The Forestry Forum

Hi there,
I own large acreages that are never cut prime forest. Heavy white cedar density and ridiculous quality. The cedar is selling for $1000/1000MBF ($1 per foot) currently at mills within 45 minutes to an hour from my properties.
I approached someone who was in forestry in another field and wanted to get into logging and offered them a 50/50 split of all profits (so after trucking costs)from the timber on my land. High end veneer sugar maple, all the white cedar which is all together and the "fish board" stuff.
The only issue with my property is that it's in a trail (already cut and open and skidder makes it all the way no issues) that's about 6km (or 4 miles) from the trucking landing.
Apparently after speaking with other loggers he wants a 70/30 split after trucking in his favour.
Am I a jerk for offering 50/50 thinking that was more than fair and thought it would help him launch his logging company so we could negotiate a better rate for me later, or is 70/30 to the logger "normal".
I feel bad if I was the jerk, but I kind of feel a little blindsided by changing the terms of our agreed upon deal after he had already started cutting and not selling the cuts until this chat.
Please let me know, and don't hold back. If I am a jerk for offering 50/50 and not 70/30 or if I am a bonehead for considering 70/30 after expenses in loggers favour.
Thank you!

First, welcome to the forum! We hope you enjoy your time here and become a participating member.

Second, lets get started on the right foot. Posting the exact same question in 3 different forum sections is considered rude at best, and against the rules at worst. Please do not do that! One post is suffrutescent for the people who have interest and knowledge in the subject to find it and respond if they chose. And no, you cannot delete those other threads now, only a moderator can do that. I responded to this one because it is in the correct forum section.

As far as your question goes. Are you working with a consulting forester as most folks would? Do you have a signed contract with this logger? Who is paying the loggers operating expenses? Do those expenses come out of the sale before profit? If he has to pay those expenses from his share of the sale, then he is really not getting a 50/50 split, is he?

 SO it's probably too late to do it the right way and find a forester who can negotiate a signed contract for you as well as supervise the cut including cleanup and mitigation work. But depending of the details, perhaps there is a little room to negotiate the arrangement before it gets worse.

 More information is needed hear before the more experienced folsk chime in with their thoughts.

It's really hard to say. I will say that landowners often don't realize the costs in logging, and a 3-4 mile skid would add a huge amount to his cost.

If y'all had a 50/50 deal upfront, then no you aren't a jerk.  He may be if he's holding the logs as ransom.  I'd stop the harvest right now, tell him to sell what's been cut and show you the tickets for a 50/50 split.  I'm not big on selling timber on shares but it you do, the loggers should settle up each week and not hold logs.  That's a good way to find yourself without timber or the money that should have come your way.

If he had been upfront and sold the wood already cut and come to you saying he couldn't make it at 50/50, then it's time for a discussion.  As it is, I think you are better off breaking the business relationship now before it gets worse.  Find another logger who is more honest with you.

jonesy_007, I am trying to catch up and clean up your multiple posts of the same subject and you are posting faster than I can keep up. Don't post the same topic in multiple boards, that is against Forum rules. 

First off, my apologies for the 3 posts. I was under the impression that some people simply live in one section of the forum and may not look in others.
Not knowing where the question was best asked, I assumed asking in the forums that looked most appropriate. Rude, was certainly not my intention at all.
Second, I appreciate the feedback and will work on keeping it in a single forum.
It was literally a copy and paste to the forums I thought might be relevant and if people didn't want to read they would skip over.
Lesson learned and feel like crap for bothering all of you
Thank you.

This is a reply to old greenhorn about more information. The timber to be cut is about 5 million MBF of cedar alone. So, that would be $2.5M each. That's on 200 acres. So, not very far to go and the cedars are all together doing a 30-50 acre clear cut and a grid cut north / south on 100 acres and east / west on the other 100 acres.
I am not sure if this helps at all.
Thank you

No need to feel like crap about, it was just a heads up😊

Agreed, don't feel like crap, it was just an entry level mistake. All good now and it's forgotten, lets move on.

You don't mention but the loggers costs are unclear here. Are they deducted before the profit is figured, or is he carrying his costs using his cut of the sale?
 A 4 mile skid will add a lot of fuel cost and time to the job.

   I've got nothing to do with logging or selling timber but nobody changes the rates on me after we start a job. I'd tell him to comply with the original terms or pack up his stuff and leave immediately.

Yes, the loggers cost would be included in their share of the 50/50 but the trucking costs are deducted. I have been in business a really long time and have always felt as though I have been very fair with my employees and subcontractors. I am new to logging and doing the math, he has told me he can pull 3 loads a week on his own. Fuel costs are about $1,000 per week 60 hours of work (skidder and saw). So, I am trying to figure out at 3 loads, sharing $10,000 per minus trucking of about $500 so $9,500/2 =$4,750.00 each minus his $1000 in costs (I shouldn't need to concern myself with broken equipment costs etc as no other industry would factor that in to a job as there's no way to know where the machine was compromised). He is getting $13,500 a week minus $1000 in fuel ($12,500 per week). Now, he hires a few guys and runs skidder all day instead of taking out loads here and there he could get to 5 loads a week. Maybe I have run so many different businesses and never expected the owner to cover my operating costs... that's why I am a little lost.

I am getting near the extent of my working knowledge here, but as we develop this picture better others that so this work everyday will chime in with more pointed comments.
 In the meantime and with all honesty I have to point out that you seem to be oversimplifying the loggers cost structure. It's true you cannot cover nor anticipate his breakdowns, that's not your problem. However there is no functional logger that I have ever met that does not include a certain average overhead cost for operating his/her equipment as well as it's overall cost. They don't bring in a $100k piece of equipment to do your work for free. They have transportation costs just to get the gear on site and there are things that will happen and wear out such as belts and hoses. Changing ut a couple of hoses on a feller buncher can cane well over 8 grand, and that is routine maintenance. Rarely are there breakdowns that cost less the 5 figures on big equipment. That has to be factored in somehow or the logger will be bankrupt in no time.
 So to just consider fuel costs is a bit naive' if you ask me. I'm not criticizing, just making a point here. Still it is unfortunate that work was begun before a final deal was truck and written down. I sure hope you had a clearer understanding about the condition he will leave your property in when he leaves.
 Best of luck, let's see what the big boys have to say here.

Hi, and welcome.
For me, when I make a deal, that's it. If they walk away, it's on them. When the other guy wants to talk about price after the work starts, I show them the gate. A big red flag!! If he doesn't know what to change for his work he doesn't know the forestry laws, I bet. If he makes a mess he will walk leaving you with the bill and mess.
If it were me, I'd send him down the road.

Best of luck.

Thank you so much for your feedback. I agree on all points. I am at a point where he wants 70 points because of expenses and potential expenses. To be honest I can buy a skidder, pay for all the costs (fuel, maintenance, breaks) and offer the opposite split is how I feel. At $2.5 million in revenue to the logger at 50/50 over 2 years (1 guy no team), I can't foresee any situation or costs that make sense for me to give up 20 percent or $1M for expenses or expected expenses. I am just confused. He could literally buy all new equipment if it all broke and still make a million dollars a year.
It's all hypothetical but if I assumed all risk, hired him to cut on a 30% split he would be making (on his calculations of 30,000 MBF a week) $9,000 a week at 60 hours. That's $150 an hour. I think that's outrageous but a more reasonable approach than a split where I am giving up a million dollars over 2 years. I see the "expenses" discussion as a red herring and feel a little blindsided.

