The Forestry Forum

Got a FB Messenger contact from a potential customer.  She wanted me to saw 2x6' from cedar logs - 10 logs up to 20' long, 7" to 20" in diameter.   

She asked could I do the job in an hour?  When I explained 10 cedar logs wouldn't be enough for a half day, my minimum charge, she wanted to negotiate my rates.   "Over budget" could I saw for less since she had to buy the logs. "Can't afford..."  "Your rate is too high!"  "I'll be a good customer."  "Can get you more business."  "I have to provide a helper?!?"  Blah, blah, blah...

After about 10 messages of her pleading her case, I simply said, "There's no way I can cut your 10 logs for less than my minimum charge."   Crickets....

I tried but I spent 5 minutes too long on her.  

Quote from: SawyerTed on April 28, 2025, 07:58:03 PM........ "Can't afford..."  "Your rate is too high!"  .......

She got me with that one. I think I would have responded "You may be right, I think you should go find a sawyer who's rate is acceptable to you." and at that point, be done with her. You have to know that no matter what you did for her she would not be happy in the end.... and neither would you. Sounds like the person with "the Highly Valuable Walnut tree". Same thing, different day. ffcheesy ffcheesy

I'm not happy after the messenger exchange.  Had to work too hard saying no.  

When selling campfire wood on facebook The more times they message and ask questions the less likely they are to buy

Some people would not be happy even if you hung them with a brand new rope. She is one of those, don't walk, run away. I try to avoid doing mental battle with unarmed people, it's like mud wrestling with a pig. She had a LOT of issues that were clear in her approach toward you which was clear warning enough.
I think we all try to take a little time to educate folks about how we operate our businesses and why our charges are as they are, but some people are programmed to get all they can from a deal in anyway they can. They try to make their problems YOUR problems. None of us should let ourselves be dragged down that road but any of us can get sucked in if we are not careful. I can almost guarantee that even if you made price concessions, when you arrived she would have more demands and more complaints. It would be a bad day. You read it right and sent her on her way. Be prepared, she may come back after she tries some other sawyers, so have a plan.
I have seen her 'type' a hundred times through 10 different businesses. They are never " a good customer', they never 'send a lot more business' and on EVERY job, they need a cost concession for some special reason saying 'they will make it up on the next one" but.... they never do.

    I do not negotiate.

    I tell them my rates and if they don't want to pay them it will not hurt my feelings one bit. I am crystal clear on my rates and what I provide and what they bring to the table.

     I always provide extra lumber when selling or extra services when sawing but I never negotiate. If they are super nice I may waive a mileage fee or a damaged band or such but I never negotiate my rates. I especially never negotiate after I have started or completed the sawing. If I switch from bf to hourly rate while in the middle of a job I advise them up front, get their concurrence before I start the change or I just don't saw that oddball piece for them. (BF for me is typically something like resawing a beam or such for them.)

    If a new or repeat customer brings me a single beam to square or resaw into a couple of boards I often just saw them at no charge and tell him we will make it up the next time he needs something sawed. Most of the time they will provide a tip. I have never lost money doing that.

I have never and will never negotiate my sawing rates.  Same thing with sawing on shares.  Nope, I saw for $$.

I virtually only saw bf, but I put my hourly rate on the sawing contract just in case it is needed to saw something odd ball.

I generally just say, "I think there's a sawmill down the road that will do it for that" and then they get excited and ask where it is and I say, "Oh, I have no idea, but I'm sure there is one somewhere, but it isn't here."  Actually, most times they laugh at that.    

Or I tell them I know a guy in Georgia who may do it, his name is Jake  @customsawyer and just call him up and tell him I sent you. Then I'll text Jake and tell him I landed a big job for him, and he should expect a call.   ffcheesy ffcheesy

I do have one elderly couple that has my number, whenever they show up to buy wood, they bring a steaming fresh flat of Krispy Kreme chocolate covered or jelly filled, or pink icing donuts Martha and I like.   And even though they have never asked for a discount, I give them one.  They are great people, and have been our customer for maybe 10 years.  

The only other time I will give discount is when a customer comes in to buy wood for a casket or urn for a family member or loved one. You can always tell if they are real, sometimes for the tears coming down their face.  I will always give them a discount, and if it's just an Urn, I usually give the wood to them for free.  I feel it gives me good Karma, and I can see they appreciate the gift in their time of grief.  Surprisingly, most times they won't even tell us what the wood is for, they are just privately grieving, but most times we can tell and it makes us feel better to maybe help them.  Those are pretty sad times.

  


       

YH and I have sent those kind of customers to each other for so long I think the word is starting to get out. I say that and we'll probably both get a couple of them today. The ones I don't like is when I send them to YH and then he sends them back. Dang it.

