Looking to buy a stronger piece of equipment for moving logs and boards around. What type of equipment should i get, a tractor, CTL/ Skid steer, regular backhoe etc. Assuming of course whatever it is will be able to handle a variety of attachments.
JMTC here. I bought a Kubota 65 CTL. It is their small unit but fit my budget and has been a real game changer for me. I am always impressed with my 30 hp New Holland tractor's ability to get the job done but the loader with forks and a grapple makes things go much faster. Putting the two together gives me a ton of ability to bring in logs and take away both product and scrap with ease. My back loves it!! Im sure others have good ideas as well
What other than sawmill tasks does this piece of equipment need to do. Snow removal, hay/field work, skidding logs, excavation, grading etc. It is kind of a what itch needs scratching the worst.
I'd say go up 25 to 50 hp on a tractor or a tracked skid loader. With quick attach capability.
check out outdoors with the Morgans on you tube he uses a mini skid, if you don't plan on other uses for a tractor it looks like a nice unit. A skid steer is a pain to get in and out of a hundred times a day.
I have a 35hp New Holland tractor and a old Ford backhoe.
Skid steers are herky jerky and not the best choice for handling lumber and logs. They are a compromise. Tracked machines are worse. I use a tractor converted forklift. It will lift 2500-2700 LBS. It will do about 97% of what I need to do. It will go off road too, but is basically an open rear end so a little finesse is necessary in snow and ice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/Johnsforklift3.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=133665)
I do have a large tracked skid steer if I need to lift and move something heavier, but not and ideal machine for regular use in this capacity.
With that said, another option that I've seen sawmill guys use is one of the smallest boom forklifts(aka telehandler etc). One guy I know has one that he bought at auction of former rental equipment. those are rough terrain, four wheel drive, have good lifting capacity, and the extending boom can be handy too. With 4 wheel steering they can turn fairly tight too, but not sure if the small ones have that? This is important to me for turning in my buildings, and in general. The downside is that the snall telehandlers are a lot more expensive used than say my tractor forklift. But if your operation can afford it.... a good machine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/Screenshot_2025-01-25_110550.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=357514)
PS. Vilibility can be a varying issue with all machines. I can see my fork tips pretty well with my tractor forklift, with my skid steer it's downright awful! With the telehandler you can probably see the forks pretty well, but you are obscured somewhat by the boom on your right side when maneuvering, depending on your boom position. Your sitting down on one side as compared to my tractor forklift where I'm sitting up high with 360 all around. Again, skidsteer is worst visibility of your fork tips, and you can't see behind and some of the sides are obscured. Early on I backed into a post/stemwall on my building. Broke out the post bracket anchors from the stem wall the pushed the post and wall out a little. Luckily I wasn't going too fast and it was repairable, but a little faster and I would have had a much more expensive problem on my hands. Backing into something is a real danger with skid steers.
All I've ever had is a rubber tired skid steer. It's not ideal for every task, but it is incredibly versatile. Down sides are getting in and out of it, and it tears up the mill yard.
As others mentioned, some of the OTM "other than milling😁" uses will probably determine the best machine for you. I do a lot of clearing, digging, etc where that skid steer with steel OTT's becomes another animal.
We really need to know some more specifics before we decide how to spend your money. Is this just a yard tractor to move logs and lumber? Is this an all-purpose tractor needed to dig, clear brush, do logging, skid logs, pull things? Somewhere in between? Do tell!
For material handling you simply can not beat a telehandler. Hands down they excel in lifting capacity, reach, maneuvering, etc.
I'll second that.
Nothing comes close to a wheel loader handling logs, or packs of lumber in a rough yard. Add a bucket for sawdust and chip and they are a mainstay of most commercial milling operations. I like mine around the 30k lb size.... 938 Cat or equivalent... I don't see too many logs that stretch it capacity wise but the real reason for capacity is the ability to sort log piles fast. Shifting 50 logs one at a time against 4 at a time is time consuming.
