A Marion Indiana Fire Chief said the following after two UNTRAINED- UNQUALIFIED firemen got 2nd and 3rd degree burns at a training fire.
"......If a fireman is on the department and doesn't get burned, he isn't doing his job," Chief Gorrell said. "If they don't get burned, I don't want them on our department. If they are afraid to get burned, they're on the wrong job......"
According to some inside sources in the State, it looks like charges are going to be filed against this Chief.
Chet, penney for your thoughts.
sounds like the cheif is trying (in an undiplomatic way) to say Fireman know the risks of their job and accept those risks. We try to take every care with training, but just like real fires, some times you can't prepare for everything. The firefighters concerned in this incident had performed their training well and just as trained firefighters sometimes get close calls so did these trainee's.
or something like that?
Far from it. The two that got burned were new UNTRAINED firefighters and the 1403 standard was NOT followed. They were using borrowed gear and had not even completed their 24 hr training.
Any time an instructor expresses that getting burned is part of the job they should be removed from service.
Kind of like a Drill Sargent telling the young souldiers, "Your Here to Die". WRONG. They are there to learn how to fight and kill, or they will be killed.
While "as realistic as possible conditions" are important under controlled and highly supervised scenarios, actually burning a rookie future firefighter-or any firefighter-is out of bounds. How bad were they burned? One of the trainees has 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his hands and the other firefighter trainee has 2nd degree burns to his left arm, shoulders and to his fingers on both hands. Understand, these future firefighters had no more than a dozen hours of any firefighter training each-classroom and practical-and a part of that was basic SCBA. A few hours each-that's it.
There is a standard-NFPA 1403 that pretty much makes it clear what we should do-and not do-when training firefighters in "live" scenarios. We looked pretty hard and no where did I find anything on "how burned" we are allowed to get a firefighter trainee. Well trained? Yep. But 2nd and 3rd degree burned? ....well, ask yourself how you would want your son or daughter trained?
Preventing Deaths and Injuries to Fire Fighters during Live-Fire Training in Acquired Structures (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/wp-solutions/2005-102/)
""UNTRAINED- UNQUALIFIED firemen""
??? if untrained-unqualified, how can they be referred to as 'firemen' ?? or that probably isn't the point. I'd agree with sigidi, in that it appears a bit out of context. Sounds like this chief might like to 'inspire' his men like Bobby Knight, but jail?? ???
Not the case with this Chief. He is also quoted as saying "someone gets burned at EVERY fire, its part of the job."
The goal is to NEVER get burned. Sure its a risk but this guy says its OK. Its not OK.
This person has no regard for the standards in place to protect our firemen. We lose firemen every year to poor training like this.
Disregard for your peoples safety is criminal negligence.
Kirk Being a junior Pyro myself, if ya complacent with fire then you will get burned.
It sounds very much like this Chief is a little bit defensive, I'm sure he hasn't become a fire chief by walking in off the street, he would have to have done some time and the hot end of things
although I agree with the notion that saying something like a fireman WILL get burned at every fire is very irresponsible and hard to beleive that is how the Fire chief wants to run the fire department
Would you like a soldier next to you in a trencch who understands he may have to do something which will get him hurt or one who wraps himself in cotton wool. I know for sure your boys overseas are not there because they are worried they might get hurt, they are overseas becasue they choose to take possible hurt themselves so other don't have to
From the perspective of a ten-year veteran and former company Captain -
Anybody who gets burned is either not properly trained or is careless. There are standards and safety requirements that NEED to be followed. You can die from just getting a 'little bit' burned.
That chief should be tried on several charges, injury resulting from negligence being first and foremost. He would no longer be a firefighter anywhere, ever again.
Where do I start? I am an 18 year member, captain, training officer. This is awful. He should already be in jail. He as chief is responsible for his members. NOBODY SHOULD EVER GET BURNED IN TRAINING. We train to learn how to do it correctly. There should be room for mistakes. There are more NFPA rules about live fire training than most fire fighter even know. These are to protect. On top of all this live fire training should not happen until the practical for level 1 firefighter. How many hours is that up to now?
Will
Sounds something like " our not a logger till you drop a tree on your head" or "your not a sawyer until you only have seven fingers" or maybe "your not a cop until you have had a bullet taken out of your body". All absurd! >:(
Hey I must be a logger. ::)
Will
Engineer, wiam, THANK YOU.
I spoke with the Editor of Fire Engineering today and lets just say this has hit national press and will be covered in the March issue.
We have to stop hurting our people and justifying it when it happens. We all know the risks and with the proper training and equipment, we can safely do our job.
