Linda's 1991 Honda Accord get less than 1000 miles per year.
It had developed a really bad front end shake, so we took it to the auto shop.
Mr. Fixit installed 2 new rotors, 2 new loaded calipers, and 2 new front tires.
$520 ;)
Still shakes :o while slowing down with light brake pressure from 40mph to 25mph.
The sway bar rubbers are bad for sure, those will get replaced soon.
Anyway, what are your thoughts about the continued shakes.
Kinda unnerving driving the Parkinson Honda :-\
Take it back to Mr. Fixit and have him check for a bent rim, and not just a front one. A bent rear wheel will cause a front end shake as well, and they are more likely to get bent. I have had this happen before.
Woodbeard,
I hope it's not a bent wheel :-[
They are aluminum "American Racing" wheels.
That could be a spendy item if out of production :o
We still have the factory wheels and tires. Maybe I'll switch them to see what happens. ;)
Might also be a bad back tire.
When you slow down can you feel the breaks pulsing? Even a brand new rotor can be out of round. Break rotor warped would have been my first thought.
Does it have Rack & Pinion sterring? The shock in that system may be worn out.
The fact that you only notice it when slowing down thougth clearly points to breaks. Did anything at all get corrected after the maintenance. If it improved I would suspect a new rotor needs to be turned. I had a new rotor that was .030 out of round out of the box.
If its a tire you should not have to hit the break to feel the shake. Same with a bent rim.
Ya know, I used to work part time at a foreign car shop when I was active duty. I have to say it was one of the better shops. Everything was done right, regardless of how long or how much money it took. When we installed new rotors they were always turned before installation. I can't believe that a shop wouldn't turn them before they put them on, but then again our boss paid us very well to make sure you understood that we did things the right way the first time. I worked there for 2 years and only remember one car coming back because one of the mechanics messed something up. Not good, but not bad either.
Especially if it gets worse when you lift off the gas petal. The bent wheel is a real possibility, as is a broken belt on a tire (front or back), I backyard mechanic brakes, and haven't seen an out of balance rotor yet, but I've only replaced a dozen or so pairs in my lifetime, but it is certainly possible. Rebalance the front tires, you may have thrown a weight, although that isn't usually too bad unless there is a lot of front end wear to make it seem worse.
Are the front tires cupped? My old '91 Jetta would cup the rear tires badly if I forgot to rotate them every 7,000 miles or so. When I rotated them to the front, the shake would get pretty bad. Bad struts will do that too.
Good luck on this one, Al
Check the tie-rod ends for wear?
Quote from: ElectricAl on September 17, 2005, 08:12:31 AM
Woodbeard,
They are aluminum "American Racing" wheels.
With those wheels, the poor old thing is probably just afraid you'll take it racing :) :)
Parkinson Honda 8)....too funny
I'm with D. here.....tie rod ends or struts
CV Joint????
Ernie
CV for 'constant velocity', and is used to transfer power to the front steering wheels. Kinda sorta a universal joint.
Thanks for everyones input so far.
I hope to be able to get the Parkinson Honda up on jack stands around noon Sunday.
If anyone thinks of anything else feel free to add on ;)
Ernie,
Linda likes WOT 8)
That might explain why one of the front drive tires had a broken cord :o
What are te bearings like , cause if there shot that too will cause a wheel shake
Have you closely examined the pavement directly beneath the tires? Ours will rythmically drive your butt right up between your shoulder blades. :-\
Well, you asked if we think of anything else....... ??? ;D
A couple of things to add.Does the steering wheel shake only with the brakes applied or not?If it's with the brake applied do you have a pulsation in the peddle?If so you have a problem with rotors.It is possible that there is a build up of rust on the hub.When we replace rotors we will clean up the bub surface with a roloc disk and coat the hub with antisieze.Try jacking up the front and turning the wheel,see if it turns easy and then hard.That will tell you that it's warped.
