Which scale is most used? I want to order a LogRite but don't know which scale is most commonly used. I googled it but math stuff comes up not log stuff. I hope this is a simple question. ???
Scribner?
Doyle?
International?
Ask around log yards, sawmills, loggers and such to see what is used in your area.
There is no one standard used everywhere. It seems that each area uses a diffrent scale for its own unique reason.
It is a simple question but the answer is: It depends....
In my area, Southern Maryland the prevelant scale is Doyle. Not sure why, but the biggest mill in the area uses it so we all do.
Mark
That's what i was afarid of. Shouldn't be too hard to find out though. I don't want to buy all three. I wonder if there is a stick that HAS all three? A 3-sided stick would be a good idea maybe.
Hi kevjay,
Ga_Boy is right when it comes to recommending a log scale. Different parts of the country tend to standardize on one of these three scales. Kevin might have a better idea of the scale most used in your area. I'll talk to him in the morning.
I also recall a pretty detailed thread that described some of the history and usage of the 3 scales. I will try out the FF search function and see if I can find it for you.
Pete
In your area, I think everyone would be using the Doyle log rule excepting the USFS which uses Scribner. I can't speak for LogRite sticks, but I can tell you buying a scale stick is not just as simple as choosing the right scale method (Scribner, Doyle, International 1/4", or the Maine rule), it also involves getting a stick with the correct measurement marks. For example, in most of the areas of the South that I have done work in, scalers measure the diameters rounded to the nearest inch (e.g. an 11.4" diameter is taken as 11" and an 11.9" diameter is taken as 12"), so if this is the case for your area, you should have a stick with the inch lines on what would actually be the 0.5" mark (i.e., the 12" line occurs at 11.5"). I have seen mills in a few areas of the south that use a stick that has the 12" line on 12", which means that an actual diameter of 11.99" is measured as an 11" diameter. Further confusion lies in the common practice by many mills in the Southeast of "giving one bark" - in other words measuring the diameter outside of one bark thickness and inside of the other, while other mills give no bark (I always figured the "one bark" idea was to offset some of the under-scale that you get from Doyle in logs under 20". I have not seen any personally, but have heard that some mills give both barks (crazy that a thick barked field pine would get extra scale, while a nice tight-grained shortleaf pine would get less because of its thin bark).
If you end up with a Scribner scale stick, make sure to get Scribner decimal "C" East-side scale. Scribner has a revised Scribner, which gives different volumes (used in California, Oregon, Washington and Alaska that is not used in the rest of the US). Also, some scale stick manufacturers sell Scribner sticks which have volumes down to the last BF (for example 28 bf); these are not used by anyone for commercial purposes that I have seen. The stick should have the volumes shown in 10 BF multiples and generally the zero is dropped (decimal C), so a log with 28 bf shows up as a 3 (for 30 BF).
If your not going to use the stick to buy logs and only want it to predict lumber tally, use the International 1/4" stick and make sure that it has the diameter lines on the half inch. A great guide for scaling using the International 1/4" rule can be found at: http://extension.unh.edu/Pubs/ForPubs/nhblspg.pdf .
Good luck
The scale stick is still a tool to estimate volume. Giving one bark is not just a southeast thing as that is how our mills have always scaled, but thats mostly on thin barked trees, ,mostly northern hardwoods. We ain't dumb though. If we get a real scaly bark tree like a shag bark or a real thick bark on a burr oak, you compensate. You use your other scaling tools and skills. Namely using common sense gained from experience, making adjustments the same as you would for sweep or other obvious defect.
Your scale should not necessarily be based on what the other guy is doing, it should be based on what is agreeable and familiar with your customers and business associates. Thats all that matters. That the buyer and seller are on the same page. You can use the inky-finky-weeniebob scale as long as you both agree upon it.
Jeff where can I get one of those inky-finky-weeniebob scales I have all the others and I want to compare ::). In my area I use doyle just over the PA line a big mill uses scribner. Go a little south a mill uses international. Talk about confusing up until recently the forest service here used a New Jersey Doyle scale that measures standing trees in ten foot logs instead of 16 foot logs. Now they have switched to International.
we're on international it seems down here in the south end of the state 40ish!
We have one mill that buys some logs in Doyle and some in Scribner. I have yet to see a veneer buyer buy in anything but Doyle. So, most loggers use Doyle. And I don't know of anyone giving one bark, especially in oak or tulip poplar.
Great info in all these replies. Gracias.
Perhaps amazingly I think I get it all except possibly the thing that you fellers in-the-know would take for granted I would understand the easitest ..... "One bark". It is used in a way that is unclear to me what it means. Do you mean that when you give "one bark" that you are not scaling the log outside the bark but scaling it inside of the bark? That's the only thing I can figure.
And if I am reading correctly, I should probably have all three sticks after all no?
Don't know why one rule wouldn't work. Int'l 1/4" would give you the closest estimate of the board footage in a given log. If that is the information you want to know about a log you are buying and/or sawing, then it should do the trick for ya. Measuring diameter inside the bark on the small end is the rule (see the new hampshire site cited earlier). Don't know where including the bark on one side and measuring inside the bark on the other ever managed to get a foothold. Just smears the rule and the estimate, IMO.