I got a smile out of you two breaking each other's stones.  :wink_2:

Woke up in the night with a question that defies my ability to comprehend. 

Why did she buy 10 cedar logs but not have a sawyer lined up? 

Either she is that flighty OR she never had logs and was doing research for a competitor.  One gives her the benefit of the doubt and one gives her too much credit.  ffcheesy

I agree Ted, it sounds suspicious. Either way, she's a problem - but not yours.

As you know I will occasionally saw a job Goodwill but it is because I want to, not at the instance of the customer.  My thought is that if I just do a discount, it is not a gift but just that; a discount.  If I do it for free, then it truly is a gift from the heart which is/was my intent.

I can think of four (4) this year.   

I'm glad I really don't have sawmill customers. The sawmill is my place to hide from the same types of stuff at my day job.  ffsmiley

Robert,

    Giving a discount for donuts is not negotiation, it is simply bartering one highly valuable commodity for another which is totally acceptable in WV and many other regions, especially the southern USA.

    On a good barter both parties get what the want/need and in the back of their head they may actually think they came out a little ahead in the process.

Often the customer is in need of an education. And I don't say that in a bad way, they don't know how the game is played yet. If they are ineducable, you must move them along and out of your life. I had one person ask for 1"x3"x6' fence boards. They could be 73" or 74" or so, but no longer, because he didn't want to pay for any extra. :uhoh:  I explained how 8' was the minimum commercial log length, but I'd try and help him out. I didn't tell him all I had in the yard was 12', and I was going to cut them in half anyway. He just didn't know custom sawing was different than a lumber yard. Next, he wanted 4.5"x4.5" posts, because you could only get 3.5"x3.5" or 5.5"x5.5" at the store.

Dave, yes.  Education is a big part of custom sawmill and portable sawing.  

A customer has to be receptive and most are.  Occasionally there's one who isn't.  

There's any number of discounts a fellow can apply.  Anything from veterans, for the disabled, friends and relatives, really good help, great logs, thanks for lunch, and even donuts discounts are possible and good reasons.

There's not a I feel sorry for you because you are dumb, cheap and ignorant on purpose discount. 

You can have discounts, or you can also have what a job bidder on an asphalt crew I worked with called the "weirdo price". In times when business was slow, he would bid jobs that he would typically walk away from because of the vibe the person gave him- but tack on 10, 20, 30% depending on his sense of trouble ahead.

One of the hardest things to do as a business, is to say NO to a potential customer. Especially when business is down, and the bills are due. I just suggest to them there are other mills out there to do their job, I'm not the only one.
I've worked with other businesses where all they did is say yes to every customer. This ends up where they are completely overloaded with work, and don't have staff to cover it. In the end everything ends up suffering because of it.
That's also where being your own boss has it's advantages. YOU decide who you take on as a client, and determine how much hassle you're getting into.

Many times here at Forestry Forum we have talked about Starvation Wages . . usually talking about pallet wood or railroad tie operations 
I used to work in a very busy auto parts store back in 1985 and people would be lined up waiting for parts because we were the biggest and the best store in the area . . we would laugh at people who wanted a Discount because everyone knew they paid a higher price to get good quality auto parts 

Then there's a PIA surcharge...

Years ago(seems like a whole other life) I was in the restaurant business and back then you'd always hear, The customer is always right.  I actually heard customers say it.   Well I never did run with the crowd well. My motto was the Customer is Usually right, but occasionally they are wrong and our free to go elsewhere.   My waitstaff liked me cause they knew I'd back them when we had one of those few bad ones.   I am sure we lost business but it was the ones we didn't really want.

I worked in a garage though HS & College. A guy bought a set of tires and came back complaining about a very slight vibration/wheel balance a couple times. On the last time my boss the owner ripped the weights off the wheels, handed him back the cash he paid and told him to never come back!  ffcheesy

Some times you just have to get even. I know someone who worked at a VW garage. A lady kept complaining about poor mileage. They made up some story about a test they could perform on her car, but she'd have to bring it in once a week. They just put a couple gallons of gas in. She had the best mpg ever. There was a flip side where they started sucking gas out, but I don't remember how that went. Then one of the guys involved cut his service managers desk on half with a chainsaw while he was sitting at it.

   The critical lesson is not to wait too long. I tell people my sawing is a cost neutral hobby - it pays for itself (and a little more) but I don't need it to live on and every job that is not fun is wasted time and effort for me. When I get that first vibe I cut them loose.

