Yes, for the last week or so, I have been researching/determining (or, attempting to) the ever-so burning question (so I am finding), "Sheeeesh, which one?"
I have a few acres (and have had since the little rascals were about 5' tall) of planted pines who now have about 25-30 yr growth on them. I've looked into other folks coming in and cutting...but, that is't going to work out. I have only taken what I have absolutely had to over the years. Now, with upcoming building projects, safety of house and other buildings, tree progress, etc., I am going to have to start cutting.
Certainly, I can use a lot of lumber myself, but when I invest in a mill, it is going to need to hold its own water (having been in business over 30 yrs, no investment gets a 'free ride').
From what I have seen, thusfar, the manual mills are not intimidating to me at all. I don't mind maintenance on one, but feel that should be a minimal procedure.
One of my notable concerns, in what I have studied, is the tracking of the head on the frame.
Until today, I had it narrowed down to Hud-Son (there is a dealer within 50 miles), LogMaster (because they manufacture within 75 miles), TimberKing (though it is more initial money, it has standard what others do not and seems as though it is heavier built).
But, today, in finding this forum, I discovered Norwood 2000. It looks as good (to me) as the TimberKing 1220.
For those who may have knowledge and/or experience in any of these machines, I welcome any input. Is the tracking as good as it appears from limited photos on the Norwood? TimberKing?
The Hud-Son 30 and the LogMaster LM1 have what appear to be minimal logframe and tracking. Though I could probably improve that, I have other things to do (like cut, build and...oh, yes still work my 'day job').
Since I have been in this forum today rummaging around, I am less inclined toward the Hud-Son.
I REALLY like the TimberKing 1660, but that kind of expenditure, at the present, is quite out of the question.
The LogMaster LM1 is yet strong because of its nearby manufacturing and is a little better tuned (in my limited knowledge opinion) than the Hud-Son.
Any experiences/knowledge of the Norwood 2000 and/or Timberking 1220 (good, bad or indifferent) would be quite helpful.
Not familiar with either the Norwood or Timberking.
I assume what your looking at is along the lines of the Wood Mizer LT-10 or LT15.
When it comes to holding there own, if your going to sell it when your project is done, which is common with the smaller manual mills, the WM sure holds its value.
With that, Any of the mill mfg's found on the left offer quality mills.
I have not ruled out the WM, but I am awaiting my info package from them.
My concerns with them are the 'monorail' system and what is seemingly a 'flexible' head.
I would like to hear more about them.
Welcome to the forum!
Don't worry about the monorail a bit.
For one thing, the WM mills in your price range ( lt10 and lt15 ) dont have it, they are two rail mills like the Timber King. For another, contrary to some manufacturer's sales pitch, the Woodmizer's quality of cut is not affected at all by the sawhead " flopping around like crazy " ;D
FWIW, I think you are on the right track looking at the Norwood. If I were just getting started, that would be my hands down choice. Don't let the orange cheerleaders muddy the water on you.
With the exception of the LT10 and LT28, woodmizers are built on single beam frames with cantilever heads. Because Woodmizer has been "king of Hill" in sales for so many years, other companies may sometimes use the cantilever head as a negative selling point to bolster their design. Having been a user of both designs, cantilever and 4-post, I'll assure you that they both are capable of creating good lumber and I take nothing away from either.
As you delve into the products you will find that the cantilever also rests on 4 points. They are vertically arranged rather than horizontally arranged. The cantilever design allows for more clearance on large and ugly logs than a 4-post design. Everything on the mill is adjustable to correct for variances throughout the life of the mill.
Most of the 4-post designs have no adjustments to compensate for one leg being out of line with the others. But, then it is seldom needed because most 4-post mills are built on flexible frames and compensation is done by continually leveling the frame.
There are reasons, and good ones too, for the two different designs. While one person may prefer one over the other, much has to do with the cost of design and development as well as the ease of portability and setup.
Most of the smaller mills are too light weight to depend on just their mass for strength and depend on a good base having been built. The amount of flexibility in these little frames is the concern over how heavy a base is required. It's not just the saw that needs the rigidity and support, it's the saw with a 2 ton log resting upon it that must be turned and generally "flops" down on its flat side. Even the smallest mill must be beefy enough to withstand this.
