Has anyone heard of a HEAPS planer?An oldtimer around here used to have a logging outfit,and a Mighty Mite.He has retired from the mill and logging 15 years ago,but kept the planer.He never sold it before because he thought he might use it one day.Now he's interested in selling it.
I trust his word,and he said it operated well.It is PTO driven,and will tongue and groove.The biggest board it will plane, is a 6x12. It is a 4 sided planer.
Paul,
I don't know anything about a Heaps planer but if you have a chance to buy a 4 sided planer at a good price and can afford it, jump on it. this is another industry in itself. sizing construction wood and making flooring and siding will keep you busy working on other people's wood even when you have none of your own. You will be in great demand once you learn to use it properly. If he knows how, allow him to teach you, it's not as simple as one may think.
PAUL, I have a 4 sided planer that is a 6" x 18" and it also has removable cutting heads for tongue and groove. It wieghs about 12,000lbs., was manufactured in Tocoma, Wash. and it is yours for just $500.00 American. You have to come here to pick it up and take it home. I could never get the Washington Scale folks to let me haul it on my F450, even though it is capable of doing so. ;D
Thanks Tom.
He had mentioned trading wood,or working something out that would work for me.I think he would like to see it working around here again.We spent two hours going over the planer and he had alot of good info on milling and marketing locally.I'm looking forward to talking to him more about it.
I agree with you on picking up work here,as there are several small mills,but no planer.
I want it. :)
Frank, I didn't see your post.What do power it with?Could you cover it with hay,and bring it up? :D
Have you had much use for it?
Paul,
I think you will like the PTO drive. That's the next best thing to 3-phase in my opinion.
Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Woodmaster asking for info on their planer. Had a video and literature in the mail today. I was impressed.
Noble
Noble, The only problem is I don't have the high speed PTO on the little MF35 :-/ I'm sure we can rig up something,but it would have been nice to use MF.
Paul,
Are you sure it's not made for 540 rpm? The 1000 rpm pto's were around 15 years ago but weren't real plentiful (around here at least). If the PTO shaft goes to belts and pulleys it wouldn't be too bad to change speeds.
Was it originally made for pto drive or did someone rig it up?
Noble
It is for a 1000 RPM,but it is belt driven.Thats a good point.I'll look at it again to see what it would take.I think it was originally belt driven like a thresher.
I found more information on the planer.It needs a input shaft speed of 800-900 RPM under load.We have a Chev 350 with auto transmission set up to run it.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/planer_c.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/planer_b.jpg)
I dont think you will like the auto trans to run a PTO. At idle you will have very little power and if you get enouf RPM's in the 350 to lock the converter up you would be over your target RPM of your PTO. Unless you need to have a way to take it out of gear I would think about a derect belt drive set up. Or the best thing is a 3 or 4 spead stick trans so you can pick your gear, top gear at just over idle would work well I would bet with a small block Chevy that could be 60+ horse power.
Andy
Thanks for the help Andy.I will look into it further.I appreciate any information on this subject.
Would it help on the auto trans,to select low/drive?
I bet theres a goverment man from osha looking you up after seeing that planer. no cover
It definitely needs needs a little more guarding.I enjoy my work,but don't want to get too wrapped up in it.
Paul, the planer I have was run by a small block 250 Cummins. about 20 years ago. If you want it you can pay a little at a time as your use and return of time increases. That of course is with no interest, etc. 8)
Frank,
That sounds too good to let pass by.When I get a chance to head down your way,I want to check it out.
Thank you
Frank, you are a very generous man. My hat is off to you! Scott
It used to be common in our area to run little circle mills with an old car engine. One of the strangest setups I've seen was a mill pulled by an old plymouth six cylinder with an auto trans. About a foot into a fairsized log and it would downshift. The owner thought it was the cat's pajamas.
Noble
Hi Paul
The moter will need 1600 to 1800 rpm to lock up the converter so puting it in low would work but you would like a standerd way beter. Frank's 250 Cummins would do you WAY beter in fuel money in the end I bet and you would shure have all the power you could ever need! If I were you I would be on the way south to grab it.
Andy
Since automatics are way easier to find and have no clutch and have park (nice safety). What is the problem with them? I've heard they transmit 98% of the power or something like that.
As a safety thing to look at on that old planer...look at the infeed roller, is it solid or sectional? Are there anti kickback fingers dangling in front of it? I'm guessing not in both cases. We ran a 1904 planer for several years in one shop. One guy was feeding multiple pieces of narrow stock in side by side to go faster and be efficient. It spat a thinner piece back out and broke his hand. We slowed down and fed the monster one piece at a time after that.
QuoteAbout a foot into a fairsized log and it would downshift.
G'day Noble,
Now thats hilarious!! I can just imagine it kickin down. Conjoured up a great picture in my mind!
Thanks, that gave me a great laugh, even though I realise that wasnt why you wrote it!
Cheers
Charlie. ;D
KC,
I think back about that family and have quite a few chuckles myself. Someone posted a query about governors on such engines. They had a wire running overhead connected to the throttle. Just before the carriage got to the saw, they opened her wide open. The rest of the time it was set at a very fast idle.
They moved to Florida and as far as I know are still there.
I am hoping the auto trans will work out fine.If not,there is a 4speed available from the wrecker.We haven't had much time to work on the planer,we have had a few breakdowns,and have also just moved logging operations to another chart area.But times a wasting,I want to see it working within a month.
DonP,
You were right on both counts regarding feed,and lack of anti kickback fingers,thanks for the heads up.
Here is a picture of the side head knives(rusty for sure)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/planerknive1.jpg)
DonP the onley thing wrong with the auto trans is you will have a very hard time controling the RPM's with it. As for puting it in park you would need a brake to stop it first or you will rip the parking paul out of it, even if you put it in nutral it will still spin right along and not stop. It is true that you get over 90% of the power past the trans but the converter is not so nice to you untill it locks up and if it's a stock Turbo350/400 set up thats around 1800/2000 RPM. It will work just not as well as other ways that are around.