Keeping records as Bibby did to learn what your own mill yields under your operative habits to check the estimate from the rule is helpful. Then one knows if he is high, low, above or below. If another rule is used to check the buyers scale, fine. But if buying logs, and wanting to know what the log will likely yield, I'd get the Int'l rule stick.
For those 'hedge' logs, looks like a fair amount of scale reduction will be in order for deep cracks, included bark fisures, and crooked logs. Just a guess though.
Buy on Doyle sell on International is the saying up here so as a compromise everyone uses Scribner Dec C. More than one veneer buyer has been ran off the landing when he pulled out his Doyle stick. We had a coupla wanna be timber buyers stop with their Doyle stick when we were finishing up a maple harvest. I got out my Scribner stick to compare. In the size logs we had Doyle sure wouldn't of done us any favors. We never heard from them again after we told them everyone up here used Scribner. I had a veneer buyer who'd bought from us several times before get out his Doyle stick on my last sale >:( When I asked what he was doing with it he was quick to point out he was only measuring diam. with it. His handheld computer did the scaling in Scribner. It did I checked ;) ;D
Did the price change? Usually, when they use other scales, then the price is adjusted. In the end, the value of a log doesn't change, but the numbers getting there do.
Here we use inter or Roy ;) who is about 4% more then inter :)
It's official. I'm back in the state of confusion. ???
I'll juyst have to learn the hard way .... through my pocketbook :( ;D
No need to be in a state of confusion. I'm assuming you're looking to buy off of loggers. Simple solution is to use the scale they use. Talk apples and apples.
How logs are scaled in my area and what rule they use has little bearing for your area.
Elliot was paying the same $ per bdft on Scribner as others were paying on Doyle.
I am not surprised that there is so much confusion regarding log scales. Quite frankly, the only reason that the inconsistency in procedures and units of measure have been tolerated for so long is that the industrial timber owners (long term players) figure out all of the systems and the particulars of scaling methods of each company they deal with. The private timber owner, however, usually only get one shot and thus will never know how they really ended up. Think about it, one mill pays $350/M Scribnner; the next $380/M Doyle (one bark - with rounded diameters, e.g., 11.6" = 12"); another mill is paying $400/M Doyle (inside bark, truncated diameters[diameter lines on the inch], e.g., 11.6" = 11"); and finally the last mill is paying $310/M International (we have not even discussed the variability with defect deduction methods/merchantability (cull) or individual scaler tendencies)...are you going to have any idea which is the best deal? Heck no...you are not going to have a clue, and given that maybe half of what you sell the wood for will be going to log and haul costs, it could be the difference between having $20k in the bank vs. having $40k in the bank.
Personally, I think it would be a good thing if there was an industry-wide move to standardize procedures within regions to the greatest extent possible. No wonder the poor scaler is always viewed with a weary eye.
Sorry KevJay, this is not helping you much. Bottom line, decide on a unit of measure (in your region it will primarily be Doyle), and back into what your break-even log value is by running some tests based on whatever unit of measure you decide on and figuring your manufacturing costs and mill depreciation. This will tell you what you can pay. In addition, you might contact the USFS or a local mill scaler to see if you can bird-dog them a bit to learn scaling (there is a lot to it and knowing measuring procedures and being able to recognize defects and what they will do to you will make a big difference.
Extra They did exactly that (standarize log scale) here in New Hampshire. Everyone works off the international rule. Makes thing easy for everyone involved.
This has been highly educational. I like that bird-dog advice too. I'll be checking around.
Most of the loggers here sell by the ton. I want to learn to scale not to buy mostly but to figure what i have in a log laying in my yard before I have it sitting there in a pile of lumber. I'd like to be able to eventuallly scale a log, deduct defects, run it through the mill, and have it come out pretty DanG close.
Of course, it would be handy for buying selling also.
Oh yeah - I still don't know what "One Bark" means? ???
One bark , is when they mesure from the outside of one bark on a log to the inside of the other . ;)
Okay. Simple enough. Could you give me an example?
When you say they measure from the outside of one to the inside of another - are they laying right beside each other or what?
:D :D :D Your scale stick has a hook on one end. If you hook that outside the bark on the side of a log and measure to the inside of the bark on the other and don't subtract the bark thickness on the first side, that's one bark. If you measure to the outside oth the bark on both sides, that would be 2 barks. You're supposed to measure inside the bark on both sides for the scale to work right.
There ya go throwing more new terms in there. Now you're talking TWO barks. I'm gonna stay with One Bark, Two Bark, and NO Bark. If you tell me about Three Barks I quit! :D
On a serious note MinnBoy - thanks because now I understand what one bark is. I think. :P
isawlogs you just didn't realize exactly how ignorant of a subject you was dealing with here. ::)
Kevjay I colored you a picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/one_bark.gif)
AWESOME! 8) 8) 8) Those are the kinds of words I can see!
I was expecting to hear something about colorblindness ;) ;D :) :) :) :) ;) ;)
I always mesure left to right .. will it work backwards too ???
Being ambidextrous that won't present a problem for me. smiley_flipping