My brother told me about this--he lives a mile and a half away from the site of this attack. He's not letting any of his kids out alone after dark, or the dogs for that matter.
Check it out...
Cougar Attack (http://www.wwmt.com/engine.pl?station=wwmt&id=21724&template=breakout_local.html)
Nasty. I notice the horse was 20. I wonder if a younger animal would have been more alert and been able to escape. Cougars tend to jump on their prey and go for the neck or throat.
lots of cougars in my neck of the woods. and from what i've witnessed and heard about these animals would lead me to believe that the cougar was in bad heath itself. a healthy adult cougar should be able to take an old horse, no problem. we just had a recent attack a few miles from where I live. the cat supposedly felt that one pig was not enough for dinner, so he killed like 5 or 6 and then after he drug these ones off to cover up for a later meal, he went after like three more that got away but they were already back at the house all scraped up. I once heard a cougar take down and choke out what seemed to be a large large animal. probably a mule deer, as I see the remains these cats leave behind my house near the creek. when I shined a light into the thick forest, a fairly small cat came out of the trees, maybe 40-60lbs, I was shocked because the sound of the scuffel in the trees was definately with a larger animal.
They are very prevelent around here at this tiime. I have had some right near the mill area and on the drive to the mill site. The Bobcat are very popular around here for me. They help keep the ground squirrel population in check along with the cats that folks like to haul to the rural areas 8) 8) 8) and leave in hopes somone will care for them. :'(
So does anyway know if there are different species of cougars, or is a cougar a cougar the world around? I know sometimes they're called catamounts in other parts of the country, but I'm just wondering if these cougars in Michigan are the same as the pictures I've seen in, say, National Geographic. Apparently, there's been a raging debate as to whether or not cougar sitings in Michigan were simply escaped "pets" ::), or actually signs of a breeding population. From what I've read online, it sounds as if they're beginning to believe that there is a breeding population here. :P
Interesting - I have seen a mountain lion here (puma it is called) - thankfully there were bars between it and me! Looked just like the pictures I see up your way.
The Jaguars are something else.
Cougars, mountain lion, puma, whatever, their all the same cat.
Though they are actually fairly large, cougars are classified as a small cat.
I am one of those who believe that many species of animals are moving outside of their current native habitat. I say current, because humans have pushed so many species of animals into isolated geographic areas. eventually nature will take it's course and lots of species will return to their historical native habitat. some with the help of man, and some on their own. I think the problem here, is getting some of the biologists to realize that there is more to this picture than what they have learned. Just because the books tell you that cougars live in the western US, and Florida, does not mean that these cats won't wander beyond these areas in search of food. It took a long time for any biologists to acknowledge that the Wolverine still existed in California. Some will probably still disagree, they want to see one in the wild for themselves. Something that will never happen while writing books and giving lectures on a campus in the city.
Wolves, a less elusive animal than the Cougar, are being spotted all over the place, hundreds of miles outside the area that biologists believe they inhabit. When I asked a biologist about the several wolf sightings that were taking place throughout the eastern part of California, he responded with, "we know that people are seeing wolves, but they were someones pet and they let them go. We don't have wolves here."
We heard the same story from our DNR about cougars, "Oh no, they aren't wild. They have to be an escaped pet." That was until one of the wild ones was radio-collared in the Black Hills of South Dakota and was tracked to northern Minnesota. Now the DNR has a much harder time convincing some of us that all the sightings are of escaped pets.
Since there is so much food available (like deer) wouldn't you think eventually the predators will start showing up? It isn't habitat that is the key element for predators - it is food.
Their prey needs habitat. The wild predators eventually figure out that suburbia is a great place for a snack. I have a really neat photo sent to me by a friend with a very large bobcat walking the sidewalk infront of his house - looking for a pet to munch...
When I was about 16(many years ago), we had a mountain lion get trapped in a saddle storage room at the end of a pole shed. The rafters were only about 7' high. I took a saddle down there one evening to put it away for the day. I steped into the room and came face to face with the lion. She was crouched in the rafters. I dropped the saddle and bolted for the door. As I turned, I saw her coming. I fell and she lit right in the middle of my back, sprang around the corner of the shed, and was gone. She wasn't after me at all, just wanted out of the storage room.
P.S. she had bad breath
Dakota
:o :o :o :o :o You are lucky to be here telling the story.
lucky for most of us in these eastern states there are no mountain lions ::)
Quote from: jon12345 on December 18, 2005, 01:26:55 AM
lucky for most of us in these eastern states there are no mountain lions ::)
Yet. That you know of.
Nah, you only have black bear munching on the pet dog...
So...the girlfriend and I did a day trip to Chicago to do a little shopping today. We were driving home late, and I saw some green eyes shining back at me on the highway ahead of me. Lit up the brights, and saw that what I was looking at was most certainly a cougar! Y'all will just think I have cougar on the brain, since it wasn't so long ago that I made this post--but both my girlfriend and I saw it, and it was DEFINITELY not a deer, and was way too big for a fox or a dog, and besides, it was long and low to the ground, and moved like the dickens once I flashed the brights at him! It definitely had the profile of a cat. My girlfriend and I were both pretty floored--it's one of the coolest things I've ever seen. 8)
This was somewhere south of South Haven, MI, btw...off of 196.