I had a guy ask about making a cabbage shredder for sauerkraut.  Given that I've never even seen one of these things before, and I told him so, it was going to cost him $200/hour (at the time, my shop sitting there with the lights off costs $130/hour) with a minimum of 4 hours + material.  For a moment I thought he was going to bite at that, but it was just him catching his breath after sitting down.  Turns out he could buy one at WalMart for $30 but thought he could get a higher quality for the same price.

I still don't know what a cabbage shredder looks like.

The cabbage shredder that I use is a trough with an angled knife blade, like an upside down wood planer. Put a head of cabbage in a box that slides over the knife blade and slices or shreds the cabbage.

On Amazon for something similar. 

cabbage shredder (https://www.amazon.com/Mandoline-Sauerkraut-Coleslaw-Protection-Pre-Oiled/dp/B00PL9EMM2/ref=sr_1_4_sspa?crid=KWH5XDAYHBH9&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.8xJ1fx6dB51aENtO3gK5CzgJ7YarGRQswWq69rSPXiIHfUOHn2bm2Von0go7Tx9XD-8JHr0-jbtLBpeAHzXFeOeqpnXvof8v6NwLCPXcjLG4dOvUfnVACUWI-yJBs450ukOGubhd0GE19yGkhJYSQ57udHBAjwLDMxERfALN3ET6uOgt7XCmGszpzeFEC0hE_Bz-J_SaKu7_u_NNnxiSEJFQSkGpw6_QaK9I1Wwf3OaOkvwfL9jSr64M6rra8QMJdT_slh1ou4KwvofdmRKgaPDmryW-RnvEy_wI-n9FcOs.nSYNAzlNxi5qyORw6ylGw7J1K5kXZTp1eaD6p2q-jxE&dib_tag=se&keywords=wood+cabbage+shredder&qid=1745981222&sprefix=wood+cabbage%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-4-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1)

The "I really don't want to do it price."  I tried that on a loft bed for my neighbors' daughter.  I figured my cost and time and added 1/3 for "I really don't want to do it" fees.  They agreed almost too enthusiastically!  

BTW, I still use the cabbage shredder my great grandfather made.  It really is nothing more than a stationary planer knife and a sliding box that hold a head of cabbage.  We still use it to make sauerkraut.  I also have the clay pots they used.  We pack ours in canning jars.  

Quote from: SawyerTed on April 30, 2025, 04:49:18 AMThe "I really don't want to do it price."  I tried that on a loft bed for my neighbors' daughter.  I figured my cost and time and added 1/3 for "I really don't want to do it" fees.  They agreed almost too enthusiastically!  

There are jobs like that, where they want something custom and better than construction 4x2s bolted together. It might only be 5% of your leads, but if you can do it, and they are willing to pay, then build the beds and collect the $$. 

The ones you avoid is the "I can get this for $200 from Ikea, will you do it cheaper? 

That's a simple nope. 

Competing with another's sawyers sawing rates is a race to the bottom.

Yes, I have "lost" a few jobs to other sawyers.  My statement to lost customers is that "he knows what his sawing is worth, and so do I".

I encourage potential customers to let me know if they decide to not saw or use another sawyer so that I can scratch their name off of my schedule.  I can generally tell from the conversation who will saw and who will not.

A little off topic but related.  Where I grew up there was a shop that did drive shaft modifications.  They were the best in town.  A man dropped off a drive shaft and when he came to pick it up he balked at the price.  He only said he would pay about half the amount.  The owner said fine, just a minute.  The owner took the drive shaft in the back and cut it in half.  He hand the pieces back to the "customer" and said "You pay for half a job, you get half a job, now get out"

Doug in SW IA

   We always get back to food now it is cabbage shredders. I have a big Hobart commercial shredder I bought by mistake a few years ago I need to take back to the flea market the next time I go. I bought it as a meat grinder but once I got to looking at it closer I realized what it really was and have not used it yet. 

Doug, I like your story about the drive shaft. I could easily see the same for a stack of lumber if such post completion negotiations occurred.

A couple of sayings from the old vet we bought our practice from have always stuck with me, and have been represented here;

If you don't like what you are doing, you aren't charging enough.

And;

In your career, you will spend 95% of your time worrying about the 5% of your clients that you should have already ran off!!!

Doc

When the same customer sends me three emails in a row, with the second and third literally asking if I got the first email, and they were all only a 5 seconds apart, and in no email do they ever actually ask what they want specifically, except "Do you sell lumber?" which, of course, is specifically says on our web page where they sent the email from.  That's a quick hit on the delete key.

Or the potential customer who calls up and leaves a voicemail, and before even asking me for what they want, gives me a lecture that voicemail is not done anymore, it's impolite, and old school, and I should employ an automated answering service.  And yet on the voicemail, they never get around to asking specifically what they want, just a "Call me back as soon as possible, it's important."  Yeah, nope, delete.