Andy
Andy, I hadn't thought about still needing a brake to stop it anyway :-/ kinda blows the advantage of an auto there since a manual and a brake would be just as good. Had thought of a JC Whitney aftermarket cruise control as a "governor". The chevy stuff is more available but for some reason Mopars follow me home. My 22 year old Ram finally let me down on the trip back this time. I was thinking about stopping for lunch at one of Bibbyman's favorites and about 20 miles out it said enuf. Its at our place in the hills with "farm use" written all over it. Got a new little Ranger today for a runabout, fits in the neighborhood better than the old Pumpkin :D
Paul,
Cool, looks like a set of V-groove T&G knives.
We retooled out square heads to round, the cutting angle on squares isn't the best...or I guess that's actually the hook. It tends to lift and break out chips. You can grind a face bevel on the knives to fix the problem just remember this changes the overall sharpness angle so the cutting bevel might need to be adjusted. Here's a link that makes that clearer than I can describe.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Knife_Grinding_and_Woodworking_Manual_5.html
On other old machinery... NEVER run an old hand feed square head jointer. The gap between bed and cutterhead that appears as the head rotates is large enough to eat your hand. OSHA banned them for very good reason. We ran a glue jointer w/power feed and square heads for some time with no problem since nobody's hands were near.
DonP,
thanks alot for the link.The page came up empty at first,and after a few tries,there it was.I have it bookmarked now.
If you find any other info,would you pass it on? I don't have a clue yet,how to set the knives.I have to pull them out to get them sharpened,but am wondering how to put them back properly :-/
The cruise control idea sounds interesting.
What do you think Andy?
Hay cruise control would do a great job for you! It's made to keep the output shaft at the same RPM not the moter and that is what you want. Good thinking DonP.(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fbeerchug.gif&hash=455ffc8effa3fc3d64bac3342a68e92cdac12d23)
Andy
You could use a driveshaft brake to stop or slow down. The old f350 series u-haul trucks are a good source for these. Or you could weld a disk brake hub to your driveshaft and go with power brakes connected to the engine. A guy up our way had a foley belsaw sawmill hooked up with cruise control and the power brakes and gear reducer, and it worked pretty good. He did have to run a HD transmission cooler though.
Welcome to the forum, trim4u2nv (longnamenocansay) ;)
That driveline brake would be effective alright.I wonder if there is a need for a break on the planer? I am new to this,but I suppose if a belt let go and was slapping us around,we would wonder no more.
We have the power plant mounted, and running.Had a hard time sourcing an after market cruise control.Found one at Canadian Tire Store for around $120 US.Went to the local wreckers and got one for nothing,it should hook up OK.
Just a little more tweaking on the power plant,then on to the driveline.The part I am most apprehensive about,is sharpening and setting the knives.
Ya after I bild things like that I stand WAY WAY back and see if things are going to fly! Just in cace!(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plauder-smilies.de%2Fsmhair2.gif&hash=7d01e6608f545c008bb4de67e84c1f04310816fd)
Andy
Sharpening is pretty easy...well, I sent out straight knives cause they had a machine to do it. Pattern knives I did in house on a 6" bench grinder by hand with a coffee can full of water. Light pressure, plenty of cooling, grind a little on one, throw it in to cool and pick up another one. There is a multi thousand dollar profile grinder but we never could swing it. Bought a few different width wheels and a dresser and made V shapes and radiuses or whatever the pattern required. Had a muslin wheel charged with emory to remove the wire edge. I still travel with this setup to do my chisels, knives and slick on the job. Guys will swear it can't be done and you will ruin some steel learning but it works. If you change the color it has drawn the temper and within a very few feet that piece of metal will fall away.
Setting,Remember I ran circle heads so you might throw this all out the window, for the straights there was a shaft welded to a bracket with an adjustable bar parallell to it. slipped the cutterhead on the shaft, adjusted the knives till they just touched the bar then tightened. Then go back and check all the bolts again! We ran corrugated knives for most patterns but a caliper should get you right with what you have. We set up a number of old machines with these and dial indicators. Is the old owner available for lessons?
The shop I worked in was near several histerical districts and we put the word out amongst the contractors that we could reproduce the old profiles. They would bring in a chunk of old moulding and I would grind them a set of knives to match and store them for future use. I cut off a slice placed it on a blank and spray painted the image on the steel. We did a pretty good trade in that. A few houses are on the register, you can get very close (course the old guy was riding a hand plane while his apprentice pulled him down the board with a rope...tolerance is kinda relative). Also ran frame stock for some of the smaller local cabinet shops as well as for our use, cabinets and furniture.
DonP
I talked with Bob(former owner)today about sharpening and setting.He has a fair idea of how it's done,but he had an older guy that would come and do it for him.But that oldtimer is in his eighties now,and lives away from here.
There is another guy that lives 1 1/2 hours South from here who has a couple of older planers,and he wants to come up this way to help out.I've known him since we were kids,but it's the busy season for both of us and it could be awhile.
Should the knives be hollow ground?Bob told me that the oldtimer insisted it was the only way to go.
Thanks
Paul
Paul, I found another planer for you. It is located in Lilliwaup, Washington. It is a single deck, 8" x 26". It need belts and has a 22v motor to run the unit. they are asking $100 OBO. They can be reached at 1-360-877-5890. 8)
Geez Frank,where do you find these things? I usually find something I need, jeeeest after another guy bought it. :-/ Where is Lilliwaup from you? I am hoping I can make a trip down your way in November?, it pretty much depends on work here,and your schedule.I would really like to check out Mobile Mfg in Troutdale as well.
I had some trouble finding information on the Dodge cruise control. I was looking for a wiring diagram for a 1984 New Yorker cruise control.I am adapting the speedo cable to fit the 77 Chev tranny easy enough(sort of anyway) but the wiring diagram would be helpfull.The Chrysler dealer was not much help,they said forget about getting any parts or information back past 95 or 96.