I live in North West Iowa and cougars are definatly on the move. I grew up in Montana and have seen them before but was pretty well dumbfounded when I saw on here. DNR says its cause of the Loese Hills and the close proximity of our farm/ranch to them. That was bout two years ago allready. Bout a month ago I get a call from the DNR askin if I'd seen her again, guess they think a momma cat is denned in a cave on our creek.
My daughter , of cource, keeps beggin me if we can track her down. Ha ha. Well, its definatly way past August so I guess I'll have to give in sometime. Better take the Winchester just in case tho. LOL
Something in Kelava, up past Ron Scotts, attacked and ate the ears off a steer this last week. There have been several reports of a cougar up by the cabin in Detour. One report came from 6 guys in the same vehicle coming from the Detour Dock company area I was told. They all saw the same thing.
This summer after a rain my son Aaron and his wife Jen went to the grinding site south of cushing Ok. Saw tracks in the dirt, big tracks. Jen knew how to make plaster casts so they got the stuff and made them. Claws out, too. Saw the casts last time I went to Ok. Plenty of deer, plenty of cover, plenty of area.
Here in FL we have a handful of panthers still surviving. My brother actually saw one run across the interstate, which is a rare sighting indeed. Even the people that track them rarely see them. Around here, a gator is a lot more likely to eat Fifi- they are all over the place, even in the cities.
Do bobcats and cougars dig a hole to take a dump? I saw a pile out in the corn field this fall that was in a dug out hole but not covered and it was to big for puddy to make . Bout the size of nasty coon crap ,and I know them coon would not bother to dig a hole to dump .
DanG.....We don't have any cougars in Wisconsin.... >:( >:( ;) ;)
Burlcraft, want me to send you some of the ones we don't have in Minnesota? :) :D
Quote from: Don_Papenburg on December 10, 2006, 08:11:17 PM
Do bobcats and cougars dig a hole to take a dump? I saw a pile out in the corn field this fall that was in a dug out hole but not covered and it was to big for puddy to make . Bout the size of nasty coon crap ,and I know them coon would not bother to dig a hole to dump .
I think this is the first time I've written 'LOL' and actually meant it...LOL
I did so......... the outhouse hole. :D :D :D
Interesting new article from the Detroit News
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007701270374
Yeah, we don't have em here either ::). Two my neighbors have seen one(?) at different times. I kinda figure that the habitat is changing. In this part of the state you can go up any little hollow and find evidence of old house sites, people lived up these hollows for a couple hundred years before "modern times" came and everyone left the hard to get to places. Now there are places in this county that have several square miles of nothing except cut over timber land, sometimes not even a 4 wheeler road. Who knows what could be living back in there. I know that the deer population is thriving, so why not the deer predators?
The DNR denied that wolves had moved into the Lower Penisula until one was caught in coyote trap and shot. Guess what ??? Now we've got wolves here ::) If a cougar is killed anywhere in the state the story will be that it escaped captivity. No one within the DNR will officially admit to a naturally occuring self sustaining population :(
They tell us that we do not have cougars around here either. But then we do not have wolverines, black bears, bald eagles and wild pigs either. ::) I have seen the eagles and their nest. I have seen the wild pigs too. I know people that have seen bears around here and there was a wolverine photographed in the Thumb.
If the DNR was to admit it then they would have to assume the responsibility of protecting them. See nothing, hear nothing. You know the bleeding hearts would cry foul if they were not protected. Ask Jeff what he thinks of the wolves in the UP.
Farmerdoug
Quote from: farmerdoug on February 04, 2007, 09:45:52 PM
Ask Jeff what he thinks of the wolves in the UP.
Farmerdoug
I'll bite...Jeff, what do you think of the wolves in the U.P.? Can you hear them near your cabin, or see evidence of them?
Quote from: scgargoyle on December 10, 2006, 01:17:20 PM
My brother actually saw one run across the interstate, which is a rare sighting indeed.
I was rereading this thread this morning, and this reminded me of a time last winter when my then girlfriend and I were driving on the interstate, near Benton Harbor, MI and were convinced we saw a cougar crossing the road. If I'd have been by myself, I wouldn't have believed it. Right after it crossed the road, my girlfriend and I looked at each other and said, "did you see that?" It moved really fast, low to the ground, and definitely not a deer. Gave us goosebumps.
Yes, we have wolves at the cabin. I think that wolves were eliminated from the U.P. and other areas for good reason and through a natural process. We being at the top of the food chain eliminated them to protect life and livelihood. We are as much a part of a natural process as any other creature. Now that they have been unnaturally reintroduced, we should do it again.
Zac has a new gun...... ;D ;D ;D
I believe WI spent a lot of tax dollars to reintroduce the wolves here. Now they eat the calves, the deer, the hunting dogs, and whatever. I'm with Jeff .......and with Zac ;D
We spent tons of tax dollars to plant elk. I saw no need for them either, but had no say in it. So just bellyache about it. :)
I am originally from Kansas. Department of Wildlife has assured us we have no courgars in Kansas no matter how many people say they have seen them.
