Im trying to figure out how to be more efficient when running the LT40 remote by myself and minimize my trips to the log deck.
When I watch the videos that folks post of milling with remote operator consoles, when squaring a log into a cant or trimming edges of boards, there isn't much walking down to the far end to measure the height of the log and calculate the depth of cut or toe-board height. Somehow they know the proper height to cut at without measuring or so it appears.
How do they make efficient and accurate cuts without getting an actual measurement of the the log's far end height from the bed rail ? Miscalculating, wastes wood , time , fuel etc. I find myself either taking a walk to the far end with a tape measure and measuring or I run the saw head down and lower the blade to the top of the log ...but then I still have to walk down to read the small numbers off the vertical scale. Or, I guesstimate and often have to make a second cut.
Besides using a laser to see how a log lays on the deck, is there a technique(s) besides walking down and measuring that gives the remote operator the necessary height information?
Using the vertical scale to measure the far end works but if a log requires turning it means a back and forth trip of the saw head to enable the hydraulics.
Thanks .
Which setworks?
With the Accuset 2, I normally don't measure but once and many times not at all. There are enough settings to really reduce the number of measurements necessary.
One key is small end toward the sawyer. For me this allows me to sight better for adjusting the toe boards.
I tend to have to take more measurements when cutting 12/4 plus live edge material, one or two off kinds of stuff.
Small end towards head. Set head height with ample clearance, run down to the other end, lower to the log and take a reading. Adjust toe board, take a reading. Return and cut.
I would think situating the small end towards the head of the mill would eliminate most of your problems.
With LT40 side supports, they're a little under 12" high. Eyeball how high things are compared to those side supports. In time your eye will become "calibrated" to where you can tell a 1/4" difference from one end to the other. You will know that you need to set your blade to whatever height to clean things up. You might need to lower your side supports to cut at that certain height but you won't have to go to the other end with a tape measure.
Small end toward sawyer. Consider marking the uprights with lines every 2". Logs bigger than the uprights mean just eye balling how high it is above the upright.
Woodmizer used to sell a sight gauge which was basically a piece of spring mounted on a clip at the height of the blade. I could use that as a fairly decent gauge of the height of a log but it means bending over to sight down it.
When sawing top down, if your leveling roller is up you are more apt to notice it after turning a partially sawed log. This helps in reducing the number of extra long door wedges.
GAB
In addition to the height of the backstops, I also "gunsite" from my board dragback to my blade, to guage where I'll be at on the far end.
I'll try to remember to load the small end of the log towards the head, that makes sense.
I have the Simpleset set works .
Its difficult for me to read the height gauge numbers when its 6' or more away. Larger letters would sure be helpful , or binoculars !
Do you use a cheat sheet? A cheat sheet will help cut down on the measurements with a tape or rule. A cheat sheet makes a sawyer use the scale more.
Quote from: SawyerTed on June 01, 2025, 02:05:19 PMDo you use a cheat sheet? A cheat sheet will help cut down on the measurements with a tape or rule. A cheat sheet makes a sawyer use the scale more.
Could you explain what you mean by a cheat sheet . Thx .
When I make a cheat sheet, it is numbers that give me a starting point so that I land on my desired cant size with the dimensions I'm sawing. Say I'm sawing 6/4x6" boards. I'd have the numbers 6" (cant width) 7⅝, 9¼, 10⅞, 12½ etc. Those numbers give you 6/4 accounting for ⅛" saw kerf. So say you open a face, and take a 6/4 flitch. Flip 180°, and now you can use whatever one of those numbers gives you an opening face. Keep sawing down with those numbers until you get to your 6" cant width.
I have a fraction calculator app on my phone that has saved me from standing there with drool dribbling on my chin while trying to figure out the numbers for my cheat sheet😊
I establish a "target" on the log whether I actually mark it or not. That is like saying that you need to know where you are going before you leave home.
I walk to the end of every log that I saw to get an initial measurement and pinpoint my initial face opening. To me, that first face opening is the most important pass that you make because it is the basis for the entire log being sawed. On the second face opening I use the side supports as a guide to determine whether the log is level. After that, my cant size has been established so I use either my cheat sheet or my fuzzy brain to lead me through the remainder of the sawing.
