This is at my daughter's house. Anyone know what it is for? She thinks it has something to do with energy consumption, but it doesn't make any sense to me. It runs 24/7 and you can hear it on when on the other side of the wall.
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Why isn't it a hot water heater?
The do hicky on the side of the water heater.
Could it be a circulator that pumps hot water through the hot side of the pipes so you have instant hot water? You wouldn't need to run cold water out of the pipe to get the hot water.
Google "Grundfos hot water circulator"
OK, this is a shot in the dark but hear me out. (Then you can laugh.)
This is a valve with a timer that is coming off the bottom of the heater, also call 'the drain'. Depending on the type of water you have, these water heaters tend to collect sludge in the bottom over time which restricts water flow. It is a very simple thing to just drain the bottom junk off the heater from time to time. My parents house had/has this issue. I would just drain off the bottom 5 gallons and all was good for several weeks or months.
What you have here seems to be an automated drain that will go 'open' for a short period every few weeks or months and drain that junk off. I'll bet the other end of that pipe is either in a drain or to the outside. What is the timer set to? how often and for how long does it 'open'?
It's actually a good idea that should add to the lie of the water heater.
In the trade it would be known as a recirc pump to maintain the domestic hot water piping up to temp on installations with long runs to the furthest fixture. It's a nice feature having almost instant HW but these days with energy costs being what the are ...
Most systems include an aquastat downstream with a setpoint and range so it's not running 24/7, not familiar with the timer arrangement...
Yep, recirculation hot water loop.
I believe OGH nailed it, seeing that it is an electric hot water heater.
Where does the copper pipe go after it exits through the wall? Known or not? Suspect it goes to a drain, but pump shouldn't be running 24/7.
Probably a recirculating pump. The timer just needs to be set properly if it still works. You'd set it to run just before you get up in the morning to take your shower and maybe again to run before you do dishes so the hot water is there.
A guy I do odd jobs for had a BIG tankless installed to save on his propane usage. Then he had a recirculating pump installed that ran 24/7/365 🤔🙄
I don't see where the pipe is going because it's in the wall. Here is a 20 second video of it in action.
I'll do some more research after dinner.
https://youtube.com/shorts/g6-P2A8OJrM?si=WjEHybO4GtZnySHe
Not seeing where any of the timer tabs are set up for any off-time period. If it is pumping off hot water 24/7 then it is far from an energy saver. ffcheesy ffcheesy
The timer appears to be set to ON 7 am to 9 pm. The blue tabs pushed in are OFF and pushed out are ON.
Looks to me like reprogramming the timer to "at home and awake" time set to ON and "away or asleep" set to OFF is needed.
Is there a 7 day timer that could be used?
There is a timer OFF setting on that middle switch. That should turn the pump off completely
We thought about getting a hot water circulator. You can put it under the sink, and it lets hot water trickle and pump back though the cold-water side. pressures are equal so it just circulated. at some point if no water is used you would have "warmer cold water". we have an upstairs bathroom, and it can be a minute to get hot water for a shower or to shave etc. I just brush my teeth first and that gets us real close. the return water stays in the system and not down the drain. If they planned it when the house was built, it may be a dedicated return line. I would have just teed into the cold-water in. the pump keeps the water going in one direction. check under bathroom sink and see if there is an extra copper pipe on the hot water side in one of them.
Could feel the copper pipe going out to learn if it is hot water (likely is) and also feel the pipe coming into the cold water feed at the top of the water heater. That pipe going out the wall is going somewhere, and might be good to find out where to learn more about this "do-hicky" :snowball: ffwave :huh?
I checked the Grundfos website and they say quiet and efficient. That it is not. They also mention some are used to cool ac units. That unit (air handler) is in the attic, go figure. I'll do some more looking into all mentioned including setting the timer. My daughter said she messed with it one time and they had no hot water when needed so she left it on.