That kind of blew me away.I would have thought that older parts would be easier to source than that.Finally,a local mechanic found me the wiring diagram needed.
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Getting closer to completing the power plant.We are waiting on adapted speedometer cables to go from tranny to Cruise control,to speedometer.We are planning to mark the speedo at the desired speed,much like a tractor's tachometer.
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DonP
Is there much involved to convert from square to round Heads?
Gee, Paul. You got that thing anchored down? I'd hate to think about the wind blowing it out of alignment, or anything. :D
That is a serious looking power unit.
I sure like that Christmassy Muffler. I'll bet it costs as much as the engine. A muffler like that probablly has Chromed muffler bearings too. They run real smooth and are good on gas. I tried a coon tail once but must have done something wrong, it didn't help a bit.
I got a muffler just like that on my tractor. It sounds like a...a...well, it sounds like a tractor. ::)
DanG
George here,is the welder.I told him I thought it should be built fairly skookum.When I saw what he dragged out of the scap pile to build it with,I thought can we move it? :D
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Tom
I found an excellent source for muffler bearings.I order through the same warehouse that I buy my Chainsaw Antifreeze from.
George picked out the muffler too,he is enjoying this project as much as I am.Have been trying to get him to join the forum,but he said he needs to learn some computer basics first.He would be welcome I'm sure.
With that muffler and planer the you will need ear plugs under your ear muffs! 8) It will at least sound like your doing somthing. :)
Hay if I was you I would find a old truck somplace and get the tachometer out of it instead of a speedo, thay fit the same cable as a speedo. That way it will read RPM and no need to mark it.
Andy
You need to let George look over your shoulder. It would be fun to have a welder on the forum. I'll bet we have'em already, they just don't figure it's their occupation. I'm a gluer myself. Got to be able to fix box blades and such. It doesn't look pretty but I'll eventually get it to hold. :D
Tom,
I'm still working on him to join.He has helped me to improve my welding skills.On a slow day in the winter,I'll show him the basics in web surfing.It would come in handy just to search out parts and supplies.I think that once he gets the hang of it,he won't look back
Andy
I was going to use the speedometer,because it would always show the shaft speed needed.The rpms will vary to produce that speed.
What do you think,or am I off track?
I should be able to help with most welding questions. I have been AWS certified for the past ten years. did a lot of welding in the nuke plants in the off season
Well don't go anywere, I'm always breaking something. :D
No, Tom, it is called unplanned modifications. :D
Found the source of the brake I mentioned in previous post. As someone mentioned, with a automatic transmission you need some torque applied on the driveshaft to shift into park.
http://www.apwittwer.com/FEApm.html You could probably make something from and old crane brake also. Up here in Chicago you wouldn't believe the stuff like this you find at the scrapyard.
Hi Paul
I ment to just hook the spedo cable from the trans onto a tac and you will have the shaft RPM's not the moter. Find an old KW truck or just about aney truck that dont have a computer moter and it will have a cable driven tack in it. Thay are just a spedo with a tac face on them in a round housing that will fit in a flat plate dash or in your cace that chunk of tin with your temp and oil gages in it. Your cable should fit right on it. Befor I moved to Alaska I tosed at least 10 old tacs in the trash at my yard in Arizona that would have worked for you. Like you sead befor your always a day late for the good deals, like a free tac!
Andy
Paul,
Sorry to be slow to respond. A technician just dropped by the jobsite today to say he found where the mice chewed the phone cable and water got in...I'm still getting disconnects so I think he found ONE place the mice chewed.
For hollow ground vs. flat...pull up a sitting bucket and get some contestants you can argue both sides all day long. Hollow grinders claim the hollow gives the chips somewhere to go...but that's what the clearance angle does, some make a sharper cutting angle but that adds up to faster wear. In a fillet knife it can't be beat...but that's my opinion. When using a grinding wheel and cutting on the curved edge you are creating a hollow grind, the amount of hollow depends on the size of the wheel. I like to start with this hollow grind on just about everything. Let me use a chisel as an example (think of most cutters as a chisel and you'll be going back to "roots" thinking). I hollow grind my chisel so that the angle formed by the back and a plane across the edge and the heel is the desired angle. Now I go to a stone, it is very easy to feel the edge and heel contact the stone and to stay on both points with a hollow in between while finish sharpening. It is very hard to work a stone on a flat surface without rocking and making the face convex (then you are pinching the chip and working harder). This light finishing is sometimes called a microbevel and helps beef up the edge as well as remove the worst of the wire edge left by grinding. The hollow also makes hand sharpening easier since you don't need to remove material from the entire face only from the edge and heel. On hand chisels I regrind when the hollow is all gone and the flats on edge and heel have about met to make a flat grind...or more usually when I've chopped a nail or dropped it on concrete (chisels always fall cutting edge down).
That was a longwinded explanation of where I think the hollow grind comes from...in machine work I've stuck to grinding to pattern, grinding to sharpen and using the muslin/emery wheel to strop and microbevel, so all our pattern knives that I made were hollow ground. Our straight knives went out to a service that used a wheel that ground on its side leaving a flat face. I couldn't tell a noticeable difference in the molder working with straight or hollow knives in similar cuts...but it would take an ammeter,similar wood, and similar cuts with both kinds of grinds to tell for sure, I never went that far.
Switching from square to round is usually easy if you can find the same length, bore and cutting circle cutterheads.
I'm going to throw some web adresses up but haven't thoroughly checked them. I think these guys might be able to steer you in the right direction.
http://www.haskomachines.com/rkhaskew/asp/ProductDetails.asp?ID=327
http://www.menomineesaw.com/products.html
I come from the , blow a hole clean through it, school of welding...keeps me busy trying to fill em back up
:D :D
That shaft brake looks like just the ticket, and easy to "Red Green" one together.