I want to add this in as well. I really wanted to help this guy out. I had a large company offer me 40% (it wasn't exactly that) but they offered me $4000 per 1000 MBF which at this point equals 40%. It's a large company. I always try to support the little guy. This other company is a mill so they will make way more on it than the logger in question. Saying that, they gave me a 7 week timeline of completion and payment up front. I really like this guy, and he has been through a lot and want to help him out but this will take him two years so for that I moved to 50/50 from a 40/60 from the big firm essentially for the increased time. I actually felt like I was doing him a favour. That's why I asked am I a jerk? I feel bad, but I can't see a scenario where this guy doesn't become a millionaire from being almost broke because of my offer... just lost. I don't want to crush another little guy and sell to a conglomerate but I am getting less now and it's taking 14 times as long 😔

Im a little unclear on whether hes started the work or if your still negotiating a contract for the work.

Cutting on shares or percentages after trucking is a very common way of doing things here. Like others have mentioned there is many factors that go into negotiating a percent split. Truck acess, skid length, quality of wood, terrain, distance to mill etc. Etc. Etc.

I have cut some really nice wood for a 60/40 split my way and some junk for 50/50 its all job dependant.

I will speak to a few points you have raised. grossing 150$/hr isnt remotely outragous for this line of work and 1 million dollars doesnt go very far buying new logging equiptment. There are massive overheads associated with this 
work. I had a bad breakdown the other week and spent 8k$ and grossed 1k$. Those costs need to be covered somehow. Suggesting that you could purchase a skidder and do the work youself for more money is ignoring the fact that this is skilled work and takes a lot of experience and knowledge to do succesfully.

I would strongly reccomend involving a consulting forester to manage this sale and find a logging company that works best for you.

  Its nice to help the small guy but he may be small because he is not very efficient. Don't punish the big guy who got big through hard work, being honest and doing what he promised while still working smarter than others. JMHO.

Hi again,
We started on a hand shake deal and he was super excited for 50/50.
So, a couple loads are waiting to be delivered but then I got the call "I talked to other loggers and I should be getting 70/30".
When I said $150 an hour as outrageous if you read the message it says I take on ALL operating costs (buy a skidder, pay for fuel, maintenance, repairs etc...) and reverse the split to 70/30 for me. So the logger has no unforeseen expenses or any expenses other than time and labour.
I am starting to feel like I should back away and unleash the big company.
I don't like that but I feel like this may crush this little guy. Saying that, I didn't change the terms.

I guess the question isn't now if I am a jerk for offering and agreeing to a 50/50 split. My word is my bond and I never break it, so that's on them.
The question now is do I even bother negotiating or just walk away from this guy?
I can have a cheque for $2,000,000 in my hand June 1st and the big company is off my property by end of July and I can do what I want to do building whitetail habitat or, try and discuss this with someone who has changed their mind and will take "hopefully" no more than 2 years to get $2,500,000 at 50/50 split. I can make another million off the $2,000,000 in a two years very easily and actually be ahead but again I want to help this guy but I can't just throw a million dollars in the toilet....

For me this is a simple discussion so will try to put it in as simple language as possible. In my area I sell what I cut to a log buyer right off the landing. They have their own trucks & I receive a check that very day. I cash it and take 50 percent, the land owner gets the other 50 percent. If I'm the land owner ( as often) I take 100. The adjoining properties I cut I give them the "land owner 50 percent. The loggers I have dealt with are pretty much the same. When I cut off property, it's the still the same formula, 50/50, sell off the landing & payout. The only thing that can tweak the 50/50 is if it's a real risky felling & skidding hill side type thing or conversely simple & close to the landing work. And if it's junk wood or soft wood, then someone else needs to do it. This is Central New York & Hardwood. Also saw logging & not mechanical which has an entirely different business model around here. I can't speak to that. AND the pricing usually averages around a buck a board ft.

    I would immediately tell the guy "Since you are no longer satisfied with our agreement I hereby release you from your obligation. Please remove your equipment immediately as I have another contractor coming in this week to take over."

    Him talking to others and no longer being willing to honor his agreement is his mistake. I have made many commitments that I later regretted but I honored them then learned from the experience for the next time. 

Must have some good trees for $2,000.000

Actually, to the "must have some good trees for $2,000,000". I do. And they are very densely located. Other than the 4 mile skid this is a unicorn of a job. I have cedars up to 36" in diameter (not circumference) at chest height and almost 80 ft tall. Very little rot if any, and you can make 6 cuts in 1 minute and pull 6 trees down to limb every 20 ft. So, I am flustered by this change in attitude. The average tree is 24" diameter by 60 ft tall. The longest and most difficult part of the job apparently is the distance in and out on a trail already there.

If I could figure out how to add pictures I would. I can't seem to figure that out

Quote from: barbender on May 04, 2025, 10:05:49 AMjonesy_007, I am trying to catch up and clean up your multiple posts of the same subject and you are posting faster than I can keep up. Don't post the same topic in multiple boards, that is against Forum rules.

I got it cleaned up. Yea, welcome, and dont do that again! ffcheesy

---

80ft tall White Cedar? That's pretty huge. Did you core sample to show they are not rotten?

Yes. There is some rot on about 1 in 20 up to about 18" - 2ft at most. 1 in about 100 trees are totalled by woodpeckers. Of the 160 trees ready for pickup there is no more rot than mentioned. Now, that will be cut off of course. If you looked at a map of Canada or Ontario cedar areas and I am literally in the darkest green of the area. Never, ever been cut. The picture I just tried to upload (it was over the 1000kb limit so it didn't work) showed a pile. The pile is literally 18" diameter cedars about 40 to 60 feet tall. Now, those are being sold. But that's just the trail from South to North to get to the actual cedar trees that I am focussed on. Where 2' diameter is low end of average and 60 ft is small. So yeah, it's a pretty absurd amount and size of cedar. I started this with the intent on creating better whitetail habitat because the entire forest floor is barren due to cedar canopy cover. Also, the deer can no longer reach the branches on the mature trees for food even on their hind legs.

Use the gallery to post your photo. It resizes. 

I think your screwing yourself by not using a forester that may have a multiple market knowledge that Joe Logger may not have access to. Cedar logs that large and long are probably highly desirable highend cabin logs.  A good forester working with you can make you far more than you may ever realize trying to market yourself to a given mill.

I am not very old, but old enough to not be able to find the gallery lol! Sorry for such a hassle today!
I have videos of the skidder pulling some trees down etc... I am so thankful for everyone's opinion today.

Link is in the menu

Is the landing not on your property? I've worked bigger jobs and can't recall moving wood much more than a mile from furthest point and those usually involved crossing another property, with permission of course.

where is this ?, you talked in Kms so I'm guessing Canada, 6 kms haul to a landing a truck can pick up from is very hard , way to far for any skidder to do so maybe a big forwarder if you lane way is good enough to handle the weight or wait till its froze up and put the landing back at your bush where the trees are . I have seen us do over 40 kms to where the hwy trucks can pick up , 

A 4+ mile skid. That's where you lose me. Oh the fuel oh the misery. Couldn't listen to enough podcast lol
Get trucks closer to the wood everyone makes more money in less time. In fact I've never even heard of a 4 mile skid.
I'd say the logger is spot on 70:30 for that length skid. He prob tried it at 50:50 and say no way. I can't imagine production is high enough 
 Wait? Did you say a 4 mile + skid? No way ffwave

There was no Licensed Forester and written and recorded contract? 