Other concerns should be the availability and cost of parts, the customer support record of the company and the general knowledge in the real world that can help you learn to operate and maintain the design that you choose. Buying a "one-off", spiffy, guaranteed-to-be-better-than-anyone-else's, sawmill may not be the thing to do if you find yourself being the only one in the world with one.
Along with a company's customer service and parts availability, it is important that you have at your fingertips all of the documentation it will take to maintain the mill. These aren't automobiles that you can return to the dealer and give them a wad of money if it breaks. You're elected to fix it when it goes down. It may be at home, where you have a workshop, or it may be 40 miles from civilization, in the middle of a swamp where you were taken in by boat. If you are offered nothing but an "operators" manual, beware. You will need detailed specifications about how everything works, hose and wire lengths, blade diagnostics, bearing sizes, belt sizes, pulley sizes, chain sizes and lengths, every little detail is provided by a company that is concerned about your success as a businessman. Look for the availability of 800 numbers with trained people on the other end that can help you in a bind. Be concerned over the number of hours these people are available and where the warehouse is located relative to your time zone.
Look for the most horsepower and the most log handling capabilities you can get for your dollar regardless of the color.
Once you think you have a good idea what you want, go to an Agricultural Fair and watch them operate. I don't mean for an hour. I mean for the entire length of the fair. Yes you will get bored and tired, but it's the only way, short of owning one, to learn the real differences and which is best for you. After you have done this, you are ready to visit a friend who has one and watch him operate it for a few days. Maybe something will break while you are there and you will see what kind of dilemma it puts him in. Maybe he'll let you get a little hands-on time.
Once you know everything.... buy the mill and take it home, don't fall into the trap that so many new sawyers fall into. Don't think that you know it all after a 5 or 6 weeks of sawing a few logs. You are going to find that it will take you the better part of a year to become proficient running the machine and the rest of your life learning about sawing logs and the business end. Every log is different. Not only is opening it a learning experience but an Easter egg hunt as well. That is were the really fun part of being a sawyer takes place. Wood workers can talk about the beauty of wood all they want, but they don't get the opportunity to experience the wonderful sights we sawyers get to see.
a lot of your choice should center around whether or not you may be interested in custom sawing. a small sawmill isn't too good for custom sawing. I have a Hud-son Oscar 28, it's good for me, but I meet people who want custom jobs done pretty regularly, and the Oscar just isn't up to that challenge, IMO.
the best I've sawn on a day was 350 board feet over a 6 hour period, with a helper. we could have sawn more, but we had to do some cleanup before we started. if you have a tractor/loader, then a manual isn't nearly as bad.
I can see myself with a nice wood-mizer in a few years. I agree with Tom, you get to see some bueatiful wood when sawing up logs.
I have been looking to be a first time sawyer/buyer for two years now. The first thing I'd say is that ALL of our sponsors on the left here make respectable mills. Some of them at the top of their product line are rather spectacular. I'd like to buy about half a dozen of them, but will be lucky to ever buy one.
Since I work in my woodshop every day, I have had a lot of experience with table saws, radial arm saws, and band saws. They are all good and each has its ideal application. I tend to always lean toward the table saw. My two bandsaws are too finicky to suit me. There are SO many variables that affect the quality of the cut. With the table saw or radial arm saw, once a few basic things are checked out, it is all up to the operator to make the cut right and proper.
Given my woodshop experiences, I am finding myself partial to something with a circular blade over a band. To me a swingblade is a whole lot like a radial arm saw. My first purchase will probably be a swingblade.
IMHO,
Jim
;) I have no memory of ever being bored. Believe me, if I had opportunity to go to a show, I would easily outlive my 'welcome'.
In studying the WM's design, much of the engineering is understandable.
Having been in the building/remodeling/cabinet building business for many years, I have produced tons of sawdust from the various finishing tools, working on tools, building tools and dealing with various dynamics of different woods and their tool relationship (as well as personal relationship).
The unique experience I have seen in this forum is invaluable and indescribeably appreciated.
I still have a very small cabinet shop attached to my gun shop (my focus of endeavor for the last several years).
As I have ordered a new tractor/loader this week (replacing what used to be and knowing the need in moving timber around), I am having to initially be very cautious (I do have expenditure limits) :o, yet focused in my attention to a prompt, yet well-researched decision on a mill. I have already committed to the 'program' .
