The big beam project goes on. Some pics of the second big log for a 12"x12"x24' beam coming out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11572/DSCF0013%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11572/DSCF0014.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11572/DSCF0015.JPG)
I'll show more pics when cutting it up JP
Neat trick with the log arch there
Nice job laying the tree down, was the hinge bored to reduce wood pull?
Good Job on the photo posting as well JP!!
Kevin: I wish I could say yes but the cut was about any way i could get it with a 16" bar and a 28" tree // also missed my target by about 10 deg -but dont tell anyone /// :D :D JP
JP;
Do you know why the tree missed the intended lay by 10o?
Because it was 60 on Saturday and 70 on sunday when it finally fell?
Sorry fellas, I can hep maself sometimes. ;)
JP
We could tell (but won't), by the way the tree rolled off that one 'standing' out there. But it was close to target.
Using a short bar does have it's drawbacks, but I'll bet Kevin has some good suggestions that we all can learn from (at your expense and good pictures). Always easier to look at what happened and come up with what could have been done, but that's called good experience.
At least that one tree that got nailed is still standing (or doesn't it have any branches at the top?). :)
Good one Jeff B :D :D
Kevin, best way to reduce barber chairs ...saw backcut slowlyyyyyyyy so tree will just lay down instead of let go all at once. Good wedge cut is important too...duh!
The best way to eliminate barber chair is to reduce the tension wood and always use a face cut.
If you cut slow on a tensioned tree it will want to blow up in your face.
Cutting large limbs out of the top of a tree is a good example of this even with an under cut.
Pine just blow out when the chain hits the top of the limb due to the high amount of tension caused by all the weight hanging straight out from the tree.
To reduce this tension an improved jump cut can be used to reduce most of the stress in the limb and it becomes a non event.
It's much the same when falling a large tree with a lean, all that weight is pulling on the fibers within the tree, thus the need for boring the tree to reduce all that tension.
It's also important to have a face that's wide enough to allow the tree to fall far enough without having the face close because if closes prematurely and the tree stops falling it could easily barber chair out the back or pull the entire root system from the ground.
If you miss a lay it's good to know why?
"The best way to eliminate barberchair is to reduce the tension wood and always use a face cut."
Kevin, could you explain a little more about what this means ??? Mainly what you mean by a face cut.
The face cut is the notch in the face of the tree which will be facing the intended lay.
It could be any one of the common felling notches.
I have seen where people will just start cutting into the back of a tree without notching it because they don't know what they're doing and the tree will most always split up the back due to the tension inside the tree.
The bigger the tree the more dangerous it becomes.
Never head it refered to as simply a face cut....thanks for straightening that out ;)
gee, dint I say what kevin did with less bandwidth?
my understanding is that with a tree that has barberchair potential, you should make the backcut as fast as possible, not as slow as possible.
Have a sharp chain and make the back cut fast. Don't give it time to split 8)
Quote from: floyd on November 04, 2005, 11:46:49 AM
gee, dint I say what kevin did with less bandwidth?
Nope, actually you said to cut slowly which from everything I have heard or been taught is wrong. Kevin can use all the band width we have if the explanation might help just one person from getting hurt. Kevin works with "problem" trees everyday. Its his job.
One of my customers was telling me the contractor from next door was telling him the best way to cut a tree was to place several back cuts in it, I'm not sure if he uses a notch.
I'm sure he believes this to be true only because he hasn't been instructed how to do it right.
The worse part is someone might take it for granted and try it someday.
Kevin: I have a lot of "big" Pines to cut so im going to ask a bunch of questions it will take a couple of days to think about then ill be back//
several things now :: In say a 24" butt how big or deep should the hinge cut be??
almost every time I start the hinge is not level-- tip down even when I
pull it up "more than enough" its still down then I start at the edge of the notch and "trace" around the tree ,then make the back cut// sometimes it works good sometimes not so good. ( all this with a short bar//) I suspect with a 24" bar I could go streight in on the back cut// any sugestions greatfully accepted--JP
JP;
Have a good look at the tree first and take your time, you can even go back and take a second look if you want but once you start cutting you are pretty much committed.
PPE always, (personal protective equipment).
You want to look at how the tree is standing and where the weight is.