Have a professional consulting forester serving your area exam and appraise your timber and then set up the most effective and efficient logging plan for your ecosystem.

Have the consulting forester determine the volume and minimum value of the timber to be put out on bids to the respectable loggers serving your area. Then have the consulting forester administer the harvest on through to completion so the harvest meets your objectives as planned in accordance with the terms of the timber harvest contract prepared by the consultant.

The 4-mile skid trail may have to be planned out over a muti-year timber harvest with cutting/payment units allowing for the
development of a seasonal truck haul road as a minimum. A 4-mile skid is not efficient and effective.

The other choices may be a hel1copter or ballon operation if the timber values are as high as stated.

I'm just curious of $1000 white cedar. Like Jeff mentioned, they must be selling at a log home cedar market. I can't imagine anyone attempting a job with a 4 mile skid though. That's a bit wild. I live in cedar country here and we do get 36" white cedar, 60-70 feet tall, but mainly if they grow in with maple and ash on upland sites. Down in pure cedar ground the diameter is smaller and the stems thicker and the ground a bit wetter, usually winter logging and hauling on winter roads. The bigger cedar here is pretty scarce these days as mostly those stands get clearcut. If you try to leave cedar trees behind they most certainly blow down due to their growth habit and soil type. And what a mess. Don't be surprised if the realized revenues don't come close to that figure. There can be a lot of rot in old growth cedar. It might be good stuff in one area, then worst in another. Mostly our cedar markets pay around $160 a cord. I've always felt white cedar was undervalued, now good cedar is lot more scarce. Most cedar mills here are closed down. There is one small mill near here, but he is sawing mostly fence boards or raised bed gardening stuff, you could make bird houses, but it's pretty low quality lumber due to knots and defect. 

 Log homes here by comparison are mainly spruce or pine logs. I have only been to one cedar log cabin here, which was a fishing camp. And was newly built at the time. This was 35 years ago. The cedar was sawed square. Even the floor and the door was cedar. Smells nice to. 

I'd suggest getting a road in there, is this 'lane' a crown reserved right of way?

If you have a lot of deer there, they will be hard on the cedar regen. Not many deer up here, maybe 3-6 hang together in groups over large areas. A lot of coyotes around here.  Cedar regenerates well here because of low browse pressure.

Your split on logger/landowner may work in your area, but 80/20 is closer to the split here. Often a land survey is needed. Line evidence, if it was ever marked at all, is usually long gone in these parts. In my area, private woodlot owners rarely hire foresters to administer logging and such. It just has never been practiced. We have woodlot owner groups here, and most, if any consulting, is done through those associations. They might account for 5%. But pretty much all the wood scale passes through their doors, as the truckers usually get a cheque off the scale bill and all wood is tracked through them because of chain of custody laws.

Well, I've rambled on enough. 

I will try to answer everything from the last posts in this one.
1 - Trail is already cut to property. No logging truck will ever make it back to this property. The skidder has already been in and out many times. It's a 30 minute drive in with the skidder empty and 1 hour drive out with 16 logs near 40 ft long being hauled (very large skidder makes it no problem). Skidder was $30,000 ready to work (used of course).
2 - The logger had been in many times and knew the trail when he agreed to the 50/50 as he lost his mind on the amount of timber (you can stand anywhere on my properties and look in all four directions and count 50-100 20" diameter plus cedars on dry land on bedrock). I was offering not only 50/50 on the cedar but everything. I have untouched sugar maples 36" diameter as well and 80 ft plus tall and veneer quality. So, I felt that simplifying things rather than negotiating separate rates for everything made more logistical sense.
3 - The trail in, spring, late fall and early winter is muddy in about 5 spots. The rest is bedrock (limestone actually).
4 - And a final note, I pulled out with my ATV and utility trailer enough wood last summer in a weekend to build a 8x12 cedar log sauna at my cottage 30 minutes away. That's me, alone with a chainsaw cutting small stuff (8" diameter to those specific lengths). Cedar is light. Can haul three times as much based on weight vs hardwood. So, I cut and hauled 20 8ft pieces, and 20 12ft pieces on my own (being old and with a herniated disc in my back) with an ATV and ATV utility trailer in about 8 hours total work felling, limbing and hauling without proper tools.
4 - Yes, it's north central Ontario on the largest freshwater island in the world. The trail in is deeded legal right of way. No permission required.
5 - I had a licensed forestry plan done on the property previously. Species breakdown etc... I have a large logging company that also owns a mill ready to write a cheque. But as mentioned I was hoping to help a guy start a logging company as he has always worked for others. I figured him netting $2M after any reasonable expenses over two years would have done that. Maybe I misunderstood the logging market or dollar signs for pupils I am feeling now.
6 - I may outsource some university kids, lend them my ATVs, trailer and a truck and have them do it because if I could make those hauls on my own the way I did knowing the drive is 45 minutes to the mill and I have 3/4 ton diesel trucks and big trailers I could give these guys $100,000 for a summers worth of work and put $300,000 in my pocket doing it piece work and Red Greening it.
Ultimately I think the logger got greedy at this point. I was a golden goose as a friend of mine reached out today who has done this before and in his words waiting 2 years for full payment comes with the logger making concessions. Up front payment, land owner makes concessions. Either I sell to the big firm and stop a guy from building an enterprise, give him a chance to redeem himself or hire some of my younger family friends who have some experience do it. I negotiated all the buyers and trucking and all he had to do was cut and haul... I feel good that 50/50 was more than fair at this point.
Restaurants clear 10-15% at best after all expenses, Renovation companies (I know, I owned one) are happy at 20-30% after expenses, Commercial Glass companies are 10% - 30% after expenses (I know, I owned one), Real Estate Rentals carry an 8% on average income return after expenses (I owned many), Realotrs make about 2% after expenses (I know, I am related to many). At 50% any foreseeable expense with an estimated sale of $5,000,000 worth of timber would have given this logger $2.5M... at the highest possible rate of 30% after expenses would be $750,000 net. That's assuming he had $1.75M in expenses over those two years... I don't know, I am pretty sure that's super reasonable on my part. I don't see anything over $250,000 in expenses over two years even hiring a crew.
It's safe to say, I don't feel like a jerk anymore 🙂

Who bought the Skidder and what make/model is it?

Timberjack 450b - I found that too and negotiated a deal then he decided to buy it on his own. Needed one new main line cable for the winch, a fuel filter change and had to unfreeze the diesel as it arrived in March up north.
He to his credit he did all that work on his own time and dime but that was about $3,000 in parts and calculating his time. Took about 3 days of work.
That was end of March, it's been running and working perfectly hauling since then and still no revenue to me 🤔

Quote from: jonesy_007 on May 05, 2025, 07:16:36 AMTimberjack 450b - I found that too and negotiated a deal then he decided to buy it on his own. Needed one new main line cable for the winch, a fuel filter change and had to unfreeze the diesel as it arrived in March up north.
He to his credit he did all that work on his own time and dime but that was about $3,000 in parts and calculating his time. Took about 3 days of work.
That was end of March, it's been running and working perfectly hauling since then and still no revenue to me 🤔

You can only be taken advantage of if you allow it.  No money for a month of cutting?  Kick him off the site today.