The man who used to rent the farm from my family reported seeing one laying out in the field one spring day. He went in after the camera and it was gone when he came out. It was only about 75 yards away from the house.
A cousin saw one cross the road at night one time in the headlights.
A hunter saw one on the back side of my cousins after he unloaded the gun to quit for the day.
My cousin found some calf remains up in a tree.
My uncle knew a man who shot a cougar in Kansas and took it home and placed it in the freezer. He did not tell anyone about it. A few days later the fish and wildlife came by and asked him about it and took it out of the freezer. No charges were filed.
But Kansas has no cougars. Funny thing though the Fish and Wildlife will not check out sightings. :D
I am a farmer in NY that has seen one of those mountain lions that DEC says are not here. I guess all state wildlife people are the same.
If the wildlife people say that they have them, they're supposed to manage them without any increase in budget. Easier to claim that there are none. :)
It may be better for everyone to say there are none. Look at California, they took away mountain lion hunting in the 70's and now we have more lion attacks than any other state. Still, there are those convinced that it is an endangered animal. ::) ???
The funny thing is the attacks are all in fairly populated areas, where there is an abundance of people but should be less cougars. :-\ How many are in my neck of the woods? ??? If they said that we didn't have them here than I guess than we could kill them. I was thinking about throwin some wolverine on the BBQ, but now they tell us that we have those too. ;D
We got 'em here in Southwest Missouri as well. Been too many sightings at various locations throughout the state for them to be escaped pets. I think its pretty cool course I haven't lost any cattle or other animals. Just heard on the news tonight about a couple of gray wolves that escaped from a zoo down in Branson Missouri two days ago. Not sure if they were both of the same sex or not. Keep your eyes peeled if your headin' for Branson!! :D
Tonight on the local news, the DNR finally and officially confirmed the presence of cougar in the Eastern U.P. Plaster casts were taken in the same region as our property in De Tour. This follows up the trail cam photos taken in Bruce Township, just to the northwest of us last month.
http://www.9and10news.com/category/story/?id=181634
http://www.9and10news.com/category/story/?id=181926
Wish you'd snapped one on your trail cam Jeff. 8)
They have both been out since I have been home,so ya never know.
If attacked, fight back. Cougars are an endangered animal in Michigan.
Yeah, buddy!?!?
I see the news has a video of their story now. Not much to see other then the gal spokesperson for the dnr being uncomfortable on camera.
http://9and10news.com/category/story/?id=182070
We don't have them in Florida either. I reported seeing a big cat in 1985 and was told I was crazy.
Tom, they showed a documentary of cougars in Florida a few years back. Not that long ago, it was when I could get C-Band satellite. Now some of them shows I realize are staged, so never know what to believe.
Quote from: Jeff on February 05, 2007, 08:59:06 AM
Now that they have been unnaturally reintroduced, we should do it again.
Wolves were not "unnaturally reintroduced". 4 wolves were reintroduced but all 4 were killed by humans before they could attempt to breed. The wolves that are in the UP have made it here via their 4 little legs.
That is unless you know somebody outside the DNR/USFWS that introduced wolves.
Unnaturally introduced to me also means protected by extraordinary means. Without that, they wouldn't be here
Quote from: Jeff on November 06, 2009, 07:40:17 PM
Unnaturally introduced to me also means protected by extraordinary means. Without that, they wouldn't be here
They would have been here had the Government not offered a bounty system to kill them just because they are thought of as "bad", where people went to the extremes of nerve gassing dens. When in reality they aren't that bad, no worse than bears, cougars, bobcats, or coyotes.
The western half of Ontonagon (where i reside) and Gogebic have the highest wolf populations in the state, and I don't mind them at all. People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.
Some discussions with biologists over cougar sightings in the Maritimes. ;D
http://www.outdoorns.com/features/cougars.cougars.htm
I'd like to also mention that just because you work for DNR, it doesn't make you a wildlife expert. We had a case where a bear hunter tossed a bear carcass into the woods and someone reported the carcass as a human body. The paws and head had been removed and the carcass was skinned. The DNR staff member was suppose be a biologist and thought it was human. It turned out to be a hoax and it was a member of the hunting group that called it in. Became the laughing stock of the Tobique River Valley. ;)
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 06, 2009, 11:07:28 PM
People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.
If you want to love wolves and coyotes, you just go right ahead and love yours, but don't be insinuating I am complaining without facts. I have personal facts from personal observation and experience which far out weigh your narrow opinion of what I know or don't know about what happens in and around my land. Your western U.P. is far different country so don't think your facts have a thing to do with mine. They are a nuisance and unwanted by everyone living here other then the DNR, PETA freaks, Vegans and non-hunters. Which would you be? They would not exist here if it were not for the government protection they enjoy. We would not need any bounty here, in fact we would pay to shoot the cursed things.
I'm speaking from the top of the food chain. These predators reduce our game populations here, and I don't like it one bit. I want to be the one that reduces it.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 06, 2009, 11:07:28 PM
They would have been here had the Government not offered a bounty system to kill them just because they are thought of as "bad", where people went to the extremes of nerve gassing dens.
Nerve gassing? How did they get any of that very deadly stuff away from tightly guarded government stockpiles. Not sure but maybe all the stockpiles may have been destroyed.
