The Forestry Forum

I was wondering what you have seen, owned, or worked with for power plants on small circular saw mills with blades 36 inch or larger?

After WWII, there were a lot of different makes of engines used to power small sawmill. I remember one fellow had gotten a surplus engine from a troop carrier, it was a track machine with two large flat head V-8 Cadillac engines in it.
The engine didn't seem to have that much power, it would choke down in the cut fairly fast, but would really come back to speed in a hurry, with the exhaust pipes glowing red. The guy only used it one summer and had it worn out. It would go thru two 55 gallon barrels of gas a day.

A couple of mills had surplus airplane engines, 9 cylinder rotary's from fighter planes.  Same problem with the gas.
I bought a well used portable that had a straight 8 buick on it  als a very well used Ireland with a 4 cylinder Lynn tractor engine.
Alot of mills used farm tractors. A couple were still on water power when I was young. There is still a water powered sash and blind running in Croghan.
                 Junkyard

Recycled from one of my very early posts on the forum.

QuoteThere is a local guy in our area that only drives, big front wheel drive Oldsmobile Toronados. When done driving them, he converts them to his power source for his mill.
He cuts them off right behind the dash and removes the fenders. He has a special rims made up that he mounts to run his flat belts. The large engines have plenty of umph, and he is able to use all of the cars controls. The one that he utilizes most is the Cruise control. It not only sets RPM, but acts as a governor, giving more power when the saw is working, just as the car would have needed it on uphill climbs.

The fellow is passed on now.

I had two friends who partnered up to get an old belsaw going again. One of the guys was a lifelong mechanic who ate and breathed mopar. He cobbled up a drive from a dodge slant 6 and it worked fine. The mill was rather worn out and their fine work varied about 1/4" either way from what was desired. He never woried about the sloppy bearings but knew every trick even those not in the book to keep an engine going. I believe they wore out 2 or 3 engines but he had more. The mechanic is dead now, not sure what the other partner is doing to keep it going.

I've seen mainly Detroit 471 or 671 used on most old handmills and some automatics here in PA.  There are a few Cummins diesels.  No one uses gas engines.

Those old Belsaws were set up to run on a PTO. 

I started out with a 70hp farm tractor then after about 5yrs bought a 471 detroit I ran that about 10 or 12 yrs. I could run it almost 2 months on 275 gal fuel. Now I run a 671 it powers my headsaw a hydraulic carrige drive a hydraulic pump for the log turner and live deck and a big cornell sawdust blower and still has power to burn. It eats about 275 gal of fuel a month,

 Like junkyard, many years ago dad bought a mill that had the straight 8 buick engine for the power unit.
Still have nightmares from that now and then.
                                                           :) :)

   There were a lot of Case L, & LA gas eingines used around here,the first mill I sawed on had one.IH UD 6 through 24s were popuiartoo. The oddest rig I ever sawed with was a UD 9 with a UD 6 belted in tandem to a balance wheel. When the 6 took up the slack,you had better hold own. A Rube Goldberg affair for sure,but it sawed a lot of lumber. Detroits were popular with the bigger,more commercial mills.

The mill I grew up with used an Oliver 99 for power..flat belted to the mandrel..and it was only marginally enough torque to run a 48 inch blade in black walnut. Matter of fact, when sawing, as the load increased, you could see the tractor squat to the load and "back up" since it was pulling all it could. Most every mill aside from the ones seen at old engine shows (powered by steam) were pto or belt from a tractor. I use a gas 6 cylinder hercules, putting out 125hp @ 1950 rpm and turning a 52 inch blade @ 600 rpm. I have very little hesitation and it has no problem with maintaining speed in the cut. I am looking for a 471 or 671...or maybe even a cat power unit.

At the Museum of Appalachia (Norris TN, about 15 miles N of Knoxville)  they've got an old mill which they power with a "G" John Deere with a flat belt during their "fall homecoming" in October; great fun...........

We have an old 1948 6 cylinder White truck engine.  It's a smooth as can be.  Not too hard on fuel either.  We tried to power it with the farm tractors, but it would not handle the Oaks very well.  Also, the 2 cylinder john deeres are not as smooth.  We run a 50HP Frick Steam engine at our club on the 00 Frick mill.

After WWII and through the fifties the guys that wanted to run a sawmill used any engine that they could get cheap. My father must have had sawdust for blood, if there was a sawmill within 50 miles of us we would go looking for it come Sunday.  Here is some make of engines that I have seen used to run sawmill equipment: Buda, Continental, Hercules, Murphy, Waukesha.

Any body see these engines in action?

The man that taught me to saw has a Buda.  Allis Charmers bought out Buda. Last I knew you could still get some parts from allis for buda. I was told to stay away from Waukesha they were hard to get parts for. Never heard of of a Murphy. Is he the one that was involved with the law? (Murphys Law) :D

 I am still waiting for somebody to teach me how to saw !  :D   I have seen a few auction bills for horse powered sawmills , team goes around in circles hooked to a pole which turns something at the end of the pole which runs a shaft under the ground way over to a sawblade .  Never seen it but thought you might all enjoy my high tech description ! ???