Or the ones who call up, don't give me their name, but have their phone number blocked so I can't see who they are, and ask me I got their last message.  I say I don't even know who you are, so nope, if you block your number from me, then your number gets blocked by me, and so your last message went right into the Spam folder.  Can't have it both ways. 

Or the ones that drive up out of the blue, and say, "I need a deal, your lumber is too expensive."  



     

All of them, and don't forget the guy who rings up every 6 months or so and asks if we sell ply, just in case the answer has changed since last time.
Then there's the guy who rings up and wants a price on whatever but won't supply contact details... he's just fishing for the competition trying to figure out what I'm quoting on a real job.
Also the other guy who needs this in a hurry and then never shows to collect.
But my favourite is the guy who wanted me to saw on shares... well I got a small fortune tied up in a sawmilling operation and you've got a couple of trees, what's a fair split?

Or, do I have old and junk lumber I can get cheap.
ffcheesy ffcheesy 
No, all that goes in the chipper. ffcheesy Can you save me some?  No. ffcheesy ffcheesy   

A bad storm went through Tuesday. I've been getting calls to come clean up fallen yard trees. I can have the log if I clean everything up. Hard pass

@DocGP  yep I hear you.    ffsmiley

I didn't know voicemail was outdated....

Several years ago I went to a local tractor used parts/salvage yard.  They specialized in blue tractor parts but had a few red ones and even fewer green ones.  I was getting red parts.

I was behind a guy at the counter who wanted to negotiate the price on some high demand blue (Ford) tractor part.   It may have been a starter or maybe a diesel injection pump, I don't recall. 

Guy:  How much is this?

Owner, checked his price sheet said: $$$ (whatever the price was). 

Guy: Will you take $$$ (about half)

Owner:  No

Guy:  Will you take 75%?

Owner takes the part off the counter:  That's no longer for sale

Owner looked at me:  Are you with him?

Me:  Heck no!  Never seen him before. 

Owner:  That will be $$ for your parts. 

Me:  Gee thanks.  That's about half of what I expected! 

The scratch and spit crowd gathered by the pot belly stove had stopped telling lies and were listening.  The whole place broke up.  The negotiator guy was still standing there speechless!   ffcheesy

I've mentioned my negotiating tactic on here before:

Them: how much for "x"?
Me: $1/ft.
Then: can you do any better? 
Me:  $1.25/ft.
Them: how is that better? 
Me: is better for me. 
Them: ok I'll do $1/ft
Me: no, it's $1.25 now. Bye! 

Some people are just _____________!

My wife and I were splitting block in the wood lot and sweating buckets on a hot day, when a guy riding by on his motorcycle stops. I pop the helmet and ear muffs off, walk over to the fence and he asks me 
Him: "How much for a cord?"
Me: "$### delivered locally"
Him:  "$###! You're kidding. My buddy and I sell it for (about half) delivered"
Me: "I'll take 20 cord if you can deliver today"
Him: "Vroooom!"

Funny thing - he was in such a hurry to get out of there, he stalled twice getting going.

You could have been the Amazon of firewood!  ffcheesy

Yeah I've dealt with those sellers before in my area. I was starting to think I should have them deliver 10-20 cords to resell, until I figured out that their advertised "cord" was actually  little over half of that. So they were actually selling their wood for more than everyone else. 

Maybe I should've bought a few loads, and then called the Weights and Measures Department😊

BB, that was my first thought, as well. How big is their cord?

Quote from: PAmizerman on May 01, 2025, 06:50:56 AMA bad storm went through Tuesday. I've been getting calls to come clean up fallen yard trees. I can have the log if I clean everything up. Hard pass

You don't want logs full of metal that you have to spend more getting than they're worth?   ffcheesy

I had a guy to call yesterday.  He had about 80 Pine "logs", 20' length and 8"-20" diameter.  That ain't logs, that is pulp wood.

I had to tell him no and then explain why.  Plantation Pine trees with 1/2"+ growth rings will not saw and produce anything close to usable lumber.  He was disappointed but we both would have been had I attempted to saw what he had.  Sometime the best response is to just say no.

The conversation never even got to sawing rates. 

I had a couple call about some nice walnut, do I have 6/4x10" x 12' long. The conversation went back and forth with the man and I , his wife would interject , I think they were in a car driving. The man was more concerned on the quality of the walnut boards as he had contracted to build a 11' long table. The walnut was what I would consider FAS, clear and straight for the 12' length. he said great I'll be up Monday to look and buy it. 
His wife calls me on Monday asking if I'm there and then how much is the Walnut? $14.50 a bd ft same as what I told you on Friday. She tells me that I am priced to high and she can get it 2hrs away for $9.50 a bd ft. well then she should go there, and she chirps a bit more , and I hang up on her. She txt me and ask, did you just hang up or did our call drop? I said I hung up , I gave you my price and you didn't like it. I'm not wasting any more time. She then proceeds to berate me with a whole Bunch of txt messages. Her husband then calls and knows my price is good if the lumber is good, and asks if he can come, I told him, don't bring your wife  with you.
They never did come.