As a newer landowner, there was a logger here every winter, he got 60 I got 40 because it was a long skid. He got injured on another job and is on the recovery.

I ended up buying a timberjack processor and a forwarder to do some of the work myself because I'm didn't grow up chainsawing much. The work is a lot, and there's still places where he will have to log cause I can't get in with machines, breakdowns are real, what you think might be easy isn't as easy as you start out think. I've learned a lot in the last year of owning equipment, it is not for the faint of heart as many have already mentioned but I also didn't want to deal with the headache of other loggers after stories like this.

Right now, I call the mill when I've got wood out and they send the truck and direct deposit the money, so far anyways lol.

If the wood is still sitting on the landing, call the trucking you've arranged and send it to the mill and get the cheque in your name. Pay him his 50% and let him decide if he wants to continue doing business at the agreed upon rate.

If not, hire the big guy but be careful, it's not about what you take out, it's about what you're leaving behind that makes the best deer habitat. A select cut is probably a better option if you don't need all the money. I've got lots of wildlife back in where the dense bush I've thinned out immensely. They love the tops, especially the cedar in the winter months, and they bed down under in the dense young spruce/balsam patches

In my past life my experience has been that whenever a customer explained to me my cost structure, it never ended well.
My costs were my business and his costs were his.
Each party is responsible for their own bottom line.

I don't think that's the case here. He is trying to help someone prosper. Found him a skidder. Then the guy wants to renegotiate on the opinion of another logger who hasn't seen the lot.  I'd have to really like this guy for him to stay.  He isn't going to find the best market, novice and all anyway.

I've been reading this thread, and have to say, I am a little stunned if I read this right.  I am having trouble believing this is a real situation.   

Let me summarize and see if I have this correct:  You have millions of dollars of timber, a guaranteed check of several million from a big company who most likely is trying to put the screws to you (that's why they are a big company), and yet you want to work the deal yourself, a non professional landowner, and do business with a non professional small time logger who is erratic at best and already has shown his incompetence if not outright dishonesty?  Or work with a local university so their kids can get killed on your property and sue you for everything you own?  Those are your options for a multi million dollar, multi year deal?     

You don't have a pro timber broker, or a pro law firm, or any professional in the business to protect you and your land, whether dealing with either the big company or the small time guy already playing you like a fish?  Or the local university which would be a joke?  Oh, plus the timber market is a commodity market and the values of timber changes weekly? And you are worried about reimbursement of $3K of skidder line?  And asking for advice on a multi million dollar deal on a Forum you just joined two days ago?    Hmmmm.....

Am I missing something? 

I actually have trouble believing this is a true situation, it seems too farfetched to me, especially considering the magnitude of the money involved, and the lack of legal and professional counsel and protection.

The short answer is YES, you are being taken advantage of by everyone or soon will be.  Simple as that, from my viewpoint.  A hunk of meat in an ocean full of hungry sharks best describes your situation, and you are already bleeding from the leg with no life preserver on.  What's to keep the guy you have already employed from filing a lien against you and shut you down?  Or a made up or real, workplace injury claim?  Do you have insurance for such? 

Anyway, in an earlier post you said to be honest with you, and this is my opinion. 

Just to add t0 YHs post  Make sure the man has Paid up Workers Comp before you let him on the property or you could be stuck with a bill from the government later

Good advice for an unbelievable situation LeftFinger.
It's Saskatchewan advice for a story in Ontario, but I'm having trouble believing it's anything but a story.
There's been plenty of good advice given and three pages of it is plenty enough for an issue that is unbelievable.
Credibility is missing and so is common sense. 

All very good points yellowhammer. If I had a landowner approach me with 2 million$ worth of timber but wanted me to skid 4 miles I would walk it and first thing flag out a truck road, get necesarry permits and move the excavator over and punch in a truck road to the middle or best spot of the lot. Seems like the timber value and or volume is exxagerated and this whole situation is a little far fetched.

Did you buy a skidder for this guy or just find a listing? If you just found it which is what it sounds like and he bought it and paid for the repairs why would you be expecting money for that? My good friend found the listing for the skidder im currently running never once has either of us considered i owe him money...

One thing I've seen work well with shared harvests is using a third-party scaler or forester to document and track loads. Takes the guessing and trust issues out of the mix. Some co-ops or extension offices offer help with this too

Hmm- moderator please move to the thread "Wanting to be fair".

Thank you.

How many times is this topic going to pop up somewhere else? The moderator has other things to do!!

Maybe I did something wrong when I tried to merge the three original posts, Jeff.

:cowboy: popcorn_smiley

Quote from: barbender on May 06, 2025, 12:01:21 AMMaybe I did something wrong when I tried to merge the three original posts, Jeff.

Nah ffsmiley

Well if nothing else it's certainly been an interesting read.

Just to be clear, the numbers are real. We are in Canada and our prices are at Canadian dollar (so, value being the same, $2M Canadian at this moment is worth about $1.35M US).

Regarldess, this is not fiction.

You can't cut a road for a transport to this property, ever.

And yes, I really did want to help this guy. I am a long time business person who was reasonably fortunate so I don't really need the money but didn't want to be taken for a ride either.

In Northern Ontario as far as I can tell, there aren't many situations other than bringing in a big mill that landowners or loggers get consultants involved in but I have now due to recommendations.

I never mentioned I bought the skidder. I was going to, but then after seeing all the value I had he bought it, fixed it and as I mentioned in my post about the skidder "to his credit he paid for and fixed".

I guess, trying to be a nice guy I got kicked in the you know what.

I didn't want the big logging company in there because I wanted some control on the cuts, the mess and leaving all the limbs there for a burn to increase soil quality.

I have learned a lot in this process listening to most of you, but to be accused of being a liar by someone (this being a "story") that was unnecessary, unkind and untrue. If you don't have a sincere offer of guidance or something nice to say be like Grandma used to say "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all".

I did say don't hold back, but the implied request was whether I am being taken or if I was taking advantage NOT whether I was lying.

Thank you all for your time and remember kindness goes a lot further than calling someone a liar or a storyteller without any evidence at all...

You dont understand sir. We have been here for 25 years and our members have 1000's of years of combined experience and knowledge. Some of your statements lead many of us to wonder about this conversatiion. Some of the questioning comes from Canadian members with wide reaching closely related experiences. When you start talking about 100ft white cedar, to me, I scratch my head. I live in a Northern White cedar area within earshot of the Ontario border. A 60ft tree here is a flipping monster. The next town to my west is actually named Cedarville

So, if you can't take the questioning from true experts to get to your answers, that is another big red flag and we wonder why.  We've seen it all here. Stories that lead to cons included. It is our task to help those that come here, and also to find the facts where we have doubts

Jeff, thank you for your guidance and feedback. Again, no "story" here but that doesn't matter.
Appreciate all of you and your time. I won't waste any more.
I currently feel very unwelcome here and will proceed in a different direction.
Almost all of you were thoughtful and considerate while some were just ignorant.
Jeff, if you look at the north American map of Cedar density and size I am in the darkest of dark areas. And within that area my area is one of only maybe 1000 acres that has never, ever been cut.
So, whether you believe me or not, it's neither here nor there.
I don't know how I could "con" any of you by asking a question? I didn't ask anyone for money or to work my land?!?!
I don't get the "con" statement either.
I signed a think saying I wouldn't be hateful etc... accusing someone of being a liar or a con with no evidence is the definition of hateful.
Sorry for the pushback but I am not going to take that and if I am kicked off this forum so be it.
I was dipping my toe into letting people make money on my property and now feel like being a hoarder and keeping it for my kids and grandkids and dying with it

Long read but I am compelled to add my $0.02....

