The Forestry Forum

I've got a brown recluse problem in my barn, I try to keep it as clean as possible but it is a barn and so is open, dusty, I do a lot of work in it, and it has lots of brown recluse spiders.  "Lots" as in I found three in the bottom of one of my cardboard sawblade boxes this afternoon, cold, but still kicking.  My pro pest guy is scared to go in (not really, but kind of) and yes, the majority of spiders in the barn are positively identified as brown recluse, which are very common in N Alabama, along with black widows and scorpions.  I pay him to spray the barn and about the only thing that survives are the recluse spiders, because he says they don't wash themselves so are pretty immune to most modern pesticides, which is also what I have read on the Dr. Google.

So does anyone have any particularly effective ways to get rid of these guys without actually burning the building down, which isn't an option.

They are pretty "reclusive" and not aggressive, but that doesn't matter much when I see them doing calisthenics in my welding helmet.  I've tried the perppermint thing, tried fumigating but the barn is too open, even the DeltaDust doesn't seem to work, for example, the blade box had Delta Dust on top of it but the spiders were in the bottom.  I've got glue traps down but sawdust and glue traps don't work well.  

Any ideas?   

     

Import wolf spiders.  Put sticky cards in infested areas.

Sevin, there is a bag put out by sevin for bugs on a lawn.
What about borates.
Good luck.

I wonder what is so different from your place than mine? Must be that I don't clean it as much. Let it get messy and they might move out. ffcheesy
I keep my eye out for them but don't see very many.

Like anything else food and the environment, take one or both away and they're gone.

I take back my earlier complaints about the cold snap we are in up north, at least we don't have your critters!

I'd move!

What are they eating is a good question, if they can't be successful foraging then the population will decrease. I wouldn't think a blade box would be a great hunting area unless the can get in and out easily. Not a spider expert by any means. 

Spiders and scorpions are just normal here in North Alabama.  They are literally everywhere outside, the problem is when they want to come inside.  Houses and most closed buildings can be kept clear, but open barns and work buildings are difficult.  These are open buildings, there are always bugs in them, from wasps, mud daubers, stinkbugs, fire ants, other spiders, flies, bees, scorpions, carpenter bees, even low flying birds. 

Brown Recluse are one of the few spiders that like to eat dead insects, so even if a "normal" bug gets killed by the insecticide once it comes in the building, the spiders have a ready made feast and will eat everything but the legs.  If that spider dies, then others will eat it and leave it's legs behind.  It's pretty cool to see the remains, a bunch of legs in a circle, with no body.  Kind of like seeing a plate of crab legs at the Red Lobster.   

Unfortunately, brown recluse spiders are especially attracted to cardboard and paper because the paper material mimics the rotting tree bark where they naturally hide in the woods. They often build their nests and rest in cardboard boxes, any paper, furniture, and other undisturbed areas. So if there are any openings in the taped edges of a shipping box, they will get in and have a spider condo.  Imagine how much stuff a business likes our gets by FedEx and UPS every day, and when we put that cardboard box down, it becomes a spider magnet.  So I go around with packing tape and seal any cardboard boxes up as best I can, like the ones holding spare parts and stuff I don't need immediately, using roll after roll of tape.  Last year we invested lots of money ($thousands) in big sealable plastic containers and that certainly keeps them out of my stuff, but doesn't clear them from the building.  However, if I stack cardboard boxes on top of each other, neatly, then I make another spider condo.           

I always use these really cold winter days for a little excitement to go on spider patrol because they aren't moving very fast.  I guess it's a lot like a rattlesnake roundup in Texas.  Then when I find a wad of spiders, I spray them with contact killer, or like yesterday, I put all the cardboard boxes in a pile and watch them scream as they burn. 

Just good old Southern fun. 

My "Redneck Shop Vac" for clean up is a 4" flex hose connected to my big dust collector to suck em up.   I have a pest guy come in and do a perimeter spray of our house and outbuildings, so he is using commercial grade chemicals which I guess work, I can't tell.  He's puts out about 20 glue traps that we occasionally change out, but just the normal sawdust being blown around the work buildings just sticks to the glue and they are pretty useless unless they are in the cabinets.  I may try to find some "dustproof" glue traps?

I'd been thinking maybe some kind of powder, like diatomaceous earth, but reading further, it seems it can cause lung cancer if disturbed and inhaled.  I hadn't thought about Boracare, I have a five gallon bucket of the powder, I might try and just spread that out on the floors.

Whatever I put down, I need to not be harmed by it being blown around since we work in these buildings

Last year I put boxes of mothballs in some of my tool cabinets as an experiment, and that seems to help keep them mostly spider free.  I may need to get a 55 galln drum of them and spread them everywhere.

Not sure what else to try?

I use a product called Demon. Works really well. Does not kill bugs immediately but when they crawl thru a treated area they shrivel up. It comes in a small pouch that mixes easily with water and is not terribly expensive. No smell, only very slight residue on non-porous surfaces. Treatments supposed to last 3-4 months. Keep it mixed in a 1 gallon sprayer and you can do spot treatments anytime you see a bug. It does not require a license and I understand professional bug people use it also. I spray when I leave to go out for a few days and always find dead bugs when I return.

Robert,

   If they like to eat dead bugs do they ingest and die from the poison in bugs killed by pesticide? If so looks to me like you could attract a bunch of bugs to some rotting meat (or a UA poster) and poison them then feed them to the fiddlebacks and hopefully they will get enough second hand pesticide to do them in.

Quote from: TroyC on January 07, 2025, 09:38:03 AMI use a product called Demon. Works really well. Does not kill bugs immediately but when they crawl thru a treated area they shrivel up. It comes in a small pouch that mixes easily with water and is not terribly expensive. No smell, only very slight residue on non-porous surfaces. Treatments supposed to last 3-4 months. Keep it mixed in a 1 gallon sprayer and you can do spot treatments anytime you see a bug. It does not require a license and I understand professional bug people use it also. I spray when I leave to go out for a few days and always find dead bugs when I return.

I use this or Cynoff on my rentals. Pretty effective. Watched a palmetto bug walk over my spray line then flop over on his back within 6 inches.

Talstar is my lawn/outside spray. Has the Cynoff been discontinued? Quick search showed it to be a Demon knoff-off, just wondering if it might be cheaper. Cynoff appears to be liquid, Demon is powder similiar to Boracare.

The Demon and Cynoff I use are both liquid concentrate I get at the local feed store.

I will try some Demon/Cynoff.  I'm glad they are not restricted, I used to have a pesticide license but have long since let it lapse.  I'll just take my 3,500 psi pressure washer and load a few gallons in and spray the entire building?   ffcheesy

I'm not sure if they die when they eat other dead bugs, but it's pretty cool how they will go right up the edges of the glue traps and eat the parts of the bugs, like the back half of a cricket, that is hanging off and not on the sticky part.

Of course, I guess that could be other bugs doing that too.  

I've still got more cleaning to do in the next few days, I'll see if I can catch a few for photos.  Or I may just stomp on them, it depends how I feel at the time.   


 

I've used Cyzmic CS a generic of Demand CS.  Both are residual pesticides.  Probably not much different than the others that are mentioned.  Can be used inside or outside. 

Just offering couple more options depending upon what is available.   

A key to effectiveness is sticking to a frequent interval as allowed by the directions.  After a few months, I've been able to extend the interval and maintain effectiveness.  

We had black widows galore.   Cyzmic CS worked.  

So, this afternoon, while it was 27F, I went on another bug hunt, and I thought you guys might like some pictures.  I went through a few blade boxes, only three of them, and I lost count of the live and dead half eaten carcasses I found.  

Some pretty cool stuff, so here is one that was pretty cold but still a little upset, he kind of bowed up on me, and I took a close up before I "exterminated" him.  Notice the trademark fiddle on his back?       

Here is one that got his rear end eaten off by another, but with the characteristic long spread out legs.  Here are three in this photo, on the box, can you see them?  When they get cold they kind of curl up, but it's only temporary.

Here's what fell out of the bottom of one of the boxes, onto the stairway as I was carrying them outside.  One of the litter beggars landed on the stairs.  Notice the fiddle again?  I squashed him with a love tap.   These things have a very characteristic profile and once you see em you never forget what they look like.  So yeah, I have a brown recluse problem in my barn. 

I think I'd wear gloves... I don't mind bugs but the pictures of body parts that have been bitten by brown recluse have worked on me.

Move north.   :wink_2:
Zero degrees here now.

 Problem solved for 6 months or so. 


Would vegetation free apron of concrete around the buildings make any difference?
They use an apron of crushed rock around hog confinement buildings to reduce the mouse issues.  (Not cure it helps).
The rodents supposedly don't like to expose themselves to the open areas. 

A concrete apron?  That's interesting, I haven't heard that but it makes sense.

Quote from: aigheadish on January 08, 2025, 06:54:02 AMI think I'd wear gloves... I don't mind bugs but the pictures of body parts that have been bitten by brown recluse have worked on me.

Oh yeah, gloves are a necessity.  Oddly enough, according to my Dr, who has treated me for a couple nasty spider bites, probably not brown recluse, but spider nonetheless, the venom is bad, but not the only thing to worry about.  He says in his experience, the worst thing is that Brown Recluse, and most spiders, are Staff carriers, and when they bite, they inject a person with Staff and then that gets pretty bad.  I've had two that were bad enough that the Dr. said as he pumped me with antibiotics, "If it keeps getting worse, go to the hospital." So pretty much a bite from any spider is bad.