Forklifts are the kings of warehousing due to their compact size, tight turning circle and high lift ability. They're also great on a handstand. Figure your average pack weight and double it for the best compromise machine. The problem with machines working to capacity is the pack you can lift easily in the shed is a problem child when trying to place it on the far side of a truck using slippers. Mine is great for tight space warehousing but sometimes too small loading trucks.... the loader covers that gap.
Everything else I've tried is a compromise. But compromise is good when you need a machine to multi-task to pay its way. I've tried telehandlers, 4wd forklifts, backhoes - never seen a skid steer big enough for what we do here but that doesn't mean it can't work somewhere else - farm tractors with loader frames... wheel loaders from tiny to excessively large.
To me the question is what do you need it to do around your sawmill, and what could you use it for away from your sawmill to help ease the pain of buying it. Toys are fun, but toys that pay their way are funner.
Quote from: rusticretreater on January 25, 2025, 01:25:14 PMWe really need to know some more specifics before we decide how to spend your money. Is this just a yard tractor to move logs and lumber? Is this an all-purpose tractor needed to dig, clear brush, do logging, skid logs, pull things? Somewhere in between? Do tell!
I have a Kubota 33hp tractor, a full size backhoe and mini excavator for most OTM/ non-mill type of work. The only one that can lift a decent size log is the backhoe. Unfortunately, it is cumbersome to maneuver and my space is a bit limited. A bigger tractor would allow for more lifting but still have size issue just not as much. but a bigger tractor could also replace the Kubota. A CTL/ skid would allow more space but as others have said is not really smooth per say. Since much of the property i will be using it on is hills I am guessing the CTL with a lower center of gravity would be beneficial. What the question really comes down to is do I add another piece of equipment to cover the shortcomings of the others or is there a jack of all trades I should be looking for. If it helps I have no commercial ambitions, I use the mill for my own work and pleasure.
There's no perfect machine. I have a Kubota M7060 loader tractor, with a variety of loader attachments. I went to the tractor after having 3 skid steers during the previous 15 years or so. I find my tractor much more universal for moving logs, sawdust, snow and everything in between. It's warm, comfortable and has great visibility. I do not miss crawling in and out of skid steers. My tractor gets around in softer/wet ground much better then my skid steers, although a modern track machine would likely do much better.
My loader will lift/carry a little over 3000lbs. On purpose, I keep my lifts of finished softwood products to about 1000bf so they are manageable with the tractor.
With the tractor, I have a trailer hitch mounted to my 3PH nearly all the time, unless my snowblower is on. It's so convenient for moving trailers around the yard.
I also have a Kubota KX033-4 mini ex. I use it primarily for selecting particular logs from the piles if I have custom orders to fill. I find myself spending more time in the ex vs tractor. My next equipment upgrade would likely be to a KX57 sized excavator, although the little 33 is very impressive.
A JD 544/644 wheel loader would certainly have benefits for me as well, as it could be used for off-loading log trucks if equipped with forks or a clam. Fortunately we have a couple logging contractors with picker trucks, so that hasn't yet been a serious problem.
I have limited space so the spin in a circle is sometimes needed. could back out with a tractor. what is the largest log your mill will handle? what would it weigh? I got a 4-foot diameter 12-foot-long oak log that my ctl would not lift but could scoot along the ground. It has dried to the point I can lift it. I almost always set right on the mill from forks or grapple. I think a track/skid loader adaptor has so many options for tools. As mentioned, I can haul the loader and still have room for 9k pounds of wood on my gooseneck. My 277c is also pre-def. ffsmiley
If the other use is excavation and it's the only machine you plan to buy a fullsize 4x4 backhoe is hard to beat for the $. My skid steer sits under the sawmill shed mostly, I nearly always use the CAT 416 BH. If you get an IT (integrated tool carrier) one, they're ideal for using the forks.