Hi, still working on my first and only mill.  I have a ~'60's Foley-Belsaw I got from a guy who said he ran it with a Buick stationwagon.  Used the cruise control to run it.  He got it from a guy who ran it with a VW engine.  He said it was all balanced on tire rims, 2x10's and lots of shims. 
     I started out building a steel  8" channel frame on 3" pipe supports, set on concrete piers.  I'll be driving it with a 1946 Detroit 3-71, running through a Ford rear end (3.25:1) so it will run at ~600 rpm when the engine is at 1800 rpm.  It also has a 12kW generator head running off a pulley on the engine.  Still have to build the log deck & finish welding the carriage track and set up the carriage works to get it running.  Then I can start putting guards over drivelines, roofs over engines and tracks, an addition to the barn to store the lumber in, etc., etc.  Most involved, expensive, difficult and fun hobby I've ever had. 
     Just started a new obsession by getting a 6 hp, one cylinder, Indian-built, Listeroid diesel (knock-off copy of an English-made Lister engine) to provide elec. power without all the noise produced by the Detroit Diesel.  It will be mounted behind the Detroit on the same concrete foundation.  I still haven't cut a stick of wood, but having too much fun non-the-less.
Ray

The first mill I apprenticed on was ran by a model T engine the second was a 1923 Huber tractor with pistons that were as large as a 3 lb coffee can.

For my 52" mill I have a 200 hore power Allis Chalmbers  for power and it also runs a 35 CFM compressor for the kickers, rollers, log loaders and flippers.

Well......we need to get Buzz-sawyer in here.  He currently runs his big circle mill with a Buda.  He sure likes it and I was impressed.  That old motor powered right on through the cut without a whimper.  I thought it would be incredibly loud.  It wasn't!  I was standing right next to it while Buzz was cutting and it was really rather quiet.  Our old International Super M used to be a whole lot louder.

Come on Buzz jump in here.



Jim

Here's Buzz kneeling down next to his Buda.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12519/Buzz%20Sawyer%20checking%20his%20batteries2.jpg)

My Belsaw has a Olds 350 tied to a auto transmission and drive shaft that goes to a rear differential, which drives an axle that drives the blade.  It is controled with a common cruise control and maintains the needed RPM when the going gets tough.  The blade is a 48" but I want to upgrade that after seeing Buzz's monster  ;D

What else.....................

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I've seen all kinds of motors hooked to mills over the years. Mostly I've run Detroit 4-71 and 6-71's. I've watched the mill run at Tremel's club. The old steam engine isn't a Detroit but it works pretty good.

   I sure would like to get to saw behind a real steam engine. Every one of the real old time sawyers that I've ever talked to always talked about how "smooth" steam was. Like ta try it once before my time is up.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13364/sawmill%20motor.jpg)
This is my 6 cylinder chrysler its putting out 40 hp at 2000 rpm that belt is 1/2" thick by 8" wide by about 18 feet long.

My manual circle came with a Mack front clip and tranny.
My hydraulic/electric mill has a Detroit 6-71.
I also have an Allison V12. Well, it's only a picture of one but I bet I made someones adrenaline go up a little ;D

Nobody's mentioned natural gas.
When I went to college (graduated in 1994) I worked on a farm that had a natural gas well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/GasWellff.jpg)

His sawmill was powered by a 6 cylinder flathead truck engine converted to run on natural gas.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/EdMill3ff%7E0.jpg)

His gas well made less than 100 psi and the 2000 foot pipe to the mill could not supply the engine enough gas at full load. Farmer fix = install a 55 gal drum as an accumulator at the engine. It worked well but was a little nerve racking catching boards off that big spinning blade and having that rusty old drum right next to you looking like it's gunna blow up.  
I went back to visit this past summer and he has had a new gas well installed, he says it's over 1200 psi coming out of the ground.
The sawmill now has a MM converted to natural gas and no more 55 gal drum with the new well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/KashMillEngineff.jpg)

I can't remember the manufacturer of the mill but it's American ?something?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/KashMillff.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/KashMillBladeff.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12002/EdMill2ff.jpg)

You guys are getting me all nostalgic . I am just in the process of picking out a band mill. But it all goes back to listening to my grandad talk about his younger days in Minnisota. He and his brother ran what he called a portable mill . I  can imagine how portable it was steam powered . I dont know what brand it was but I remember himtelling me that he had fired it with  dry wood green wood and coal at different times.   Good memories

 Dan if it's around N.J. it's a American sawmill made in Hacketstown N.J. around the early 1900 s. Kinda looks like the one I ran except I had one more headblock.