I was wearing some of the rubber surgical gloves moving stuff around the last time my bug guy was here spraying, and he told me they were worthless, the spiders fangs go right through them, he knew from personal experience.  So he and I both wear the much heavier rubber mechanics rubber gloves.  

So I've put up with this for many years and now I guess I'm about to go a little YellowHammer Overboard on them.  Total War!!!

I'm going to order some Demon or equivalent, I'm banning all cardboard from any of my buildings, I'll put boxes of mothballs in every cabinet and I guess every drawer, and I don't know what else.  I picked up a professional glue trap yesterday that I had placed right next to those blade boxes, and between the cold and the dust, it had zero sticky left.  The delta dust was ineffective, the pictures of the boxes with spiders in them were covered with delta dust. 


    

I had another thought a bit ago. They make the salt guns for shooting flies, you could trick one out with a custom barrel and target scope and set up a hunting blind in the barn and whack spiders off from 20 or 30 feet.    ffcheesy
Sorry couldn't help it.  

Although I could have fun with a spider rifle. 

Never see a spider in our mill.  Would ERC sawdust have any repulsive effect?  Put some in couple of boxes and some without and see if they will make a home in the ERC.  Just a crazy thought.  A lot of insects do not like ERC.  Will not kill them, they just go someplace else.  Since a lot of bugs don't like cedar there is no food for spiders.  Carpenter ants and carpenter bees some exceptions.

I feel I could invite you to go Yellow Hammer Overboard with the stinkbugs at my place... One sitting on the dining room table yesterday, just hanging out like it was one of my kids. I hate 'em (the stink bugs) but they are much less likely to give me a disease or rot a leg off. 

Cedarman- that's an interesting idea! 

Yesterday in my work shop I noticed a dead spider in a drain pan with a thin film of engine oil in it. There it sawdust in it too so it got me to thinking that maybe you could experiment and make a cardboard trap/box with a shallow dish of oil in it? Maybe use veggie oil incase a pet finds it too.

Patent pending. ffsmiley

I wonder about the cedar, or cedar oil, I will check it out.  Maybe an oil trap would work.

Nebraska, I like it!  I'm going to look for a spider rifle, that way I can write it off as a business expense.  Maybe a .0000000030 caliber would make it sporting!   

Here is a photo of a bite I got between my toes a few years ago, it wasn't an oozing wound like you hear about, but the skin and some of the meat right at the bite flaked off later, but no big deal once I got on antibiotics at the Dr.  Office. The black is where the doctor draws an outline and it allows him to see how fast it is progressing.

We get those stinkbugs also, by the bazillion!  Nasty critters.       

 

The problem with hunting the Brown recluse is that they are a recluse.  I have seen the pictures, and I see hundreds of these bites each year, and none that I know of went to skin grafting from sloughing of skin (full thickness).  So, the dramatic skin lesions are rare.  Many people come in 15 minutes after a bite, and there is nothing to do.  You use steroids if there are systemic symptoms (fever chills nausea vomiting) and antibiotics if it gets infected (days later).  Usually, a darker red center surrounded by a lighter red/pink area.  They usually hide in old boots and clothing, like out in a barn, as they want little to do with people.  The bit is painless, so you do not even know you are bit.  A black widow is painful at the time of the bite.  I had a 4-year-old patient, and on presentation, the parents had the dead smashed spider, and the child looked sick.  she picked up a tool off the deck and yelled ouch dropping the tool and the grandpa smashed the spider as it tried to run away.  She had to be transferred to the Children's hospital At Wesley in Wichita to the PICU.  She has fever chills, nausea, vomiting, and confusion.

We have some WHOPPER black widows here, but I have never been bit.  They look like they would really put the hurt on a person!
I had a bite on my forehead once, right at my hatband, and you could see the two little itty bitty fang punctures with a magnifier!  That one spread Fast!  I saw the little red spot in the morning and by midafternoon, it had a red spot the size of a quarter and I was at my Dr. office getting an antibiotic shot!  I don't have photo of that one, but that one worried me!  No big deal once treated, it healed up.

Did I mention I am now at war with the spiders!!     

the initial redness and spread is the toxin, not infection.  may have been fine without the antibiotic.  but now we will never know.  No harm in covering it.  It aint Rocket Surgery or brain science.   :uhoh: :wacky: :wink_2: ffcheesy

My gosh Robert, once I got past how ugly that bite is, then I noticed them toes- those are banana peelers right thar!😂

We are pretty light on nasty venomous things up here, part of the trade off of some of those -40° nights🥶😊 

I think I would be giving that cedar guys idea a heck of a try.

What do you mean?  I made millions on being a "toe model" on TikTok!  As they say in Alabama, if your toes are straighter than your teeth, then you are a "Looker."

Just got back from the feed store.
Told them of your recluse spider issue.
They said Demon double strength worked for them.

RaiderBill and others, I appreciate the advice, I listen to it, and just ordered a jug of Demon Max, it should be here Monday.

I'm also still looking at all of the other options, too, but the Demon or generic Demon stuff seems to have strong following here in the replies, so it's on its way.

I'm also looking at the other stuff too, including a rifle chambered in 2mm Kolibri, from Austria.  They say it's deadly on Wolf or Tiger spiders, so should be able to handle a recluse if I hit him between all of his 6 eyes.

Believe it or not, I opened my kiln this morning, 15F outside, and a brown recluse was having a spa day right in the weather stripping!  He just stared at me like he owned the place.  He as wrong.  I guess he had found a comfortable spot to balance between freezing cold outside and the hot air in the kiln.  THAT really PO'd me, it's like I can't get away from them.  Let's just say, he's dead now.....      

They will not bother you if they can help it.  they tend to find a quiet spot like the sleave of an old, insulated flannel shirt.  all is well till you stick your arm into their home.  I am curious how many new baby spiders are hatched at a time.  so best you got rid of the breading stock.

Plus they carry staff and I have an artificial hip. 

I hate these things, and right now, while the weather is cold and they are sluggish, they are gonna be "Hammered." 

I have moved so much stuff out of the barn and outbuildings in the last few days, to the burn pit, that when I light it, they will see it from the Space Station.   

My not so noticeable OCD personality is now firmly focused on them.  It's going to be either me or them!!!  Thar she blows! Where did I put my harpoon?  It's about to get real!  About like when I found this yellerjacket nest. 

Sounds like the "Yellowhammer of Doom" is about to fall!

Just keep in mind not to let the interval between treatments to go too long!  

BOOM!  

This topic give me the willies!  I've seen a total of 1 Brown Recluce since I've been in IN. and that one I'm pretty sure hitched a ride on some barnwood I brought into the shop.  It was fast running across the floor.  When It stopped, we got a picture, and it took off again.  This time I was faster and squished it.  Haven't seen one since.  Shivvveeerrr!!!

Dang right they are fast!  They are hunter killers, not web spiders.  When the summer comes around, these dormant balls of spider ice I'm causally dealing with turn into track stars.  

We all respond to stress differently.  I on the other hand ordered a bag ot 500 palstic spiders of 5 different sized.  

We humans all carry staff as well, so they are prob. saying the same about you in spidy language.  "Don't let It touch you".  I am sure they would step on us if they could.

I certainly respond to poisonous spider infestation stress by killing them.  

Also my bug company responds the same way.  I called and let them know of my worse than expected spider problem, offered to send some pictures, and they were not happy at all, as this looks bad for them since this is one of the buildings they are under paid contract to keep clear.  Apparently, they hate spiders more than I do, being professional exterminators, so they are going send our guy back out, for a spider treatment, not sure what that is.  So now the Pros are getting more involved.     

I don't think spiders can talk, but if they can, they better be telling each other to pack their bands and leave.  

So are they in where you sell the wood to customers and in your home?

I don't know what kind of spider it was (probably not a recluse here in Michigan) but my neighbor was over and stepped on it and a thousand baby spiders took off when it was squished.  FREAKY...he was stomping them like he was doing a two step...

We have 4 buildings under exterminator contract, and it isn't cheap.  Our "complex" is in the middle of nowhere, and the entire biomass of bugs and critters and birds from all the neighboring hundreds of acres of woods and fields are always pushing to come inside where its warm and comfortable. 

Oddly enough, each building has its own problems, based on how it is used:

The house is pretty much spider free, but field mice are a problem.  We are on a crawlspace and the bug guy, besides spraying, fumigates the crawlspace and that pretty much kills any spiders we have under there or staging to get into the house.  They put out lots of mice bait stations and we have three cats so the house is pretty clear.   

The building where we sell the wood, our showroom, is a real priority, and we keep it "eat off the floor" clean, because it's good business to have a clean showroom, and because our insurance company has warned us of customers getting bit or stung and suing us if we didn't have it under professional contract and kept clean.  For some reason, despite the exterminators, mice and scorpions are the major problem in here.  Martha got a nasty scorpion sting last year in our showroom, it messed her up for a couple days, put her on the couch, and the exterminators came out and did a specific "Scorpion Treatment" and sure enough, we found quite a few dead scorpions on the floor where their pesticide was driving them out of the wood stacks and killing them.  A few live ones too.  Customers do NOT like seeing live scorpions in wood they are buying.  However, right now they seem to be under control.  We also have a bird problem because of the high inside roof, and the birds love to build nests in the upper wall corners or on top of the lights, which have to be cleared out so they don't poop on our customers.  Black widows and fire ants are the main problem on the outside of this building, the last time the bug guy sprayed it, I walked with him and he found 4 different widow nests where the metal siding meets the ground.