I know of a fairly large cattle producer in the NW part of Wisconsin that was, for many years, being paid from $20-30,000 per year in compensation for livestock that was killed by wolves. He finally got fed up and told the feds not to come around any more because his calves were no longer for sale to them for wolf feed. He told them he would take care of the problem another way and he did. Put loaded rifles in every vehicle and tractor on the farm and they used them frequently. Didn't eliminate the problem but he sure thinned them out.
I heard that even one of the scientists involved in the save the wolves effort said the feds waited about 10-15 years too long to remove them from that endangered species list.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 06, 2009, 11:07:28 PM
The western half of Ontonagon (where i reside) and Gogebic have the highest wolf populations in the state, and I don't mind them at all. People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.
I agree with you.
But trust me I have had many conversations with Jeff and others on this and they are of a personal mind set that they (wolves and other predators) do no good. That's fine thats their opinion and I can respect that.
But I believe they have a place in this ecosystem. Game and predator populations ebb and flow with the weather here in Michigan.
We humans do not like competition in the top predator category so they get blamed for lots of things, like a heavy winter kill deer.
And really the best predator control measures they every used was DDT. It inadvertently wiped out the aviary population and mammal predators, it was even starting to do a good job on us the top predator.
We are just starting to see the recovery from that in the last 10-15 years.
Quote from: Reddog on November 07, 2009, 09:56:39 AM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 06, 2009, 11:07:28 PM
The western half of Ontonagon (where i reside) and Gogebic have the highest wolf populations in the state, and I don't mind them at all. People complain about them without knowing all the facts IMO.
I agree with you.
But trust me I have had many conversations with Jeff and others on this and they are of a personal mind set that they (wolves and other predators) do no good. That's fine thats their opinion and I can respect that.
But I believe they have a place in this ecosystem. Game and predator populations ebb and flow with the weather here in Michigan.
We humans do not like competition in the top predator category so they get blamed for lots of things, like a heavy winter kill deer.
And really the best predator control measures they every used was DDT. It inadvertently wiped out the aviary population and mammal predators, it was even starting to do a good job on us the top predator.
We are just starting to see the recovery from that in the last 10-15 years.
I don't think you would get much agreement on that from livestock farmers
Stonebroke
Quote from: Jeff on November 07, 2009, 07:57:01 AM
I'm speaking from the top of the food chain. These predators reduce our game populations here, and I don't like it one bit. I want to be the one that reduces it.
Do you know what the number one killer of deer fawns is? I'm a hunter, farmer, and outdoorsman. We do get some calve kills by wolves, but you take care of the bad few and for the most part we are trouble free, i mean statewide in 09 there has only been 7 cattle kills. Glad the western UP doesn't have that same "wolves are bad" mentality, you guys can keep it. Not saying that I love them but I also understand that they are part of the ecosystem and haveing some background in wildlife ecology and natural resource management, I understand their importance. I guess if you don't like em you will have to suffer, because they are here to stay.
Quote from: stonebroke on November 07, 2009, 10:06:02 AM
I don't think you would get much agreement on that from livestock farmers
Stonebroke
Most cattle guys this direction don't have much issue. Take care of the bad apple doing the killing and your generally set.
I sure hope it ain't a long winter. :D :D
That is probably verified kills. I think the real number is much higher. I had two on my farm in upstate ny this spring alone.
Stonebroke
O I know its verified kills. In reality that number is higher. But not that much higher, as in the UP of Michigan that aren't that many working farms, and our wolf density is only something like .05 wolves per square mile.
Which piece resides on your property? :D
Haha depends on the day of the week. Sometimes I see the pack (4-5 wolves) everyday for a week, then they are gone for a few weeks, making the rounds.
Well at least they solved the problem of people letting their dogs run loose.
Stonebroke
Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve. Dogs much more likely to get hit by a car than attacked by a wolf. I think there was 1 reported wolf depredation of a dog this year and zero last year, verse how many get hit by cars?
Only know of one neighbors dog who was killed by a wolf. But the dog was stupid and would challenge everything. It would growl and bark at anything (ie got attacked by a porcupine and a racoon in its life), so it was only a matter of time before it challenged something larger than itself.
Wolves are a scourge in most of the west now. The Timber wolf is a different beast than what was naturally ocurring here, the grey wolf. Many game populations have suffered, and lost livestock is an issue. Two houndsman I know from Oregon and Idaho have lost whole packs of hounds to wolves attacking them at the tree, and I read about it happening pretty often.
In the upper great lakes I am not sure what was native, timber or grey wolves.
If they were hunted and managed, it would help immensely. I'm afraid eradication is out of the question these days, but they are out of control and need some slowing down.
The upper great lakes has Canis lupus lycaon, more commonly the gray wolf/ timber wolf.
You must have very well behaved wolves in Mich.
Stonebroke
I see I put gray and timber wolves as different, when they are in fact the same species. It is the subspecies that differ from the big northern wolves, but they are classified the same. Sorry for the mixup
Those articles in my post are interesting reading on the cougars up this way. There are several there. Some links in the bottom link are gone, since the site was never updated after 2001. The articles involve some investigation not a yes or no it was a cougar and we're done type deal. Although, after awhile some of the DNR staff got tired of chasing after ghostly evidence. It is listed as endangered in NB.