The best show on TV, Red Green! I just dont know why all the Red Green's I have knon over the years never took the show on the road! ;D I like the brake as well! You could do it with 2, 2x4's, a gate hinge, ruber from an old tire, some rope and never forget the duck tape! :D It would work two!
Were puling for ya!
Andy
Thanks for the help and the links.I bookmarked them all,and I'm going to pass them along to another guy who is also running an older planer.
Don,
The top and bottom heads are each one solid machined piece with the pillow blocks on both ends.The shaft size is 1 5/8" phoned a place that deals in planer knives,heads etc,and he guesstimated around $5000($3000US)for each head.I think I'll stick with the old ones for now,but the side heads shouldn't be such a big cost.
Andy,
I see what you mean on the tach now.George figures he has a line on a used one from a KW.There are alot of old KWs in the area,they were popular for both logging and gravel trucks here.Out water truck is a 1968,and our off highway log truck is a 1967.Both are still going strong.
trim4u2nv,
Were still working on your driveline idea.We sent the driveshaft to the machinist today to lenghten,but the drum can be added later.
Red Green is a hoot aint he.Makes me wonder who,and how they come up with his projects.One of my favourites was when he made a poor mans HumVee from two cars taped together :D
Well we hooked up the power plant to the planer today.It has a 6' drive shaft.We don't have the tach or cruise control hooked up yet,so we guessed at 900 rpm.I figured we were getting close when the Squirrel nest blew out of the end of the blower pipe.
I was surprised how (relatively) quiet it was.I was told that my first impulse would be to run for cover,but it was quite smooth.We messed around ,adjusting,checking etc.Then we ran 180' of 2x4 through it in under 5 min.They came out very nice,better than I expected out of the stuff we fed it.
When I went to shut the engine off,George noticed the engine temperature was at 2000so we let it run a little bit and it dropped back down.
Do you think the torque was heating up?The engine didn't seem to be working hard at all.I'm wondering if an extra tranny cooler is needed?
My first gess would be that the thermastat had just opened when you looked at the gage. 2nd would be your rad needs to be roded out. Pull the cap off and look in it at the ends of the cores, if you see bildup ther it's got way more in the tube. 3rd would be the water pump impeller rusted out. For hot weather like we had in Arizona we ran 190 thermastats to slow the water down in the rad and give it tine to cool, with a 160 it just zips right in and back out but in BC that should not be the trouble. I would not think the planer would be a very hard pull for the trans and not make all that much heat but a cooler cant hert it. What kills an auto trans is siting at a stop light with the power going in and nothing going out, that power gets turned into heat that will end up in the rad.
Andy
We T&Gd 3000 LF of 1x5 Fir on Monday.I had been scrambling to have everything set up.The weather had been clear and dry,but was forecasted to change on Tuesday,to wet and miserable.
At the last minute,I grabbed my friend Glen,who is a finishing carpenter.We needed one other person,and seeing everyone else was working,I pulled my son Tom out of school for a couple of hours.Tom is 14,so I didn't have to ask him twice if he wanted to come along.I am sorry I didn't take the time to grab the camera.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paulplanertg3.jpg)
The fir was kiln dried to 7.5%,and the pitch was set at 170 deg F
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The flooring is sitting in my office,and Glen wants it to sit there for two months before he lays it down.The rest of it is in the family room.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paulplanertg.jpg)
Good lookin stuff, Paul.Glad the planer project worked out for ya. Does the back side of the boards have any "relief" ?? On the Heart Pine flooring , there are "V" grooves cut into the back. On most hardwood flooring , there is a small strip removed from the back face of the board. Does your planer do that?? What is the purpose of the "grooves"? I assume it is for relief to keep it from cupping ?? Harold
Thanks Harold,
This flooring has no relief cuts in the back.It is finished at 4 1/2",and from what info I could find,it doesn't need it.I did order a set of 10" knives to mill relief on the wider boards.The next run will be some 8" for a customer who has around 700 sq feet of flooring.
Reading the links that DonP gave me really helped in setting up the knives,and feed rates(thank you Don) There was also some debate on the need for relief cuts,some don't think it's needed. The cuts are supposed to help prevent cupping,and make it more forgiving on floors that may be slightly uneven.
Thanks, Paul. Kinda what I was thinkin, Harold
Hey Harold,the next project I want to see pictures of,is a Purple sawmill being built in Florida 8)
Yeah!!!!! You and everybody else. Ya'll will just have to be patient. Right now it still looks UGLY. Maybe I'll give ya a peek ??? Stay tuned for tomorrow's sneak preview. :D
Harold,
I'll be waiting patiently,and looking forward to it.
I found the link to that discussion on relief grooves.
Relief Grooves (http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/swmf.pl?read=216970)
Thanks, Paul. I will be looking for a 4 side planer so I can make flooring from these sinker logs. Harold
Hey, Deadheader, you can be second in line for the one I have, if Paul choses not to buy it. I would understand though if you chose not to acquire it, as I am only about 4,000 miles away. 8)
WHAT ??? You don't deliver either ???? Ya'll are being too hard on this ole man !! :D :D :D What do you figure it weighs, Frank ??
Deadheader, I think she probable goes at least 10 to 12 mlbs. :'(
DanG. I'll need helper wheels on my pickup.
Harold,
there is a Berlin 108 in Georgia.It is a moulder,and a friend of mine runs one like it .It is a Cadillac,mine is a Pinto.
Planers for sale (http://www.sawmillcity.com/used-equipment/planer-moulder.htm)
The T+G knives in my old planer can be used for either panelling or flooring. One side has the bevels for panelling while the other side cuts square. If you want flooring you put the flat side up and vice versa.
Corley5,
I forgot that you had one.I remember now,that you talked about it whenJeff came down to see you.What make is it?
It was made by Smyth Machine in Smythville NY way back when.
Mine is from way back when too,I'm pretty sure it was made in 1951.
Do you use yours very much?Is it a flat belt type?