The two story shop and barn is the one we always have the most trouble with, which I don't understand because there is no food there and we use it every day.  Spiders and mice are real bad.  I can't tell you how many times I've turned on a tool only to have mice pieces and blood fly out, despite lots of bait, and lots of traps.  This is an old barn that has been fixed up, but still has lots of crooks and crannies.  We store lots of our business supplies in the second story, so has lots of cardboard boxes stacked against the wall.  It's organized, but is a spider haven.  Oddly enough, there are no black widows in this building, maybe the brown recluse kill them?  However, this year, the brown recluse problem has been worse than I've ever seen, despite the efforts and money to make it better.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe as we install sealed plastic storage bins and metal shelving, and are removing their habitat, they are concentrating their population on the stuff that is left.  So the cleaner I get it, the more I see them?   

Our bug company is pretty good and pretty reactive due to the size of our contract, but they have told me more than once how hard it is to get rid of a brown recluse infestation, and I always kind of just rolled with it.  Not this time.  My phone call to them yesterday pretty much got them stirred up so now the calvary is coming as well as me full tilt.  The current situation is not acceptable. 

Oh, by the way, when customers see the occasional mouse running across the floor, they laugh and I get embarrassed.  When they see a scorpion scurrying across the floor, they do NOT laugh.             

Quote from: doc henderson on January 10, 2025, 02:08:50 AMI on the other hand ordered a bag ot 500 palstic spiders of 5 different sized.  

Getting ready for the next ProJect Doc? I can almost see Yellowhammer dancing around trying to squish them. Maybe stick a couple on Jake's Woodmizer during the next quartersawing demo. ffcheesy

Anyway, save a couple for the big luncheon...... :wink_2:

Quote Maybe as we install sealed plastic storage bins and metal shelving, and are removing their habitat, they are concentrating their population on the stuff that is left.

That was a thought I had too when hearing about the "cardboard" being related to the recluse spider problem. Sounds a bit expensive and more work, but should help the problem.  Maybe at some point in time, you can leave a cardboard box as a decoy to attract the remaining spiders, and have a "burning" good time with it.

Have you tried a sprayer with apple cider vinegar.  I understand that kills many types of spiders if it contacts them 100% organically. 

Especially 30% vinegar!   But the residual effect is short with vinegar.   

Wolf spiders and the various large but harmless garden spyders I've never had an issue with (unless they are crawling on me, especially my head or neck).

I haven't tried vinegar, but have tried peppermint oil and that didn't do much.  I'm hoping the Demon does good, I'll have a pump up sprayer ready to go, and keep the floors wet with it, as soon as it comes in.  

I like the idea of a cardboard bait trap, kind of like a spider crab trap, I could put it over a glue board and maybe keep the dust off and the sticky working.  I wonder if they sell those.  

I don't worry about the outdoor spiders either.  We get some of the big wolfs and especially lawn spiders but I don't worry much about them, other than to stomp them flat if I see them inside the house.  They always seem to be late for something, always walking with a purpose, and I figure I'll let them do their thing.  I've never had a problem with them.

I once was telling my Dad how many black widows we had on the farm, and he didn't believe me.  Here in North Alabama, they are extremely common, every single below ground water shutoff box has one in it, as well as any unused hole in the ground or piece of pipe on the ground, or most times, under the bottom of any mailbox, or even sometimes lawn furniture.  However, they are huge and very easy to spot and their webs are even easier to recognize.  The Delta Dust is their kryptonite and just a slight dusting on their web and they are dead by the next day.  Every child in these parts learns spider web identification and how to recognize widow nests as soon as possible.  

The problem with recluse spider is that don't have a web to give them away or for them to retreat to so I can't anticipate them and Delta Dust does not work on them. Most times, especially during the summer when they are real active, you have no idea they are there, just randomly lift something up or open a tool box drawer, and there they are, bowed up and ready.  Rarely do they retreat in a predictable fashion.  

   

 

I know you have to do what you have to do. For me working in all that poison all day and every day I don't think I could do that.
Up here in NH we have none of that. Some ticks and a few mosquitoes. Some mice, some spiders none poisonous I hardly ever see.
I wish you luck. 

YH, sure wish you would experiment with some cedar sawdust.  If it would work, might be a good marketing angle for cedar sawdust.

Sounds good, I'll do it, I have some cedar to mill up, just haven't gotten to them.  Now I have a reason to move them up in the queue.

I agree, I really don't like pesticides, that's why I let my restricted license lapse many years ago.  So then we hired a pro and let them handle things, and they do OK for the most part, but I'm tired of hearing how hard Recluse spiders are to control, and the situation not getting better. 

It's obvious the current strategy isn't working.  Scorpions (Martha's been stung), brown recluse (my several bites), black widows (never been hit but they are everywhere), fire ants (invasive, real bad), bird poop (histoplasmosis), mice (all the time in my tools), Norway rats (one got in my boat a couple months ago and did some major damage), armadillos destroying the yard (they invaded about a decade ago with the fore ants, are leprosy carriers, and if you think I'm over the top, my neighbor keeps his shotgun by the front door and shoots every armadillo's destroying his manicured yard.  He got an all time high of 19 in one month), the odd snake (did you see the video of Martha getting bitten by the blacksnake?) and the other normal stuff not worth mentioning (except all the wasps, and my Uncle died from a wasp sting, on the way to the hospital). 

So I'm going to try a little bit of everything.  These critters have nearly 1,000 acres of nearby land (not all mine) to live in peace, they don't need to be my shop or my house. 

Like I say,
you leave me alone, I will leave you alone.
Same thing you are saying with the 1000 acres.

Of course the obligatory Forestry Forum mill yard chickens could be as effective as anything. 

There were some studies that ERC sawdust repelled argentine ants.  I think those are the little bitty ones.
While your at it YH, see if ERC dust will repel fire ants.  We don't have them up here.  

the carpenter ones (I think) sure like to eat the center out of some bigger ERC.

But carpenter ants don't eat solid wood, only rotted wood. So the rot comes first, the ants follow along second.

The carpenter ants, if found in a house, are great predictors of a problem as they are indicators of having rotted wood somewhere. Often, from what I have found, the first inkling that there is a water leak or unvented spaces that are damp.

I just reread this whole thread and I've come to the conclusion that I'm totally fine with NH winters, mud season, and mosquitos, just keep the crawly stuff below the Mason Dixon line.  I don't know how you guys deal with them critters!

 I have tomorrow off and might swing by the gun. store. They were trying to sell me a flame thrower last time I was there.  I had no interest, but I think it'd be a good investment in case you spider friends take a northern road trip

Do you guys really not have these critters up North?

I tried the chicken thing years ago, year after year, we would get 30 or 40, and they ate every bug that moved, but unfortunately, our large predator population is about as thick as the bugs are, and much more aggressive.  I started feeling guilty because when we put the flock out in the yard for daylight patrol, (chicken house at night) it was a death sentence.  None survived the front yard, nothing, even in the daylight.  We would lose one or two a week, and by the end of summer, not more chickens.  We even bought a whole flock of guinea fowl one year, they were supposed to be more predator proof, because they would roost at night in trees, but the owls LOVED that.  Nope, the flock got whacked day and night.  I did think about getting some Emu's, still considering it, but Martha isn't real excited about that idea.

If anybody knows of some kind of predator proof chicken like birds, Spring is just around the corner, I'll buy a flock and let them loose.       

   

After reading about the Alabama issues I feel alot better about my one primary issue which is horrific mosquitos.  And I live in town now. I cannot be outside during the summer for more than 30 seconds without being coated with Deet or Picardin.  If is miss a few square inches they find it and come in for the feast. We have tiger mosquitos which are active all day and feed more aggressively.  Much worse here in town than when we lived on the lake and in the woods about 20 miles away.  As bad as northern Wi or Minnesota.

That being said I hate snakes and only periodically see garter snakes here, no scorpions, armadilos etc.  We did see a black widow once or twice in the 15 years we lived on the lake.  In Shawnee NF in sourthern illinois there is a place called "Snake Road"  They close it during the spring migration from the bluffs on one side to the swamp/water n the other side.  I see alot of people hiking the road during that time and their videos freak me out.

I could not imagine dealing with all of YH animals on a daily basis.  Makes me want to reconsider a spring trip down to Guntersville for fishing. 

That makes sense, but spoils the idea that cedar wood might repel, I think.

YH
Not that anybody talks about, so if they are here, not an apparent problem. 

I have pretty much everything that Robert has, but I don't think I have the Brown Recluse that he does. Even get the occasional opossum up on the porch eating the cat food. I've heard the opossum will eat a lot of ticks and other insects. Don't know if they like spiders.
I'm thinking the large barn is an attractant for the spiders in Robert's case. I don't have that many spiders under my saw shed and he don't seem to have them in his open store as much.

No, YH no bugs to talk about. The air is nice and clean, water where one can see 30' down in the lake.
Not too cold or hot.  A little snow is ok with me.
A place where you don't have to have a camera on every tree. Unless you are hunting. ffcheesy
I think we have 1.2 million people in the state, and more are in the southern half.
The bottom half voted blue while the top half was red. I'm in the red half. ffcheesy  Thats why the state went blue, more people from away in the south. ffcheesy
Life is good.
I wish you the best of luck.

If you have these critters, you would know it.   