Kinda like listing polar bears for NB, but not really I suppose. My grandfather always had someone calling about coming to hunt polar bears. He replied one time that you can come hunt elephants if you want, doesn't mean your going to shoot one or see one. ;D
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 07, 2009, 03:30:40 PM
Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve.
You missed the point on that. If a dog runs lose and wild and does anything destructive to personal property, animal control can kill it on sight, whereas a wolf enjoys full governmental protection from all indiscretions, outside of perhaps killing a person, and that's not ever been an issue. I don't think there are any documented cases of that ever happening at least in Michigan. If a dog running wild comes on my property and starts killing deer, there are remedies. When one of the DNR's dogs come, there are none
Its not fawns. Here in cedar country where the deer yard heavily, it becomes a fish in a barrel situation. We've seen on a crystal clear winter night, with the temps below zero, the yarded deer come out on the ice on Lou's pond and bed outside of the thermal protection of the cedars, watching tentatively towards shore. We (a person) can't even get them to do that. There is only one creature that we observe putting that sort of fear into our deer.
The DNR have released far more deer then 4. Every time they trap one and put a collar on it or a chip in one, and then let go, they are being un-naturally released. The way I see it, the biggest drive for maintaining the wolves is the almighty dollar. Millions are spent on this. The wolves do not fill any integral puzzle piece in the biology of the eastern U.P. The only thing they do is undo the things that as land owners we do to promote the well being of personally desirable species on our property.
I don't hate wolves. I have no problem with wolves as long as they are somewhere outside of my personal domain. What I have a problem with is not being allowed to be any part of the natural selection process within my domain when it comes to wolves.
Quote from: Jeff on November 08, 2009, 08:47:00 AM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 07, 2009, 03:30:40 PM
Family dogs have been running loose on the farm here for about 100+ years (that was pre/during/post wolf eradication) and never lost a single one to a wolve.
You missed the point on that. If a dog runs lose and wild and does anything destructive to personal property, animal control can kill it on sight, whereas a wolf enjoys full governmental protection from all indiscretions, outside of perhaps killing a person, and that's not ever been an issue. I don't think there are any documented cases of that ever happening at least in Michigan. If a dog running wild comes on my property and starts killing deer, there are remedies. When one of the DNR's dogs come, there are none
Its not fawns. Here in cedar country where the deer yard heavily, it becomes a fish in a barrel situation. We've seen on a crystal clear winter night, with the temps below zero, the yarded deer come out on the ice on Lou's pond and bed outside of the thermal protection of the cedars, watching tentatively towards shore. We (a person) can't even get them to do that. There is only one creature that we observe putting that sort of fear into our deer.
The DNR have released far more deer then 4. Every time they trap one and put a collar on it or a chip in one, and then let go, they are being un-naturally released. The way I see it, the biggest drive for maintaining the wolves is the almighty dollar. Millions are spent on this. The wolves do not fill any integral puzzle piece in the biology of the eastern U.P. The only thing they do is undo the things that as land owners we do to promote the well being of personally desirable species on our property.
I don't hate wolves. I have no problem with wolves as long as they are somewhere outside of my personal domain. What I have a problem with is not being allowed to be any part of the natural selection process within my domain when it comes to wolves.
ditto
Stonebroke
::) helping the natural selection and not tellin' is an option , it also helps with the blood pressure . ;) I have good blood pressure ;D
Mortality codes in implanted chips create risks I'm not willing to take.
I figure I better add a little more to my thinkings on the DNR dogs. I don't feel that wolves are detrimental to the deer herd as a whole throughout the entire U.P. I think where areas that have good deer populations and good conditions for high reproduction, that wolves don't make a difference.
HOWEVER there are areas like we have here, with little to no farm land, with some past tough winters with high deer mortality, that has caused us to be in a place where we can't get back over the hump to return our once very good deer populations that we enjoyed in the early 90s. I am truly in believe that the predator problem here is the remaining limiting factor. Coyotes, wolves, the now proven existence of cougars, which we already knew, and bears and bobcats to a very limited degree.
Quote from: Jeff on November 08, 2009, 09:27:19 PM
and bears and bobcats to a very limited degree.
That degree may not be as limited as you think.
You also have lynx that move in and out of the area.
All three are very hard on fawns.
There is only one thing that leaves only the mandibles, shards of the large bones and a pile of hair in the winter, and we are finding these spots in multitudes the last few springs. The big bones are being crunched. That aint bears. The greatest number of kills come during yarding. I think our fawn predation is probably always high due to the type of country.
You're not going to change my mind.
Quote from: Jeff on November 08, 2009, 09:55:07 PM
You're not going to change my mind.
Already knew that. :)
Don't worry your next problem in a few years will be the turkeys. ;)
Number one killer of fawns is the bobcat, second is the black bear iirc... Without fawns your deer heard suffers.
And the DNR and USFWS does trap and kill wolves on a limited scale every year.