These two firefighters had no business in a training fire. The buck stops with the person who permitted that, which in this case is the Chief.
sigidi,
I'm sure he hasn't become a fire chief by walking in off the street, he would have to have done some time and the hot end of things
Dont be so sure of that. I cant tell you how many Chiefs I have dealt with that have NO FIRE experience. In a lot of cases, especially with small VOL fire departments the Chief as well as the members have very little fire experience because they just dont have the calls.
I know of one MAJOR city in the US who has a Chief that has never once been in a fire. Chiefs get appointed by the Mayor in most cities.
Take FDNY for example. Anyone remember Commissioner Von Essen? He was apointed as FIRE COMMISSIONER over the largest department in the world. Was he qualified? NO. Didnt hear me? NO, NO, NO, Absolutly NO >:(
He was a firefighter and union president. When Guiliani became mayor, he APPOINTED his freind to be the Commissioner. For those that dont know, The Fire commissioner is the top of the food chain in city departments. He was not a LT, CAPT, or BC. He was a firefighter. After Chief Ganci was killed at 9-11 command fell onto the hands of the Commissioner, who had never cammanded a fire scene in his life, let alone a disaster of the magnatude of 9-11.
Dont be fooled by the brass on the sleeve. Lots of folks doing there best to be the best they can and its jokers like this Chief in IN that makes it hard on all of us.
Engineer, I think you will find that this Chief will no longer have a job when the industry gets done with him. There is already a "cleansing" process started. LOTS of major players in the business of fire safety that are pushing for his immidiate removal.
I am glad to hear it will go national. Do you know any more details about the training? What went wrong?
I know of a chief that started at 18 years old. No one wanted the job.
By the way I have been told that as training officer that I am just as liable as the chief if something goes wrong. :o :o
Will
I will share as I get it. I know that if you look through the web site for the department you will find shots of gear that has been exposed to high heat. Black gear turns color from Heat damage. In one photo the guys borg shields are melted and curled. "the cool look". Damage to his crews gear is reflective of the operation and lack of education.
I can tell you that after looking at the departments web site, this guy is toast.
http://www.rememberindiana.com/marionfire/fun/index.htm
As far as being liable goes, you need to make sure you NEVER train outside your knowledge and qaulifications. If your following the standards your covered. I always suggest doing more than the minimum though, as lawyers love to nail people that only meet the minimums.
I too have met many 18-20 year old Chiefs for the same reason.
Some interesting quotes from some very respected Fire Officers regarding this event.
BROTHERS,
I usually don't answer many of the transmissions you all have though it is enjoyable to read the dialogue and in most cases realize that our job is in good hands ascending. However I can think quickly of 4 more stupid comments to attest about what is wrong and went wrong with our job than this training fire comment by the fire chief. The sad part is that after all my interaction with the national scene and with 33,000 departments – there are so many more around us that don't get a chance to show their "stupid" until it is too late for the uniformed casualty.
Here is to more of them getting a chance to "stand and get labeled out" like this nitwit.
Tom Brennan
If this is true, then this dept. didn?t even meet the Mandatory Requirements and definitely violated 1403. They need to be investigated and punished, if not jailed. Maybe Instructor Certifications could be revoked, etc. Let?s make an example out of these guys so this dept. doesn?t kill anyone.
Chief Goldfeder
If anyone knows these folks on this department you might tell them to get rid of the photo links they have because those alone should get the Chief canned.
If you follow the links from there web site it takes you to another site with series shots of fires they hvae been on. Now I dont know about he rest of you but with all the poison gas's from a vehicle fire I prefer to wear my SCBA, as is required.
http://www.snapshotz.biz/vehblock/
I'm sorry I missed this earlier.
I am a career fire fighter for 16 years and now a paid captain with the BLM and a Volunteer engineer (17 years) with the county that I live in so I am greatful to get the best of the two worlds of fire. In my normal job it is also my responsibility to train new firefighters and mentor the lead firefighters.
The first thing rookies hear from me is that safety is the highest priority on any incident and on the job as a whole. There are far to many ways to get killed in the line of duty to help fate with stupidity and lack of situational awarness. As for this chief the firefighters should have never been following this man if this is his mentality. The only person ultimatly responsible for your safety is you, stand up and shout that it is not safe if you feel that it isn't. Your supervisor or company officer can not hold your hand and do their job as well that is why your not to be on the job untill you have the required training , NO EXEPTIONS, a trianing burn is live fire and considered to be the real deal at all times.