A funny story, my old Dr who moved in from out of state once asked me why every workshop or garage has an old refrigerator or freezer in it, is it a Southern Thing?  Do we really drink that much beer?  I laughed and said no, the refrigerators and old freezers are the only places the spiders, scorpions and mice can't get into, so you put your "important" stuff in there where you just can't tolerate bugs or bug bites, like welding helmets, safety glasses, new gloves still in the package, hats, work shirts, papers, all that kind of stuff.  I could see the light bulb go off in his head and he exclaimed "Oh, so THAT'S how you do that!, I was wondering because these **##!! spiders are EVERYWHERE!"

Oh, and beer.

No YH, we really don't have that stuff up here. Actually, I think we are in the natural range of brown recluse spiders, but I've never seen one. Venomous stuff is pretty rare up here. But then, it was -20° when I got up this morning🥶Tradeoffs🤷😊 

The only snake I see around here are garter snakes. The southeast part of the state has timber rattlers I guess, but that's a different world down there. 

Hornets, wasps, and bees and the cold are about the most dangerous things we have. 

I think the Emus are a great idea. An emu following you around the woodyard would make for some great content on your YouTube channel😁

Might even see Chip get a little animated!   fly_smiley running-doggy smiley_beertoast spidey-smiley ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy

We have a little of all of the aggravating insects, spiders, snakes (rattlers and copperheads) and nuisance animals but no scorpions or armadillos. 

Brown Recluse aren't abundant but are here.  Black widow are prodigious if not controlled. 

Lately bald-faced hornets are my nemesis.  I had one of the largest nests I've ever seen in a tree in my front yard.  Didn't know it was there until the leaves came off the tree.  I usually have at least one as big as a basketball within 100 yards of the house.  Sometimes under the eaves of the house or under a shed. 

Hornets? Wow, that could have been bad!  I think I've only seen a handful of big hornet nests here in over 20 years.  We have lots of yellow jackets which I guess are hornets but none of the big ones.  

Yellow jackets and black ground wasps, paper wasps and a thing called a velvet ant.  It's a red furry looking thing that's not an ant at all but a wasp.   Stings like one too!  Let's say I learned this while mowing my lawn without a shirt on!   :veryangry:  They aren't plentiful but aren't hard to find.  

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 13, 2025, 06:40:26 PMand a thing called a velvet ant.  It's a red furry looking thing that's not an ant at all but a wasp

I have heard them called "cow killer ants".  Cow Killer Ant (https://www.pestworld.org/pest-guide/stinging-insects/velvet-ants-cow-killers/)

We have them too, we call them "Killer Ants."  They fight the scorpions.   :thumbsup:

One day a few years ago, we had a scorpion come out from under a board a customer and I were moving, and as it dropped on the floor and scurried away, I stomped it flat.  The customer looked at me with near panic about to set in, and asked if it was a scorpion because scorpions only live in the desert, and it couldn't be a scorpion, could it???  So I just deadpanned, nope, you are correct, we don't have them here and kicked what was left out into the lawn. ffcheesy ffcheesy

Well, not that it's the same but I'm officially ready to go Yellow Hammer Overboard with the bird(s) in my shop after I sat down out there, this morning, and had one poop right on me. Not sure why I went to wipe at my belly but my hand pulled away wet and sh****. It's cold out now and kind of inaccessible in this weather but I need to find a way to seal my doors up better and get that bubble liner up in my ceiling. I've considered a pellet gun, but I assume they've told their friends and shooting one would only be useful until the next moved in. Not sure how many there are living in my insulation but there is certainly one right above my seat. 

Oh, that would really get me going, first thing in the morning, getting pooped on.
Any idea what they are?  What kind of ceiling is it?

Well, after the bug guy came, I guess he really PO'd the spiders after he sprayed because I walked into my hunting room in the house this morning, flicked on the lights, and Harry was watching me.

I was not happy and he did not survive the friendly Yellowhammer style "Hello there..."

And so another call back to the bug company with another picture of a brown recluse and they are sending out "a new, new guy."

Meanwhile, I ordered 30 packs of 3 spider glue traps, so 90 traps in all.  Plus the Demon showed up.  

It was all fun and games until they start staring me down in my own house...They don't realize I was only on Yellowhammer Level 6, now I'm on a solid level 8.5.   ffcheesy ffcheesy

I assume that is on a scale of 100. ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy

No, 1 to10, but logarithmic. 

To quote one of the kids book author in Elf!  "it's expediential"

When we have a drama king or queen, and they rate their pain a 20/10, and state "I have a high pain tolerance".  We do the math and tell them that is a 2.

I think they are Sparrows. The bird problem is my fault due to the construction of the doors. They are 2 sets of bi-folds that need some space to open properly but I need to climb up on a ladder, in a now precarious spot, to get a good look at how I can permanently seal up the area through which they get in. I'm sure I could temporarily do something, but I don't want to get up on that ladder a bunch of times. The ceiling is just insulated framing right now, so it's a great spot for them to live, I can't blame them, but it's still maddening. I have some of that bubble insulation vapor barrier junk I can cover the insulation with but there are a lot of interruptions and cuts I'll need to make around the roof trusses, and I imagine the birds will find their way into that as well. I'm not a huge fan of working in the ceiling above the shop but I'm totally unwilling to put a false ceiling in there and close up the high peak. I may be able to run another 2x4 in front of the door track to cover more of that open space. I need to get up there and add some flashing above the doors anyway. Seems like the weather is not agreeable for that kind of work.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/openshop.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=305382)

You can see how the roof is, kind of, in this picture, but imagine insulation in there.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/lathe~0.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=302240)

Quote from: doc henderson on January 16, 2025, 12:26:05 AMI assume that is on a scale of 100. ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy

no, but he is on like the Richter scale for earthquakes, every 0.1 doubles the force  ffcheesy ffcheesy

That looks like a NICE building and very sealed up, and the doors look good.  Do the doors stay open at night?  Many birds do their thing at night, especially the little sapsucker woodpecker looking birds, but lots of bird poop is also from birds trapped overnight that flew in during the previous day in our buildings and can't or won't get out when we close the doors.

One thing I have seemed to see is that if a nest is allowed to produce, the offspring will have a greater chance of returning the next season and the nesting issue will be multiplied, like a homing pigeon effect.  I don't if it's real or just my perception, but it sure seems that way.

I would not put any insulation up until the bird issue is solved, they love that stuff and the blackbirds especially will actually nest directly in it.  Having an open and sterile environment so you can see what's going on is best.       

Yes, "earthquake" is a good description, because I spend more time in my hunting room than pretty much anywhere else in the winter, it's also where my hunting clothes are, and where I do much of my "gunsmithing," if you can call it that, and is recently where I have been building up my 22.  It's pretty clean and clutter free.

I did hit a 9 out of 10 a few years ago when my solar kiln became infested with mice and spiders.  I even made a video on it, but here a picture of me destroying it and attempting to "gently" fit it into my burn pit.  No more spiders in the solar kiln, problem solved with a match.   

YH, are you familiar with a "sterilization cycle"?😁

Yes, I tried, I tried and I tried.  I could never get it hot enough, long enough, to kill the 4 and 8 legged critters.

So I switched from the Va Tech Solar Kiln Sterilization cycle to the BP Sterilization Cycle.   

So, a wild guess here, that's Browning Pump cycle. . . .
. 
oh, just a second. . . . 
Got, Burn Pile cycle.
Yeah, that's the one.

Good guess but... 
 
The Yellowhammer BP Sterilization Cycle involves about 3.8 liters (Canadian) of British Petroleum diesel fuel and exceeds the minimum FDA required 133F temperature by a substantial margin.  ffcheesy ffcheesy

Plus, it's fun.

😂😂😂

Thanks! The doors do not stay open at night, ever, though there is a gap between the track and the header and that's where the birds are coming in. I didn't think about it being "home" for new baby birds, I don't like the sound of that, but the problem will be solved, one way or the other, as soon as I can get out there for a day or two. 

So did the NEW--NEW guy work out?

The New - New guy was the equivalent of the Spider Terminator.  The first thing I asked when he got out of the truck was if he was any good and he looked at me and said "Yes I am, I hear you have a spider problem, and I HATE spiders."  Correct answer!  Turns out he was a carpenter many years ago, and got bit by a brown recluse, and before long it turned until a huge oozing ulcerated crater on his shin, and the Dr. basically told him he was lucky it didn't get to the bone, as he was digging out the dead meat.  So after that, he decided to become a bug guy, and says he lives to kill spiders.

We walked around, the house was pretty good, he sprayed it but said it looked pretty bug free, but when we went to the barn, things changed and he found a brown recluse pretty quick while he was spraying, and he said something like "OK, I get it" and he went back to the truck and literally brought out the big gun, the "Bug Bazooka."

It's essentially a large plastic container filled with bug powder, fitted to a large hand piston pump, like an old school tire pump.  He put on his serious bug suit and mask, went up into the second story, and started pumping and the powdered insecticide came out like a stream from a flamethrower.  He held it like Rambo held the M60, and pumped the piston, and large amounts or powder sprays out the other end.  I retreated down the steps out of the fog, but it was pretty epic, and certainly the overkill I wanted.   

I took a picture of the bug bazooka, so I could buy one.  He certainly "talked the talk and walked the walk" so now we will see how it goes.
   

" he lives to kill spiders"

Sounds like the English translation of a Native American name but I don't know how to say that in Choctaw. Sorry, I am probably influenced by the book I am engrossed in now. 
 But it sounds like you got the right guy! ffcheesy

   I wonder if one of them Bug-o-salt, or what ever they are called, would work for spiders?

