I'm trying to figure out where to start pricing at for mixed lots of red and white oaks, red maples, hard maples, cherrys and walnuts. Some butt logs none veneer quality. I have the hardwood market report but that doesn't help much. I'm buying small lots from small land owners and want to be fair to them and me. How do I know where to start??? ???
Thanks,
Flip
Flip, are you planning on bidding on standing timber of private landowners, then purchasing the timber for agreed upon price and then selling logs to mill yourself? So you are going to try to be "fair" to the landowner with your bid, but low enough so that you can make a profit at the mill?
Actually I'm planning on milling and drying them myself. I know the logs have to be scaled but where is there a "standard" or starting point to go off of. One of my co-workers father had some logs he wanted a bid on(small lot) I don't want to insult him and I don't want to skrew myself. Maybe use a % of the prices listed in the Hardwood Market Report??
I think the fair way to do it is take the time to figure out all of your costs, figure out how much profit margin you need to be happy, then offer the land owner as much as you can for the trees. If they accept, you are happy in the fact that you are at a point on the black side where you want to be, you will be happy that you offered the landowner as much as you could, so there is no guilty feeling, and the landowner should be happy, as they accepted your best offer. You will get more work.
Many times a landowner will think, after getting several bids on a property, that there is someone trying to steal thoier wood because of a seemingly huge difference in bids. Well, yes, that can be true, but many times is because the bidder knows his costs, knows his markets, and thats all they can pay, when the high bidder may have different markets, or maybe, just over bid because they dont know where the bottom line is.
>I know the logs have to be scaled but where is there a "standard" or starting point to go off of.
sure there is a standard, there is a standard way to grade logs, however I am sure that each grader has his own ways of grading. So a log migh be graded differently depending upon the standards of each grader/mill. The mills where i have sold my logs each have a price sheet with their grading standards clearly defined. The difference in one grade to the next is often double the price or even more. So if you don't really know what you are doing it would be extremely easy to be way off the mark.
So to accurately price a log. Measure the volume. Grade the log. And then price the log using an updated price sheet from a local mill. But if you don't feel you can accurately measure the volume or grade the log, then it is going to be very hard to give an accurate price. I think this is a skill where if you don't really know what you are doing, you can be very very far off.
Here is something that might help. I have limited experience, but I have kept accurate records of what I am getting from the mills for each species.(total of 80Kft so far) CHerry $.075-$.95(with veneer or good quality logs taken out), soft maple $.40-$60, hard maple $.69-.79. THese are the ranges I have been paid from 3 different mills. I am trying to take out alot of junky looking wood, so if you are cutting just big and straight it will be higher.
I havn't had any experience grading but the logs I have I think I have called them pretty close after we opened them up. I'm to the point where I'm going to either make this a part time business or saw what I need and call it good enough.
The local mills-just a few in my area-aren't real forth comming with what they are paying for timber for whatever reason. I talked to a guy last night that saws ties, I can buy 50 9' white oaks 10-12" diameter for about $16.00/log. That size doesn't do me much good if I'm looking for grade and quantity but is it a good price? That comes out to about .26/bf figuring 63/bf in a log.
Are there any mills that post on the web what they are paying for different species? Logs delivered to the mill.
flip
If you want some help to get an insight to yields of lumber from different grades of logs by diameter class and species, check out a publication FPL63 on the publications list of the Forest Products Laboratory. The 'standard' grades used are spelled out there as well. These log grades are seldom used but hold up well when held up to scrutiny. The yields are based on 1,000's of logs and the lumber grades haven't changed that were used at the time to come up with those yields.
Depends on how much time you want to poke into this, but it should help you make some calls on what logs will yield and using today's lumber prices (Hardwood Market Report) can give you a good ballpark estimate.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp063.pdf
flip, unfortunately most mills don't post. In my area we have a marketing board system that posts specs and prices by species for mills we sell to. We even have one mill buying veneer out in Indiana (Miller Veneers). But, that doesn't do you any good for your area unfortunately. :-\
Prices and specs for Miller Veneers (http://www.cvwpa.ca/search-results-by-mill.asp?MillID=39)
***Note these prices are for Miller's market in western New Brunswick, Canada.
You might try checking out sawlog bulletin. They have a website at www.sawlogbulletin.com
http://www.wightmanlumber.com/logprices.htm
Here are log prices for a mill in NY. They are about the only ones that post on the net and update on a regular basis. Take a look at their grades and look at a hardwood lumber price sheet. You will see that the uppers are pretty close to 1 Com prices. If you're buying stumpage you would look closer at the 2 Com prices for average timber. Just rules-of-thumb that I've noticed.
This mill has a very low opinion of low grade logs. That's why they are priced so low. That doesn't give loggers much incentive to take them to their mill.
You should know your mill costs. Profit = lumber value - manufacturing costs - log costs. If you know your lumber value and mfg costs, the rest is easy. But, lumber value will vary from log to log.
One note of caution. When looking at logs, blue indicates metal. If you're buying from landowners, a metal detector may be a good investment.
In Missouri the state publish's a quarterly log price report...unfortunately the state capital is on the International scale while the rest of the state uses Doyle. Logger reports sometimes are few and sometimes skewed....their report makes good fire starter.
Big mills are much more reliable and also indicate a trend. The Box Company out of Fayetteville, Arkansas runs an ad every week on prices paid for logs. American Walnut out of St Joseph, Missouri gives out price ranges on the phone. Few of the smaller mills will give out prices if you become acquainted with them.
Guess in the end who care's what the price of logs are iffen your making money and the landowner is happy.
I would guess prices would be lot different in your neck of the woods...I'm thinking you guys have some of that high dollar cherry while we have the black gold over here in North Missouri.
As far as your question about mills posting on the web...http://www.lovebox.com/ will give ya a price for an email. Not for sure on http://www.americanwalnut.com/
flip, beware tie logs. 10" x 10 log Doyle scale has 23 ft in it, will saw a 6x8 tie, worth $9.00, 11 inch will hive you a board or two to go with it, tie has 36 ft in it at 9 ft, I only buy 10 ft logs. Effective prices here in eastern Ky. for me would $150.00 mbf for these logs. I pay about middle of the road between the big mills here.
10" x10' x $150.00=$3.45
11" x10' x$150.00= $4.65
12" x10' x$225.00=$9.00
This will give you an idea what prices are here, don't really know if this helps or not.
P.S. These are tie quality, not real slick logs.
Are you sawing 7 x 9 ties? We're getting $21 for the oak, and $20 for the others. Most guys don't even fool with 6 x 8 stuff. Too low of a price.
No ties sawing for me, I don't have the capability to get enough material at one time to make it feasible-I would probably go cricle if I did. I'm more interested in small quantity #1s and up for what I'm doing. The reason I mentioned ties is a co-workers brother-in-law saws ties on the side and cuts and skids for land owners. He could get me logs but mainly cuts the 2nds 10"-12" stuff for ties. Too small for me :D
Flip
This is a link to the Illinois rates that may be of some help.
http://ilvirtualforest.nres.uiuc.edu/harvest/timber.htm
http://ilvirtualforest.nres.uiuc.edu/harvest/t_prices.htm