I never take it personally if someone wants to haggle on price, provided that its not done in a disrespectful manner. I've already got a tiered pricelist..  wholesale/trade/retail (based on order size/ sales volume)... so I can look at an enquiry and depending on the specifics I may or may not be open to adjustments. I know what my margins are and I know how much I can shave off list price and still make a profit.

I know more or less what I have in stock and more importantly I know what moves and what doesn't. Some stuff turns over regularly, some shifts in large volume or hardly at all, some I only carry because it's a by-product of cutting other orders or just because it doesn't hurt to have a few lying around. Being the default go-to for sizes the hardware and building stores don't carry in stock is halfway to being the go-to for all a customer's needs.

Case in point is cutting an order for 16' 6x3's. Part of that is we end up with a stack of shorter ones due to fault docking. I don't mind having a few in stock but mostly 6x3's are on the move in bulk or hardly at all list so if a guy walks in and wants a pack of 10 footers I'm happy to see him. He gets 10% off list. I get 20% more than sending it to a  wholesaler. Now had I not been sitting on a pile of them I'd not have been open to negotiation and it would have been list price or walk... but I was and he asked so we did.  He thinks I'm a great guy and will be back, I think he took a nuisance out of my life and turned it into money which can be turned into beer... everyone is a winner.

Thing being it was a respectful ask and no would have been an acceptable answer. When people get rude or demanding or entitled about it  - or just plain stupid lowball - I can get pretty abrupt myself. But I'm always mindful of being able to catch more flies with honey than vinegar and I'm also mindful of the fact that I need to sell wood to keep a roof over my head, so I try not to let my temper control my mouth. I think that means must be starting to grow up . ffcheesy

I weed them out on marketplace.  When they ask a question.  I reply Yes and say email me at xxxxx@xxx.
Once they email me, as I ask what are you looking for.  When they reply, I tell them to call me and give my number.  The ones that want it wind up calling me or me them.
Had one guy that makes pine porch raised planters.  He kept asking for lower prices, as he needed to make a profit.  Don't thkink I will hear from him again.

There is nothing wrong with him making a profit, but his profit does not need to come from your profit.  :uhoh:

I get some of the same questions so many times I have these canned answers, it's almost a reflex.  Sometime people laugh, sometimes they don't, but as soon as they ask, I lose interest in them.    

Them: "I know what the price list says, but what is your bottom dollar?"  Me: "What it says on the price list, that's why I spent all that money on paper to print it out."

Them: "Why does the lumber cost that much, don't people just give you the logs for free?" Me: "No, do people give you logs for free?"

Them: "I just do woodworking as a hobby, don't you have any free wood?" Me: "Sure, it's over there in the burn pit, it's still smoking, and if you fall in while you are getting it, I will just cover you up and sell your car, which one is it?"

Them: "Why won't you deliver it?"  Me: "Why won't you come pick it up?"

Them:  "I'm retired, I can't afford to pay much for wood, what can you do for me?" Me: "If you don't have any money, maybe you should go ask for your old job back."

Them: "Do you ever put anything on sale?"  Me: "Sure, yesterday we had 50% off, you just missed it."

And my personal favorite, "I don't have any credit cards, I don't have any cash, will you take a personal check?"  Me: "Uh No, but does your wife have any cash? She is standing right there."

There are some that is just looking for something for nothing.
If they are selling it, it's worth top dollar. If you are selling the same thing to them, it's worth bottom dollar.

I've had some that would ask me about sawing for them when we had the green house-veggie business.
I do not saw for others, just for me. 
Just like the past post posts, they keep asking!! I come out with some stupid high price and that shuts them up!!!

I know the above won't work if you are sawing for money.

Quote He kept asking for lower prices, as he needed to make a profit. 

That's where if they are selling it on the market for a higher price, I will sell it myself for that full price. ffsmiley

QuoteThem: "Do you ever put anything on sale?"  Me: "Sure, yesterday we had 50% off, you just missed it."