Not sure of the Mill we used to work on but in 92-97 I was working for a crop farmer that sawed lumber in winter and early spring until we could get on the fields. We were powering with a 2-105 White Field Boss (Wakesha?? or perkins? turbo diesel) and put off a little over 10K bdft in a good day /w 3 guys in the mill. Burned about 35 gallons of fuel doing it.

The farmer was 72, I was 17 and my brother was 14. I can tell you that we went home for dinner, and fell asleep everynight before ever getting away from the living room at my parents house when we were sawing like that. Makes for trouble free teenagers.

Heading up to that old farmer's place this weekend to take some trips down memory lane with him and get some sawing tips, in person from a real oldtimer. He no longer has that circle mill, he's using a band mill like many of us now (he doesn't use it much as it frustrates him)

This subject deserves a replay ,some of the best power units come out of old cranes and shovels.They are on skids a complete power unit except for the fuel tank,usallly with a clutch.If you ever run across a Murphy diesel grab it they have torque you never dreamed of and will run forever they have one speed just above an idle.Steam is probibly the best power but boilers especially in the winter are a pain in the $ss.My old mill had a cat d318 power unit out of a bucyrus erie shovel it was a dandy ran around 1150 rpm pony start.

A couple of years ago I purchased a "0" Frick mill with a 52" blade. No power unit. After some thought, I deceided to use a spare snow-plow truck I had, consisting of a 1987 Dodge Dakota with a 3.9L V6 engine. The mill came with a 24 " diameter flat pulley.

The idea was simple, remove the bed and block up the truck so that the rear tire rubbed against the pulley. There were several preperations that needed to be completed first. The first, after removing the bed, was to weld the spider gears together in the rear-end. Even with a posi-traction rear, the clutches in the differential didn't allow for direct drive without slipping. The second was to determine the direction of the blade vs the direction the truck would have to set in order to run in a forward gear. Fortunatly the truck would set away from the log deck (right hand saw). 8) 

Next the proper speed needed to be derermined. I knew from Jeff's Saw Pounding what the blade RPM was and using the circumference of the 24" diameter pulley, backed into the MPH the 24" pulley would have to turn. If the tire on the truck was exactly the same 24" diameter then this would be the speed the speedodometer would have to display. I opted for a smaller tire on the truck to increase the torque delivered to the blade. In doing this I used the ratio of the 24" pulley compared to the tire size and increased the tire speed accordingly. The last major task was to install an aftermarket cruize control to maintain the speed.

Another major consideration with a setup like this is the amount of pressure existing between the tire and the pulley. Calculations need to be made using the horsepower requirment at the blade, the amount of surface contact between the tire and pulley and also the psi of air inside the tire.

Another option with this setup would be to use a tire-less rim. with a flat belt to drive the saw. the calculations would work the same and with a 180 deg turn of the belt the blade direction could also be reversed if need be.

Boulderridge   

Boulderrigde

How does that 'design' work for you?   ???

Beenthere,

It actualy works pretty well. Actual power units are hard to come by and expensive. A vehicle with the body shot but with a sound power-train is easy to come by and cheap. Best of all you can go to the local auto parts for parts to fix a breakdown. It comes with it's own instruments, enclosure to store tools (inside the passenger compartment) and an enclosure for the engine.

Boulderridge

Boulderridge,do you get enough traction between the tire and the steel pulley so she won't slip in a hard cut.??Flat belts are quite happy rideing on rubber tires their is even some crown ,good traction too.

Bandmiller2,

The coefficient of steel on rubber is pretty good. It all depends on three things, the amount of HP needed at the blade, the amount of surface area of tire you have on the steel wheel and the amount of air pressure in the tire. The more air pressure the less tire contact you need. I'm operating at about 35 psi. I try to keep the pressure down. That way it's easier on bearings. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16517/IMG_0197%7E0.JPG) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16517/IMG_0199%7E0.JPG)

Boulderridge,thanks for the pics,I've learned a new trick.Most of the truck run mills around here just cut the frame and run the drive shaft to the arbor

Back in the nineteen fifties, my father owned a Lane mill that ran six days a week and was powered by a Cat diesel that had a pony motor on top of it to crank up the Cat when it was below zero in the winter. Eventually, he replaced it with a three phase electric motor, so that the cold weather problems went away.

I think that the diesel from the fire truck in the for sale section would rip though some serious lumber if attached to a circle mill. 

Most diesel truck engines have plenty of power for a mill,only problem being they usally have just a limiting speed governor.All that does is prevent the engine from overspeeding.Some trucks [like bulk unloaders]have a variable speed gov.that will hold set RPM atsa the one you want.

Here is a fix to the limiting speed governor.

Would be easy to retrofit.

http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007101420262696&item=28-1653

-Jason

Jason ,thats a good price for a governor.
sometimes their ment for carbs on a gasoline engine and don't have enough power to regulate an injection pump.I'am not sure on this but I believe a limiting speed governor like most trucks have could be adjusted to about 3/4 throttle and work on a mill.Frank C.