Al,
If it shakes only while braking then the problem is in the brakes. Honda's are VERY prone to warping the front rotors if the wheels are not torqued properly. I have always been told to never turn (machine) a new rotor.Why would you let someone take steel off something you just bought ( that is kinda a ford vs chevy argument among mechanics) if it aint right when they put it on, make them put on another new one that is right!
mh
Quote from: beenthere on September 17, 2005, 04:32:59 PM
Ernie
CV for 'constant velocity', and is used to transfer power to the front steering wheels. Kinda sorta a universal joint.
I know but when they are giving up on my ATV from all our abrasive mud, we get one H--- of a shake
Al, I know you have been waiting to hear my advice, since I am such an expert at car maintenance. ;) I had a really fast Camaro a few years back, with big meats on it all the way around. I only drove it now & then. It had the same problem as you described. The car guy said it was the tires. He said that since I rarely drove it, they would get a flat spot on the bottom, and cause the car to shake. I don't know if he was kidding with me or not, but after I started driving it more, the problem solved itself.
Ok, you mechanic types can stop your laughing now. :D
Patty
It happens to me all the time. :D :D
You're right on 8)
Patty
Your car guy was kidding you not....when a car is parked up for a period of time, the weight and temperature differences "set" the tyre.
Al, does your Honda 'drive true' apart from the judder and do you have a lot of pedal travel when braking?
I'm just wondering if Mr. Fixit has installed your brake discs (rotors) correctly. You will still get judder if there is rust and other debris between the hub and discs.
As a general rule, if you want metal to move on metal, lubricate it. If you don't want metal to move, clean it.
Tim
Linda and I went for a little drive today in the Parkinson Honda.
Smooth and straight accelerating, driving and coasting from 60 to 15mph.
Apply some brake, and here comes the Parkinson's, not real bad but noticeable.
Put it up on the jack stands and checked tie-rod ends, rack and bolts, wheel bearing thrust, control arm movement and mounts, wheel weights, rolled the both tires around checking for drag or tight spot found none.
Found that the engine oil pan is a little damp though :-\, I'll get to that later.
Patty brings up a good point about the flat spot tires. Front tires were new couple days ago but they'll flatten soon enough ;D.
We try the get everything out on the road every so often. Even the good skidsteer trailer gets drug to town to keep the tires round. :D
Joe w and Timburr may be on to something. A little crud on the hub face could lean the rotor out just a hair thus making the peddle pulsate and the steering wheel wobble.
I'll have to carefully take it apart and check. Nothing like taking someone else's handy work apart and check up on them. ???
The CV boot is showing some age 8-10 years old, but less than 10,000 miles
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/CV%20Boot.JPG)
Cracks in the (Gullet ) area and grease oozing up shaft.
So, what is the correct word for the low part in the folds of a rubber CV Boot.
Here is a shot of Linda Parkinson Honda
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10297/LJ%20Coupe.JPG)
Still a nice ride for 14 years old.
Al
When my CV boots showed up looking like that, it wasn't long that the joints needed replacing.
The clue for me that the CV joints were bad, was backing up with the wheels turned, and the joints would make a clicking sound.
Just throw that out for what it might be worth.
I'm surprised the brake man didn't hit you up for fixing that boot.
Also, one experience o mine with new rotors at a brake shop, was a bad shake after the installation. Went back and was told there was a bad rotor new out of the box, and they turned it as they didn't have a new set. But deep down, I think that was an excuse for them messing up with the installation of the new ones, as their story didn't add up well to me. But the brakes worked fine afterwards.
I changed my braking habits when I learned that rotors warp due to the excessive buildup of heat when making a hard braking stop. That heat, when stopped, disapates in one spot on the rotor. So now, when I stop, I let the car continue to roll ahead very little at a time to disapate that heat around the rotor. I've found my rotors have lasted much, much longer since doing that. :)
Most times even new ones will make the sound in reverse, it's when they do it in forward to be REALLY worried! ;)
I would call the low part in the folds a valley, but don't know if there is a term. ::)
Beenthere has beenthere ;)
Great idea on rolling the disk around. :)
Moosehunter replied that Honda disks are prone to warping :(
Alright Furby, Valley has to be better than gullet ;)
Also, I just got my "Furby" edition of Sawmill and Wood Lot Saturday.