Information of experience and expertise of all sides is very helpful.
TCSMPSI,
Welcome to the forum. You're at the right place now. I have a Norwood 2000,and do portable custom sawing full time. Full time sawing on a manuel mill is hard work ,but not undoable ,even for a guy more than a half a century old. i LOOKED A A GAGILLION KINDS OF MILLS BEFORE BUYING MINE ,ooops ,got videos and watched them till it seemed they all ran together.Eventualy mills began to disqualify themselves ,based on price,construction,available options,or the lack of them.
Is the Norwood the best sawmill on the market------NO. But it is aVery GOOD entry level mill,and it's affordable ,with GOOD customer service to back it up.It comes disasembled in boxes,so by the time you get it sawing,you will have a good idea how everything works.
Like Tom said,once you narrow the field some,try to see,or even try those mills that you are interested in ,most mill owners are glad to demo their mills.
GOOD LUCK -----Sawdust fever is terminal ;D
I thank everyone for the warm welcome and sharing.
Brad_S,
Since you lead me to believe you are not new to milling, what about the N 2000 would lead you to its respectable first time machine?
Tom,
Thank you for the detailed information and confirming my thoughts on the WM machines. You too, woodbeard. I am not easily eluded by advertising/marketing rhetoric. ;) Actually, if I were to go WM, I believe I would go ahead with the LT28. It is more money than what I am initially looking at, but it is also more complete in serving a more portable application.
Dan,
Yes, I am interested in custom sawing, though I am sure the Hudson is quite a useable machine, I believe my production will be better benefited by another. Though, I do have an appointment next week to go and get a hand on a 30.
Jim,
I don't know if I can readily express my own excitement in finally seeing the prospect of being able to work wood from the ground up. Especially in being able to utilize sizes, grains, etc. for unique walls, ceilings and cabinetry, not readily available at lumberyards.
Kirk,
It would be the unusual prospect for me to consider selling the mill. I might add to. WAY too many trees around for it not to be utilized.
dail_h,
Which engine do you have on your Norwood? Likes/dislikes?
I wondered how in the world I even got along before I reached the half-century mark. ???
***
I am thinking that when I do decide on a mill, one of the things that I also need to factor in the price is a good supply of blades. I am thinking a minimum of ten to begin with.
Are there any "super blades" that are actually worth the extra money?
I received the Norwood information packet and dvd yesterday. Pretty impressive machine for the price.
There are alot of attachments, package deals, etc. Then do you need an edger? The Lumbermate w/Honda 20hp electric start without any options is about 6k to your front door. Looks like for 10k you can have a nice package of options. The more I think about it, the more I need to research all options and brands. :P
I am sure glad I am not getting into this discussion. I always seem to make folks upset with me. So, what's new. ;D :'(
I think the biggest problem is that folks tend to like their own saw and so they talk-up what they own. I have only ever sawed with a WM15 and it seems really good to me so I can only say good things about it. Can I point out some things that I would like to inprove? Sure, but it may be that I just need to buy the next saw up in price to get those improvements...and this may be true for most of the brands.
I'm now going thru the exact same selection process in trying to choose which swinger to buy.
With that said, there are some highly experienced sawyers here that can give you pretty accurate pros and cons if you can get them to do it. It seems that all of the sponsors that you see to the left here built good machines...so making a choice is hard but no matter what your choice, you'll be able to make boards from logs :D
Quinton
Well, Gee, Frank....certainly it is not I who would take offense. Not like you would be talking about my dog, Buck.
I think everyone here is satisfied with their mills. I am happy with my Turner, so I guess we can conclude everyone of them saws wood and not one of them has everything. Find the best price you can and the dealer you feel good about and dive in.
on the manual mills don't scare me note, I can't find your age but even when I was a bit younger the HD part of my WM came in handy. So my 2 cents buy a woodmizer HD used for the price of the new one you are considering. Also by the way I have just a few small pines you can practice on Ifin you like. (see new blue stuff at general board.) :D
Can I come practice on your pines too? I like the one on top. ;D :o 8)
Quote from: Frank_Pender on April 01, 2006, 11:58:11 AM
I always seem to make folks upset with me....