Quote from: doc henderson on January 26, 2025, 09:31:13 AMI have limited space so the spin in a circle is sometimes needed. could back out with a tractor. what is the largest log your mill will handle? what would it weigh? I got a 4-foot diameter 12-foot-long oak log that my ctl would not lift but could scoot along the ground. It has dried to the point I can lift it. I almost always set right on the mill from forks or grapple. I think a track/skid loader adaptor has so many options for tools. As mentioned, I can haul the loader and still have room for 9k pounds of wood on my gooseneck. My 277c is also pre-def. ffsmiley
Maximum of what I expect to handle is 3 foot diameter and 12 foot length
If it is mostly hobby, you may go with a deal on a used machine, rather than decide on the "perfect" machine. There are always pros and cons for any machine. Ideally mine would only weigh 4K and lift 6K. that does not exist to my knowledge. If you run across a good deal, see how it fits your needs based in part on this discussion. good luck! :thumbsup:
Consult a wood weight per foot chart to determine how much that log will weigh. Then you can do analysis on the lifting power of tractors. You will need to subtract the weight of the attachment being used to arrive at a ballpark figure.
When looking at tractors/CTL/skid steers, examine the attachments available for costs comparisons. Some stuff is wayyyyy more expensive than others. Are attachments readily available or a $ingle $ource $upplier?
My tractor converted forklift is so ideal for me because
It's rough terrain
Turns tight inside
smooth ride
good visibility
can lift better than an FEL becuase the weight is closer to the pivot point(large wheels)
It's smaller so takes up less room in the building
easier to work on when needed
was much less expensive than any of the other alternatives
Mine is sized for what I do. I could not pick up a 36" green oak, but I did that with ash and 30"walnut. I can pick and move a 4x8 palled of 4/4 or 5/4 boards 35" tall.
You could buy a tractor converted forklift that is bigger than mine and still be in a reasonable cost range. I paid $4400 for mine back in 2013. Bigger ones today can be had for $7000-$10000.
An FEL of the same size as tractor conversion cannot pick up as much due to the distance from the fulcrum.
I would not trade my tractor forklift for a small telehandler because of the advantages I listed that the telehandler doesn't have-cost, visibility, tightest turning.
skid and track loaders can spin on a dime. nice in a tight situation. if you plan to go pick up logs then you need to do math. bigger might seem better. my 277c can lift 3500+ and weighs 9k. I have a 24 k gooseneck that weighs 6k. so down to 18 k, net. take another 9k and now I can haul 9k in logs if I need the track loader to pick them up. I thought about a bigger one but then it weighs 11 k so then could only carry 7k.
You need to put 15% on the truck, freeing up more carrying capacity on your trailer. :thumbsup:
Dave, are you saying I can go over 15% of need to put logs in the truck? ffsmiley ffsmiley ffsmiley I assume the truck is a given and the max gross weight is 24K.
The trailer has two 12k axles, presumably. You should have up to to 15% of your trailer weight on the goose. 10% on a bumper hitch. So, you put 3,600# on your truck, and you can still load those axles to 12k#. Obviously, the truck has to be heavy enough, but IIRC it's a dually, so should be good for it. Basically, you have two things to look at. The axle ratings, and the truck mfg's allowable towing capacity.
I think the truck is 26K on the towing, so you are prob. right. It is not like I can weigh the logs and have most likely been there or more a time or two! Thanks Dave. :wink_2: :thumbsup:
Quote from: kkcomp on January 25, 2025, 08:13:24 AMLooking to buy a stronger piece of equipment for moving logs and boards around. What type of equipment should i get, a tractor, CTL/ Skid steer, regular backhoe etc. Assuming of course whatever it is will be able to handle a variety of attachments.
KK, of the recommendations, made by others in this thread, I have or have used literally just about everything they have recommended.
if I could only have one single piece of equipment that I used to handle logs, handle stacks of lumber, and moved sawdust around, It would be my Cat 420 DIT backhoe.