When we moved into our house now I hired some movers to move the really big heavy stuff. So, here they come, 3 beefy kinda white trash tough guys full of tattoos and foul mouths. They moved things like champs, cabinets full of tools, moved no big deal, couches and/or beds down some complex stairways, they did great. Then we moved to the garage and I've never seen anyone more scared of spiders, all 3 of them, "eek'd"! it up and scrambled as they saw any hint of spider. Made me laugh. We don't have much for dangerous spiders around here. 

Don't get Robert started on a bug-o-salt gun with a night vision scope.  fudd-smiley spidey-smiley 

YellowHamner,

Is there a waiting period on a "bug bazooka" like when you buy certain guns? Or is it something you can walk right outta the store with ffcheesy

I think the waiting period is only if it has a silencer on it.  

I had one of the Bug O Salt guns, I used to carve notches into the plastic stock whenever I killed something.  

  All the westerns I read say "Only a tinhorn carves notches in his gun" ffcheesy

I'm not qualified enough to be a "tin horn," at best I'm a "plastic horn.  My gun is made of plastic, is bright orange, shoots table salt and I got it for free.  And I carve notches in it to the never-ending embarrassment of my grown up kids!   


I do watch reruns of the "Rifleman" does that help my reputation at all?   

But he shoots from the hip, not a rest. ffcheesy ffcheesy

Oh, you ain't seen me shoot.  I could shoot before I could walk.  Chuck Connors wouldn't have a chance. 

I grew up shooting squirrels, ducks, rabbits, deer, coyotes, anything that moved, jumped, ran hopped, flied or bled, have been called a "professional hunter" more than once, and I once bet a guy I could hit more clay pigeons than he could, and me using a BB gun, like Jed Clampett.  I won.   

I LOVE trick shooting, and practice free hand all the time speed and accuracy shooting with my rifles, pistols and shotguns.  Lots of them.  Martha and I won the skeet shooting competition off the fan tail of the cruise ship, shooting doubles, on our honeymoon.  She can shoot too. Our kids can shoot.  Chip can shoot.  Martha gave me a Remington Lt20 for my engagement present, I gave her a diamond ring.   My groom's cake at our weeding had camo green icing and a guy shooting a duck on top.  She knew what she was getting into.  It was and is the only time I've ever missed opening day of dove season, my honeymoon.
       
We had a shooting session with my brother's new suppressed 300 blackout for Christmas, and everyone, including my Mom, was shooting at the man silhouette target at 25 yards, center mass, full mags.  I bet them I could do better with my Ruger 10/22 (not that I would bet or brag), and put 29 rounds out of 30, (I missed once) in the head at 25 yards, rapid fire.  I don't have a picture, but it was epic, lots of noise, lots of fun, lots of dust.

I like sawmilling, but I was born to shoot.  Kentucky genetics had a lot to do with it, here is my 84 year old mom shooting the 300 suppressed blackout during the Christmas Shoot and Shout and having a ball.  My Dad willed me his bolt action, magazine fed, full choke 410 that he routinely took on dove hunts.  We were at a nearby farmer's dove hunt one day, the birds were flying fast, and the host and guests stopped shooting and started side betting, just watching him limit out on birds, with a full choke 410.  He could routinely double on doves with that $10 bolt action clip fed shotgun that someone sold him when he got out of the Army.  THAT was impressive, my old man could shoot better than me.

I have a tendency to go overboard on stuff, and I go WAY overboard when it comes to shooting. 

Well, I guess your family likes to shoot. I'm not into it that much but, I do hit what I'm aiming at off-hand. 
I have friends into it too making their own loads and custom guns. Hitting 2 doves with a bolt action is impressive. :thumbsup:

And as good as you are, I'm the polar opposite! My Dad was an outfitter for over 40 years and pulled off some fantastic shots, and here comes his son...... who LOVES to shoot, LOVES guns, but can't hit the barn if I'm standing inside, usually. Once in a while, things feel sorry for me and jump in front of a bullet to make me look good, but I always admire those who seem to be able to do it naturally!!

I have a feeling you are better than you are saying, sandbagging a little!   Come on by, and let's shoot a spell!  Having an outfitter in the family is pretty cool, the Old Folks came by shooting as a way of life and sounds like you have the heritage!
 
I remember, even when I was a young boy, and the family went to see my Grandad and kinfolk in Kentucky, even as a kid, I only had two jobs when we drove up: split firewood or bring home dinner with the single shot 22, and as I got older, the 16 ga or then the 30-06.  All my relatives could hunt.  My uncle could walk through the woods, drunk off moonshine, and see the black dot of a rabbit's eye sitting motionless in an impenetrable briar thicket from a hundred feet away, and I could never do that, it always amazed me.  He would tell me, "Hey boy, go shoot that rabbit, while I take a drink."  Or as a kid, being told by my Dad to shoot the chimney sweeps as they were flying around and pooping on the roof, (but don't hit the roof) and it didn't take a genius to see the that the rain water running off the roof was going into the cistern, where the drinking water was dipped with a bucket.  Or my dad teaching me to stick a split stick up hollow trees and spin it, so as to entangle the odd unlucky squirrel nesting in the hollow, and pull it out and shoot it.  That works, but is pretty scary, as squirrels get real mean when they get jerked out a tree by their tail! 

Also, woe to the person who shot and missed, my aunt would listen and count shots back at the house and if anybody shot three times, they had better bring back three squirrels, rabbits or quail!  They complained if I used anything other than 22 shorts, (remember them?) and gave me grief if I took anything other head shots to save meat.  Unless I had the shotgun, but then I had to "bark" the squirrels, which means to put most of the pellets of the shotgun pattern into the tree and catch the squirrel on the very edge of thin pattern to save meat by rationing the number of pellets that could hit the meat.

I remember when my now son in law came to his first Milton family dove hunt, many years ago.  He thought he was a good shot, started doing a little bragging, and I asked him where he was going to shoot? He said he was just going to stand next to my daughter, they were both in college at the time, and shoot the doves she missed.  HOOO BOY that caused some laughs!  I told him if he stood next to my daughter, he wouldn't get a bird, she would kill every dove that comes into their airspace before he would even get a shot off.  He looked at me like I was crazy, he 100% didn't believe it and put his dove stool right next to my daughter, I guess trying to be romantic or something. ffcheesy  Of course, my daughter put on a shooting exhibition to make her old man proud!  Singles, doubles, I don't remember exactly ho. It was hilarious!  A little later, I saw him pick up his stuff and gingerly move to a tree about a hundred yards away, to get out of her defensible airspace, he had not shot a single bird yet, and she was well on to her limit.  The problem is he unwittingly moved into my brother's outer field of fire, and that's never a good idea, my brother can shoot.  So I decided to have a little fun, texted my brother across the field with a prank, and he put the full choke tube in his beautiful Franchi, and he just put up a wall of lead death, and as soon as my SIL raised his shotgun on a bird, my brother would hammer it, and it would puff up dust as it hit the ground.  So my daughter had him cut off in one direction, and my brother in the other.  WELCOME to the Family!

Anyway, he still talks about that even though it was years ago, and he even gave her a new Super Black Eagle 3 (I'm jealous) for Christmas this year. 

How many others had or have kinfolk like that on this Forum?  I bet there is a lot of them. 

 

Fortunately, I have zero experience with brown recluse spiders.  We get black widows but those are usually in firewood and under things.

These folks might have some solutions for you:  https://www.domyown.com/spiders-c-22.html

I've used bifen around the house and it's cut way down on other critters.

Robert, I mostly learned to shoot on my own. I was always was drawn towards it. Like a lot of self taught shooters, I'm so-so. I look great around novices and quickly go to the middle of the pack when pros show up😊

My patenal Grandpa grew up real hard scrabble. They didn't take extra shots because while they didn't have an aunt listening for shots, there was a game warden😊 And they didn't have money for extra ammo, either. 

That's what led to my Dad not being much of a hunter, I think. When he was a kid, he saw a couple of instances of Grandpa finishing a deer off with a knife, which is never pretty and turned him off to it. 

That lead to me not having anyone teach me to shoot. But what I lacked in instruction and talent, I made up for with enthusiasm😊 

Most all of my early hunting was ruffed grouse, and deer. Hunting grouse, without a dog, is a real challenge. The way grouse flush and the cover they hold in makes them a really, really tough target. It's not unusual for them to hold until you almost step on them, and then they explode in a thunder of wings, zigzagging through the cover. 3/4 of the time you don't even get your gun up far enough to take a shot before they are out of sight. 

I used to get a lot of birds, though. Not because I was a good shot, but because I spent my every waking moment out in the woods😊

I had a Remington 870 Express. My parents went in on it for me, bought it at the K.art gun department. I still have it. I want to love other shotguns more, but I can hit with that dang thing better than any other scatter gun I've ever had🤷 

I'm almost 6'6" and most guns don't fit me well. I must be long necked, guns with more drop fit me better. Nice $4000 Berettas always seem to fit fine, why is that🤔😊

I remember shooting a sporting clays league with a couple buddies when we were 19-20. I could usually hit 30 or so out of 50 birds. Guys always thought I was shooting a semi-auto with the ol 870, so I guess the controls and pump action must've suited me fine. I actually had to demonstrate the pump action for them, they didn't believe that it was a pump. 

Years later I got into an IDPA pistol league. With a pistol (I shot a Springfield 1911 45 ACP) I was once again firmly upper middle pack in skill😁 But I really enjoyed it, you got to send a lot of rounds downrange. 