Opening Face LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=124591.msg2033755#msg2033755)
Attached to this should be a copy of my cheat sheet in PDF format. We run accuset II on an LT50 and really don't need or use it very often. What it's most handy for is to give me that target that others refer to letting me know what can't size I need to hit in order to come out with an even number of boards at a given size and not have an odd sized dog board. There are many other ways it is handy, but that's the main one. On my manual mill this would get used all the time, but I still do those numbers in my head.
I'll try to send you a copy of my cheat sheet if I ever re-learn how to attach something besides a picture.
Magic makes a good point about walking to the end of every log. If I don't see a distinct pith/heart check (crack) on my end of the log I am sawing I always go check the other end to see if there is one there and place it in the vertical position before I start sawing because I want it horizontal when I turn the cant at the end to start sawing my finished boards. There may be exceptions when sawing something like posts or such but they are rare.
Most hardwoods I saw have a heart check, sometimes they have 2-3 to contend with. Softwoods may or may not have a check.
Remember your depth of cut on your first and third faces determine the width of your finished boards. The depth of cut on your 2nd and 4th fact determine how many board you get. This is where your cheat sheet comes into play so you finish on a finished board and don't have to make an extra cut or end up with a thick or thin board on the bed at the end of sawing the cant.
Quote from: chainsaw_louie on June 02, 2025, 09:08:29 PMQuote from: SawyerTed on June 01, 2025, 02:05:19 PMDo you use a cheat sheet? A cheat sheet will help cut down on the measurements with a tape or rule. A cheat sheet makes a sawyer use the scale more.
Could you explain what you mean by a cheat sheet . Thx .
A cheat sheet gives the cant size in increments that correspond to your board thickness plus kerf. So the cheat sheet informs the sawyer what the target sizes are without measuring and without pause for calculating. The staring cant size allows all boards to come off equal, even the dog board/bottom board if the thickness is 1" or greater. If sawing boards less than 1", a cheat sheet allows all dog boards to be equal thickness based on whatever thickness you want.
A cheat sheet allows the sawyer to work down to a specific cant size and have all boards come off the same thickness.
This is especially useful when sawing products that do not align with the 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4 scales. For example 5/8" clapboard.
Even for the standard x/4 scales a cheat sheet gives the target cant heights so you don't necessarily have to measure every time you turn a cant.
The cheat sheet doesn't eliminate an inspection of the log or initial measurement to establish a starting point. It doesn't eliminate measurement for centering the pith.
A cheat sheet eliminates the need to channel Jethro Bodine's ciphering (Ought plus 1 is ought kind of thing).
My (older) Setworks does not know where the head is as does AccuSet, so my cheat sheet simply gives me the starting height to reach various points within a cant.
I established it years ago when I first started sawing but I seldom ever refer to it anymore. As I said above, know where you are going before you leave home and you will arrive at the proper location.
If you don't know where are going, any road will get you there. Lewis Carroll
If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up somewhere else. Yogi Berra
The cheat sheet, as MM says, lets you know where you are going.
Her is my cheat sheet.
Yup, that worked. I was curious to see what your looked like but I don't have Word.
Tom,
Did it open for you? If not I can attach the pdf download.
I list every mark from start to finish on mine but you could just mark the start (Max height on your mill) and a few intermediate points and start at one of them and print it on a post card sized paper. I keep mine in a gallon zip lock bag with a couple of HF magnets holding it to the cover of my control box where it is convenient to use.
The file is just fine. But I do not have MS Word, so when the file tries to open, the computer wants me to buy a subscription for Word and I ain't gonna do that.
For those of you needing to open Office files, LibreOffice is free and will open Office files.
LibreOffice (https://www.libreoffice.org/)
Tom,
Can you open this one?
yup and now I recall that you and I do ours opposite from each other. You start from the bottom up, and I start from the top down.
Yeah, it is easier for me as I start on a cell with the last board and I just add each new thickness till I get to the top height I can cut.
For routine pith centered sawing, load the log, look at the far end, (big or small) and look at where the pith crack is on a couple planes and project that out normal to the bark and look for a defect or swell or something that "marks" it or gives you an idea of where it is, especially relative to the mill backstops, which are measuring sticks for the lines projected out to the bark. These are your projected reference planes. You have to visualize and think in 3D. Then adjust the toe boards until the bark reference points are equal heights above or below the backstop. You can practice by taking a hatchet or something and physically mark the bark on a couple planes, but after awhile, that won't be necessary, you'll be able to eyeball it. At that point, your pith is centered pretty close.