Don't cut anything in the wind because you'll lose any control of the tree.
A normal hinge can be placed 1/3 to 1/2 the diameter of the tree.
The deeper the hinge the easier it is to lift the tree with wedges but don't go beyond half way into the tree with a hinge.
You should always have a few wedges on hand and use them when ever you can, larger trees give you the room needed to place your wedges.
A longer bar is best but you can get by with a short bar in most cases.
You can put layout marks on the tree if you want, score the marks with the saw then make your cut until you get a good feel for doing it.
Use a level to scribe the marks if you want, there are no rules here.
You have to get the corners of the notch to line up exactly with the lay, when that happens most of the work is done.
Gunning sticks get it right every time.
The notch also allows you to look at the wood inside the tree before you place the felling cut.
If the wood looks the same across the tree you shouldn't have a problem.
Never cut through the hinge wood, that's what controls the tree.
If the tree is straight and well balanced equal hinge wood across the stump is what you want.
With a shorter bar you can start at the back and work into the tree a little at a time from both sides placing wedges in the back cut at the first opportunity.
As the back cut progresses the wedges can be driven into the tree to support it and help lift it towards the lay.
If your bar is deep into the tree and you are almost near where the hinge should be and you can't drive the wedges into the tree to raise it that's telling you something and you should reconsider your options.
As long as the wedges are advancing with the back cut and the corners of the notch line up with the lay you shouldn't experience any surprises.
We are talking about a well balanced tree falling straight to the lay here and anything other than that will change the way you cut the tree.
Trees can always be pulled also with the proper equipment but the cut is still important.
Watch for anything above that could break from not only the the tree you are felling but from any adjacent trees and always brake the saw and walk back on an angle away from the tree when it begins to fall.
There are many good courses on felling timber and I would ask that everyone here at least think about getting proper instruction.
Thanks Kevin --All good advice--most of the time Im ok with the 16"ers-doing as you said--it seems that when the tree gets big trouble starts--ill take it slow on the next one and see if it will go better--After snow fall I have 5 30-36" x 90+ft pines to take out. I plan to have some help, incl a 24" saw--hope to take lots of pics--should be fun. JP 8)
Well, heck, Jeff, taking time on backcut has worked for me bout 30 yr now. Maybe I have just been lucky?
Floyd
It just might be the difference in the timber you are cutting down that makes it that way.
Possibly our hardwoods have more lean and more weight off center than the big softwoods you are (I'm guessing here) cutting down.
QuoteIf you cut slow on a tensioned tree it will want to blow up in your face.
Floyd;
I'm talking tension trees.
If you get a good sized leaner with a build up of tension in the trunk you don't want to slow dance with it .
The best way to handle it ...usually... is to bore it and leave a back strap.
If you are going to cut the wood through to the hinge you better get on it and get it done or you'll wear it.
It's imperative you keep up with the wood splitting out in the back of the tree where tension is apparent.
There's a long history of this happening and people getting killed not knowing.
If it isn't large enough to bore then you can V out your holding wood in the back cut and relieve the tension.
Your input is valued here, everyone benefits from these conversations.
Have you had any formal training? Most people haven't.
I know I'm not done learning when it comes to falling trees.
I you are having trouble with your face cut lining up, especially if it's big tree / small saw stuff remember you can allways recut it slightly bigger / deeper / wider angled so it's correct. Spend the time to get the face cut correct or everything you do after that is going to be dodgy too.
I'm with Kevin on using bore cutting and a holding strap if the tree is leaning or under tension. It allows you to set up the hinge wood carefully without worrying about the tree letting go early or barberchairing. Cutting the holding strap is an event of course, it's holding the weight of the tree so when it lets go it's with one heck of crack 8)
I have no real worries dropping trees 2X my bar length and getting them where I want them, just plan everything and take your time setting up the initial cuts. Like Kevin says you can scribe some marks in the bark to help line up your cuts, I still do that on a big tree ;)
I dont think cutting fast or slow is going to make a big difference if the trees going to split out. While it might have some effect I sure wouldn't rely on it.