I am the first to say that a firefighter is to blame for being stupid or just not paying attention but this chief has the responsibility to ensure his folks are trained an qualified to be where they are. OSHA is going to have a field day with this yahoo.
tmullen
company 3158 motto
all who ride out on the engine , come back on the engine, no exeptions
sorry to rant
this subject is just a little close to my heart since I lost a friend on the toulumne fire in 04.
just my two cents take it or leave it. :) :)
tmullen
tmullen, I don't think you need to apologize for any of that. I was a crew chief on a small forest fire, no formal training but had worked on a mop up crew so I was the only one with experience, ::) and the safety of the men was my single biggest concern. Most of them were students. IMHO, there is absolutely no room for anyone, especially the leaders, with that chief's attitude on a crew. I am sure glad I am not being traiined by him.
tmullen, I too have tried to keep quiet on this issue. I lost one of my past students on the King Mountain incident a few years ago. She had been well trained as a "hotshot" and yet she and several others got cought. It sounds as though there will be some time spent in an enclosure for the folks at the top of the command chain and training.
Kirk,
From what you have written, I think the chief should be burned at the stake. ;D I can't fathom expecting any Firefighter to get burned at any call. I think the idea is to extinguish the fire with nobody getting hurt.
With that said......................My VFD is small, but the best equiped in our county, which is very poor. We have had 96 calls since December 1 ( normal year is about 325), to some that may seem minor, but we are all volunteer and only a few of us make calls on a regular basis. We are not trained to the level we would like, much less to levels required by paid departments. No way do I feel that I'm qualified to be Assistant Chief, but I am. I see no way that we can or ever will reach all standards, but we do a DanG good job when called IMO. Family, Jobs, lack of funding..........How can an all VFD ever meet such high standards????????? ??? ??? ??? How can we be held to standards which we absolutely cannot meet ???
Thanks for your help with the NFPA standards and the link to view them, along with all the other info you pass on forestry and otherwise.
Living only about 20 miles away for Marion this is not the only problem that they need to deal with. I hate even being in the town. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of really nice good people there but that common sense in the town is laking.
There was a fire at one of the lumber yards a few years back. I had to go to the car deal that was right close so I went out and around to get there because I thought with a fire like that they would have the road closed off for safety. Guess what! The had both lanes open cars were all looky lous. There was one pumper working and the others were standing back watching. The lumber yards was a total loss.
None of this story surprised me as sad as it is.
Kirk- In this training could the trainees have refused to go in since they were not qualified? Did not know if that would have cause problems or not. But I guess of they trusted him (which we now know they should not have) you would do what he told you to do.
ok. volly firefighter here, 7 years in service, 2 year LT, on my first year as captain. L1 cert, and just took my pump opps. along with numerous other courses..
my $0.02, no firefighter should ever be burned. if things are done right, and they are equiped properly, they will never sustain injurary. now in a fire nothing ever goes as planned, or right, but it's up to the men to have the training and know how to back out when it's beyond them.
as an officer, i'm am liable for everything i do on the fireground. if i send an untrained crew in, it's gonna come back on me. if an experianced crew goes in and gets hurt, it's gonna come back on me. and i try to do everything with that in the back of my mind. this is a dangerous job, paid or volly, and IMHO, when the call's over everyone goes home...
one last thing, just cause a department is volly, doesn't mean thier not experianced. our department sees more fully involved structure fires in a year, then any one shift at a paid fire house will see. ( i mean more then a one room fire) we've got a few assistant instructors in our hall, and one who's now an instructor, that teaches the pre-employment program for the paid ff's.
weather paid, or volly, we're all in this together, stay safe guys, and remember to watch each other's back 8)
Were the trainees were trained enough to refuse. The ultimate responsibility goes to the chief when new members are trained.
NFPA does not see any difference in the level of training for volunteer of career fire departments. Niether does OSHA.
Will
Whatever they do to this moron chief won't be enough. Anybody that doesn't think anymore of his men than to expect them to get burned is TOO STUPID to be left breathing. It's hard enough to get good firefighters as it is ,and then some moron like this comes along-----sheeeees
Dail,
Calling that guy a 'Moron' is insulting to real morons. Scientists tell us there is no such thing as a 'negative IQ' , but that guy might be getting close.
VA-Sawyer
Here's my 2 cents, 7 years of EMT cert and now 2 years volunteer FF red card cert working on Pro Board, 1st thing ever taught in either class is "Personal Safety" more particular in FF "Fireman Safety" also, in training situations they are supposed to be "Safe" situations in which to learn. If someone gets hurt in a "Safe" situation, something is wrong, very wrong. In my book it would be similar to telling a bunch of techs and paramedics "We may have contaminiated some of you with HIV at our last IV training, but if you're not willing..." GET REAL >:(, just because we are willing to take the risk does not mean we have to be injured to prove our dedication, sorry, starting to rant.
Remember, in most every industry there are two major things that will get you hurt (killed) indecision and complacency, think either one may have been in play?
God speed to those who have gone before me.
katie,
Kirk- In this training could the trainees have refused to go in since they were not qualified? Did not know if that would have cause problems or not. But I guess of they trusted him (which we now know they should not have) you would do what he told you to do.
The problem would be these guys probably had no idea of what training they were supposed to have so in their eyes, they followed the instructors, who I understand were running the burn training.