Kind of like the old bar sign: "Free beer tomorrow".
Guy comes back the next day expecting free beer. 
Owner says: "Nope, sign says tomorrow". ffcheesy

I know it's a lost cause when the first question they ask is "do you have any more pictures"

some of my experiences:

"need 5m long boards", me: what do you need them for?
"i make a 1m high fence and i will cut 5 boards out of them!?  :huh? :huh? headscratch :shocked2: 

the 5m long board cost twice what the 5x 1m boards cost

"why?? i thought one board is cheaper than 5!!"  fudd-smiley



then i had a subcontractor ask me, " do you know how to read a plan? we need to get the total m2 out of it for the teak ceilings"

yes i know how to read a plan, but of course a huge red flag came up. i still did it for him, took me an hour and turned out to be 350m2 (3800 sqft) which is a pretty big order. knowing that i did the work for him and that he now has the total m2 to get quotes from other suppliers.
the guy did buy some orders from me in the past so what the heck.

he came back: kinda high price for you lumber but the client is asking for premium tyg and i know your lumber is high quality. me: yeah, that's my price!
last week i heard back from him that his customer confirmed the order and he will receive advance payment in 2 weeks.
we will see, but it's a 12k $ tyg order so it's worth the extra work. 

My son got a call yesterday on his firewood number.
"Do you have any slab wood?"
" As it happens, I have a pile by the sawmill, maybe half a pickup load"
"How much?"
"You can have it for free, just come and get it".  
"Is that all you have, I'm looking for a lot more"
"I'm in the firewood business, not the slab business, so no. These just happen to be here now." (We'd just cut the framing lumber for his bunkie build
"Will you deliver it?"
CLICK!

Quote from: YellowHammer on May 04, 2025, 09:17:49 AMAnd my personal favorite, "I don't have any credit cards, I don't have any cash, will you take a personal check?"  Me: "Uh No, but does your wife have any cash? She is standing right there."

I was at a formal function in the state capital, tuxedos and evening gowns.  Emily and I were invited by the state superintendent of schools who we both had known for many years.   Some of her staff we didn't know so well.

One of the staff who didn't know us well was taking photos and asked me to get my wife for the photo.  "Um, aaahhh she's not here," I said.  

Staff person says, " That's her in the blue gown isn't it?" It was but I didn't say so. 

Me:  "Oh no.  She's my date.  Do me a favor and don't mention this to my wife and don't take any photos of us" me pointing at Emily. 

The lady's face was priceless!  

Later I noticed the staff lady talking to the state superintendent, pointing at Emily and I.   The superintendent confirmed that indeed the lady in the blue dress was my wife, Emily.  She was MAD!

The staff lady immediately went to Emily and told her that I claimed she was "just" my date.  Emily looked her and said, " Well I AM his date."

Later on the staff member and I buried the hatchet, became friends and still laugh about that.  

Quote from: Magicman on May 02, 2025, 08:25:59 AMI had a guy to call yesterday.  He had about 80 Pine "logs", 20' length and 8"-20" diameter.  That ain't logs, that is pulp wood.

I had to tell him no and then explain why.  Plantation Pine trees with 1/2"+ growth rings will not saw and produce anything close to usable lumber.  He was disappointed but we both would have been had I attempted to saw what he had.  Sometime the best response is to just say no.

The conversation never even got to sawing rates.

I think this answers a question of mine about my red pine NOT curving like a banana.   Though mine where planted all together in a 2+ acre patch, they where never thinned and have grown slow.   I think my biggest ring is about 3/16 and most being under an 1/8 inch..     Thank you Magicman

These days I tend to try and give up on a potential customer as soon as possible. If they are real persistent, show promise of good behavior, and maybe bribe me with donuts, I might give them a chance. ffcheesy 

Anytime anyone acts like they are doing me a favor by being my customer, it's over. I grew up on a dairy farm, being broke comes as natural to me as swimming does to a fish.

Quote from: PAmizerman on May 04, 2025, 11:20:34 AMI know it's a lost cause when the first question they ask is "do you have any more pictures"

I had my backhoe on mp. I put up 18 pictures in the add. One guy says " can you send me more pictures?" NO!

yesterday, guy calls." I've 8 thousand feet of logs, i expect 10 thousand feet of sawn lumber out of the pile. Im third generation sawyer i know. "  oh boy.  " How much a ft to saw it? " .xx cents per foot. " thats twice as much as I ever paid."  why don't you have that guy do it?  "He's outta business."  I couldn't hang up fast enough.

At least you didn't get a lecture from your customer on economics.  "It's better for the machine to run at a lower rate than sit.  Blah blah blah economics 101 blah blah."

My response was similar to yours, "if you can get somebody to saw at the rate you want to pay, you need to do it quickly!  I can't compete at that rate.  I would be sawing at a loss, I'm not doing that.  Economics 101 says it's better to lose a little bit sitting still than lose a lot operating at a loss."