Thanks for the listing, Paul
I haven't used it in quite a while. Grandpa and I used it to make my panelling and flooring for my house. He also made flooring for some other family members. After he first got it set up he made quite a bit a teardrop moulding with it and planed 2X4s for a couple houses. It's all flat belt driven and could use new belts. The last time I used it I spent more time than I wanted to relacing belts.
I have been crossing my fingers on the belting.Bob,the guy I bought it from,says his brother has a source for belts for their farm equipment.Apparently they can basically glue them instead of lacing.
I want to do with Cedar,what you and your Grandpa did,make panelling and ceilings.What is your planer powered by?
Harold,
You're welcome for the link.Keep us posted if you find one you like.
We use a flat belt off a farm tractor. We've used an IH 300 35hp and an IH W-6 40hp whiich is the same as an M. I wouldn't want much less on it. It takes a lot of power just to get everything turning especially on a cold morning.
The t&g flooring has sat in the house for two months now,and a couple of weeks ago we moved out so it could be layed down.
After we moved everything out of the bottom floor,we grinded the plywood subfloor to take of any linseed oil,and reach bare wood.(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_floor_grind.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_floor.jpg)
Next,we measured,and ran a chalk line to start the first run.The house is square,which helped move things along smoothly.I held the dumb end of the tape,and did what I was told,Glen did all the figuring.I asked him what happens if we get screwed up,and we are out on the other side of the house?He smiled,and said "putty".When we did reach the other side(30' away) we were out by less than 1/8".
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_floor_glen.jpg)
Glen Ashton,nailing down the first run.The floor was secured with a subfloor adhesive,and spiked with 2" staples using a rented floor nailer.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_floorlayed.jpg)
Some of the boards were 12' long,some were 8'.and the rest were various lengths,after chopping out any defect.
Hay that looks great Paul!! 8) I got a good chuckle from the "putty" thing. :D :D I herd it with a Canadians voice to it. :D :D
On one of our trips up the highway I lost a U-joint and drove on the frount driveline (after pulling out the back one) to the firest spot I could get the truck and 26 foot trailer out of the road. This spot was a small junk yard in Hixon BC just south of Prince George. I went in and explaned my troubles to the man inside. He picked up a milk crate off the floor full of brand new U-joints and started diging in it. Soon he hands me one and sead "Dont think thats it but go take a boo, Ea."??? :P :-/??? And I stand befor him trying to translate what the heck he was talking______aboot. He saw I was not takeing his drift and sead "A boo, Ea! You know like PEEK-A-BOO!" ::) ??? ::) Y'all shure can talk funny in Canada sometimes :).
Andy
Beautifull flooring Paul 8) 8) 8)
Nice job guys, that's real good to be off by only an 1/8th. Shows that the flooring was well made. I'm curious as to why you decided to use sub floor adhesive in addition to the flooring cleats.
Norm,
Glen wanted to use the adhesive as well as the nails to make it solid with no squeaks.We left a gap between the flooring and the walls,a minimum 3/8".The plywood subfloor was glued and nailed originally,so there was a solid base to work with.
We are on our second coat of varathane,but have had small bubbles.I am going over this morning to sand out for the next coat.The house has been kept near 78F while the varthane dries.I'll try to post more pictures tonight,I've just got some loaded on the bunkhouse computer last night.
Andy,
I never thought of that being an odd way of saying"quick look" but come to think of it,it's common here,oddity,I mean ;)
People are pretty helpful up North though,don't you think?If you were broke down on the side of the road,someone would stop to help soon.I've got a whole whack of relatives in the Houston/Smithers area.
Thanks for the explanation Paul, I'm an amauteur when it comes to flooring so was curious as to why. I'm always trying to pick up a few tricks of the trade from the experienced craftsmen. Sounds like the gentleman you have helping knows his stuff.
That is one fine lookin floor. Congrats to all involved. Can't wait to see it finished.
Thanks for the encouragement,and it has been a good time learning along the way.
The air bubbles I mentioned,turned out to be fuzz from the applicator,and little lumps in the varathane.A couple of cans had about an inch of sediment on the bottom from the satin finish.We ended up taking the palm sanders to the whole floor,and layed another coat down.That makes three,and one more to go on Monday.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_sandingfloor.jpg)
Glen,sanding out the floor with a big "palm sander".
It took us a better part of two days to sand down the floor.Glen ran the big sander,and I did the edges and corners with a little palm sander.Mine was 80 grit,finishing with 120.Glen ran four sandings,from 50-120.Two and a half garbage bags of sanding flour came off the subfloor,and the t&g.
After the sanding,we spent several hours sweeping and vacuuming(sp) up the house.Walls, windows,you name it,it was covered in fine dust.It looked like the three stooges had been baking bread in the house.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_floor_varathane.jpg)
First coat of varathane layed down in the office,and hallway.It really brought out the grain in a hurry.The first coat was gloss.We were told that it is harder than the satin,and is best to use on the first coat.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_fir_floor.jpg)
I see the light was poor.It makes it look greenish.I'll try for a better picture in the daylight.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_kitchen.jpg)
WOW Paul that looks great!! :o 8)
Yea pepole in the north are great! That same guy came out and watched as I put the U-joint in and soon a hole group was all watching. When I was done I was told we MUST stay for dinner so we did and after we were all fed I was asked if I would like a job working for him. I would be liveing there now if Canada had less gun laws! I stop in there and the Caribou Wood shop south of Quesnel to see frends when I pass by, hole diferent mess we had at his place once!.
Pepole are GREAT in Canada!! 8)
Andy
Great looking floor Paul, I'm really jealous. I'm still working (when I can) on sawing out the planking for the walls and ceiling and the timbers.
It's encouraging to see a nice floor like that. Did the surface of the floor match up well? I laid an oak floor that I bought from a hardwood flooring supplier a few years ago, and there was as an eighth of an inch difference in the surface.