For parallel bark sawing, find the best face, eyeball the dominant line on the best face, and adjust the toeboards or worst case, drag the band over the top of the log or use the fingers, and correct with the toeboards.
At that point make a cut and if it's not good, make a quick toeboard adjustment, and start sawing.
For quartersawing, level the pith by eye, then double check the ends with a tape measure. I get mad at myself if I am not pretty close.
As they say, after awhile, you'll be able to eyeball it within a 1/4" without much effort, but for Sawing, I like to be within a 1/4".
I keep wanting to install a laser, the WM is $1600 and many months lead time....I even bought an aftermarket el cheap laser off the Amazon, and it's still in the box it showed up in, a couple years later. So all I have to do is install it, but just never get around to it. Now it's kind of matter of pride not having one, although I keep thinking "I ought to install it....Naw,,,yeah,,,,nah,,,maybe someday I'll find a used WM one and buy it, nah....yeah..." ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy
That's a wealth of information! here's what I'm getting:
1. Walk the log and assess what's the best face for the opening cut.
2. On whichever end of the log that has the higher pith, note that height on the closest side support and adjust the toe boards on the opposite end to match
3. Trim the log on at least 2 sides
4. Mark with a crayon on the ends of the log your 'target' cuts. If the log is going to be flat sawn top to bottom the target may be the center of the pith or a box above & below the pith. Or the target may be the top of the last board laying on the bunks.
5. At this point, look at the cheat sheet and depending on the desired board thickness, grab the measurement that exactly matches the distance from the target line to the top surface of the cant. Adjust the target line up/down or trim cut off the top of the cant as necessary to get an exact match to the cheat sheet number. Move the lower side of blade to the height equal to the top of the cant.
6. Now I have several choices for repeating the setting for the blade drop increments:
- Set my Simpleset or other set-works to the thickness used to get the topmost cut height from the cheat sheet. Then use this automation to make duplicate thick cuts down to the target line.
- No set-works ...Use the movable height scale, align the solid line on the scale of the desired thickness (4/4, 5/4, 8/4 etc) to align with the target line, then cut at these incremental lines on the movable scale. If other thicknesses are needed I guess I could make custom scales.
So the cheat sheet gives a quick height measurement for the starting cut . But the set-works takes over from there.
The movable scale is pretty much obsolete if one has automatic set-works. Otherwise it is faster and less error prone method to make repeated, duplicate thickness boards.
Corrections welcome !!
Don't forget . assess each log while it is still on the deck. You can make decisions on that log before you even lift it onto the mill. Is the pith equal on both ends? any bumps sticking out, are the ends trimmed smooth?
You are absolutely on the right train of thought.
With this framework as a guide, you will find your own methodology that works. It may be precisely what you have outlined or you'll tweak it a bit.
It may vary slightly depending upon what species you are cutting and what product you are milling.
Yes, as Ted said, you have it pretty much understood. Remember that every log is different. When you get to the 3rd and 4th face you may want to take a couple of jacket boards off to get to your targets and edge those boards later. I try to use those boards when I am working on an order that may have one or two odd sized boards in it. If you can get the oddballs out of the way, it makes it easier to focus and the bulk of the order.
You have the basics, now just do it over and over and adjust as you go. Focus on the quality of the boards you are producing and if things are getting out of hand, stop and rethink, then change tactics. Logs can be tricky and not always follow the simple logic we'd like to go by. Sweep, bow, twist, and stress can really make a new sawyer question himself and the laws of physics and math. ffcheesy ffcheesy
The cheat sheet does 2 main things for me.
First it makes sure I end on a finished board saving me one cut off every log/cant I saw.
The second thing is does is when I position the cant the final time and move the blade to the height on the cheat sheet I can see if I can salvage another board off that cant.
For example if I am sawing true 2" framing using 2-1/8" drops on my set works when I rotate the cant the final time I might move the blade to a 10.5" height and see what is above and below the blade. If there is no bark left on the cant there what happens if I move it up to the 12-5/8" setting? Can I get a clean 2" board? Maybe I can't get a clean 2X6 off the cut but I see I can still edge out a good 2X4. If so I start my cut there and salvage the 2X4. If I can't get a good 2X4 maybe I can drop to 11-5/8" and cut a clean 1" board using my 1-1/8" setting. If that works I cut the 1" board, land on my 10-1/2" mark, switch back to my 2-1/8" setting and saw boards to the bed of the mill.