The deal is the deal. If you made a contract, unless both parties agree to renegotiate, the contract should stand. You, the landowner, did not force him into the contract - nothing to feel bad about.

As taught by my father, "A man is only as good as his word." I will lose money before I lose my reputation. The latter can not be purchased, only earned. Yep, I have lost money on this principle but I can always make more money. Rebuilding a reputation is nearly impossible. Stand by your word and honor it.

The logger entered into the contract with both eyes open and knew the length of the skid. He agreed to the 50/50 and should abide by his word whether he is making or losing. I do not care what his logger buddies think, they do not have the job nor the opportunity. A long term job like this is worth a lot in itself, especially for a little guy. If the logger was smart, he would be working on methods to increase efficiency to increase his hourly take, not bitching about what he wants for a bigger share.

Quote from: jonesy_007 on May 06, 2025, 07:57:50 AMYou can't cut a road for a transport to this property, ever.

Why? Is there any law against it? I live in Costa Rica so have no idea what you guys can do and what not, but i do own a quarry and heavy equipment and you won't believe where you can built roads with it

No one called you a con, I said weve had them before. Stories, then offers of deals. You never know where a road may lead. You are absolutely not unwelcome, but when an individual is called out, including me, I'd do every god *DanG thing in the world to prove my point, not bow out. We aint quitters. Prove yourself.

Jonensy just have someone help post a picture or two. Skidder and log pile, some standing trees. This will help you to get some critical advice.
  I'm real curious what this guy did in the forestry field before becoming involved in this harvest project.

If it's a crown reserved right of way, you get permission from DNR and you must build the road to standards and laws like the clean water act and such. To build a road to start with, the harvest somehow must cover the cost or otherwise it's not feasible. An excavator road can be built pretty fast. However, I've yet to see anyone get rich off northern white cedar harvests. I know many loggers who have had to sort a harvested pile of cedar at least twice on a job, there was just too much defect and rot in the pile to make much money. Piles of wood left road side unhauled. Some wood in the piles 3' across and hollow, like culverts. A cedar tree like that is 400+ years old. Untouched old growth cedar does not mean fortunes to be had. You have cut only a small sample of wood and probably the cream. And don't confuse prices from a primary forest products producer (you) with something being sold retail after all the sorting, sawing, drying, surfacing, finishing, marketing and distribution as been applied.  ffsmiley

Thank you to tree muncher for your context. I have lived my life that way as well.
Jeff, honest and sincere question here. How can I prove myself not a con or a liar on this forum?
I have tried to post pictures but I get a red text box telling me I am not allowed. So, that's been my experience trying to prove my inventory.
Tried in the menu/gallery and it didn't work. Then, tried creating a folder and putting pictures in and I get the same message.

I built this entire website as I was sitting in a sawbooth. I never took typing in school and only got a computer because my kids needed one. Never has a class or a mentor in the field. I knew nothing about nothing. I think you can figure out how to post pictures as it has been done over 300,000 times before you.

Jonensy it looks like you have two pictures in the gallery,  one looks like a game camera shot. Try loading more in your gallery. Even if you can't post them in a thread we can view in your gallery.  Don't forget to display today's newspaper in one of the pictures.(Joking!)

There are several pictures in there, but the only one sort of relatable to this topic might be this one. But it only tells me that cedar depicted isn't worth messing with.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/76590/IMG_1241.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=359171)

Lots of pictures now. I had to change format

And this one really adds to the clarity of the excuse the word, story. I said story because it is. Stories can be true or false.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/76590/View_recent_photos~0.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=359170)

Read the rules again. Post ONLY photos to be placed in a post and once in a post never delete.. I'm not in the photo storage biz.

Quote from: Jeff on May 06, 2025, 09:53:32 AMAnd this one really adds to the clarity of the excuse the word, story. I said story because it is. Stories can be true or false.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/76590/View_recent_photos~0.jpeg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=359170)

By the way, you forgot to ink yourself out in the thumbnails. And why screenshots? Post the picture. Screenshots are also flags.

You know what, I don't know why I am trying to prove myself to a bunch of people I don't know.
I was asked to post pictures and I posted some I thought would be helpful in the discussion and get ridiculed.
Some people in the forum were incredibly helpful and I appreciate all of you for that. Please don't let this next part affect how incredibly appreciative I am for you.
For those of you ridiculing me, calling me a liar, a story teller, making fun of me for not being able to post a picture in an archaic platform take a long walk off a short dock.
Some good info - Involve a consultant (took advice and check), I know the value of timber as a large firm made me an offer (used that after realizing an acquaintance needed to be home closer to his kids rather than travelling the province cutting hydro lines) to help him out and in this forum I got torn apart (not being a logger or anyone who has ever logged) by a bunch of experts. Experts who know they are experts and are well respected don't talk to people the way some of you talked to me.
Maybe I should take my grandfathers advice from 30 years ago when I was 21 starting to buy up property to "Never trust a logger..." He got raked over the coals once and every time a logger approached him to log his properties after he showed them the door. Many of his friends had similar stories. Maybe that's why a lot of us large land owners are sceptical.
I was incredibly willing to be helpful to someone, but now, screw it, big guy gets the job. And will forever with me. They have legal obligations to honour a contract, when apparently loggers can walk away anytime.
Signing off.. I'm out!

Jeff I know where he is talking about , we looked at buying a couple smaller islands just off the big one . We could not come to a real price so we passed on it but the guys that bought the islands went broke in less than a year . You will not skid 4 miles with a skidder , I donot care how big it is cause we have been down that road , even a big forwarder which makes more sense still is going to be hard to produce enough to make any coin or make sense . Your lane way looks good to you right now , put a skidder over it for a solid week and see what it looks like , it will be pure mud and rock and rougher than you could ever think , remember this is not our first rodeo , been there done that , Log it in the winter and send a bulldozer down the lane way and make it wide enough for the log trucks to get back to the trees and freeze the road in. $1,000 a 1000 is at the mill, you still got to pay trucking and which mill are you going to send to cause most mills in that area are shut down now or only running at a very slow pace cause no lumber sales, I think this land owner is missing the big point , first I would like to see the $1,000 a 1000 in my hand , next it looks like you want $500/1000 for the timber so that leaves the logger if you can get $500/1000, He has to pay trucking and that depends on what mill your trucking to so $150 to $200/1000 is normal , so now he is down to $300/1000. Going rate around here for lots of loggers is $250/1000 to cut and skid and thats 10 feet up to maybe 1/4 of a mile at the longest . Logging cost is way to high in Canada, You put a big skidder at a 4 mile skid and just see what the fuel cost is cause the skidder is pulling as big of loads as it can, We use to fill up every 4 hours cause machines would not go 6 hours on a full tank . And last thing is the cedar on those other islands was not that good, lot of rot on the stump on the big trees , I'm more than happy on how it turned out that we did not get it cause that was going to be a hard job to deal with

and the islands were full of rattle snakes and I mean full , you seen lots everyday 