About 4 or 5 days later he called back wanting me to saw for him.  He did ask if there was anything HE could do to lower my rate.  I explained his best option was to have good help to keep up, have logs ready, have a cut list and adequate equipment to move logs.  Make sure I'm not having to handle logs, lumber, slabs. Use a chainsaw or anything but operate the mill.  

He finally agreed to my rate, had his ducks in a row and we had a really good day!  At the end of the day he commented that he got more and better lumber than the lower rate guy.  It's cliche but I reminded him that you get what you pay for usually.  

One of the biggest obstacles that I had to overcome when I first started sawing was the bad reputation of "Mizer Lumber". 

   One of my first jobs this year was sawing 8,000 bf of pine into mostly framing lumber. Other than being 75 miles away it was a dream job with plenty of good help, friends folks, lunch included, etc.

   This guy has been calling me for 18 months and I had long given up on it ever happening but he was just slow getting his logs set and kept checking to see if I was still interested. I get lots of such calls that never materialize. He did not try to dicker or get a lower price so sometimes a suspect job works out. I still don't negotiate my prices. I may give discounts for good set up and nice people to work with but caving in up front is a bad mistake and one I just don't make.

Quote from: teakwood on May 04, 2025, 11:24:03 AMthe guy did buy some orders from me in the past so what the heck.

he came back: kinda high price for you lumber but the client is asking for premium tyg and i know your lumber is high quality. me: yeah, that's my price!
last week i heard back from him that his customer confirmed the order and he will receive advance payment in 2 weeks.
we will see, but it's a 12k $ tyg order so it's worth the extra work. 

Because you had some positive history with the client, it was worth the investment of that hour, even if getting the order was a 50/50 thing. Getting a random inquire like that would be a different thing, as it's a much higher chance of it being a "tire kicker". 

Being helpful that like, to the clients you wish to keep, builds up the "goodwill" towards your business. 

I've worked for years in the local IT industry, and we will often spend time scoping out solutions to meet customer needs. Sometimes that work is charged as "consulting", other times it's written of as cost of preparing a quote. But what we end up recommending / selling will work, because we put in that research first, and so we keep those loyal clients. Others just go out and buy whatever, and then call us when things don't work... If we can help, we do, and charge them for the service, but we don't go out of our way to fix their mistakes. 

I've been looking after some of our IT clients since the 80s, and while the original owners have retired or passed away, I'm still the "IT Guy" that comes in to fix / install their gear. 

I'll do a take-off from plan if I have to, or farm it out to an estimator if it's not pretty straight forward.
What I won't do anymore though is itemise that quote. No so many this size so many that size, no this many meters of this and this many meters of that.
Customer details... job details... $$$ including tax.

Yanno I've had a few buck and squeal over that, expecting me to send them back an itemised list. But it's one of those things I've learnt to be completely unyielding on.... you want the itemised list you pay for it. Estimators here run at $80-100 an hour and I am a slow estimator, should have paid a professional and brought me a list.ffcheesy

    I sometimes get potential customers who call me and want to know the price to buy or have me saw for them. If they have a cut list and want to call it off to me over the phone and I will plug their sizes and quantities into an excel spread sheet I have on my laptop. As soon as they finish calling in the last number and I type it in the spreadsheet does the math and I can tell them exactly what that much lumber or sawing will cost. I'll tell them the only unknowns, if I am sawing at their site, is mileage and blade fees if I hit metal in their logs.

    I had one customer ask me how much it would cost for me to saw his logs to build cabins he was going to build and rent out. I asked him for his cut list and he wanted me to make one. I told him I could not do that because I did not know if he wanted 2X8 or 2X10 for floor joist, 2X4s or 2X6 for framing, what size or pitch to the roof etc. He did not know either. I told him call me back when he did. I have not heard back from him since.

    I don't mind helping but I am not going to do his work for him.

Surprising how often I get asked how many rafters do you think I need, how many floor joists will it take or should I use 2x6s or 2x8s and so many other "how do I build it?" questions. 

Depending upon the customer we might have a lesson in calculating what they need. Often it's right there with the mill setup and logs waiting - done so at my hourly rate. 

I very regularly get questions about how many studs are needed.  ffsmiley

I've got a few sets of the more common span tables on the office PC although I make a point to always say "well I'm not an engineer or builder but the span table says..." All care, no responsibility etc etc.

Yanno I don't mind helping people and I've been at this long enough that I don't often have to consult a table anyway, this is that knowing what size and length combinations move and which don't thing. And mostly I work on the principle that my customers pay for the wood and the expertise can come for free. 

Slightly off topic but potential customers are the least of my headaches lately. I've had 2 occasional customers file for bankruptcy in as many months, I haven't been stung yet for anything substantial but I tell ya it's a worry. Potential customers are just nuisance  value compared to the ones who owe you money.