Looking good
::)
Quote from: beenthere on September 18, 2005, 08:41:35 PM
I changed my braking habits when I learned that rotors warp due to the excessive buildup of heat when making a hard braking stop. That heat, when stopped, disapates in one spot on the rotor. So now, when I stop, I let the car continue to roll ahead very little at a time to disapate that heat around the rotor. I've found my rotors have lasted much, much longer since doing that. :)
......and that officer is why I didn't come to a complete stop at the intersection. :D
Believe it or not, but, tightening lug bolts with an air wrench is the easiest way to warp rotors. Been through that and have argued with the best of tire folks about it. NO ONE tightens MY lugs with air. I use a cross wrench, no exceptions.
Warped rotors could very well be the problem. Have Linda barely push the brake pedal, while you turn the wheels and see if there are high spots. Create your own drag with her helping. Shouldn't take 5 minutes.
Fla._Deadheader,
They did jam on the nuts with air :o I saw scuff marks in to nut holes. >:(
The paper work that comes with the Aluminum wheel states to never use impact tools to mount or dismount wheel to and from hub. Also, there is a torque pattern to use.
I thought Mr. Fixit would know how to deal with aftermarket wheels. I'm starting to wonder :-\
Deadheader is right, and it drives me crazy to see someone start at #1 lug to tighten with an air wrench and bare down on it untill it won't tighten any more and then to go around the rim instead of using a cross pattern. If they are going to use an air wrench, they should lightly bump in a cross pattern before the final tighten. When I get home, I jack up and re-torque to equilize the load.
I tell 'em up front, if I can't tighten 'em on the lift, I buy tires elsewhere. Only had one place refuse to let me do it, for "Insurance purposes". That's why there's more than 1 tire store in every town. 8)
I had it happen on a Caddy. Took all the lugs loose, after finding the warp, and retightened to pull the warp back into shape. Never DID have the rotors turned.
Here's y'alls chance. I don't BELIEVE in turning rotors. ;) :)
Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on September 18, 2005, 10:10:18 PM
Here's y'alls chance. I don't BELIEVE in turning rotors. ;) :)
Huhhhhhhhh.................What if there're rough as a DanG corn cobb? New shoes will groove and wear out faster!..............Uhh..........I don't turn em' very often myself, but that's another matter. I'm usually in too big of a hurry plus I'm a cheepo. I take a few minutes to put a cheap set of shoes in and get-r-done. What's your exkewse?
Hey Al! Even with all the problems, I'll give ya $300 for the sick Honda. Just throw it on the pallet wit da planer. ;D
Another thought,When you checked the inner and outter tie rods did you have it jacked up with the wheels hanging?I've found sometimes you have to load the suspension.Such as support the lower control arms with jack stands.That way the steering linkage will be aligned the way it is most likely worn.When the suspension is just hanging the linkage is not in the normal operating position and the un worn areas of the ball and socket will be against one another making it feel tight.Don't ask how I know this,Joe
Check if you have a hydraulic steering dampener (shock absorber) it attaches from the steering linkage to the chassis. If this is worn it will cause the symptoms you describe.
Al, has the problem been solved ??
Check the front strut towers for wear, also look at your front ball joints, and tie rod ends.
My grand am did that and the tie rod end gave way as I pulled out of the drive way. It stopped at that point, it could be nasty if that happened at 55 mph
Some people who have bought Toyota trucks for years are now complaining of shimmying at 90,000 km. I see alot of 2 or 3 years old Tacoma's for sale around my area. They seem to sell fairly quick and usually have a higher resale than GM or Ford. I see some Tacoma's selling for $3500-5000 (12-15 years old). I dunno why anyone would sell a 3 year old pickup, it's just broke in. I keep mine a minimum of 12 years. ::) I've never bought foreign made vehicles (or so I thought), but they are now being made in US and Canada. My Dodge is made in Mexico of all places, many of the parts are made in Brasil. :D I've drove in those Tacoma's at work for a few years and if you don't have lower back problems, you soon will. The 4 cylenders are great on fuel though, but the 6's are pigs. ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_ISDN-Dodge.jpg)
I'd say rotors aren't worth a dam. I replaced mine and they did the same thing your describing took them off got my money back. Went to a different parts store and they've been fine for about 8000 miles now. If it drives good and only shakes when you apply brakes I'd be taking it back to mister fix it.