With that machine, I can pick up 8000 pounds of logs or lumber, I can quickly change between forks and the bucket for handling sawdust, I could put a custom-made grapple on the front if I wanted to use that for handling Slab off cuts.
It's not necessarily the best machine for each individual task, but it is without question the best single machine for all tasks. It will pick up over twice as much as my skid steer, and will pick up almost twice as much as the tele handler.
If money is not a concern then a large tele handler and a compact track loader or skid steer would be my alternative choice.
I can say this, I would definitely have the farm tractor lower on the list than the backhoe because of the greatly reduced lifting capacity. Hope this helps
I like my telehandler LULL 1044 It will pick up 10.000+ lb and reach 34' out. Nice if I want to get a liff of lumber in the back without moving everything out. Stack pallets as high as I dare to. ffcheesy It will reach 54' high. I can take the forks off and put on a 5-yard bucket to load TT trucks with sawdust or chips. I never had a log I couldn't move 40' long.
I have a John Deer 5410 80-horse 4x4 with a bucket and 6' wide grapple and forks.. Heat and ac. I have a 12.000 lb Wallinsteen winch on the back to log with.
I use it for small things like loading woodchips on pickups.
I'd take a wheel loader or telehandler over a SS or CTL death trap any day. I prefer being up high with good all around visibility. Telehandlers have some visibility issues IMHO.
JCB makes an interesting CTL/telehandler with better egress, the only negative is that it's JCB
I'm going to agree with Scott Smith on the 420IT backhoe. I probably have more rolling stock than most on here but if I could only have one it would be the backhoe. It's biggest downside is the height of the boom. It wouldn't be able to get in my buildings.
My recommendation would be to go rent a couple of different machines and see which one you like best. My first backhoe, I rented from Hertz, with the intentions of buying it. I rented it for a month and anything I found wrong with it they would fix before I purchased it. If it didn't fit my needs I was only going to be out $1500.00 bucks or so. Of course the rent money went towards the purchase price when I bought it.
If I was in the market for a versatile machine now, I would seriously be looking at the Avant articulated small loaders. I was on a milling job for a tree guy last Fall who had a small one (528). I had seen YouTube videos of these but was not impressed, but after seeing this one moving hickory logs around in a tight space, I was impressed. Many attachments (over 200) , extendable boom, and about 6 models (made in Finland). Good luck!
I am going to go against the grain here (surprise) and say do not buy a versatile machine to replace the machine you already have, just so you can do everything average, but stronger and heavier..... Get the right machine for the job you do the most of, and let the rest still be done by your other equipment. Don't get a Shopsmith, get a dedicated table saw.
I had a down payment ready for a brand new Cat telehandler. I had access to every piece of equipment known to the Army and could drive all of them. I KNEW I needed the versatility of a 4 wheel steer, tilt frame tele handler. It is versatile, strong, slow, big, heavy, not building friendly, and I thought it was the best, most versatile thing I could get to replace Old Blue. The Cat rep offered to come out and see which size I needed and after looking around, watching us work for a few hours, said the LAST thing I needed was a telehandler. Just because it was stronger, didn't mean to was better or faster of the tasks we do the most. He said what I needed a gravel rated, super fast, strong, three stage mast, dedicated forklift, like the kind they load cruise ships with. This was so opposite my thinking I really waffled, and Marhta disagreed with the whole forklift thing, so he got on the phone, dropped one off by the end of the week, and after a couple days I would have shot him if they took it back! It did many of the tasks my previous "versatile" units could do, was as strong or stonger (after all, forklifts are designed to lift heavy loads), but in 1/4 the time was done, and whatever it wouldn't do, we just used the equipment we had already had. At some point, when we moved stuff and the forklift would get stuck in the mud, we just put down some more gravel. Now, years later, except for the log yard, we have gravel roads everywhere, and guess what, there is very little in our lumber operation that a true forklift won't do faster and better.