Often, there would be a "side match" for carbines, or as in this case, shotguns with slugs. We were shooting silhouettes. I didn't know anything about the side match, so I was shooting a friend's vintage Browning A-5. It was having some issues, short cycling and often not picking up the second round which you wouldn't realize until you heard the "click" of an empty chamber. One of the other guys sae me struggling with it, and offered, "you want to use my gun?" I looked and he had an 870 with a slug barrel and rifle sights. "Sure!" I said😁

Darn it, I took that 870 and everything just fit. "Tink, tink, tink!" The steel targets were falling and I couldn't miss😂 Now to drive home the point of how mediocre of a shot I am, I won that shotgun match. And I still haven't forgotten nearly 20 years later.

The guy with the 870 said he wished he wouldn't have offered me his gun😁

That's cool!  The old Remington's are the king of good shooting, point and hit firearms.  You and the 870 sound like my dad and the 410!  I had an old 1100, when they were still well made, and I used to tell people, when I pointed it at something, it died.  My dad had a 30-06 pump rifle based on the 870, and it was a monster.  He once hit a running deer, 175 yards, in the neck.  Dropped it like a brick.  He said he shot for the neck to either hit or clean miss.  He hit.   

Good story BB, nice read. I expect we will see a few others too.
 I grew up in suburbia. There was no walking out my back door and hunting. But my Pop was a country kid and always hunted no matter where he lived up until I was about 12. Pop was also a pretty good Gunsmith and did work on the side for several shops. I learned my gun safety at about age 6 in the basement where we set up a (short) range shooting .22 gallery rounds at targets backed by a stack of phone books on the cellar stairs at the far end of the basement. Pop had rebuilt a pair on Winchester Gallery guns (I forget the models, but I still have them here) and we had a lot of fun and went through a pile of bricks of ammo. I learned a bunch and managed (to my everlasting amazement) to never do something stupid.
 Later in life, one Christmas my Pop (maybe nostalgia, I dunno) bought matching Stevens .22's for both my BIL and I . I was engaged at the time. The day after we decided to make a trip to one of the few reaming sporting goods store that still ran an underground range for pistols and small caliber.. I brought my impending bride along who had never held a gun, there were none in her family. My intention was to teach her how to shoot. We also brought along a beautiful Winchester .22 pump that my Pop lovingly restored and had fully nickel plater for her to use. I still have and cherish that one, it's a story unto itself. Anyway, after running my 'girl' through the basics and reviewing range rules I let her shoot. Bottom line was she had the best targets of the day, all of them. I still think women are better at this than men. After that, there wasn't much time for messing with guns for years.

Then I got my Pistol permit after about 6 years of marriage. The county had an indoor range that was pretty nice and was halfway between my work and home.  I was working up handloads for two of my pistols (a .380 and a .38 mag) and would stop at the range about every other day on the way home to test rounds and make note. I got to know the County PD weapons instructor who was there all the time doing requal sessions or training for various officers and detectives. We hit up a friendship and he gave me some pointers that helped and he enjoyed watching me improve, he said. I was working on my self defense skills, so timed and rapid fire mostly and working on reloads, etc. He was a big help. One of the things that really peeved him was getting detectives and officers in for requal that just could not properly handle their weapons or accurately discharge them. He found it alarming and he would do a lot of yelling. I could hear him berating these people over on the next point (separated by triple glass.
 One day he got really mad at these two detectives shotting for requalification, he was ticked and screaming. I was over on the next point and he saw me stop shooting to listen in. What I could make of was this ( basically): "If either of you two had to draw and use your weapons on a suspect you would be DEAD! You shoot so bad and handle your weapons so poorly that you don't stand a chance. In fact I could grab ANY random civilian on this range right now and he OR she could outshot you! You wanna make a little bet on that?! OK", and he storms out of their point and comes in the door to mine and with his back to the others he says "wanna have some fun? grab your ammo and a couple of speed loaders". So we parde around and he sets me up a target while he asks if I am ex military or LEO or anything. "Nope, I'm just a regular guy". " "OK" he says "10 rounds rapid fire, best score and time". Now I'm not sure I can do this, I was still working on it, but I do my best. He was right that guy and gal sucked. I blew their doors off and I didn't shoot as well as I could trying to get the time down. After that we had fun with that routine from time to time and it actually made me better. ffcheesy

 But then we moved and the kids took all of the spare time I had and I haven't gotten back to it. I did, and do enjoy it though.

   My dad bought me a used Remington 870 20 gauge pump when I was 7 years old which would have been around 1960. It came with a ventilated rib and a poly choke. My only regret about it is I I had it disassembled and in the area behind the seat on Christmas Day around 1965 and older brother was driving our Chevy II and blew a tire and we ran off into a canal off the Suwannee River in Dixie County Fla and the barrel went out the window and we could never find it. Dad bout a 28" modified barrel which I have on it till today. I love it. 

   Around 1983 I bought a Remington 7600 30-06 pump rifle which is my go-to rifle for deer hunting. I suspect that is the one Robert is talking about his dad using only he probably had the earlier 760 model.

IDPA stands for International Defensive Pistol Association if memory serves. As so often happens, one time I came home and put my gun away not intending for it to be my last match. And as it goes in life, things got busy and I never got back. I don't even know if that organization still exists.

There are still some "Action Pistol" competitions and 3 Gun etc locally. Those would be in a similar vein. I need to get back out there. Now that the boy is 14 and I think he can shoot some of them with me, that's more impetus to do it. 

Anyways, I brought up the IDPA competitions because of how much I feel it improved my pistol handling and shooting. The courses were simulated close range defensive situations. Scores were based on time and hits/misses. There was enough pressure with trying to remember the sequence of the course and such, that it quickly revealed any inadequacy in gun handling and familiarity.  The upside is that really caused you to improve in those areas quickly. 

I always advise people that are getting a concealed carry permit to go find and shoot in someone these competitions. You don't want the first time you are drawing your pistol under pressure to be an actual defensive situation.

I ought to try one of those courses one day, they sound like fun.  I was even considering getting into the old Western Six Gun fast draw thing, but maybe next year...I do go squirrel hunting with my Browning Buckmark 22 pistol occasionally, and it whacks and stacks them.  A couple years ago I got a Smith and Wesson Performance Center 22, but I have only shot targets with it.   

You are exactly right, my Dad had the 760, and my brother has it now.  Beautiful rifle that handles like a shotgun.  My first deer rifle was the 1100 version, the 7400 rifle.  My Dad never much cared for the auto version, he said it would let me down someday, but it never has.  I remember one time I was in the snowy woods of Kentucky, in a tree stand, and a big old buck came trotting by and I leaned the gun against the tree, ejection port facing the bark, pulled the trigger and I'll never forget seeing, out of he corner of my eye, the empty case being ejected, bouncing off the tree the rifle was braced on, and rebounding right back into the action as the bolt cycled and it "stovepiped" half sticking out.  The good news was my first shot was a hit, and the deer was down.  I when back to the house, I told Dad the story and we both agreed, the good old Remington didn't let me down, after all.  I still have this gun, I can't tell you how many deer it has killed, but it is a lot.  There was just something about those old Remingtons that just worked.  I still have my old Light 20 and also, a pretty rare Remington 1100 Anniversary Edition, in .410 or 67 gauge.  I used to shoot 500 shells a day on the skeet range with it, and I needed a low recoil shotgun to keep from getting "the headache." 

I never had the access to those competitions, nor the funds or time. I compensated by reading a lot and studying and trying to internalize the mental skills involved as well as range shooting with that in mind and sandpit shooting with a variety of targets and ranges. I studied the laws and actual case studies which I feel is just as important. How do the courts routinely interpret such actions and things like that.
 It always amazed me the number of people I know who had gotten full carry permits but never went through any training other than what was required and an occasional trip to the range, I tried to explain to them that although you have earned the permit, you have also taken on a huge responsibility and you'd better understand what that means. Having to even consider reaching for that weapon puts you in a frame of mind that (should) instantly put a lot of pressure on you. I had to do it once and very fortunately, it turned out well and nothing further happened and there was no discharge required. But I can tell you that my brain ran a hundred miles during that minute or two. You make a commitment when you draw that weapon, if you are not prepared to understand that commitment and execute it properly the cost can be very high. It's not a game.

I've never been what I would call a great shot. (Don't tell Robert, we like to pick on each other to much). I did do well enough at hunting to put some meat on the table, with my trusty ole 300 Savage. I have a terrible addiction to those guns, and now own a few of them. Never had much experience with a shotgun until the last few years. My shotgun training consisted of clearing a room with pump shotgun, that they used in the military. That entire training might have consisted of a couple of days, just so they could say they trained me. A few years ago I won a sweet 16 Browning shotgun and started getting into dove hunting. Lots of fun. Last year I sponsored a young neighbor at the local skeet range. He is one of team members and is doing really well. By sponsoring him I got to go down and shoot some with him a couple of days. That got me hooked, so I went and got me a Benelli 12g. I recently won a Browning A5. I will try them both and see which I like better. Matter of fact I just sponsored him again for this coming year, and we are going to be at the range this Sunday afternoon.

Music is my dad's side of the family's passion. They sing and play multiple instruments.  One uncle is a deer hunter and some cousins are rabbit hunters.  But mostly non-hunters including my dad.  My brother and sister followed this side. 

Mom's family on the other hand were and are shooters.  This gene settled with me and my children. My daughters particularly got the shooting talent from their grandmother.  