Great looking floor Paul, the finish really brings out the wood. We have very little softwoods in our area so have not seen fir flooring before, may I ask what type of fir tree you used?
That's the same sander we used, you can't gouge the flooring with it but it is painfully slow to sand with.
Wow Paul, again, great looking floor. :) :)
Andy,
I'm not all that happy with the gun laws here either.At one time,to buy a gun,you could go to a RCMP detachment and fill out a FAC,wait a couple of weeks,and buy it.Now you have to take a course first.There were two chest stabbings in our little town in the past month,there was also a beating death last spring,in a jungle near town.No shootings in recent memory,but most here do own guns.
Eggsander,
The boards were close in tolerance.The t&g were centered so a board could be flipped over if one side looked,or matched better.When we ran the wood through the planer,we sent a few boards through till the planer was set right.Glen checked for consistency as we ran the whole works through.
One thing that caused problems at first was,I didn't have the knives on the tongue side,far enough out from the head.The knife would make the cut,then as the bolt holding the knife came around,it would bang up the tongue,and move the board back and forth.Initially,it was grinding off 1/8" off the tongue,and splintering it.
Another thing was the feed rate was too slow,and was making 14 knife marks per inch.Fir is supposed to be between eight to twelve.Too slow of a feed rate,made the chips to small to be picked up and blown out properly,so the chips were staying around and being pressed into the wood surface.When the speed was set at 10 marks per inch,there was a real improvement.
Thanks Norm_F,and dan-l-b.
The floor is Douglas Fir.It is a common tree out in the West,and is used for timbers,beams,boat wood,finishing etc.It will darken to a brown/orange colour over time,and will ding up some,but has been used for years as flooring.
That's something to really be proud of------bet Carla really likes you :-*. We refinished our oak floors and my wife really appreciated me for a while. We really like the satin finish. It'll mean so much more to you since you made the flooring as well as installed it.
Really nice having people like Glen around too.
Noble
Hey Paul. If'n ya wanna stab somebody, do ya gotta take knifin course first ???? :D :)
Noble,
How long can I expect her to appreciate me for? :DI know from past experience that it can be a matter of hours :-/
You are right about meaning a lot,knowing where the flooring came from.The logs came from our low grade rough standard sawlogs,but in most of the logs there are good clears to be had.Two people have been by while we layed the floor,and have expressed an interest in doing a fir floor.
Glen is going to use some of the left overs to build a 4x8 display for the trade fair in the spring.I hope there will be some more work for the planer from it.I have enjoyed the time working with him.
I went by the house this morning to check the last coat we applied,and there is still fine bits of fuzz all over.The first coat was ok,but these last two are disappointing.Where it was brushed on in the corners,it's great.
Harold,
Knives and baseball bats can still be bought over the counter.All three incidents involved heavy,heavy,pant soiling, drinking. :-/
When the house was raised,the plans called for paralam beams to support the weight.They are strong,but ugly and needed to be covered.While we were sanding,another freind,Dani came in and covered the paralams with some of the 3/4 x 10s that we milled and planed.They are Douglas fir,and were planed down to 1/2".He will use the rest of the material for casings and baseboards.
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_bbeam.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/paul_firbeam.jpg)
Bottom picture was taken right after the beam was sheathed.It needs a molding to hide the uneven drywall
I will be putting in some fir flooring myself in this spring or summer and have a question. My house is newer and was made with two layers of partical board. how thick would the T&G have to be to not use sub flooring and go directly to the joists? I was thinking maybe 2 x 8????
Wow! Paul. When the word gets out you will have more business than you can handle. 8) I am really inmpressed. Excellent idea on making the t& g centered so that you can flip the board.
Rob, I am likeing your idea of using 2" rather than the 1" you were speaking of earlier. There is much more stability that way and much less cupping to occur. 8) Let me know when you want to begin the sawing. ;D Also, consder not T & Ging the ends for your rustic affect. Make sure too that you allow 10" of trim on your logs.
Great looking floor Paul, planer's paid for!
Floor finishers used to use a wide brush? Dad talks about one job he went out on the deck right after they had been finished with a strong solvent varnish, the house was full of fumes. Someone had flicked a cigarette into the sander flour pile right outside and it caught :o, made for a few tense moments.
Rob,
I've done both 1-1/2 thick and 3/4 and worked on lots of old houses with 3/4 directly applied to the joists (over crawlspaces this stuff is always cupped). The best floor is 3/4 over a subfloor. With the 8/4, we have done 2x6 on 4x joists @ 24" and even 32" centers and broken over a joist. With the narrow oak strip the old timers broke anywhere but the next strip was right there to reinforce it, even so they made a "softer" floor.
Don,
Your talking over my head a little,
"With the 8/4, we have done it on 4x joists and broken over a joist."
What is 8/4?
I assume the Broken over a joist means where you end one plank and start the next???
I appreciate all the details I can get.
centering the tounge and groove is great for flippin the board, but I bought a matched set of cutters and they are designed to lower the tounge so there is more wood for future sandings. also the tounge is rounded so starts better. and here is the best part, the bottom of the groove shaves an extra 64 th off so that the top always comes together before the bottem. I got them from grizzly, they did cost but seems to be worth it you just give the boards a once over and edge with the best side up.
Millsy,
I'm sitting here holding a piece of Dixon Flooring's oak strip. When they were running over in Galax I've heard they made a large percentage of the flooring used in the US. It is a lowered radiused tongue, relieved lower edge on both tongue and groove edges with radius on those 2 bottom corners, 2 relief grooves on the bottom. One other thing, it has a slight groove cut above the tongue into the body...almost like dragging an awl along the top of the tongue would make. I've been told its to make a place for a staple crown to sit.