I learned my lesson. Get the best machine to do what you need most of and forget versatility, get optimized. If you watched my last video I discussed this very thing. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you need a forklift, what I am saying is if you already have a usable machine, then do not get another usable versatile machine only stronger. Instead of a Do All machine, get a Do Best machine.
Yanno on the list of backwards steps I've taken the forklift scenario rates a mention.
I had a 2.5 ton Cat diesel. Low hours, good condition, maybe 10 years old at the time. Good machine, very nimble in a confined space... but it was too small and I sold it.
Then I took an old 4 ton Hyster as part payment of a debt. No power steering and it needed about a square mile to turn it. No sideshift. Not at all operator friendly. And it was a money pit for obscure and hard to get parts. BUT it was a real 4 ton capacity as in 4 ton SWL and she'd handle about 6 or so ton before the back wheels got light. And it was built when forklifts were expected to be able to work in a yard... she had larger diameter tyres that could handle some mud/ dust/ rock/ potholes without getting bogged.
Everyone hated it but it did a job until it was spending more time broken down than working.
I have wheel loaders... I might prefer to load the mill or get packs away with a forklift but I have options.
So I park up the Hyster and go buy a new 3.5 ton Clark forklift. I was shopping on availability (mid covid) more than price but I got a good machine in a month time frame. Now not to talk down the Clark because it's a comparable machine to all the other big brands like cat, komatsu, hyster and Toyota but damned if I'm not somewhat disappointed.
See the new 3.5 ton lift is about half the old 4 ton Hyster capacity wise because how they measure lift capacity has changed across the board. Every one of the major manufacturers has done this... the rated capacity of the machine is ultimate lift weight not SWL with an allowance. And even on pneumatic yard tyres it gets dry or wet bogged super easy because today forklifts are really built around concrete floors.
I'm happy enough with the machine ... its quick and nimble and does most of what I need it to. But I miss the off concrete capability of the 40 year old antique money pit it replaced. I'll probably upgrade the yard loader first but another forklift is in the 5 year plan only this time I will be asking better questions. Just sayin'
I have a ford 555 backhoe with forks, and a 30hp JD diesel tractor with forks. I hop in my kubota 75hp CTL every time. The tractor's barely get touched. The ford 555 has more weight capacity. But is a lot more machine to maneuver around, also no good view of forks when they are low. 10/10 recommend a CTL over a tractor. Anyone who says they are jerky probably hasn't spent enough time getting used to the controls. Getting in and out is definitely a PITA but still well worth it.
A Sellick rough terrain forklift should be mentioned.
Sellick specializes in rough terrain machines, the forklifts depending on model have plenty of capacity for sawmill activity at 6,000 pounds and up.
Good serviceable units can be had for less than $20k. Getting one shipped isn't too hard or expensive.
Taylor forklifts are the really big boys that sawmills often use to transport and load large packs of lumber. Those have capacity in the 30,000 pounds and up range.
I have a 10000 lbs lift forklift, and really like it for what it does. My yard isn't as pretty as YH so I had them add dual tires. I also put on a 6 ft wide frame for the fork mount, since I handle a lot of 16 ft lumber. This gives it a lot more stability when handling the longer lumber.
Buy a wheel loader with a skid steer quick attach.
I have pics of mine in my file.
Wheel loaders and hills don't mix very well. Flat ground I would agree they are a good fit.
With everything the OP has mentioned, I would lean towards a CTL or compact telehandler (like a JLG 519.) Without knowing how your mill yard is set up it's really hard to say what would work the best though.
I bought a jd 244h wheel loader a few years ago. Weighs 14k I believe. I barely use my tractor any more.
Can lift anything I have needed to, put chains on for the winter time. Plowing.
Sawdust, compost, gravel whatever. Quick change bucket and forks.