Cheers
Ian
Perfect example right here. The guy that bought the campground where we do the Logging-Sawing, Had a curved growing Live Oak. It had a sweep of about 50°. He found a Magnolia that was curved, that ED and I had sawn table slabs from. Well, He took it and made a bench out by the river, for the campground tenants to sit on.
He figured more of the same would be a neat idea. ::) ::) He showed me the standing tree, and I told him DO NOT stick the saw on the back side of that tree.
This guy knows everything, sooooooo, he cuts AT the tree. Made a small face notch, touched the back side and the tree splits. It missed his head, took the saw out of his hands, threw it about 30', and then the tree proceeded to fall with a twist, right on top of a $10,000.00 4 X 4 atv Mule type Cub Cadet tractor thingy. ::) :o :o :o :o
Next day, he took his Airboat out and was horseing around, and broadsided a Cypress Tree. ::) ::) Broke some ribs, punctured a lung, spent 4 days in expensive care, and his girlfriend has a shattered knee and a broke leg.
YUP, some folks should NOT be allowed to own stuff. ::) ;) :) :) :)
my bad, Kevin, missed part bout tension trees. My training was old fallers when I started 30 yr ago.
Much of my falling is on steep ground. Softwood sent to sawmills so America can build homes etc.
We cut alot of 42' logs. Used to be a great export market , got $1K /mbf. Those days long gone, Mills have re-tooled & no longer can handle much over 30 " on the butt.
Have treelengthed alot of ton wood out of my woodlot with my hooligans(horses). down to a 4" top.
Ton wood market took a dump too.
Age has caught up with me. Mostly farm with the hooligans now...can sit on my butt that way. Yrs of following a compass, doing inventory, & cruising timber have left their mark on me too.
Quote from: Kevin on November 04, 2005, 08:23:06 AM
JP;
Do you know why the tree missed the intended lay by 10o?
The tree never went to GOL school. :D ;D :D ;D
Quote from: Kevin on November 04, 2005, 06:18:18 PM
If you get a good sized leaner with a build up of tension in the trunk you don't want to slow dance with it .
The best way to handle it ...usually... is to bore it and leave a back strap.
I took a few pictures that illustrate what Kevin is talking about and put em on this old thread.
Directional Felling (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=%3Cbr%20/%3E1a191966492290dc563a6348d856a1b2&topic=6266.40/)
Kevin and I differ on few items but were together on the major concepts.
Few loggers around here cut in straight from the back as fast as possible with a big bar on an 066. There chasing the tree to try to avoid splitting or a barberchair. I've seen couple still sawing when the tree was almost on the ground. Guess they like to live on the edge...eventually they will eat a tree...usually a big un.
Getting back to stump shot ;D ...
If OSHA is recommending incorporating a stump shot into the felling cut and the Swedes GOL is instructing the fallers not to use it and an accident occurs where the tree kicks back and injures the faller will OSHA rule that as an error in felling practices and hold the faller responsible?
Kevin, stump shot was not officially taught at GOL training I received. Soren just sorta threw it in, along with few other amazing things. As I understand it, GOL was developed with input by OSHA, insurance companies, major timber companies, and the thoughts of the best loggers in the country. In Missouri ya don't cut on public land unless you have the training or are under the direct supervision of somebody that has been trained. Also you have to be re-certified every 3 or 4 years. I lost my certification few years ago by not taking updated classes....so can't say what they are teaching today. Training costs are highly subsidized by the private sector in an attempt to keep government regulation at bay and workers comp rates in check.
I learned a lot of felling techniques vary by region...never see a humbolt notch...no big pine, sometimes a conventional notch, open face is really getting popular due to GOL training, and I hope the cut and run crowd learns something.
You ever been to the training? I figure you could probably teach it.
Thanks for the compliment.
I haven't had GOL but I've had two others approved by the Ontario government ministry of labour.
I may be getting an instructors licence this winter to train the guys where I work , the boss is working on it, we'll see what happens.
Kevin, what are gunning sticks ??? Lots of good info. being tossed around this thread ;)
Gunning sights are on the saw which Larry illustrates in his prior post of pictures and gunning sticks, these can be sticks, a measuring tape or just about anything you can make a V with.
I'm going to look at some trees today so I'll get a picture of the gunning sticks I made.
My gunning sticks are two wooden sticks hinged on one end and when you open them up it forms a V.