I had a similar problem with my 96 Toyota Tacoma pick-up. After 80,000 miles, it would shimmy when braking due to the brakes heating up as previously mentioned as a possible cause.
After a change of rotors, calipers, Midas brake shoes, etc, and not permanently correcting the problem, a trouble shooting recommendation found on the internet said to replace the stock brake shoes with heavy duty ones.
Midas replaced the brake shoes by me paying the difference in the better brake shows over theirs and its been fine since and has just turned over 185,000 miles. They tell me that the stock brake shoes that they come with are only made for light use and will heat up causing a shimmy when braking heavy. It is recommended to replace them with a heavy duty brake shoe.
I have overloads on by Tacoma, pull trailers, have it usually loaded heavy with work supplies, topper, camper, etc so that probably didn't help either.
It's a 6 cylinder and averages 20mpg depending upon the amount of 4 wheel drive use. I like the added power of the 6 cylinder.
I took a shortcut over to Hazzard, KY with the camper pulling the truck one time. Lost the breaks and finally got her stopped after a few seat creasing switchbacks and was cooling things off. The truck was attached with one of those bumper mount tow bars. The bumper brackets had broken and the only thing holding it on was those little decorative bolts into the mangled front quarter panels. DOT came by, said he had smelled my brakes and had been looking over the side for the wreck. I asked him how far down the mountain I was, "oh you're about halfway". We don't use that shortcut anymore.
Another thought several folks have hit on is overtightening, you could try backing the lug nuts off and retighten with a torque wrench. I had some animals break 2 lug studs on my Nissan one time ::). Guys like that can certainly warp the rotors.
The first few miles in our camper is fun, it usually sits at the job for months then goes to the next one. Thumpity thump thump.
My take on turning a warped rotor is that then the thickness varies where they faced the "bubble" off and then the heat gets all screwed up in there. They seem to rewarp in short order, course we got slightly different terrain. I only turn them when I oops and run the rivets in. My 3 year old truck has had warped rotors for 2 years :D
Considering the age of the car, the mileage, and the work that has already been done, there is a good chance of one of these four things.
Collapsed/bad hose hose on that side.
Stuck brake caliper (cocked piston).
Bad brake fluid with water. I might try flushing from that caliper.
Bad caliper pins/slides. Been a while since I did an older Honda, I think they are bolts/pins within bushings. If they are tightened to much (over torqued) they will bind the brakes because they become bent. I think the spec. on the last one I did was 35 pounds and I had to take it off with a cheater bar on my 1/2" 2 foot ratchet!
re:aluminum rims
Last (newer) Honda I did said 80 foot pounds of torque. Unless they were using a newer torque stick on their impact wrench the lugs are probably overtightened since the "general" use ones are 90, 100, and 140. If he was laying on the stick (hammering and going on after the first hit) the wheels are over torqued. On the smaller vehicles I would put on the lugnuts at the lowest setting (50 pounds - a light zip) and then finish with a torque wrench.
Ron,
The Honda still has the Parkinsons :-\
I followed up on the suggestions posted last Sept. Including putting all the wheels on blocks so I could get under it to check the rod ends.
I pulled the wheels off and turned them and retoqured the lugs.
Really should replace the power shafts and CV's
The steering dampner looked alright, but I'll have to unbolt it to checkk it.
Rebocardo,
The Honda got new loaded calipers and new disks and fluid all at once. However I had not heard of the studs being toqured too much. That is a thought ;) It's a 91 and has little bushings in the calipers.
Edsaws,
It might be a little late to demand new rotors ::) There is only a couple hundred milkes on it though :-\ I guess it's worth a phone call.
Modat22,
Those parts don't look to bad, but you never know when they'll brake :o
We spent $500 on the new brakes, and really don't want to spend another $500 replacing other parts that "May" be worn out :-\
The Parkinson Honda only gets driven a 1000 miles per year. Rusty disks are the biggest problem over all. We do this $500 brake job every three years :-X
So we may just put up with the Shakes for another 3000 miles :D