I live in hill country and haven't had any issues getting around especially chained up.
Highly recommend. I paid 14k for it. Which is cheaper then most of what's out there these days. I'm def in the wheel loader camp
I'm with Yellowhammer(Robert) on this one. It's what I did. My rough terrain forklift does 97% of what I need, and does it best. The CTL is my back up machine that can lift a lot more weight.
kkcomp said " Since much of the property i will be using it on is hills I am guessing the CTL with a lower center of gravity would be beneficial."
So, do you have hills in your log yard, or lumber stack yard? If not, I'd still stick with the forklift. A CTL (compact track loader, aka a skidsteer with tracks), does have a lower center of gravity and is better on hills, but carrying something on it's forks as the slope changes can be tricky too.
The OP stated he wanted a machine that would handle multiple attachments, that is what brought the Avant machines to mind.
Quote from: John S on February 03, 2025, 11:03:06 AMThe OP stated he wanted a machine that would handle multiple attachments, that is what brought the Avant machines to mind.
Have you seen the cost of Avants? Even used - Ugh! How much can they lift? I wouldn't think enough for lifting stack of lumber and 30" oak logs. How high will they lift too? One of my problems with my forklift is it lifts just barely 8ft. which sometimes is a problem loading timbers on a semi flatbed, stacking high enough. In the past I made some 2x6 stepped ramps that I put up to the side of the flatdeck and drive the forklift on to get an additional 3" of height. If I get the chance(which a will on one of my forklifts) I'd change the cylinder/mast to get me to 9ft.
Thanks to all for the feedback, I have discovered and looked at many types of equipment that I was unaware of as a result. Allow me to elaborate on my requirements and current thought pattern.
First since I am retired it must fit my budget which is not zero but lower cost is always better. Second I only mill for myself so the only ROI is saving my back. Third it must be light enough and short enough to go on a 16K 22 ft trailer. Forth is the more functions it can do or be adapted to the better, see one and two for why. Fifth is I mostly work alone so the further away from the work zone the better for safety.
At first I was thinking and almost settled on a CTL but thanks to your input I have changed my thinking. Current thoughts are a compact telehandler with a skid steer mount and AUX hydraulics. Given the models I can find used or at auction are fitting the criteria except I will probably have to spend more than desired. I can then use forks for moving and stacking lumber and helping put up buildings. I can add a grapple bucket to move limbs and fletches for firewood processing (the manual way). I can add a rotating claw to load the mill and put brush into the chipper driven by my Kubota. I can add a mulcher or brush cutter for clearing walking and ATV trails to a large amount of my property. Not that I anticipate using everything available having the skid steer mount opens additional functions I may not have thought of at first such as stump grinders, hedge trimmers, impact hammers and augers to name a few.
Please feel free to share your thoughts because I would not have been able to get to this point without the help of this group.
My telehandler is one of the biggest ones. It has the solid tires and is well over 30K pounds because of them. I've never ran one with regular tires but mine likes to get stuck or leave deep ruts if not on fairly solid ground. I would still recommend that you rent one and see how it does in some of the areas you are wanting to work it. You can probably rent one for a few hundred bucks for a day or a weekend. That to me is a cheap way to find out if it will work for you or not.
Quote from: customsawyer on February 09, 2025, 08:57:47 AMMy telehandler is one of the biggest ones. It has the solid tires and is well over 30K pounds because of them. I've never ran one with regular tires but mine likes to get stuck or leave deep ruts if not on fairly solid ground. I would still recommend that you rent one and see how it does in some of the areas you are wanting to work it. You can probably rent one for a few hundred bucks for a day or a weekend. That to me is a cheap way to find out if it will work for you or not.
Took your advice earlier and did that. That's kinda how I got to where I am with my thinking.
Does a telehandler have enough Aux hydraulics to run all those attachments?
I don't think I have ever seen one running any attachment that uses a hydraulic motor.