wood, so I do what they ask of me.
I've even pointed out when a board separates and one end warps upwards: Hey, this is what I'm talking about, that movement indicates it's going to dry like that. Still not interested. Shrug, ran into the same attitude in the print biz when customers wanted digital vs. offset. Ink is way better than toner, buuuuut.... $$$ won the day, they all bought digital. If you didn't listen (e.g. bought a digital press and transitioned your business model), you were out of business in 5 years. That being said, there are ink-on-paper printers still around, but the business models have completely changed, and most of them have had to specialize or become niche printers (e.g. High Quality Hardwoods have a finite market potential - Barn builders aren't buying your wood) You've found how to meet your customers and grow your business in the direction you want it to go. I'm just a decade or so behind you LOL!

This is one reason I'm a stubborn SOB about it. Been there, done that. Got a worthless B. of A. and 25 year career, but no T-shirt. Now if I had customers like yours, I'd be sawing differently, but that's not who pings my FB ad's. I HOPE to one day have higher quality customers, but for now this is what it is. Can't wish it into existence. I expected 1 year of hard-row, hoping year 3 or 4 I can be selective and actually turn customers down. Year 2 is the year to experiment, 3 to refine. Time will tell.

Have to L O L @TroyC , yep, it's work allright! Fortunately I have another income stream. The sawmill is supposed to be secondary income stream to my trading. I can make a months worth of sawing income in a few hours in the QQQ's if I catch the right options contracts, but that doesn't happen every day. Won't even talk about Crypto, it's still the wild-wild west, but it brought in a nice chunk last month, so I keep plugging away at it...

Thanks for the comments @Jim_Rogers and @doc henderson ! It's still a for-profit enterprise, but I'm finding resistance from customers when I try to push quality. I think largely because they're not often wood-workers. They're home-owners looking to extract some value from some logs they'd otherwise have to pay someone to chop or grind up. They figure if they pay me to saw them, they get a pile of lumber, vs. a pile a woodchips. Most of the time they don't even have a project or cut-list in mind for the wood! They just want to see the logs --> lumber. That's tough on me! OK, I made you a cant, what do you want me to do with it? "I dunno, you're the sawyer..."   :uhoh:  ffcheesy   ffsmiley

When I first started, I sawed all boards as fast and best as I could, whether the customer knew what I was doing or not, if nothing else, for practice.  Trust me, customers, especially ones who have used other hacks before, will remember when they compare straight wood vs garbage wood, and that will make your reputation.
 
I still get thos calls all the time, people asking me to saw their logs because the last time they had so and so do it, and they got garbage back.  So your customers may not pay extra for quality, but many will return because of it.

I'd didn't start by only sawing high grade furniture wood, I sawed every log a customer brought.  I especially loved the customer who would bring enough logs for their "barn package" because that meant, since I charged by the bdft, I was going to be burning through them and my paycheck was going up.  That's the reason I charged by the board foot, the faster I got, the more money I made, then I could upgrade my equipment.  You will notice that the vast majority of production time of a sawmill is not because of the speed of the sawmill, it's the efficiency of the operation.  So as I increased my efficiency, I increased my bdft yield, my profits went up, and most times, things actually got easier.  Take steps to save steps and "make mo money."  If you charge by the hour, then the motivaiopotn to get more efficient decreases.... 

If you do not have an active webpage then you need to get one.  CL and FB are ok, at best, but, where do you, and 99% of the people who do their first, initial search for any product?  Google or a conventional web search.  Then they go to secondary searches.  So if you have a good webpage, you will get the "first search" people before they ever have a chance to go to FB or CL.  And I will say this, I don't even do FB or CL anymore, simply because the vast majority of searchers on them are of the "picker" mentality, and our business and clientele picked up considerably as we moved to more conventional search engines.  So as a new business, you should have a presence on both. 

Great advice, thanks @YellowHammer !

Quote from: NewYankeeSawmill on December 10, 2024, 06:40:31 AMI've tried talking to the customers w/ nice logs about quarter-sawing, etc., and none are interested. I talk to them about quality of wood that comes off the end, drying, cupping, warping... not interested. Make a cant, whack it into boards. OK, Mr. Customer, Sir. Not my wood, so I do what they ask of me.
I've even pointed out when a board separates and one end warps upwards: Hey, this is what I'm talking about, that movement indicates it's going to dry like that. 

Thats the same thing I experience. 
At the end of the day it seems all they care about is how big their stack of boards is. Especially if I'm sawing dimensional construction lumber.

Quote"I dunno, you're the sawyer..."

When they ever said that to me, I'd say ok it's done and it's time for you to carry it off the sawmill table.
And I'd get: "oh no, I want boards."