As for wolves not fitting any part of the ecology. They are the top down predator that starts the trophic cascade. Its been widely studied that without the presence of wolves deer numbers are higher (obviously), which results in much diminished tree and crop production. So if your in the business of growing trees or crops deer are bad, so wolves help keep that number in check. In some forest communities certain tree species will not regenerate because of the high numbers of deer. This limits the amount of total habitat available for other species. If all you care about is the presence of the deer herd then wolves I guess are bad. If you care about the forest as an ecosystem from the trees to the wildlife then wolves help keep things in balance, IMO and the opinion of many scientists.
Its obvious that you are a deer hunter therefor you don't like wolves. I am a forester and hunter and I like the presence of wolves. Areas with a healthy wolf population, cedar and oak actually have a chance of regenerating.
Ha! I think they already are. My last batch of photos from the camera on my place. Long as "they" eventually let us hunt them, We'll tolerate em.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC_0075.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC_0076.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/2400/DSC_0077.JPG)
You show me those statistics about black bear. I think yer pulling those out of yer rear.
Pah-leeze
Quit talking like I'm in the freaking yellowstone or the wilds of Alaska. The wolf is not the top down predator here. And when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory. I am the top down predator. We have no oak here. Its not Oak country. We have very good cedar regeneration HERE. Two things have changed dramatically in the last ten years. We have less deer, and more wolves.
The dnr does not kill wolves because they kill deer. Who are you kidding. They might kill wolves when they kill livestock. There is no livestock here. Only game species. My understanding is the boys over by Pickford that have some livestock have chosen to deal with the problem in their own way. I won't do what they do as it means every other predator and perhaps the family dog are effected as well, however we are starting to see deer in the fields over there again in larger numbers where there once were very few.
Ultimately we are the top down predator everywhere (even yellowstone and alaska). Glad you east end boys are up on your ecosystem ecology. Ever thought about why there is no Oak over that way? I know of a few places out east with deer enclosures that oak is present in good numbers...hmmm..... Your one of them people that is just in love with un-naturally large numbers of deer, and that will never change. I on the other hand would much rather see a more balanced ecosystem (from trees to all wildlife not just game species). With un-natural deer heard numbers other issues come into play, like imbreading, genetic shifts, disease presence and severity, etc, etc as well in the reduction of a food base for other wildlife...
I looked for the Journal on the fawn mortality, and couldn't find it. Then I remembered I received the data from a colleague who is continuing the research presently. The results should be published in the next few years.
At this point I'm done arguing. Just reaffirms the fact I never want to live on the east end of da UP, where the trolls flock in shocking numbers. We all have our opinions, and can do with them what we please.
QuoteEver thought about why there is no Oak over that way?
Have you? Obviously you need some forestry refresher courses if you are a forester. Come take some soil samples.
QuoteYour one of them people that is just in love with un-naturally large numbers of deer
And you are obviously someone that in love with un-naturaly high wolf populations and excludes man from the natural equation. We are part of the ecosystem, the top of your mentioned trophic cascade, and as long as we are, we have the ability to adjust things to our personal benefit.
Quote from: Jeff on November 09, 2009, 08:54:32 AM
QuoteEver thought about why there is no Oak over that way?
Have you? Obviously you need some forestry refresher courses if you are a forester. Come take some soil samples.
So the entire east end of the UP will not support oak? I know of some places in the neighborhood of Detour with very nice oak. Then just have to fence the regen to keep the heard out.
There is no herd.
Once again, show me the good oak area near detour. Google should help. You might look towards sand ridge road, there is some oak there, however there are no deer there either. its sterile.
QuoteSo the entire east end of the UP will not support oak?
Did I say that?
Quote from: Jeff on November 09, 2009, 08:08:12 AM
Pah-leeze
And when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory.
QuoteI looked for the Journal on the fawn mortality, and couldn't find it. Then I remembered I received the data from a colleague who is continuing the research presently. The results should be published in the next few years.
Thats what I figured.
Why resort to calling people trolls when your beleives are challenged?
Your from downstate therefor a troll, nothing with beliefs.
As for the Oak, get out and walk the land and talk to as many landowners as you can. With your expansive knowledge you should have no problem finding some areas ;).
As for cedar regen, if you were to clear cut an acre patch of your cedar, are you 100% sure that cedar would regenerate and recruit into the overstory?
Quote from: Jeff on November 09, 2009, 08:08:12 AMAnd when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory.
When you say "here" if you mean your 20 acre parcel of land then it is impossible to manage ANY game on that size land. If you were to shoot all "your" wolves more would take their place. Wolves cover 100's of miles without batting an eye. Wildlife management must take place at more landscape levels.
Quote from: Jeff on November 09, 2009, 08:54:32 AM
we have the ability to adjust things to our personal benefit.
You say "our" personal benefits. They are YOUR personal benefits.
Anywho believe what you want, I'll continue to not be bothered by the wolves, and go on with my life living in da western UP. Good day.
Hey, you started this debate. Don't go getting all offensive when I try to call in your information. You inferred I didn't know what I was talking about and that I am wrong. Back up your statements if you want to sway me. I wont bother to explain to you in any detail the landowners connections here that encompass a very large area that includes my little 20 acres.
I do believe you are the one that told me about the oaks here that you know about. Why do I need to go out and start searching them out when you already know where they are at? I've covered a few thousand acres over the last 20 years or so up here, so I pretty much know what I have seen and where, so yer going to have to narrow the search for me. I can go check it out and then agree with you once I have found it.