This inciident is now on Radio Firehouse and I know will be mentioned in the next issue of Fire Enginerring.
http://www.radiofirehouse.com/broadcast/2006/02/10/live-fire-training-getm-in-there-and-do-what
This is a quote from the investigation report of a Florida Fire Fighter Death during TRAINING. >:(
The training ground must be the safest, most controlled environment in any profession. Trainees reported feeling threatened with termination if they failed an event, or reported injuries. Other personnel that had been previously involved in recruit training verified this.
Conditions were clearly beyond the training level of the trainees, and safety and emergency procedures obviously were not sufficient or not followed.
At the time this report was prepared, the Office of the State Attorney, 17th Judicial Circuit of Florida, had not determined if criminal charges would be filed relative to homicide or culpable negligence.
These guys had the option not to go if it was unsafe, BUT, they were untrained and inexperienced, so the probably didn't know it was unsafe. They trusted the instructor.
In EMS, construction, logging, milling and life in general I have learned from people who came before (Instructor) and have taught the next generation. The greenhorn does not have the experience to make the decision if something is safe or not much of the time. In my opinion that is what makes the instructor liable.
If you are going to teach anyone anything you have to have their trust, to get it you have to earn it. I'm sure word probably got out about him long ago, even if it just someone that got slightly burned and told some buddies about it at the local bar. How many young FF did not go that route because of this?
I have been a member of an industrial fire brigade for 15 years. WV Fireman 1&2 certified with countless hours of training certificates from fire to hazmat to confined space and high angle rescue. I competed on a 5 man team in state competition for several years. I said all that to say that for anyone to get hurt in any way in training somebody messed up. That is the whole purpoase of training is to practice for the unexpected. This is the reason I never joined a local volunteer department. All of the "volunteer groups around beleive that in a training fire the hotter the better. I am not saying they don't do a good job just I don't want to be a part of it.
Kirk, The arrogance and foolishness of that chief is unbelievable. I was one of those guys who became a volunteer fire chief at the age of 28. My biggest fear was getting someone hurt or killed due to my ignorance. We concentrated on going outside the department for training, and bringing back the things we learned to the members. Although we greatly improved, and I think became a very good department, eight years later when I gave up the position we still had a lot to do. I have to say keeping up with the standards both from a financial and a time standpoint had a lot to do with my decision to resign. I could see the fire department needed more from me than it was getting, and my own business needed the time and effort I was putting into the department. Luckily the guy who replaced me didn't have that problem. He has never been outside the department for training, and is happy as long as the trucks and station are spotless. After about four years of that, I left for good.
Kirk, thanks for posting this, how big a dept are we talking about? (Not that it matters) I cannot even comprend this "style" of management, wouldn't fly here! Jail's too nice a spot for this joker with rank. Bet he nevers gets out on the fireline where some mishap might burn him. Stay safe Brothers.
Faron, I can relate to the time and money issue. Our local department, as most, are hurting for funds and for all the wrong reasons they only have a meeting one night a month. You cant TRAIN you people properly by meeting once a month. AND you cant train them without proper funding to access the proper training.
Its a vicious circle.
BW, I am not sure how big the department is but I know they have a dive teem, water rescue and are caim to be High Angle Rescue qaulified.
I found out they have an OFFICIAL web site for the department and an UNOFFICIAL web site. The last sentence of their mission statemtent I found bothersome.
We will continue to work diligently to uphold our probationary oath, sworn to serve and protect our citizens of Marion, at all cost.
I dont know about everyone else but I have never been trained with an "AT ALL COST" attitude. Maybe with the events that have happen I am reading to much into it but I belive its that "ready to die" attitude that is killing our firefighters nation wide. Sure we need to do all we can but not at the risk of killing more people.
At all cost...... are you kidding we can't even use the can do attitude any more.
After the South Canyon (Storm King) fire were we lost 14 of the finest firefighters in one fail swoop the investigation team said it was the can do attitude that put those folks in the spot they were.
I remember the days of that motto and I know that safty of firefighters and the public was and still remains the highest priority. At all cost does not portray that safety is the highest priority.
I can relate to declining volunteer rosters, my dept. is down to 4 of us responding to an average of 325 calls a year. I believe the answer is to get the states and federal government to give tax breaks to volunteer firefighters, maybe we could have a little more acountability for training and responses, if you don't play you don't get the breaks. The training issue is a hard one. training once a month is not adiquate, we train 3 times a month for a toatle of 12 hours and do a after action review of every call. It is dificult to comit that much time away from family but that is the job like it or not.
Frank I too knew folks on the mountain that day and I think of them often. They taught me to always question the plans and evaluate them for my self and to speak up if I do not agree.
tmullen
Train Like You Fight
Fight Like You Train