I take offense to that! Are you directing that toward me?! You're always picking fights you scoundrel! ;D
tcsmpsi - my ¢2 is like a broken record. GET HYRAULICS if you can afford them. That'/s about all you need to know. ;) :)
tcsmpsi, Take that 75 mile ride up 59 and talk to Ed at Log Master. I won't be a wasted trip. Very well built mills, parts are off the shelf, good people, too.
I researched for three years, before I purchased my first mill. The question that came back to me in the process of searching was: "What type of lumber do you want to produce and how accurate and productive do you want to be in producing that material?" For the production rate, ease of maintaince, variety of dimensions as well as ease of making changes for the dimensions I chose my mill. In fact, I now own two of them. Own the only two factory produced hydraulic mills that have been made.
Would I change? No! If I can get them to produce a model several of us are trying to get them to produce, I will buy a third. The only thing you can legally have one of, is a wife and sometimes that is one tooooo many! ;D By the way I only have one wife, but 4 sawmills.
Tcsmpsi..
One thing I learned after getting many of the manufacturers sales packets, and the talking with sales people on the phone, I later found much of what I was told was a pile of bunk. No names mentioned, but some of these sales guys were full of crap and told me items about their equipment, and the competition that just was plain false. So take it all in, and read as much as you can here on this forum.
By the way..
just picked up a sweet all original 1961 vintage Model 70 in thutty aught six.. 8) :) 8)
My only experience has been with Woodmizer. I bought my mill used and have had great customer service from them. Help and advise is only an 800 number away.
call the factories and see if they have someone close who would be willing to demo one for you. Lay your hands on as many as you can and try to cut lumber on as many as you can. You won't know for sure what you really like on one or the other but you should know instantly if ther is something on it you don't like or wouldn't want to live with.
Hands on cutting is the key.
Just my .02
Tom
Frank is right in asking what you want to make. That has alot to do with what mill you choose. Some small mills can only saw a 24 inch dia log. So if your pines out grow it in a few years what you going to do? Pine all you going to saw? How wide do you want to make boards or how thick has something to do with choice. Are parts for the engine local? Here if you have a Onan you are in bad shape.
There are lots of good mills out there like the Mr. Sawmill I went and looked at a few weeks back. I can still remember picking out my mill. Even though she broke down Saturday after 1.5 million bdft I would choose her again if I had it to do all over.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10186/DSC01348F.JPG)
My great theory now is buy bigger than what you need right now and you will still need it bigger down the road.Try to look as much as you can.I"ve been to small demos on a rainy day that I saw in the paper.Was put on by a local foresty group.Lots of infro from them.I bet I looked for 4-5 years before I bought mine.I don't use mine much,it's from a local machine shop,but never had any trouble with it.Just look and ask the people who use them.They can make anything look good on TV too.
Hey, Tom and Brad, thank you for the personal notes and interest.
Let me see if I can address some of the queries and 'concerns'.
Quote from: jpgreen on April 02, 2006, 01:10:49 AM
By the way..
just picked up a sweet all original 1961 vintage Model 70 in thutty aught six.. 8) :) 8)
I'll tell you what, go ahead and send me the M70, if I like it, I'll send you $250. ;D I got 2 dogs, too.... ;)
Quote from: Woodwalker on April 01, 2006, 10:32:16 PM
tcsmpsi, Take that 75 mile ride up 59 and talk to Ed at Log Master. I won't be a wasted trip. Very well built mills, parts are off the shelf, good people, too.
That's on the agenda ASAP. Thanks.
Quote from: woodmills1 on April 01, 2006, 04:58:48 PM
on the manual mills don't scare me note, I can't find your age
I used to be an AARP member. ;D For as long as I can remember, it has been much more sensible and beneficial to build helpers, rather than hire them.
Well...they just called and said that they have my tractor/loader loaded and should be heading out shortly! (one of those helpers)
I'm not going to be researching for much longer before I make a decision. I got trees, some are going to HAVE to come down very soon (in the way of my building projects). I have PLENTY to 'practice' on. :D I need the wood to finish out some of these projects. That is my 'immediate' plan.
I won't be at any loss for raw material, regardless of the production I may evolve into. Will probably be mostly pine and oak, but, who knows? Anything is possible.