The cheat sheet saves me time and cuts (Money!) and it lets me salvage more boards (More money and maybe a happier customer).
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 05, 2025, 08:17:28 AMI keep wanting to install a laser, the WM is $1600 and many months lead time....I even bought an aftermarket el cheap laser off the Amazon, and it's still in the box it showed up in, a couple years later. So all I have to do is install it, but just never get around to it. Now it's kind of matter of pride not having one, although I keep thinking "I ought to install it....Naw,,,yeah,,,,nah,,,maybe someday I'll find a used WM one and buy it, nah....yeah..." ffcheesy ffcheesy ffcheesy
Purchase the WM hardware for the laser installation and use your laser. I did it about a month age, instructions were included with my LT40 owner's manuals. Thanks for the great videos.
The cheat sheet is helpful when trying to estimate how many pieces a log will make. Measure the SED of a log, figure the max cant size and check the cheat sheet.
Customers often ask how many pieces a log will make. They have a cut list and don't want to cut too many logs or need if they need more.
Lots-o-good advise above. A couple more thoughts to ponder:
1) I normally sawed small end first as well. The one exception I had were logs with a big butt flair. If I was 50/50 whether or not the blade guides would clear the flair, and I was not in the mood for spending a lot of time trimming with a chain saw, I would load butt end first and assess minimum trimming was necessary to get past the blade guides. And yes, using the far end toe roller does occasionally result in long door wedges when you are accustomed to using the near end toe roller.
2) Also as noted above, repetition, repetition, repetition. No substitute for experience. The more you saw, the more you will become calibrated to your mill. Eventually, you will start making adjustments and fine tuning your cuts without even consciously thinking about them... The more sawdust you make, the more you learn.
Just my dos colones... Good luck !
Yes, all the suggestions here are accurate and now you just have to internalize all that and practice over and over. I might also suggest coming back and re-reading this thread in 6 months to pick up on some of the more subtle suggestions. It's a lot to learn and perfect..
When I first started running the LT50 I made a lot of trips down the bed measuring. It didn't take long (as I worked through a big order of 6x6's) to get in a groove. Soon I was able to just step out to the side and look down the log and level it up, splitting the difference in taper between the top and bottom. I wanted the pith level for a good center post to keep that pith down the middle.
These days I only walk and measure on finicky stuff or oddballs, or logs with a sweeping or slanted pith or other 'issues'. But that is rare. Keep the principal points in mind and it will all fall into place, then add details as you get comfortable. Once in a while you will screw up a log or make a dumb move, that too is part of the process.
There are a lot of 'moving parts' involved in milling and just setting up the log with a plan is the first thing. But sometimes you will think you made a mistake in your setup choices and it turns out to be a dull blade, or log stress which you can't see until you cut. Just take it easy and enjoy the ride.
BTW, where are you in NY? I am in Eastern Ulster Co.
I have said sawing is like driving a stick shift, tuning left on a steep inline. You have to hit the signals, brake, down shift, turn and accelerate all at the same time while watching ahead and your rear view mirror. After a while it all becomes second nature and you never even think about the different steps you are taking but at first you try to concentrate on each one independently and it is hard to remember to do them all and in the right sequence.
Tom makes a good point about coming back and reviewing this in a few months. I remember when Tyler from NC WM brought me my new mill and did a demo with it and showed me all the steps he did a good job but I did not know enough at the time to ask the right questions.
Watch videos but more important if you can is to go watch other sawyers and ask them questions. Many of the steps and short cuts they take without thinking but when you ask they can explain. Very small tips save you a lot of time and effort and make you more efficient.
Watching a good sawyer is like watching a really good waitress as she does her job. She's refilling tea and coffee glasses, removing used dishes, bringing checks and desserts and has complete situational awareness of every customer. Every step she takes produces something of value.
When the blade is in the wood you have a few seconds on each pass to think about the next step so use those seconds effectively. Good luck.
I had a Lucas but really wanted to try a bandmill. Now that I've got a bandmill I'd describe it as having 4 bodies of knowledge and skills in no order of difficulty and newness to me:
- sawing techniques
- mill maintenance and alignment
- blade sharpening and equipment
- engine , efi , ecu tuning code resolution
... but I'm getting it , thanks to FF !