Rob,
Sorry, by 8/4 I meant 1-1/2" thick, the flooring we've used in some cabins for the upper floor is 2x6 t&g with a v groove on the bottom. This is laid over typically 4"x8" joists spaced 24" or 32" center to center. The pieces must land in the center of a joist to have support for each end. I'm not a fan of this type of floor. Wide plank flooring on plywood typically gets a fastener every 4" or so, narrow strip goes 6-8" between fasteners. This way you get 1 fastener at each joist :-/, we use screws here. Can you just put 3/4" plank flooring over the existing?
DonP,
I think we would have been better off using brushes instead of the applicators made by Flecto.Before we put down the last coat today,I ran them through the washer&dryer,but still had fuzz coming off.
I was wondering the same thing. Why Rob couldn't lay the floor on his existing floor.I am by no means a carpenter,but if the staples would hold to the particle board,it should make it stronger.
Was also wondering if you could see any problem with glueing down the flooring?
Woodmills,
That sounds like a good knife profile,I'm going to look into getting a set made up from the outfit that makes our knives.The set I'm using now has a round edge to the tongue,and works well now the bolt isn't coming behind and crushing it.This machine can adjust the height of the tongue,I like the idea of dropping it for more sandings.
Where can I find grizzly knives,do they have a website?
Don
I can go over the partical board, was worried about it holding the nails.
Try Grizzly.com
Be warned, once you get on the web site it is hard to stop looking...
Paul, ask for a catalog. Their's is one of the nicest around. You won't be able to put it down for hours. :)
They haven't sent me a catalog in years...come to think of it neither has Victoria :-/ I need to change my spending habits, I'm getting boring junk mail. A Graingers can take a month of sittings in the reading room to go through.
Ron,
Is it really particleboard, sawdust and glue
or osb, chips and glue? I just went over to the NOFMA website and you're right particleboard isn't an approved subfloor, osb however is. It was under the frequently asked questions. There's alot of info on their site.
http://www.nofma.org/index.htm
Dad always used "deadening felt", tarpaper without the tar, it was gray and softer than tarpaper. Everyone I see now uses 15 lb tarpaper underlay. I've wondered about using subfloor glue...let us know how it does. Have any of you other guys done it that way?
You guys are right about getting lost at Grizzly's.I was looking at their metal lathes,would really like to have one,have been looking for a used one at a good price for a long time.
Probably should have a shop to put it in first.Now I'm starting to feel sorry for myself :P
on flooring use tar paper to help stop squeeks. the back relief I think is to help the floor lay flat against irregularities and is almost a must on wider pieces. I produced much of the flooring in my previous house along with the window moulding, as well as flooring for customers. I thought about using the biscuit joiner on the ends where boards butt to each other but never did it, I just try to set the chop saw very square and use a fresh blade. I have used a zinseer product as a finish it is a 2 part urethane, If i remember it is called target "puppy proof" floor finish.
Yep, dust and glue. I don't like the idea of having to tear it up, but really don't like the idea of having to pull up planks and then tear it up. I have some time befor I have to decide, just don't want to regreat doing or not doing something.
OR_Rob (re. flooring project)
If the two layers are not glued together, then removing one and replacing with plywood or OSB should work for nailing the flooring. If when removing the top layer particleboard you find that the sub-floor is OSB PS2, then you can drum sand the joints and lay the flooring on it (Here's hoping the two layers are not glued).
If the two are glued together, not much hope but for a lot of work sawing everything loose around the edges of the room, ripping it off the joists and then (I would) put down a new subfloor of either plywood or 3/4" OSB PS2 rated, according to Bruce Hardwood Flooring Mfg's recommendations at
http://www.armstrong.com/resbrucewoodna/index.jsp
Wish you luck in your decision.
Paul:
The pictures look great. I showed my wife. I have been trying to convince her that the bedroom floor in the new house will be cvg doug fir. She said it looks beautifull. I am having a hard time convincing her. I have some old growth logs that have a large pitch ring but I think I can cut nice boards inbetween the rings.
What thickness was the rough cut lumber and the finish size. I was thinking of cutting it 1in and finishing at 3/4.
Loren
I think she will like it.Carla likes the look of the Fir,and knows it will darken.Other floors we've seen,still hold up well.
Is there much meat on the outside of the rings on your logs?We had a block last Spring that had a lot of pitch ring.It screwed us up a bit for the 7x10 x20' order,but we got a lot of good clear, smaller dimensions out of it.
Good luck on the house.
When Are you bringing those logs over for me to cut your flooring, Loren. :D I can cut around that sap ring very easily.
Easy now Frank!
I should be ready by mid Feb.
I know, you blade is set and the decks are clear!
;D
Frank
I don't know how to get them on a trailer so that I can bring them to you. If I knew how I would put a picture of them on this site. Youve seen them but they are 64inchs on the scale end. I had four logs from the same tree. The gross scale was almost 10,000 bd ft. I've got acouple great bid cedars too.
I have one cedar that is curved we might use your slaber on that one Frank.
Loren
We had a different kind of day with the planer.The guy with the 1x8 phoned me the other day,and said he was going to take our advice,and kiln dry it.Could we t&g it for him? He had bought the wood from a small mill that went broke a while back.
The weather was cooperating,so we set it up for today(Wednesday).I put a set of sharp knives on,and we were ready.
This morning it was snowing,and the truck was bringing the wood in from a town an hour and a half away.When it got here,it wasn't tarped properly,and was wet and covered with road sand.Glen tried to talk me out of planing it,but I didn't want to leave the customer stranded.We cleaned it best we could,and after a slow start,we ran it through.
2000' later,my knives were wore down,and chipped up :-/.You could see how the finished face had gotten rougher as it went along.The t&g was fine.
Glen counted one nail,and several staples that came out the other side.I was feeding,but hadn't noticed any metal.
I learned something today. 1. Next time specify clean wood,or it will be refused,and keep our own wood from our mill off the ground at all times.
2.Keep Rolaids on hand.
Hey Paul
Do you still have/run this set up?
Buzz,
Yes we still run it and have got things tweaked and running better.Heads have been built up and re-machined and new bearings all around.