We know better then to cut patches of cedar like acre squares, like I am guessing you are inferring. If you want cedar regeneration here, you cut it in narrow strips. Clear cutting areas of cedar removes cedar maybe forever. You just don't do it that way. I can show you how its been done with success here right across the road with Lou's property. (a non-troll) He's been actively managing his several hundred acres for around 50 of his over 80 years. Just one of the many connecting large land owners doing the same things. Many of my original believes were akin to yours, and still are in essence, but after time on the ground in the middle of it HERE, and with the added influence and knowledge of the old timers around here, I now side with them. I'll try and get some telling photos on how the cedar regenerates here.
QuoteWhen you say "here" if you mean your 20 acre parcel of land then it is impossible to manage ANY game on that size land
That's funny. :D I am lucky enough to have my 20 acres surrounded by mostly good neighbors that don't try and diminish my views because I don't own large tracts like they do.
I don't think you have taken in a thing I have said. Let me condense it for you. Our, and I mean our including other area land owners, is that wolves are one of and perhaps thee limiting factors here in a greatly diminished deer population from what it was 15 years ago. It was not diminished by the wolves in the beginning, but by the winter of 1995. The deer have never been able to recover from that even though environmental conditions should have allowed it. Taking a few wolves out of the equation around here would give the deer a foothold again.
Why can't you fathom that we might just have a localized problem here?
Quote from: Jeff on November 09, 2009, 12:10:57 PM
Why can't you fathom that we might just have a localized problem here?
I fathom that you may have a localized "problem". But wolf/wildlife management covers entire landscapes. Collared wolves from michigan have turned up as far away as Missouri. So it is impossible to manage for your few square miles of land that has a "problem".
Edit: Also id like to know the secret to cedar regen. We cut small strips and irregularly shaped patches and get nothing but balsam and spruce regen. We have a pack or 2 of wolves, hunters, and few deer. But still 1-2 deer yard in the swamp and eat everything they can reach.
Sure its possible. A few well placed shots will manage it. The problem is, it will manage it in a way that others don't agree with. :)
I will say that when there is a wolf season, I will be the first on the list for a tag.
In the U.P. of Michigan we have a Sportsman's program on every monday night and it is called Discovering with Buck La Vasser. Well this week he sat down and questioned the Wildlife Division Chief of Michigan's DNR about the deer numbers at an all time low here in the U.P. and without even having to coax him, the answer out of his mouth was the wolves are out of control. I cut out this section of program and if you have a fast enough connection you can watch it below. Wait until you see the image appear in the video box below before you try to play it. This is a good first step in getting our deer herd back and getting these wolves back down to a manageable level.
This clip of the video taken from TV6 Discovering with Buck La Vassuer
Well I screwed that up ::) ??? you can go here and view the 10/26 clip, its the last segment in the half hour show so you will want to fast forward ;D
http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/on_wluc/content.aspx?id=110744
Only thing I will mention about his comment is that wolves kill an estimated 5% of the total yearly whitetail kill count. Winter kills something like 40%, with hunters about equal to winter, the rest is automobiles. If cars kill more deer than wolves, should we limit automobile travel? Or should we supplementaly feed the deer heard and make them pack into a feed lot, so that when CWD gets here it runs wild......? Just some food for thought.
Brian Roell the DNR's wolf specialist is a great guy and if you get the chance you should pick his brain as much as possible. I enjoy talking to him and he always has interesting tid bits of information that will make you think.
We all have our own opinions. ::) ::) :) :)
Even the DNR specialists. ;D
Quote from: beenthere on November 09, 2009, 07:13:13 PM
Even the DNR specialists. ;D
The Mi wolf specialist is an avid hunter, and said he would love to see a limited wolf hunting season in the future.
Today I happened to have a meeting with a MN DNR Forester who has also worked in the wildlife area. I asked him about the wolf situation and he said that all the wolf specialists he knows believe that the wolf should have been delisted from the endangered species list any where from 15 to 20 years ago. Now they have become a nuisance and a sometimes costly one at that because of all the money that has to be paid for wolf kills of livestock. The problem with delisting has been the wolf lovers have been able to find a sympathetic judge that will listen to their pleas that more time is needed for the recovery.
However the state of Idaho must have found a judge that has allowed them to proceed with a wolf hunt this year. He did not know how it turned out, but he said the best thing for the wolf would be to allow hunting of wolves and shoot a hundred or so and put the fear of man back in the wolves thinking.
And I cannot believe that any serious livestock producer would be indifferent to a pack or two of wolves harassing his livestock. ::)
A cow calf operation has to feed that cow for 365 days per year and the only money he makes is from that one calf. If he loses the calf to wolves, there goes his profit from that cow and any number of others just to break even. So many of the wolf specialists have been sympathetic to the farmer/ ranchers problems and have mostly looked the other way when it came to wolf kills.
Quote from: Gary_C on November 10, 2009, 02:01:36 AM
endangered species list any where from 15 to 20 years ago.
20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.