Mom and dad were only married a few years and dad, a Methodist minister, was assigned to a group of churches in the mountains.  I was a newborn and my brother was 5 years old back in 1962. 

Some local ruffians decided the preacher's family would be easy to pick on.  So it started with spinning car tires in the wee hours of the night, smashed mailboxes and escalated to car and parsonage widows being shot out.  There were dozens of harassing acts over the course of a few months. 

They usually rode by the parsonage in the afternoon and did donuts in the road or fired guns in the air or otherwise caused a disturbance. 

One afternoon mom went across the road, floated  half a dozen milk bottles in the creek and waited until the boys came by for their usual afternoon activities. 

Mom pulled her .38 revolver and sunk all six milk bottles as the ruffians look on.  She turned around and started reloading.   Her audience couldn't leave fast enough.  

They never bothered us again.

Our concealed carry class instructor commented on my daughters' unusual ability with their pistols.  They told him their grand mommy taught them.  I still don't think he believed them.  

I was a good shot as a younger man.  Lost much of it due to lack of time to shoot (12 year of college and living in NY for 4 years).  Eyesite isn't what it used to be, (real close and real far).  Not as much to prove.  I got my NRA pro-marksman when I was 12 at scout camp.  My dad was a military policeman in the Army and was a member of the "Colonel's rifle team".  He had awards/certificates for M1 Garand and carbine on his DD 214.  No pressure.  I could shoot cans and just keep them hopping as soon as they touched the ground until the old 22 ran out of ammo.  the tube held I think 18 rounds. We were sitting up on a hill over a pond in a pasture plinking down by a pond.  I saw just the head of a bullfrog pop up.  I do not want to guess the distance, but if I remember right, it was far enough away, we could not throw a rock in the water.  Maybe 200 feet.  all I could see were eyes breaking the surface.  I shot and got him.  I think my dad was impressed and proud.  I was 14. :usa: :thumbsup: :sunny:

We only had a BB gun once my stepdad came into the family when I was about 8. That was the only thing I'd shot until I got a .22 that was meant for critter control, if needed, once I owned a little land. I never really got into shooting but as times changed as much as I didn't really want guns in the house it felt like having a few may be good, for self defense should the s ever hit the fan. I have not shot much but feel like I need to go out and practice, I can do so in the back yard, but I find ammo expensive enough that I rarely want to spend any. I've never tried any target practice other than the random pumpkin, so I have no idea what kind of shot I am. I don't have much desire to hunt, though I would if I were hungry. You guys are making me want to go out this weekend and make some noise.

Don't let Jake fool you, he can shoot.  He stopped by one day, and we were playing around with my neat little Performance Center 22 pistol, with a few extra aftermarket bits I'd put on it like better trigger, better hammer, better stuff and we were ringing metal pistol targets at short range, and then I told him how well the gun shot at longer range, and I pointed the 22 pistol at my 100 yard target (an old hay ring with 12" tall sheet metal steel band on it to hang rifle targets, and pulled the trigger and pow...wait for it...wait for it and...bing! as the little bullet hit the steel.  Then I did it again, pow....bing!  I looked over and Jake had this big old grin on his face and I said here, it ain't that hard.  So I handed him the pistol, he launched a couple  and then, pow....bing, pow....bing, pow...bing...yepo, a hundred yards with a 22 pistol...yeah, THAT's fun!



Here is a video of the legend Jerry Miculek, world record holder, shooting the same pistol minus upgrades, I use him as what I "should" able to do, a half dozen rounds on target in a second or so.  It's a lot harder than it looks and why try to do it, it's just plain fun!  And no, I can't even get close to what he can do, but it doesn't mean I can't try!

Quote from: barbender on January 22, 2025, 08:55:49 PMHunting grouse, without a dog, is a real challenge.

When I was a teenager I used to hunt grouse. I was not that good. As barbender said, they sometimes won't fly until you about step on them then they would take off before I could even get my gun up. I had a used Ithaca 12 ga. pump that I still have and love. I learned to watch where they flew (it was never too far) and the second time I was ready for them. I'd still miss alot but I got a few. I had a friend I used to hunt with. His father had died when he was young and he ended up with his dads 20 ga double barrel that used to be his grandfathers. I don't remember the model, but it was nice and boy could my friend shoot grouse with that thing! He had a knack for it and most times I'd hear a shot and see the bird drop before I even realized there was a bird.

I have a crude range in my back woods. I have marked off 100 meters in 25 meter increments. I enjoy shooting and I'm OK but I doubt I could hang with most here. My son is a Marine and qualifies expert on rifle and pistol. We love to shoot together whenever he is home and boy, can he outshoot me.

   I was a fair shot till I joined the USMC and they made me a much better shot. I used to focus on the target and not the front sight post. That was the first time I'd ever used a peep and post type sight and I liked them. Focusing on the target I'd hit tight 4s but focusing on the front sight converted them to 5s/bullseyes.

   I confess I was never a very good pistol shot. I had a mental block. I figured if I'd let the enemy get that close to have to use a pistol when I could make head shots at 500 yards that I had done something seriously wrong.

"Get some!" I try not to watch too many of Jerry's videos. He has the kind of skills that make you not even want to get your gun out😊

Also, the people that get worked up about topic drift should stay away from this thread😁

My son in law has a hard time walking by a gun for sale without buying it. He brought a S&W 500 out, he was afraid to shoot it😂 That thing is ridiculous, but it's what you'd want in a chest holster in Grizzly country I think!

https://youtube.com/shorts/C3Ts6fdDaD4?si=eNtl9-8Yr2TqXqaD

A friend was paring down his gun collection for some retirement funds.   He had a .454 Casull revolver.  It was wicked and mean to shoot.  

He let me keep it for a couple of months to decide if I wanted it.  I shot 3 rounds and a couple buddies shot a couple.  IIRC the max psi is 60,000 plus.  

It's not fun to shoot.  It was fun to talk about though. 

Accuracy after the first round was difficult because you knew what was coming if you squeezed the trigger.  

I didn't buy it...

Quote from: SawyerTed on January 23, 2025, 03:35:47 PMA friend was paring down his gun collection for some retirement funds.   He had a .454 Casull revolver.  It was wicked and mean to shoot. 

He let me keep it for a couple of months to decide if I wanted it.  I shot 3 rounds and a couple buddies shot a couple.  IIRC the max psi is 60,000 plus. 

It's not fun to shoot.  It was fun to talk about though.

Accuracy after the first round was difficult because you knew what was coming if you squeezed the trigger. 

I didn't buy it...

I've also shot a friends .454.  It's a handful, to be sure.  I noticed the rotational torque more than the recoil or muzzle flip.

Good decision, you got to hit, and hit multiple targets, otherwise the "second bear" will get you.  It's what I tell my kids, and work on myself.

Recently, my brother had brought a relatively popular gun that deserved and got my derision and ridicule when he pulled it out.  This pistol AR looked cool, but jammed every second or third shot, had a pinned muzzle brake that wouldn't come off for a suppressor, and had a dead battery on the red dot when he pulled it out of the case (no battery saver or Shake Awake feature).  Instantly proven to fail the "reliability" criteria required as a self defense weapon, but OK if used as a short club.  To make matters worse, the repeated firings and thunderous overpressure concussions actually made may eyes hurt, standing behind him with Walkers on (to see how bad the concussion was). I told him of he were to shoot that, in a small room, he would be on the ground, blind and deaf, in the fetal position, blood oozing out of his ears after the first shot, so might as well throw out the 30 round mags he'd be unconscious well before then . ffcheesy ffcheesy  Here is a picture of the muzzle flash.  That one is now SOLD.  I think I still have flash burns on my retinas! 

Springfield Saint 308 pistol?


I have a PSA 300 BLK pistol, that's a nice shooting little gun and not loud. 

Also a full size PSA AR10 308. Fairly light for an AR10 (they are a copy of the DPMS gen 2 I think) and it shoots nice. I haven't shot either of them more than to sight the red dots in on pieces of firewood at 50 paces, so I don't know how accurate they actually are. 

That S&W 500...well you're not going to get a lot of practice in with that thing😁 Actually, if I had one I would get some light load recipes for it to be able to put enough rounds through it to get familiar with the gun to be proficient with it. I used to shoot light loads in the 45 in the competitions, Hodgon Clays powder and 185 grain wadcutters. 240 grain factory rounds definitely byck more and are harder to keep on target. 

 Certainly, you need to shoot enough full power loads to be proficient with those, too. I'm certain you wouldn't notice the recoil of even the S&W 500 if a Grizzly was charging you, though😬

Bear medicine is the only reason I can see having one of those. I'm really not into shooting high recoil firearms just for the heck of it. Welln, not most of the time😊

Yup, I've had one of those high recoil guns that would kick the shortening out of a biscuit. It's one of the few guns I have ever sent down the road. I'm great at buying guns, but suck at selling them.
Robert, I had a neighbor bring one of those short, loud, ARs over one day. I completely agree, there is no pleasure in shooting it.

Quote from: customsawyer on January 24, 2025, 06:29:55 AMwould kick the shortening out of a biscuit

Thanks, from a northerner, for a beautiful phrase, never heard that one and I love it. 