Then it would start, ok, what thickness? What width?

It got to the point where I had a sheet with all my questions written down that I would give or email to them up front so that I'd know what they wanted. So, I didn't have to stop and ask at each log.

I wouldn't take " "I dunno, you're the sawyer..."  for an answer. That's no way to satisfy a customer.

Jim Rogers

   I guess we all get that question or a variation of it. When the customer asks me what I'd make out of a log/cant, I tell them I would make whatever I needed as long as the log was big enough and an appropriate species.

   I sort of which they'd tell me to cut what I want. I hope they are good at stacking 2X10s all day long. ffcheesy

I really do not recall being asked by a customer what he should ffsmiley saw from a particular log.
I always get a cut list then I decide what will come from his logs based on that cut list.  

I may make a suggestion if he has a maverick log that really will not saw anything that he is particularly wanting.  I may also very well not scale nor charge for sawing it.  I may tell him that it is a surprise for his wife.  :wink_2:

When I ask what do you need cut from your logs?  I get everything from "just boards" to a specific cut list pulled from a bill of materials. 

"Just boards" requires considerably more conversation.   The definition of "a board" requires some clarification!  ffcheesy  And what's the difference between a board and a plank, because I get "I need planks to..." every once in a while. ffcheesy

A cut list is great but for some customers it's a stretch to get what they want from their logs!  

Seems like I'm always "educating" customers.  

Often a customer has a project in mind but just needs some prompting to articulate what they need. 

I agree, I got a lot of that request!  Most of my customers would supply a general cut list, "I need a bunch of 2x4's and some flat wood" but some would bring a trailer load of logs, and just say "Cut it, I don't care what thickness" and I would always default to 4/4 flat sawn, because that's what I could sell easiest. ffcheesy  Quite often, when the customer would come pick up the lumber pile, it would be much larger than they expected, or more expensive, because I could about beat Doyle every time, and then they would start the "negotiation" or whining.  As in, "Can we just split it, and so that would pay for my part?"  Nope, never, because there is no money in "splitting it."  So the answer was, "Pay me for what I've sawn and whatyoj want, and if you can only pay up to a ceiling then you can take what you pay for, and I get the remainder of your wood for free."  Then they would say "But your're gonna sell it" and I would say of course, I need to make up my sawing fee somehow.  Most would agree, they get the lumber they want, they don't exceed their budget, I get paid, and I keep their excess and "dispose" of it at a profit.  Everybody is happy, especially since I could take the lumber I sawed at 50 cents per bdft, using their free logs, and whatever they didn't want, I could easily flip for twice the sawing price, at $1 per bdft, even green.  So it wouldn't bother me at all if they left half the pile with me, because I would double my profit.  After all, I am in the lumber selling business.

MM,

  I get 2 basic kinds of customers.

  One has a detailed cut list and I like that. Even then they will usually say cut this much into specific framing and make the rest into 4/4 boards or tell me to make the rest into 2X4s or such.

  The other has some logs from salvage or clearing or such that they don't want to see go to waste but have no specific plan for the lumber and they are the ones who ask me what to make from them. I may tell them it would make certain kinds of good boards but the decision is always theirs. I may even have to cut a couple of samples to show them the differences between one inch, 3/4", 1-1/8", 5/4, 6/4, 8/4, etc.

  Sometimes I will make a cut into a log and the customer will see some figure he likes and have me change from our previous discussions and saw it into 1/2" paneling or a 3" mantel or 2" bench, etc. Depending on how far along I am with sawing the cant it may mess up my plan for that log an I'll have to make a trim cut or two

Maybe I was being too specific or not specific enough when I said "cut list". 

There is very seldom a number of the various dimensions.  He may say; 2X4's from the 8's and 2X6's from the 12's and 16's.  Then I may remind him that he needs some 2X4 top plates, etc. and will need a few 2X8's for his ridges.  He may also say; "OK, I have enough of these, so saw the rest in those".  We work together so the cut list is generally "in progress" as I saw.   It would be a very rare occasion when the customer is not there when I am sawing.

I have not shown the pictures yet but I have a very nice framing lumber job coming up in January, all from fresh felled trees.  I also have another total framing lumber job scheduled for March, again fresh felled logs.  These will be a welcome change from the beetle/drought killed trees that I sawed this year.

Where the small and easily portable mills come in is for the small jobs. 1/2 day sawing a couple of logs. Sure a full size hydraulic mill might knock the job out in an hour, but they aren't interested in one log in a back yard, and might charge ~$400 minimum or setup charge. Now if you can roll in, and charge ~$60 on hour, and it takes 4 hours, then you are the better option. Because $240 is less than $400. 