Quote from: Gary_C on November 10, 2009, 02:01:36 AM
And I cannot believe that any serious livestock producer would be indifferent to a pack or two of wolves harassing his livestock. ::)
There are only a handful of working cattle farms in michigans UP that have had any depredation. One cow calf operation had something like 5 calves go down in one year. The DNR DID remove almost the entire pack IIRC. In our local area though we (us and our neighbors) haven't had any calves go down, so the the wolves aren't an issue.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 09, 2009, 10:09:39 AM
Wildlife management must take place at more landscape levels.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 10, 2009, 06:50:57 AM
20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.
So now you are the one wanting to manage at your local level?
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 10, 2009, 06:50:57 AM
20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.
That was when they finally admitted to wolves.
Back in the early 70's we had a few packs north of Amasa and spread east and west from there. Dad would see the tracks while logging. The two MI DNR biologist's knew they where there but officially could not say anything. They felt at that time they had come from MN who at that time had a large qty in the boundary waters area.
So yes MN has had the problem much longer than MI because of anti's.
Needless to say they are here to stay and people need to learn how to deal with them. Most of the smarter Ranchers and farmers have learned how to run their operations more wolf proof. Sorry to say but Pickford isn't one of those areas. They are going to get them selves in some serious trouble before this is all done.
Quote from: Gary_C on November 10, 2009, 08:49:33 AM
So now you are the one wanting to manage at your local level?
No I'm saying that even if Mn had enough population to delist Michigan and possible Wi did not, therefor they shouldn't and weren't delisted. They are listed for the region, and that is how they need to be managed.
Quote from: Reddog on November 10, 2009, 09:41:52 AM
Needless to say they are here to stay and people need to learn how to deal with them. Most of the smarter Ranchers and farmers have learned how to run their operations more wolf proof.
Exactly, they are one of those things that you have to learn to live with. You adjust your habits and such to prevent trouble as much as possible, and then deal with it when it does occur.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 09, 2009, 12:22:42 PM
But wolf/wildlife management covers entire landscapes. Collared wolves from michigan have turned up as far away as Missouri. So it is impossible to manage for your few square miles of land that has a "problem".
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on November 10, 2009, 10:36:48 AM
No I'm saying that even if Mn had enough population to delist Michigan and possible Wi did not, therefor they shouldn't and weren't delisted. They are listed for the region, and that is how they need to be managed.
But then you are narrowing your region to suit what you want to say.
Actually in my conversation with that DNR Forester, he was speaking more of the situation in all of the US and especially the west. We were not speaking specifically about MN, MI, or any other region.
But you are missing the point completely to argue time or regions. From what I have heard and what he confirmed, most all of the Wildlife Biologists that have been involved in wolf management have been saying for a long time that the wolf population has exceeded proper levels and now we have too many. It is only thru the efforts of some radical activists and some activsts judges that the populations have been allowed to grow and become an economic hardship on both the government that must pay "just compensation" and the property and land owners that suffer economic hardship that is caused by more than just "kills" that are discovered and proven.
A few of my most memorable woods experiences over the years have been lonely encounters with wolves in the western UP. A couple were in the 1950's before the wolves were placed on the ET&E species list and one in 1993 after they were listed.
Quote from: Gary_C on November 10, 2009, 11:05:13 AM
But then you are narrowing your region to suit what you want to say.
Its hard to convey in typing, what I am saying is that the entire upper great lakes wolf region needs to have stable populations before they are delisted, and managed. That means that even if state A has 1000 wolves and state B has 100 wolves, you can't delist them for state A because management in A could/would have a negative impact on state B's population. Population ecology, biology, and management is difficult for species that cover large ranges. Wildlife doesn't know political and management boundaries.
(To no one in particular)
We almost decimated an entire portion of our population one time. Thank goodness it is coming back.
There was a time, about 50 years ago, when the occupation of thievery was endangered. It's the segment of humanity that depended upon this predation that was ultimately at risk.
So many of these people had been killed, or put away into prisons that you seldom heard of a residence being violated.
Then there was a great uprising of sentiment and a knowledgeable and educated portion of the population realized the damage we were doing to this endangered society. Large amounts of money were spent to "rehabilitate" these poor souls. Prisons were closed, laws were softened, the terrible acts of vengeance were ceased and now, praise the almighty, we again have a healthy population of thieves, murders, drug dealers and scam artists on the streets. Why, there have been six or seven break-ins on my street alone this year.
It's good that we have so many concerned in the preservation of the world, as it has ever existed, to our own knowledge. Just think of our poor grandchildren not ever knowing what it is like to have their child killed, just because a bunch of unfeeling law enforcement officers cleared the streets. Oh my!
Next week, perhaps, we'll discuss "bleeding hearts".
smiley_headscratch
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
6 pages of this topic-and in one post Tom lays it all to rest :D
That was an outstanding post by Tom . And oh so relevent in a very disguised manner.
We must be very careful about what we wish for.
Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
(To no one in particular)
Just think of our poor grandchildren not ever knowing what it is like to have their child killed, just because a bunch of unfeeling law enforcement officers cleared the streets. Oh my!
Next week, perhaps, we'll discuss "bleeding hearts".
Thank you Tom,
Truer words were never spoken ;) ;) ;)
Now speaking of bleeding hearts.......... :D :D :D