I have a python and a judge.  They are heavy enough they are fun to shoot.  I guess you could conceal carry.  Might make you look like a heck of a man.  :uhoh: :wink_2: ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy

Well, Bless your little heart Aig!   ffsmiley

I don't enjoy shooting those lighter but heavy loaded guns, it's just not fun. I had a couple of buddies I would shoot with a lot in my 20's and we were at a sandpit at one point. My buddy liked hot loads, really HOT loads. He handed me his model 29 S&W collectors grade to try out on some bowling pins we were messing with. Well the twist on that thing would almost unscrew my wrist. Every time I fired it, it felt like getting hit in the face with a shovel. I even got a twingling in my chest. I shot one cylinder full and that was enough. One of the guys says to me "what's that stuff on your chest?" I looked down and my shirt was covered in copper jackets (hence the twingling). It seems the bullet would enter the pin, which would spin and the jacket would come out the other side about when the pin had spun 180°. That was not enjoyable.

 Speaking of S&W, I was working for a company looking to buy a couple of CMM's (Coordinate Measuring Machines) and it turned out that S&W had several of the models we were looking at so the salesman arranged a trip for us to go see them working and talk to the users. Talk about being a kid in a candy store!
 S&W is pretty tight on security. You have to empty all your pockets into a box that goes in a locked cubby, brief cases are not allowed either, nothing beyond a folder with papers in it at all, and you have to go through a metal detector. You had to be an American citizen and they ran quick drivers license checks. You are escorted 100% of the time and cannot touch ANYTHING. It is  HUGE plant, actually two, connected by an underground tunnel. LOTS of walking (or driving) to get around. We walked and walked and walked.
 Wow they had some neat stuff! I noticed as parts went through the manufacturing process at some point they became "controlled parts" meaning they were tracked and locked up when not being worked on. Also when they did begin working on them the work groups were in locked and fenced in areas. They had to get a supervisor to let them in and out. Every part was counted and inventoried going in and out of these areas, of which there were many. It seems they separated each assembly/fitting step into different groups. The further the process went along, the tighter the controls and security. They would not allow us anywhere near the final assembly areas.
 So we are walking down the aisle and I see a tray of revolver cylinders but they are HUGE and I stopped dead in my tracks. I asked our escort what these were for? I had assumed they were maybe making a bunch of oversize mockups or something. "OH" he says, "That's for our new 500 Magnum. You'll see it on the market shortly, we are just working through tooling and production methods." I was shooting a .357 K frame at the time and there was no way I'd wanna try to tuck something like that in a pancake holster.

 S&W was a fun tour and one most people will never see. They have a public range on the other side of the complex (takes about 10 minutes to drive around to it) where you can rent and try out most of their models as well as spend a lot of money for private lessons or on merch.

Quote from: YellowHammer on January 23, 2025, 08:41:18 PMGood decision, you got to hit, and hit multiple targets, otherwise the "second bear" will get you.  It's what I tell my kids, and work on myself.

Recently, my brother had brought a relatively popular gun that deserved and got my derision and ridicule when he pulled it out.  This pistol AR looked cool, but jammed every second or third shot, had a pinned muzzle brake that wouldn't come off for a suppressor, and had a dead battery on the red dot when he pulled it out of the case (no battery saver or Shake Awake feature).  Instantly proven to fail the "reliability" criteria required as a self defense weapon, but OK if used as a short club.  To make matters worse, the repeated firings and thunderous overpressure concussions actually made may eyes hurt, standing behind him with Walkers on (to see how bad the concussion was). I told him of he were to shoot that, in a small room, he would be on the ground, blind and deaf, in the fetal position, blood oozing out of his ears after the first shot, so might as well throw out the 30 round mags he'd be unconscious well before then . ffcheesy ffcheesy  Here is a picture of the muzzle flash.  That one is now SOLD.  I think I still have flash burns on my retinas! 

I have a .222 barrel for a Contender.  Not a bad bark or recoil but depending on the load there is some muzzle flash.  I wouldn't want to shoot it indoors though and of course, being a single shot means it's not really a good defensive option.

We shot some of those IDPA matches at a really nice indoor range that we used to have access to. We had a carbine side match after one. You have to remember, back then AR's weren't nearly as commonly owned as they are now. So when we had those matches, guys would bring a real menagerie of firearms. A few AR's, one guy had a lever action 44 mag that was cool (he was good with it too, and fast until he had to reload), a mec-tec carbine that used a pistol frame...all kinds of goodies. 

Well, any rifle round indoors is kinda brutal. Even a 223 has a good concussive affect indoors. But the guy that took the cake, showed up with an original Mosin-Nagant carbine. 7.62x54r. When that guy shot, everyone was bracing themselves😂 Ka-BOOM!! It had a flame at least 4' long and about the same diameter come out the barrel (I think it's safe to say that long action rifle caliber didn't burn all the powder in a carbine barrel)😂😂

 I've never experienced that kind of concussion except when we were shooting some Tannerite. A 223 makes tannerite go boom, but a 308 makes it go thum-POW! A few neighbors called during that episode😂😂 

NEVER shoot a bull raccoon inside a tobacco barn with a REM 270!   Muzzle flash, concussion and ringing ears are the result.  

Didn't have a choice, it was him or me! He made me pay the price for winning...

Those man eating raccoons are trouble!  They will charge with their head down, tail up, much like a Cape Buffalo!

We get a lot of rabid coons here, as well as one with distemper.  At first, the county would come out and test them when I shot them because they were acting "off", now they don't bother, they say if I see one that is acting rabid, shoot it.  I had one real bad experience when the dogs were barking like crazy, in the middle of the day, and a coon was climbing the fence to get at the dogs.

That's when you find out which gun you trust, because that's the one you come out with to kill a rabid coon about to bite your dogs. 

I have not seen a case of rabies in a Raccoon yet. Up here it's skunks and bats. If a raccoon is out acting odd during the daytime it's probably a distemper. I have dispatched a few. 

I definitely remember .22 shorts!!  That's about all I had to shoot until I was 12-13 years old! A single shot Winchester model 1902 bolt action was my gun. I still have it, even though it had it's stock broken by a grizzly bear when he raided our cache one year in camp. It'd handle shorts, long, and long rifle.
Like I said, I LOVE guns but I never got anything that wasn't a single shot until I was in about 8th grade. I've still got my .22, .410, .28, all the way up to the trapdoor Springfield carbine .45-70, and a handful of  others, along with a bunch of fun stuff that'll rattle off a few rounds faster and easier.  Weirdest ones are the Steyr M95 straight pull bolts. One of my best friends is an armorer for the movie industry, so he brings back a lot of "interesting" stuff to play with.
My wife's a natural good shot. She took a pistol course at a local range and got the first shot right in the middle...then pulled the second one and they thought she missed the whole target...nope, stacked it, and stacked another one on top of that. So if it's a tough shot, I don't have a problem letting her have a go at it, and she LOVES it too.  We do shoot a lot of gophers (ground squirrels)  here in the summer. It's a pretty easy bet to go through a couple thousand rounds of .17HMR in the summer. 
It's been a blast reading all the stories... I'm so glad to hear everyone else's experiences!

Now that Smith and Wesson has moved their headquarters to Maryville, The little I have heard is it is a difficult place to work and hard to get hired.

I would love to go on a tour like that. After working on machining environments for 30+ years it would be interesting to see how a different industry does things.

Yes MB, since we share very similar backgrounds, I know you would have enjoyed it, but you likely also would have been a little surprised how they handled their work flow and in the internal security. I don't think I would have felt comfortable being locked inside a cage to do my work. 
 I was however, familiar with working in secure facilities. O worked in shops where all you work, partial parts, completed parts, and paperwork had to be locked in the company safe at the end of each day and signed out each morning. I also worked at Sperry's for some time and everyone had to pass muster for a "Secret" level federal security rating. The parts we made there were carefully tracked and the building entry points had armed security. The complex covered over 100 acres.. When parts got to the point of assembly they went to secured shops to that with access restricted to those who had been cleared to work in just that particular shop. We had two military 'bases' on the premises, which were generally procurement and inspection offices. One was the US Navy and the other rotated once in a while, but when I was there it was the Turkish Navy. Restricted access to both, of course.
 But I found S&W quite different. Some parts are very modern and some shop sections had equipment that had been there forever doing the same operations. The security 'procedures' seemed to date back many many decades. Mike Belben worked in that plant for years and could probably tell you a lot more.
 Since they are very close to you, I wonder if they also moved down their public shop/school and range? It might be worth looking into. Fun for a visit anyway if it's not too far.

I guess we are not talking Spiders anymore???

Quote from: doc henderson on January 24, 2025, 06:46:57 AMI have a python and a judge.  They are heavy enough they are fun to shoot.

Doc, I just recently picked up a new model Python, 5.5". You are right, a really nice day at the range. I've been running light .38 spl mostly so far and it is pleasant to shoot. I also have my grandfather's carry gun from the 1960's, a beautiful little stainless S&W Mod 60. Took it out last week and it brought back a lot of memories. 

The short barrel Judge with 3" .410 shells makes a statement but it doesn't get much use as I only see a rattle snake ever 3-4 years.

.22 shorts were nice back in the day for plinking, but I also remember BB and CB caps. The BB caps were less powerful than my old pellet rifle but were fun in a bolt action.

As far as the Ar's go, yeah, kind of wondering what a lot of people are thinking when you see some of the setups. My .300 BLK will almost touch holes at 50 yds on a simple rest. I think it is a 12" barrel. It is not terrible on muzzle blast and feeds reliably. On the other hand, I've have friends show up with their tricked out AR's with red dots and such and they couldn't hit a paper at 50 yards.

I think not, Teakwood. Our recent cold weather must have chilled them out...

Maybe there all dead now with the nook YH uses. ffcheesy ffcheesy