Quote from: Magicman on May 07, 2025, 10:03:20 PMI very regularly get questions about how many studs are needed.  ffsmiley

MM, I would tell them just one. ME.

LL,

   Customers owing me money is not an issue as my policy is payment on receipt for lumber and upon completion for sawing work. My customers are typically individuals and occasionally a small local business and they are not the ones who get themselves into a bankruptcy situation.

My former job, not sawmilling, required 50% to get on the schedule, remainder on completion, and I suspect the business was designed to just about run at the 50% down.

I ask for %10 down as it deters people from calling last minute and cancelling. In the beginning I had a few of those, as I suspect they would come across someone who would undercut me. 

50% up front before i even turn on a planer or moulder, 50% before the final product leaves my sawmill! 

That's how it is in Costa Rica and i like it that way, i have been burnt before.
I do have some repeating customers who can pay later.

I do have a pretty nice chunk of second quality tyg with defects so i want to sell it for cheap to people who can not afford premium teak. so i posted a add on marketplace for 10$/m2.

i hate facebook because 90% of the ones who write you are idiots.

the worst one till today: "i need to do a floor, do you give discount??"

he doesn't even know what 10$/m2 stands for and is asking for a discount. and no, you can not use 1/2" tyg for flooring  :uhoh:

Teak,

   When the guy asked "Do you give discounts" I'd probably have replied "Yes but only to my friends and I don't even like you."

Do you give a discount?  

That's not for sale anymore.  

Normally the customer and I both laugh when they ask for a Veteran discount. I explain that I am one, are they going to pay extra. 

I'm not sure I'm going to give up on this one, but I just got called by a customer a few minutes ago and this is the exact conversation:

Phone rings
Me - The Consummate Professional: "Hello, This is Hobby hardwood, may I help you?"
 
Him - The New Potential Customer: "HI, I need some wood to replace some boards in my cabinets.  Do you have any?"

Me, - The Unflappable Professional:  "Yes, sure, we have 56 species, what kind do you need?"

Him:  "I don't know, don't you?  They are old"

You can't make this stuff up.

You should have replied "Its your lucky day! I have lots of old wood!"

Set the hook and reel him in.
 Tell him to bring a board and you will help him match it up from your extensive inventory. He doesn't sound like a PITA, just somebody in need of education.

The cabinet wood might not be one those 56 species... it could be cut from the plywood species. ffcheesy

But OLD plywood. ffcheesy

Sounds like it might be old-growth luan to me.

Painted wormy American Chestnut cabinets came to mind.  

I'm thinking $200 per board foot ebony.  

ffcool     $$$$$$$$

root ball veneer!

I get a few calls from people that need to replace cedar siding on their house.  I ask is it western or eastern.  They don't know.  Send a pic of both sides and fresh cut end.
When they do, I can either help them or send them hunting western red cedar.
I know, I know, educating the ignorant one person at a time.

Quote from: Cedarman on May 13, 2025, 07:33:31 AMI get a few calls from people that need to replace cedar siding on their house.  I ask is it western or eastern.  They don't know.  Send a pic of both sides and fresh cut end.
When they do, I can either help them or send them hunting western red cedar.
I know, I know, educating the ignorant one person at a time

Sooo educate the ignorant. What's the difference and which is better? I'm familiar with WRC,  don't know the Eastern at all

Eastern Red Cedar small logs average 7" that we saw.  5" to about 16", but few of those.  pinkish red hearwood very rot resistant, creamy sapwood, not rot resistant. Rather knotty wood.  West is brownish tan large trees up to 15 , 18' diameter.  Lots of clear wide wood and big long beam are possible.  light weight, not too rot resistant if new growth.  Lots of houses sided with it and some decks.  Noxious sawdust.  ERC may irritate but not noxious. These are basics.
People with house siding have wide boards, 10" or so and clear.  Some are shiplap and some are beveled, some are rectangular.  We make a good bit of beveled ERC siding 6" and 7" mostly.

ERC is really a juniper and the redcedar is all one word.  unrelated species.  Town/city in LA named after it after the French discovered it (for themselves) meaning red stick.  grows like weeds here and thus the business of clearing it from cattle grasslands and making great stuff like Cedarman and OK mulch do.

Juniperus virginiana - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_virginiana)

Eastern red cedar is also sought after for it's aromatic quality. Preferred wood for paneling closets to deter bugs (and keep your socks smelling fresh). ffsmiley

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48503/IMG_3794.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=359281)

Western Red Cedar beveled siding.  It's relatively soft, brittle but weather resistant.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48503/IMG_3793.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=359280)
Eastern red cedar - Virginia Cedar.  This is closet lining.