And yes the "what to cut" is a genuine question in that scenario too. I ask, "What do you want the wood for? It might be build a shed, in which case they need 2x4s and "x by 1s". Or some live edge slabs for a table, or for wood working projects (may q-sawed?) Some folks may never use the wood, but they didn't want it to go to waste.  

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 10, 2024, 07:21:15 AM........

If you do not have an active webpage then you need to get one.  CL and FB are ok, at best, but, where do you, and 99% of the people who do their first, initial search for any product?  Google or a conventional web search.  Then they go to secondary searches.  So if you have a good webpage, you will get the "first search" people before they ever have a chance to go to FB or CL.  And I will say this, I don't even do FB or CL anymore, simply because the vast majority of searchers on them are of the "picker" mentality, and our business and clientele picked up considerably as we moved to more conventional search engines.  So as a new business, you should have a presence on both. 

I didn't see where you answered this question but I would like to add a Plus One on this comment, since the discussion deals almost as much with educating and grooming clients as it does with how you charge them. As has been said, nobody likes paying charges they don't understand.

 So having a good website serves a lot of purposes besides what Robert pointed out, letting the clients find you. It is a great place to deposit that educational and preparatory information for your clients as well. I quickly tired of getting the same (very reasonable ) questions all the time and spending a lot of time repeating myself, so I put it on my website and could then hand people my card and refer them to the site for the detailed info, complete with other references they could look up to confirm some things or get alternative views. That proved helpful and so much so, that I put a bunch of effort into the mushroom log side of the website with lots of references for other supplies and resources.  That, in itself turned out to be the one thing that 'sold' a lot of first time clients just by itself. I got a lot of phone calls from new clients and the first thig they would say it "I found your website and thank you so much for putting all that out there, it cleared up SO many questions for me. I'd like to order some logs....". The way it worked out (as far as I can figure) is that folks knew, or now know, that they are not just doing a one time exchange with me for logs. They are getting me as a free resource for ongoing information and growth.. In other words, it builds that relationship you are looking for.

 When I would do shows and other things, the single most common question people asked was "What the heck is a mushroom log?!" I mean it was nearly constantly asked. So I made a static page in the mushroom section on my website with that exact title. Then I had a couple of t-shirts printed up with my logo on the front and on the back was that question with a QR code thing that brought them exactly on that page. A gimmick? Yeah, for sure, but it got a lot of laughs and a lot of traffic on my site, and I even had a few folks that wanted to buy my shirts.
 As most members here know, knowledge is power and knowledge has value. Sharing that knowledge can improve other's lot in life. I freely offer that to my clients and many times they reciprocate with their business.

 Since I don't do much sawing for private clients, I have less sawing stuff on my site, most of what I saw these days is B2B and they know what they want. I don't have to explain what a BF is.

 These days doing a website is cheap if you do it yourself, although it is a time suck to get it started. Winter time is a great time to go down that rabbit hoe and get it up and running. You can put all your terms and explain the expectations you hold as well as leave explanations there for why you do things the way you do. Keep in mind your readers are looking at it form a 'what's in it for me?' point of view, so tell them the benefits of doing business with you the way your are suggesting. For instance: "Having your logs neatly prepped in one location will make the sawing easier and faster when I arrive and this will save you money and wasted time on that hourly rate."
 When you meet somebody, hand them your card, point out your web address, and tell them they can find a lot of detailed information there to help them get started. YMMV but I can tell you it has gleaned me a bunch of new clients and saved me a lot of talk time.

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on December 12, 2024, 08:12:59 AMI didn't see where you answered this question but I would like to add a Plus One on this comment, since the discussion deals almost as much with educating and grooming clients as it does with how you charge them. As has been said, nobody likes paying charges they don't understand.

Thanks OG, yes, I do have a site, put together by me... not fond of it, but it's a start.

www.newyankeesawmill.com

Every time one of the plug-ins updates, something moves... Grrrr.

I need to get an SEO campaign going, but last I looked into it was above my pay-grade. I priced some things out, and I would really like to just hire someone to re-design the whole thing and do the SEO for me (not happy w/ design either). Just don't have the cake right now (common thread...) Had to drive an hour yesterday to p/u a check so I can get my truck back from the service shop ($1300 for head gaskets). A good designer can do the site for about the same amount, its just not in the budget right now, I don't want to have to subsidize the business any more than I already am.
I realize it's another one of those chicken-egg things. Right now I've got Year-end Taxes and paperwork filling my plate, but I'm hoping to pass that off to my accountant. Thanks for the second and reminder however! Hopefully January will see work explode and money won't be a concern!