I am looking for advice from someone more knowledgeable. I understand what to do when I have top bind, bottom bind, end bind or side bind, but sometimes I encounter a tree that I cannot determine the bind. This is particularly true in tangles of storm trees. I call these "indeterminable bind". The situation is just too complex for reliable analysis. In these situations, is there a specific procedure I should follow? What I do now is make a cut in the easiest side to free the saw from and watch the kerf.
There are folks on here that can give you a lot more information than I can. I will be watching this thread as I too hate a storm tangle. There was a very skilled You tube logger killed by a storm tangle last year. It seems that every situation is different and patients and saftey measures top the list for best practice. Looking forward to others reply's
Taylor, the Helene cleanup was like a whole new world for us trail volunteers. The increased complexity knocked our socks off. No injuries but near misses went through the roof. The shear volume also had an effect as our judgement would decay due to exhaustion. We made adjustments and got safer, but none of us think we are as good as we once did.
When working that sort of "storm cleanup", I like to work either from the top down, or stump up. Cutting and dragging the brush as you go. You still have to watch for tension in the small stuff you are cutting, but it's smaller limbs and you clear your view as you go. Once you have a clearer view of the mess, it's easier to work out where the tension and binds are.
That's the reason loggers don't like storm cleanup. You HAVE to slow down and go carefully. Arborists charge by the hour, so they are more able to take their time and work safely, but they earn those $$,
When I was cleaning up from the storm, I just dove off in it. Of course I was sitting the seat of my excavator, and moved it out to where it was safe to cut. I know there was a lot of places y'all were in, that equipment couldn't get there until some clean up had been done.
If you are really stumped by where the tension and compression is, you cold try an Axle Cut. Make cuts on all 4 sides of the log, leaving an uncut "axle" in the middle of the log. Watch for movement in the kerf as you are making the cuts, which will give you an indication of the compression and tension sides. Once you have figured that out, you can go back and finish cutting the axle from the appropriate side. If you are still concerned about binding, you can put a wedge in one of the other cuts you have made.
Axel Cut.jpg
Just to add on John excellent post and sketch: If you look at that remaining square inside the log and think of it as a tenon, go about 4" or more further down the log and do a plunge cut through the center of the log cutting up and down enough to cut all the fibers within that tenon area, then stem has no strength left and will tear loose. This gives you a number of options, either yanking it out with a skidder, cutting the tenon off, or just letting it fall free. If there is still a lot of tension, be very careful where you stand when you make that cut. Hell hath no fury like a tree released. ffcheesy
Wedges are your friend.
I cut a lot of trees that have been knocked down by the wind.
I have seen some things happen.
I always start with the limbs.
Cf farm is spot on along with John Mc
Start with the top. Work back. A gas polesaw is also a useful tool to get your body away from the danger
As I gain experience it is a lot of "feel" feel the pressure on the chain, feeling how things react. Got to step back and look at the situation hard. See what's twisted where, caught where, propped where. Storm damage is continuously the scariest thing I've dealt with.
But also realize that unless it's threatening a home/value it may not be worth the risk to mess with. :huh?
Jim,
I understand and agree 100%. I have had a massive undertaking cleaning up from Helene myself. Both on my property and as a volunteer helping with river clean up. These tangles will humble even the best tree professional ( I am not one of them ffcheesy ). Be safe out there!!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24074/thumb_IMG_20250307_121828350.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=358739) We were fortunate to get the heavy lifting done by the Corp of engineers. The large equipment made short work of tangles that could have been a real problem. It was great fun to watch!
Quote from: Jim Chance on April 04, 2025, 07:31:58 AMI am looking for advice ........ in tangles of storm trees. I call these "indeterminable bind". The situation is just too complex for reliable analysis. In these situations, is there a specific procedure I should follow? What I do now is make a cut in the easiest side to free the saw from and watch the kerf.
just be careful
cutting some blowdowns and this happened
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/gloves.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=207694)
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on April 05, 2025, 08:51:55 PMJust to add on John excellent post and sketch: If you look at that remaining square inside the log and think of it as a tenon, go about 4" or more further down the log and do a plunge cut through the center of the log cutting up and down enough to cut all the fibers within that tenon area, then stem has no strength left and will tear loose. This gives you a number of options, either yanking it out with a skidder, cutting the tenon off, or just letting it fall free. If there is still a lot of tension, be very careful where you stand when you make that cut. Hell hath no fury like a tree released. ffcheesy
What Old Greenhorn is describing is known as an Axle Lock, and it looks something like this:
Screenshot 2025-04-06 at 1.25.29 PM.png
You make the axle cut as I described earlier, then offset to one side or the other of that cut (I usually use about 6" offset), and bore cut through the middle, making sure to sever the fibers of the "axle", but leaving the axle still inside the log that you just bore cut. The axle end sticking in to the other log holds them together, so they don't tend to spring apart while you are in there working. When you are ready to haul the logs away, put a choker on the far end of one of the logs and pull/winch. The axle pulls out of the log and the two are separated while you are a safe distance away at the winch or tow vehicle.
I don't use this one much, but it can be handy when you have a tangled mess to deal with, since it keeps the logs connected/contained until you pull them apart.
Axle cut is a good name. I was told it was a "wheel cut", what's in a name? :wink_2:
This is mostly salvage type cutting so a little loss in value on the log is better than getting smashed. The only way to get your bar pinched is if there is compression force along the length of the log, but even they, some wedges in the first cuts should help you out. It's just another tool in the bag and rarely used but nice to know.
Quote from: taylorsmissbeehaven on April 06, 2025, 10:31:49 AM(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24074/thumb_IMG_20250307_121828350.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=358739) We were fortunate to get the heavy lifting done by the Corp of engineers. The large equipment made short work of tangles that could have been a real problem. It was great fun to watch!
Heavy machinery will solve a lot of problems. A grapple / thumb or winch cable will let you pull a tangled mess apart from a safe distance, so you can better see what you are dealing with. We don't always have that luxury. :wacky:
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on April 06, 2025, 04:40:08 PMAxle cut is a good name. I was told it was a "wheel cut", what's in a name? :wink_2:
This is mostly salvage type cutting so a little loss in value on the log is better than getting smashed. The only way to get your bar pinched is if there is compression force along the length of the log, but even they, some wedges in the first cuts should help you out. It's just another tool in the bag and rarely used but nice to know.
Many of these logs already have internal damage anyway. A lot of my salvage work just ends up going in to firewood.
I usually don't have a lot of trouble figuring out pure compression/tension situations. I do sometimes pinch a bar when there is a twist involved. In complicated or multiple tree situations, I do a fair number of parallel cuts partially through. As I make a second cut, I can usually see what's going on with the first cut.
If all possible, I start at the branch end frequently using a pole saw to clear things above head high. Partially broken limbs can be both a puzzle and a hazard whether up high or lower down. I try to be very careful on those so if they do spring, I'm somewhere else.