As I was logging out for the final time I caught EHP note.
No, I offering 50/50 AFTER logging costs (in my first post and others answering the same question over and over). The logger was responsible for cutting and hauling to landing cut to size.
No rattle snakes on this island. Like, none. Ever. I have walked this island for 40 years and never seen or heard one.
Just for context

Here's an old growth 36" white cedar, that was left on a clear cut. Those little sticks and stems are all maples. The top blew out of that tree standing out in the hard winds like a sail. I have seen those big ones left behind either standing or road side piles. Everyone in the country complained of wood laying to rot, but no one was buying any.  ffcheesy

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_white-cedar3.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=115485)

I have bored and aged lots of cedar that were around 20" dbh and 240-280 years old. Usually 1-5 % of the stems that size. I've seen aspen 40" diameter in those stands, old fire ground. Better soil than some cedar ground. In poor growing stands [wet ground]  they were thick and maybe 12" was the biggest and 160 year old, most 6-8" diameter. Lots and lots of sweep in the stems.

To EHP - I had lined up multiple buyers willing to buy 5-7 full 5 tier trucks per week. $1000/1000 minus 15% for truck costs.
I also secured mills in the area, that could handle full loads once or twice a week at $1000/1000 delivered. Located a trucker for $150 an hour all in (4 tier truck) and the mill was 45 minutes from landing.
I did a lot of research before I decided to try to help this guy out.
All I said was 50/50 after trucking and I don't want to think about a thing.
He agreed after seeing everything.
He now wants to change the rules and I am thinking way too much.
Easier to take a little less, get it up front and cut the little guy loose.
Unfortunate but that's why big business survives and thrives, they make it easy to do business with them.

After that post, I have a very clear idea of the individual we have posting here. You asked us a personal question. Are you a fair person. You asked, my answer is now, NO. you are not.

Keep in mind that I have never sawed White Cedar. I have sawed a good bit of Eastern red Cedar and am now sawing some Western red Cedar. I've sawed plenty of other SYP and southern hardwood. The logs in your pictures look like they would be some tough milling. I hope you keep us informed on how this turns out.

Its pretty easy to mill, soft and coarse grain but does suck up lots of dirt in the wood , you state after trucking you split 50/50 so that still means the logger paid 50% of the trucking , the reason he changed the rate is because he got himself into something he was not setup or ready for and found out he was not making any money . Lots of guys see huge numbers and their brain quits working , their pencil is not printing true real numbers that are the cost and the true production , At 4 mile skid using a skidder and a 450B is smaller than what we used your not going to produce much , Is this skidder pulling from the stump or is there a smaller skidder bunching for the big machine , You talk the truck is a 4 tri trailer so something has to load it so thats more cost again. Not saying anything other than the true facts and your not the only cedar around . AS far as snakes goes , if you have never seen snakes then you are either very lucky or not out much , From Parrysound north on the shore then west there is more now than ever , first time we were on the island right beside the one your talking about the guy showing us the timber dog got bite in 15 seconds getting off the boat , if you walk out on a dock and fish for abit you check the dock before turning around cause its nothing to have 3 or more sunning them self on the dock

Drama, overstatement and exaggeration.  You got on this Forum three days ago and now, despite you being "incredibly" willing to help someone and "don't need the money" and "don't mind blunt answers" you get your back all up from multiple professionals pointing out your obviously incomplete statements.  Some of these pros may even know your laws, and maybe have worked in some of those nearby areas.  It would seem taking deliberate and strategic business input is not your strong suit.  Nope, instead, you fly off the handle and pitch a little hissy fit.         

For example, in the last few hours, you have changed your whole philosophy, and now, "The big guy gets the job."  So WOW, due to a few posts on a Forum from people who you don't know, you changed your mind on a multimillion dollar timber deal? In another country?  Yeah, OK.  What happened to "incredibly willing" to help the little guy?  What happened to helping the University?  Have we already forgotten about them?  Are you telling me you were a "businessman" and are swayed that easily by mere comments on a Forum you just joined?....yeah, right.  That make's zero sense and it's obvious there is more to the story than just what you are saying, and yet you get your hackles up when those errors and omissions are pointed out.  Or are we all supposed to simply validate you and say "Sure, that sounds great!  You are da man! Great job!"

So you did actually hire a "consultant"?  When?  Yesterday?  If not then, when?  And you just happened to mention it today?  What kind of consultant?  Oh, don't bother, I don't want to know, anymore.

You don't need the money, but are going to cut down property that has "never, ever, ever been logged."  Why?  You said you didn't want to be considered a "hoarder?"  That is about the most illogical statement I've ever heard about a reason to cut timber.  Let's revisit that:  "I don't need the money, but I don't want people to think I'm a hoarder."  Well, give some of your money away until people won't think you are a hoarder.  However, your response is to cut timber that has "never, ever, been cut?"  If you don't want to be considered hoarder, give your money to charities, and keep the trees standing for the next many generations to enjoy.  Set it up as a foundation so it can't be sold and it stays wilderness.  However, now, you will just cut them down, because although you don't need the money and want to help the little guy, you are doing exactly the opposite in your proposed actions, taking the money and helping the big company.  Maybe a little drama there?     

Oddly, the only person calling you a "con man or liar" is you.  I personally thought you were maybe an AI bot.  So your statement right there is "not true."  You can call it what you want.           

And yet you say, "Experts who know they are experts and are well respected don't talk to people the way some of you talked to me."  How about don't disrespect others, experts or not, by providing incomplete, erroneous, or exaggerated information when asking for help?  If you want facts, tell the facts.  I am just pointing out that even if you are telling the facts, you are only selectively telling them, and that throws up a huge red flag.       

To me, it is obvious you have been working this deal for months, have talked to quite a few people, both professional and not, maybe even a consultant or two, certainly your family, and yet, you over dramatize the situation and throw a temper tantrum, and say you kept all your multimillion dollar decisions in limbo until this morning, when you read the posts on this Forum and because of them, just decided to let the big company have the job.  Sure, yeah....I believe that.

So my evaluation of your situation is that you are looking for validation, consolation, or attention, and did not want real answers to begin with, because you already knew the answer.         

 

 
   



   

Some people are experts. Experts at logging, others at engineering, brain surgery, making bread, eating..... etc. It is important to remember that just because you are an expert in one area that doesn't make one an expert in all areas. Get unbiased expert help when needed! It's not going to be free but it might save in the end. I might cut a few trees in my backyard but I sure as heck am not making high dollar logging contract decisions without professional help! You need to pay for professional help! Not ask for help from random strangers on the internet. Of all the forums I read and participate in FF is probably one of the most polite.... Hire competent help!

i bought a lot of wood in last 30 yrs did not see anything in any of those pics which looked like anything but junk wood.  
the first post had more red flags than a red headed er nurse. 
  Is this from a ai bot farm?   

And not only that you Ontario fellas hang your deer upside down  :snowball:

Rattlesnakes in Canada?
Eastern diamond backs?

Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake (Sistrurus catenatus)

Guess that's what a snow snake is all about.
Who knew.

So, the only reason I am back on here today is because a very kind and thoughtful member took the time to reach out privately and tried to work through this issue with me. With very little discussion, no judgement and sincerity I was able to work through it to a decision. I thank that member and will in the private message as well. The private title to me was "Tough Crowd". Remember under my name it says "New Forum Smell". I am like that kindergarten kid getting bullied by a Grade 5 or 6 students by some of you... Does that make you feel good? Puff your chest out because you humiliated or tried to humiliate a brand new member and person to logging? If it does, that's sociopathic. Feel sad for you.
When someone asked a question such as I did in the forum "Is this fair or not" I would answer that question. I was asked for more information and provided as much as I could earnestly and with nothing held back. Some of you very kind and thoughtful people chose to try to help me. Some of you answered a question that wasn't asked. Someone thought it pertinent to call me a liar, a bot, a "story teller" or a con. I didn't ask if I was any of those things. I know the answer to those questions already, and it's no.  People who answer questions that were never asked typically just want to hear themself talk. So, best to you.
For all of you that actually tried to help me, thank you and I appreciate your time. To the rest, I wish you the best but hope the next guy who is new to this stuff doesn't get treated the same way.
The hate, agitation, anger and venomous reactions were just not good human behaviour (referencing the rattle snakes that don't exist on this island for the second time - yes from Parry Sound north they do, scarcely. I own a cottage on Lake Nippissing and have seen about 4 there in 20 years and of the approximately 1000 acres I own on this island I to this day have never, not once seen or heard any rattlers at all, ever - when it's dry I wear running shoes or Keen sandals everywhere in and out of the bush if I am not doing any work and not concerned whatsoever nor are any Haweaters either - if you know the island I am talking about then that term will mean something). Again, thank you to those who were helpful!

Wow, what a douche. 

As I was thanking the gentleman who took the time to help me your "Fearless Leader" took the time to call me a Douche. So, someone who calls themself a fearless leader (even if they were actually leading something worth being fearful of) is the essence of such a word... thank you for proving my point... that was easy

Humility and kindness go a long way. They are actually contagious if you try to see the human behind the words you are throwing at them - like I said, I feel for those of you who found joy in trying to humiliate a new person. Hope it made you feel tough...

Goodbye jonesy_007

Oh, Im going to let him continue for awhile he has no idea of the caliber of industry people here watching his display. When he does go, he can take his little imaginary friend with him.

Jonesy you remind me of a 12 yr old trying to play on an a grown up forum

You cottage is a ways from your island, those rattle snakes travel by water so stay near the big lake , 50 miles inland there are very few of them but at the shoreline of the big lake they are there and some of the smaller islands the land is protected cause its against the law to kill those snakes , when you step on land and all you hear is the buzz from their tails you take notice , they are not a big snake put nothing to fool with, 3 ft long is a good size one and their not to friendly , not a good pet to kiss good night

Jeff, pull the plug

This thread reminds me of a great Johnny Cash Quote. "If you go in that bar and they break your leg, then you better not go back" 
Guidance was requested and given accurately several times here. 

Whoa what's goin on around here?!

Jonesy, the cedar in your picture looks like...cedar. I mean, it's good cedar, but eastern white cedar compared to other woods is frankly junky wood. It makes beautiful lumber, but everything about it is low, low production. From logging to sawing.

I've been sawing cedar the last few days. It makes me want to hit my head on something.

I have around 15-16 years in the woods, most of that running forwarders in a production environment. I have never skidded anything 4 miles. 1 mile was the longest, and that was ridiculous. On a regular skid, 12-15 loads and a tank of fuel. One mile skid, 5-6 loads and run out of fuel on the landing.

Even at a buck a foot minus trucking, so .80-.90bf, I can't see that being profitable. I know cedar, when you are dragging out tree length that whole tree isn't going to be $1/bf saw logs. You'd have to be very selective of what even gets a choker wrapped around it.

Ehp knows your area, and he's going to give you the straight talk on this. I'd be listening to him.

If the profits were that much of a slam dunk, one of us would be trying for a Canadian visa. Or ehp would just slide over to make all that coin.

Hi Barnender, a big thank you as moderator for jumping in. EHP is in my general area yes, but not sure he has been where I am. I will try to send a private message to him.
You asked what was going on around here? Simple. A guy, who admittedly with a lack of knowledge in logging made a deal with someone who reneged. In every business I had been in previously I would have done what many have suggested torn up the contract and walked away.
I was given different opportunities in my life that led me here to a very fortunate existence. Privileged, but earned.
When I found out a guy needed this opportunity essentially to save his marriage I offered it to him turning down a very large sum of money... wanting to help a guy I trusted prior to this renegotiation after a month of cutting and not selling.
I simply wanted to know if the split we agreed on was fair or not or if the new suggested split was more fair? It was a pretty simple question. I provided details beyond necessary (maybe that's where I went wrong) but the response from some of your senior people and forum members have been very unnecessary and uncalled for.
I provided additional information to the extent that I have on my phone or iPad. I never, ever walked property with the intention of selling timber. It's a whitetail hunting property. So, my picture are scarce and I provided what I could.
I was called a liar, story teller, a ai bit, and a con. Not sure why, I tried to be an open book but the picture book these wanted to see isn't available right now.
I am back up in May with the Forestry Consultant to do a full walk around and pay for a report. I have an offer from a large logging/mill for 50-60% of cedar for a large sum of money. As I mentioned, I don't really need the money but if trees are coming off my properties I want to be treated fairly... that's all I asked.
When people started asking for more information I gave the best I could (not the best representation of what I have but something to visualize as requested).
By the end of this, I was called a Douche by your Fearless Leader. Not sure any leader would ever call someone a Douche but point taken.
I own a lot of property. Cedar in some 100 acre parcels, hardwood in others, pine in others etc... I thought this would be a good and healthy environment simply to try and understand how to help this guy out without giving up more than I should. I wasn't saying 70/30 wasn't fair, I was asking.
I got my back up when I was called a liar, story teller, a bot and a con. In my previous life (younger days and face to face) it would have been a two hit fight. I would hit them and they would hit the ground. Can't do that anymore, especially when we are all hiding behind a keyboard.
So, essentially I asked a question. Then I was asked for further details which I provided the best I could. I was then essentially ripped apart by your team and some members. There are some great guys on here, and I would hope that I can continue to speak with them. Some of the others are just looking to sh*t on someone and I was the rookie of the week.
So, it would be a privilege to continue to speak with those interested in helping me or working with me.
At this point I feel that my membership will be pulled because I don't take crap and stand up for myself but there have been a few people that were terrific and that's who I am hoping to get some isolated time with.
Thank you for your time in advance,
Jonesy

Not that I feel that anyone should feel obligated to look at the maps of cedar density in Ontario and a map where I have circled where my properties are they are posted in my gallery.
I used Ontario but it's the same using Canada or North America the darkest of the green for density is this specific island, and like I said these are old, straight, minor rot trees with some being useless due to woodpecker hollowing.
The pictures I posted originally were pictures the I didn't take last year expecting to harvest anything. It came up this year. The pictures with the skidder have been sent to me by the logger.
I don't have the "wow" pictures you were expecting because it never crossed my mind until this spring that I would potentially have my logs harvested.
Thank you for your time.