COMFORT SYSTEM | Grundfos (https://product-selection.grundfos.com/us/products/up-ups-series-100-north-america/grundfos-comfort-system-north-america?tab=models)
You wouldn't need a circulating pump if it was just a drain.
A circulating loop will come off the drain, and come back to the fresh water inlet iirc. I plumbed one, but never finished hooking it up. The hot water "trunk line" that feeds all hot water fixtures in the house was all insulated to minimize heat loss.
The trunk line was much different than the cold water plumbing I did (all of this was PEX) which used manifolds in the mechanical room with what was called "home runs" I think, which went from the manifold to every water fixture. So there is a seperate leg on the manifold for the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, toilet, etc.
Water heaters drain, not the sink drain. It could have a dedicated line or just go back thorough the cold side.
That IS a circulating system. I put one in my MIL's house and also first ran across them on a house in Austin Texas build in the late 1950's.
The Texas house did not require a pump - it used convective action to circulate the water. Worked great.
The copper pipe on the circulating unit is hot. The top right copper pipe on the tank top is warm while the left side pipe is hot/significantly hotter. My best guess right now is it is circulating back to the heater on the cold side intake? I'll mess with the timer tomorrow so SIL isn't taking a cold shower in the morning.
The pump should have no affect on HW delivery other than a delay if it's just for recirculation.
It should always be hot at the faucet if working correctly. Our sink takes a minute to heat up, upstairs away from the heater. we do not have but were told one could be installed. took a few minutes to understand the concept.
Quote from: Mooseherder on January 05, 2025, 07:15:10 PMThe copper pipe on the circulating unit is hot. The top right copper pipe on the tank top is warm while the left side pipe is hot/significantly hotter. My best guess right now is it is circulating back to the heater on the cold side intake? I'll mess with the timer tomorrow so SIL isn't taking a cold shower in the morning.
The return typically is plumbed into the tank drain at the bottom of the tank. So the way the pump is plumbed it is pushing water into the bottom (coldest portion) of the tank.
Basically these are set up as a return line from the farthest point of the house.
Not related to the question but I was surprised to see that a "water heater drain pan" was not installed and plumbed to a drain or outside. ??
Probably because it's in the garage and the floor is lower than the house floor. It's only 4 years old so it must not of been required by code.
Thanks, I was just noticing that fancy baseboard and wondering. ??
We've had these on our last two houses, has a duel pipe system through the house. First had a timer, would shut down at 11, back on at 6 in the morning. The current system has a thermostat, just turns on as the water in the system cools.
Expensive system, pretty much has to be installed on new construction. New system that is commonly done is a pump at the hot water heater and a valve at the farthest fitting from the heater. Circulates hot through the house and into a cold fitting at the end. These are done with timers.
Pump should show which way the water is being pumped. Running continuously indicates a pump timer problem, I'm thinking.
Thank you all for the comments. I've set the timer and will see how that works.
Here's a few pictures of what is under one of the sinks in the furthest bathroom.
This is the only fixture this way. All the other fixtures look standard to me.
I counted to 17 for the water to get hot at the furthest sink. Like a normal wait for a system that doesn't have this do hickey.
The closest bathroom was hot on the count of 4.
My daughter says the master bath water is not hot enough. Will adjusting this mixing valve knob fix the whole bathroom or just this one sink fixture?
I took the top screw off and tried turning it but it didn't want to budge from my hand strength, so I didn't want to cause a fiasco.
The other bathroom water is hot plenty.
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Yes that is a mixing valve, but I'm not clear on the plumbing. Are those lines the hot and cold for that sink fixture? In that case, it will only control the temp of that fixture.
There is likely a mixing valve for the shower/tub, too.
Yes, this is his sink on the one wall, hers is on the opposite wall. The tub is in-between.
I'll have to check if the access panel for the tub is easy to get at later. It didn't look like it when I was in there earlier.
Seems like a wasted concept to me so far.
the only application for that I think would be to decrease the hot water temp, like in a child's bathroom. we have a larger one for the floor heat to decrease the boiler water temp. so the floor is warm, but not hot. Not sure where the bottom pipe goes.