The pointed end of the V is directed exactly at the intended layout where the tree has to drop and the open end is held against the tree where the corners of the notches must be placed.
The corners are marked on the tree, the notch is cut and then the felling cut is made up to the hinge wood.
With the gunning sticks the corners of the notch are square to the lay, get that right and cut the hinge right and the tree will drop where you want it .
You can use the sights on the saw for this as well as long as you pay attention to the cut and where the sights on the saw are directed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/gunning%20sticks.JPG)
The red V are the gunning sticks placed one third onto the face of the tree where the corners of the notch will be marked.
The red line is where the tree needs to be dropped.
Thanks I too wanted to know about gunning sticks. Know here is an experience with a tensioned tree.
Yesterday afternoon I cut a highly tennsioned oak that was about 14 inch diameter. I made a small notch (Saw started to bind on the small notch :o) To me the tree was not big enough to to bore leaving a back strap, so I studied the situation chose the safest location and SLOWLY started the back cut releasing the tension. I did this at full arms length from the side of the tree. Sure was a mess I lucked out because it did not do the classic barber chair.
Was this real stupid ???
max
Larry mentioned open face cuts - I've used those for about ten years now and very seldom missed the mark I was intending on unless I misjudged the weight of the limbs. Open face notches are different from a traditional notch -they allow the tree to stay on the hinge almost all the way to the ground. Instead of a 90 degree initial cut, you cut a 45 degree cut up, one third of the way through the tree, and then cut a 45 degree down to meet your initial cut. I forget who introduced it originally - could have been the founder of Stihl saws. It do work well!
These are my gunning sticks, placed against the tree 1/3 the trees diameter and aimed at the lay the tree is marked at both ends of each stick.
This is where the corners of the notch must be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/gunning%20sticks1.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/gunning%20sticks2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/gunning%20sticks3.JPG)
Max, that's not a good idea.
If the saw is already binding in the notch that tree has already started to lay down.
If that happens you might consider getting a rope up in the top of the tree to hold it in place while you finish making the cuts leaving a hinge then slowly release the rope.
If you get the notch made without it closing up on your bar then the holding wood can be cut on a V to release most of the tension wood prior to cutting up to the hinge.
Kevin the pics of the gun sticks and the level are great// should solve most of my problems. ill have a set tomorrow..JP
Hey There JP
I think handling that big log with "small equipment" is just slicker'n a snotty doorknob. It's right along the line of doing much with very little. We-uns who work virtually alone in the backwoods have to be somewhat innovative on many ocasions just to get a chore done.
More power to ya' bud.
If your tree is pretty well balanced, your corners are marked square to the lay using the gunning sticks and you leave an equal amount of holding wood across the hinge on both sides of the tree you should be able to wedge it over no problem directly into the lay.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10030/gunning%20sticks4.JPG)
Pretty slick sweatshirt ya got there Kevin!
Thanks for all the instructions in this thread, sure helps me to see how the pros do it. :)
Thanks Norm;
I ripped that off an old bearded guy at the pig roast.
He had a bad back and couldn't straighten up so it was easy to pull it over his ears and walk away as he wasn't able to run after me. :D
Ar Ar :D
it seems that this subject is not new ::)
I posted this little tale from the book Tall trees, tough men elseware but think its fitting here:
Told by an old woods boss on the upper Connecticut river about 100+ years ago
The new man claimed he could use an axe, so Tom put him to work swamping out a road.
During the day the boss came onto him as he was attacking a yellow Birch about 6" in diameter. He was nibbling all the way around the tree, like a beaver. Tom was so thunderstruck he couldn't even swear. Finally he heaved a big sigh and said in a polite voice to the man, "which way do you think it'll fall?"
"How the hell do I know which way it'll fall Retorted the axeman. "I came up here to work in the woods, not be a G—damned Prophet" // JP
I have seen beaver cut trees with good results, I didn't realize some people thought they were smart enough to do it to :P
BTW I will bookmark this thread it has more good info than I can assimilate in one sitting 8)
QuoteI have seen beaver cut trees with good results,
And sometimes.... ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/archives/animals1/beaver4.jpg)
;)
Ian
Darwinism at its finest. :D