One more thing to consider, is the timber/lumber market right now. I know it is really low in my area on just about everything. If I had timber to sell I would try to wait until the market recovered some.
I will also add that sawing logs that had been skidded for 4 miles would put the blade cost pretty high. I would lower what I was willing to pay for the logs by at least 25%

@jonesy_007 If you type ONE MORE disrespectable comment to ownership, moderators or members who have all tried to help because you are obviously way over your head, you WILL be banished from this website. Thats it period. Yer not pulling that bi-polar 5!@#%^&* here. Listen and learn and pull your big girl panties up. As founder and owner I WILL not put up with your hanging with men that belong here unless you grow a pair which you are obviosly missing You will easily become a footnote here.

@jonesy_007 i came to this site about 5 years ago with similar questions to yours. I bought 300 acres in Ontario and wasn't sure what I was going to do with it. The members here gave me their honest opinion like they've done for you. I can't say I listened to them all, I went my own route and some of what they warned me about has come true.

In those 5ish years I've seen posts like yours several times. Some were internet trolls or AI Bots and some were actually looking for useful information. These guys have seen it all.

You may have lots of experience in other areas of business, I was in the steel industry for 16 years, and you may own 1000s of acres but the logging industry as I have come to find out is a whole other beast. 

It sounds like you're going to get a forestry consultant out to the farm and hopefully you will be respectful of their opinions. 

The guys on here in the industry know what they are talking about. The big $$$ you're talking about SEEMS unrealistic to the guys that have been running log related businesses their entire lives. 

I thought I'd have big dollar trees too. And the more I cut into the property I'm cutting out more dead and rotten stuff than I anticipated. $80/ton after trucking seemed like a great price until the loaded trucks were only hauling 25-30 ton, not 40ish and cedar weighs considerably less! 

Quote from: jonesy_007 on May 07, 2025, 01:50:44 AMIn my previous life (younger days and face to face) it would have been a two hit fight. I would hit them and they would hit the ground. Can't do that anymore, especially when we are all hiding behind a keyboard.

ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy  More drama.  Let's see how it goes.

 

Fearless Leader - feel free to "banish me". Like Lord of the Flies stuff here.
I don't want to be a part of a forum where the "ownership" can say what they want about me but when I call them out they don't like that so much.
I don't think anyone has ever said the words "you will be banished" to me before... sounds like a sorcerer.
Banish away at this point

Bipolar disorder is an actual diagnosed neurological disorder so to try and humiliate someone who doesn't have it is disrespectful and yes "hate" towards the bipolar community.
I am the guy trying to be nice, asking a question and getting ripped apart, called names and made fun of... I am the guy getting banished... good choice

This professional Victim is gone. What a waste of time.

Good riddance.

I think his hair was glued on too tight  O0

There were more flags, such as posting from 5 different I.P. addresses, and now repeated attempts to get back in. Out of respect for human genitalia, I left my name calling to a minimum.  If you've been here awhile, yall know I have ways of drawing them out.  ffcheesy  There were flags from the very beginning when he started spamming the boards. He may have been an intentional troll. I know life is to short to deal with peckerheads. Oh crap! I apologize to all genitalia for dat.

And he was the guy thinking he was really helping a down-and-out logger, when he was really burying him in a "deal" that was impossible to survive. 

Came here thinking we would back up his 50/50 share arrangement. 

That didn't take long.

Quote from: YellowHammer on May 07, 2025, 08:00:38 AMffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy  More drama.  Let's see how it goes.

Dang it. How am I going to find out how many millions he made off that timber?

It's a 2 Million dollar deal (chance of a lifetime) I'll give you half

The guy jumped on it.
First day on the job I'll bet reality hit hard.
Long haul and when the logs started hitting the ground the quality would be nothing like the salesman said.

Quote from: YellowHammer on May 07, 2025, 11:34:34 AMThat didn't take long.

Quote from: YellowHammer on May 07, 2025, 08:00:38 AMffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy  More drama.  Let's see how it goes.

Some would say it took too long. :wink_2:

From his map, looks like Manitoulin Island, near Espanola. Unfortunately DNR does not provide forest inventory maps for that Island. It would give a lot more detail than the map provided. I think the way his map is defined is based on presence or abundance, which is a percentage. It's not anything to do with stand density, quality, vol estimation, area per stand, tree height and so on. Pretty limited.

DNR pages.

Inventory

https://www.ontario.ca/page/forest-resources-inventory

Fire Map

https://www.lioapplications.lrc.gov.on.ca/ForestFireInformationMap/index.html?viewer=FFIM.FFIM

Entirely too close to me via Island hopping. 

I bet the check is in the mail for him to become a premium subscriber too.

It would be the first one in 3 months if he did! 

I thought maybe he should just go buy a sawmill pack it in and haul finished product out since it was so valuable.  Is there a big bridge out to said island or do we have to hire a boat?? Sorry my eyes kind of glazed over somewhere about page two.  Oh well lunch time is over.    ffsmiley

Pretty sure there is a bridge from Espanola. That's where the road comes down to it.

I know someone who sails a lot whose over near North Bay. Probably sails by there all the time. I worked with him on the west coast. He sails a lot down along the eastern shore in the US. His last reported sail was down around Northern Chesapeake in Maryland back in March.

ehp-- with all the snakes-- must be a lot of mice, wood rats? Or something?
Or no predators?

I stopped following this topic after the first 30 or 40 posts. The BS alarms were going off in my head. Just stopped back in to see what was going on. Looks as though the alarms were correct.

Not sure if the guy was fabricating the whole story, greatly exaggerating the details, or just someone who thought that because they knew something about one business figured that translated into being an expert in any business. At any rate, it looks as though I did not miss much.

I've worked in bouldery ground before where ordinary garder snakes were all over the place. It happened to be kinda wet at one place and the snakes were on the rocks hunting for frogs. I also worked on cedar ground that had been logged off, so second growth cedar was growing and the size that could be cut with a clearing saw to space them. I sat down on a cedar stump for lunch, and there were plenty of old cedar stumps around. They stay hard for years. Anyway, there were mice travelling under those stumps and under the moss and slash in every direction. A snake could earn a good living on that ground.  One of the most mice infested places I've seen. ffcheesy

He's had 6 more attempts on 3 more different I.P. addresses to get back in.

WOW!  he must really have a point to make.  Not looking for info, but pats on the back.  

lol, that was a fun topic, i kinda liked the heated back and forth  ffcheesy . was probably a pain for you Jeff.

now the guy regrets it and wants back.

i don't know your guys markets but after years on the forum those numbers seemed kinda off to me, talking about millions!

The million thing sounded like a lot to me too.

I highly doubt this one has regrets ever on anything.

Prolly wants back to drop more condescending, lippy remarks. Glad he hasn't made it yet. 
Jeff has had to deal with several wannabe's over the years who can't take the heat and won't accept that they were/are wrong. 

His cedar wouldn't be any different than ours I'm sure. And I never saw anyone get rich off old growth white cedar full of rot. A lot of the rot can be 'pencil rot' it's called up here, which can be all along the stem and discontinuous as well. It's common in western red cedar to. And there is no exterior signs.