The tub panel isn't accessible unless trim is taken off and she mentioned it isn't that cold.
I'm glad about that. ffcheesy
I'd like to see the loop diagram for the system. Without a loop it just doesn't add up for me.
I'm still not understanding the real benefit because what I'm seeing is it dead ends.
I would say that the circulator pump is to provide hot faster to a distant fixture, the pump side should be the return from a hot line somewhere down the line (preferably at the end).
It would be easy to add the correct Surface Mount Hydronic Temperature Control to the return pipe there and run the electrical to the sensor first then to the pump so the pump would cycle on and off instead of all the time when the timer is on. A hydronic/mechanical switch would require no other electrical input to run and should last for decades.
The mixing valve is plumbed to provide tempered water somewhere else not to the sink there. It could be to a tub/shower or it to a toilet. Some houses are done this way (warm/hot to the toilet) to provide either a warm toilet in cold climates "LUXURY" or to reduce condensation in warm/humid climate.
To adjust the mixing valve you need to loosen the screw enough to lift the knob a bit to clear the bottom splined part and turn only the top brass splined part.
maybe the bottom pipe is the infeed for the tub and shower. they also make aerators that shutdown if too hot. I would get instruction on that model and set it to the hottest and see if the tub gets hotter. on the hot side of course.
I agree with hilltop. we must have been posting at the same time.
did you say the house if 4 years old? if so, I wonder if the papers included the original contractors, and they could help explain how this all works.
I will add that mixing valves sometimes stick from mineral buildup, if the water is hard there it is recommended to periodically turn the adjuster oneway and then return it back to its setting. Easier to do if you put a mark on the adjuster knob so you can return it to its set position.
I have one in a building that the issue is the check valve wears out after a few years, the apartment closest to the valve would notice it first because it would mix cold back in the tempered, the apartment 120' away never knew anything was wrong as they had a 120' of 1" line full of hot water to cool off first. Took me a bit to figure that one out.
She must have the stack of build sheets, I'll check with her. That should answer the tub question at a minimum. It would make sense to put the valve under the sink instead of a fixed panel but the copper pipe leads to the sink faucet. It must control the tub next to it also. We are building next door and I saw our stack of build sheets today but didn't review them yet. Hopefully ours will be different. Our old house never had this and was never an issue. We have a different builder, so probably will be. If we don't get it sorted out by then the plumber can have a look see.
Quote from: Mooseherder on January 06, 2025, 01:29:31 PMThank you all for the comments. I've set the timer and will see how that works.
Here's a few pictures of what is under one of the sinks in the furthest bathroom.
This is the only fixture this way. All the other fixtures look standard to me.
I counted to 17 for the water to get hot at the furthest sink. Like a normal wait for a system that doesn't have this do hickey.
The closest bathroom was hot on the count of 4.
My daughter says the master bath water is not hot enough. Will adjusting this mixing valve knob fix the whole bathroom or just this one sink fixture?
I took the top screw off and tried turning it but it didn't want to budge from my hand strength, so I didn't want to cause a fiasco.
The other bathroom water is hot plenty.
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Do you know what that valve feeds? I've seen those used for a bidet but never a shower.
This is under one of the master bathroom sinks but no bidet.
Hey
@scsmith42 How do you like those bidets? ffsmiley ffsmiley ffsmiley
Quote from: doc henderson on January 07, 2025, 09:21:47 AMHey @scsmith42 How do you like those bidets? ffsmiley ffsmiley ffsmiley
Love 'em, Doc!
So we went a couple days with the timer kicking off at 8pm to 5am no problems. Then I added 10am to 2pm timer off to see if we could get more time off but that only lasted a day because there wasn't hot water when someone needed it. There went that idea. Then I adjusted more time on from 10pm to 4am off instead of the 8pm to 5am. off because I can think of scenarios where it might be needed. If it isn't on there is no hot water. It's a BS system imo.
Can these systems be bypassed?