This year so far we have only S4S 2x6 & 2x8, and V Grooved 3/4 Cedar panelling.
Well, I rounded the bend today. As I was rounding the bend, I saw a molder sitting on one of the local loggers gooseneck trailers. As my truck slid into his yard, I hopped up and was admiring his find. I asked him what he was going to do with it, "I'm taking it down to the scrapyard tomorrow, should bring about $400" I asked if it ran, and he said it was running in the furniture plant a few years ago, no heads came with, but the discussion was on :D. It has 3 phase motors and I was kinda skeptical about building that big a rotophase..."Oh we got one of them too, figured it would fetch another 3 or 4 hunnerd for scrap" We went to his buddy's house to peruse that find, it's got a 40 horse single phase running a monster Allis Chalmers 3 ph, its about 7 feet long and wound up upside down on his trailer, so I couldn't look too good, but I figure the 1ph 40 is worth the price of the whole deal. Michelle is shaking her head, I came home and told her I just bought 7 tons of old iron...now I just need to figure out how to unload it. Its a Vonnegut, if any of you have parts sources, I'm sure I'll be looking.
Right on 8)
I hope there are some pictures comin.
Shoot,ya gotta start somewhere. That AC stuff was built good
Vonnegut Link (http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=356)
Don,is this the machine?
Don P., no offence, but you are beginning to gain and the volumn of scrap some us collect from one another. You and David Gilman are running neck and neck for first place. I will have to get him down here again to see what else I can pawn off onto him. 8) 8) 8) 8) :D
I hear you Frank, I'm glad I "saved back" that too big blower she wanted me to get rid of. It weren't too big, I just needed to add to my empire :D.
Dail, the AC motor on the rotophase is a beast, it would take 2 men to reach around that thing. It looks like one of those big old slower rpm models. I think I'll have to have a talk with the power co engineer before I throw juice to that thing, I could see lines falling off the pole ???
I'm not sure of the model yet Paul, http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=357 is the same layout as the machine though. That one in your link is LOTS purtier. It does have sectional feed and the cranks all seemed to move freely. One motor had been gutted, I've done work for the owners of the local rewind shop, so hopefully...
They were going to try to flip the phase converter tomorrow with the knuckle boom at a nearby sawmill and then we'll try to unload after work tomorrow. I've got some locust 6x8's and some pipe and there's a winch on the front of his gooseneck to spot it off the dovetail. We had rain today so it might be yard art for awhile if we can't go off the driveway.
Question of the day,
The "phase converter"...isn't, its 2 3ph motors connected by a belt, a 48 and a 75 ??? If I spin the big motor off a gas motor, is it a generator?
We had another inch of rain yesterday, got stuck pretty good. A neighbor is bringing a backhoe tonite, but the molder is here 8).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/molderback.jpg)
Well, Tony said "it took an act of congress, but we got 'er done".
We first buried his truck and trailer, my tractor and truck, and we decided we needed bigger stuff. He brought out the knuckle boom and tried to lift and slide it off the dovetail. The trailer had kinda come to a rest at a slight angle and when 10,000 lbs hit the matchsticks we had put in the stake pockets...well lets just say it wasn't looking pretty. He went back and got the dozer and first pushed the molder back on the trailer, then chained to the uphill side while Lewis ran the boom and Larry worked the winch on the trailer...nuthin to it ;D. I guess I'll build the building around it :D.
It is the 12" Vonnegut. While I was searching info on the internet I found out that #1 Kurt Vonnegut wrote lotsa books, and he is the great grandson of Anton Vonnegut, the founder of the molder company. We had a Vonnegut sander in one shop I worked in, but I guess I'm slow, I'd not put 2 and 2 together. Anyway, I learned lotsa literature so far and 2 hits on the molder. I think I'll e-mail the guy on the OWWM site that has one and see what kind of info he has.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/molderfront.jpg)
This pic is from the infeed end, that's a Mt Dew can for scale.
Its a push feed molder as opposed to a thru feed machine. The front 3 handwheels are all part of the feed and front guide assembly, the drum switches on the lower front are for the heads and feed motors, 2 forward speeds, 1 reverse. , then the heads are in order, top, left, right, bottom. The last patent date is 1925. I wonder how many miles of wood has been through this thing.
Hey Don,
If you can paw around the mill where this came from,ya might get lucky,an find the heads
Good stuff Don,you've got it home where you can keep running outside to look at it. ;) What is the difference between a pushfeed and through feed?It sounds like both types have power feed rollers (?)
Dail, Larry is my "inside man" he's trying to come up with some heads. He's got a stand of trees and a desire for a housefull of framing and trim ;)
A pushfeed has the feed unit at the front end and shoves the wood through from there, its the way all the older machines I've seen worked. I ran a SCM 5 head throughfeed for awhile in one shop, there are feed rollers all the way through the machine. They are acting as hold downs and feeders, less jams and better hold down too, its the way most newer machines work...more complicated though. This one does have sectional feed rollers though, pretty hi tec for its day. I have been going down to admire and oil/twist screws/ inspect/ scratch my head.
Our maid of honor from 21+ years ago was up for a visit, nothing like 2 females rolling their eyes at a guy :-X :D.
Quote from: Don P on August 12, 2005, 11:35:30 PM
A pushfeed has the feed unit at the front end and shoves the wood through from there, its the way all the older machines I've seen worked.
So what do you do for that last board? I'm guessing you would have some waste on the end from pulling it through?
Furby
We'd send a slave board through to poke out the last one, and then back the slave out backwards. Sometimes it was a little chewed up and marked with the power roller tracks, but not bad.
smiley_thumbsup
Got ya!
Hey Don P
Whats doin with the planer...ever get her rollin? Or 3 phasing?
Nada Buzz, I can't even move the 40 horse yet to make the rotophase. I made some horses for tables at the CF benefit auction tomorrow and will be going. Our local crane guy has donated 3 hrs crane time, I'm hoping to bid only a little above retail :D.