I am going to have to have a good, capable mill that that will be in the $6000 range most likely (unless some magical financial plan happens) , and I am going to need to start the process soooon.
However, in time....well, I'm apt to get most anything. Sure, I would love to evolve into fine hydraulic portable rig. Right now, I don't see how I can financially make that happen. Unless of course, someone is willin' to conjure up a 20 yr note at about 4% interest on one. ???
I have learned lot from the forum, more to look for, etc.
In making an 'educated' decision in short period of time, my old mind is a bit reeling with all the 'figures', etc. But then, what is Life without challenge??
You might shoot a message to Kevjay and see if he is interested in selling his Norwood as he was talking about upgrading to a hydraulic mill. So not to appear confrontational or intimidating I wont mention any brand names of what he is looking at. :-X
DanG, Kirk, you mellowing in your old age? ;D
Michael, been reading up on the decision making process, the longer you look, the worse decision you make, see if there is a used one on the market. The Evans out at Soda sold a Woodmizer L-20 for $5000.00, so they are out there if you look for them.
If you need wood, I got a logger that will haul it to ya (Strange enough, one of the Evans) for a fee, of course, unless i get a cut of the wood!!!!!!!! 8)
I have the Norwood. It is a good mill, and you get a lot of mill for the money. I have the 23HP Briggs, trailer package, log loading package, log handling package and an extra bed extension.
The mill does some things well, and others, not so much. I'll start with the bad first.
First off, you have to assemble it. This can take as much as 40 hours, depending on how handy you are, and the number of accessories you get. Also, it is designed to sit on the ground. The trailer package is fine for moving the mill around, but even though they say you can use it up on the legs, forget about it. The legs are a poor design. So is the log loading package. It consists of some loading ramps and a winch on a pedestal. The ramps are under-designed. I broke them the first time I loaded a large log. I also broke the winch pedestal. Since I don't neet to move the mill, I poured a concrete pad to set it on. I use a tractor with log hooks hanging from the loader to put logs on the mill. That works fine. The log handling package consists of toe boards and rollers that make turning a big log a lot easier. This is a worthwhile option. However, the mechanism (the toe board and rollers are all in one piece that rotates up) is a bit weak, and I succeeded in bending one of the rods that holds the unit.
Having said all of that, I am very happy with the basic mill. I had no trouble assembling it - in fact it was a lot of fun. Except for initial set-up, I have not had to adjust it at all. It cuts straight and true every time. The carriage is easy to raise or lower, and it is also easy to push through the log. I like the fact that the dust discharges to the opposite side of the mill from the operator, but the trade-off is that the blade enters the bark of the log more often. I also got the siding jig, which works very well. I milled all of the siding (and framing lumber) for the house I'm building.
If you go with the Norwood, keep it simple. The basic mill is well-designed, a good value and works well. Some of the options are not as well-designed and are not very robust.
Good luck.
Spokeshave,
About the only options I was considering with the Norwood would be the bed extension and the siding jig.
The rest, I could probably do heavier (and less expensive) myself. I am glad to hear that the siding jig(s) work well. I was a bit concerned about that since they are less $ than most I have seen.
What about that bed extension? In your experience with the machine, is it 'all it can be'?
You mentioned something bout having a gun shop. Are you planning on sawing out gun stocks? Gun stock logs are big...lot of crotch logs. Maximum throat opening is a requirement...some of the mills are lacking in this area.
If I were buying today I would think used...lot of people get a manual mill and find out way to much work. As that Ranger guy pointed out bargains are out there...and lot of time they come with the pricey extras.
Larry,
I'm not planning on cutting out gunstocks. Chances of getting anything of that nature in this area are exceedingly thin. If, by some chance, I were to reasonably come across such a chunk of wood, I'd do some careful whittling on it before I stuck it up on the bed.
Actually, my interest in 'gunstocks' run in a much smaller capacity, as those that fit in one hand. ;) To me, it's ok for handguns to run toward the work of art, but long guns are workhorses. Like my ol' 375, is hineyugly, but it is a consistent tackdriver.
Like has been mentioned above, you might consider a used mill. I was able to upgrade to a mill with a few options that either weren't available on a push type mill. I don't regret doing this and didn't have to take the instant depreciation that happens the minute the mill leaves the factory. The manufacture that made my mill offers training at their factory even if you bought the mill used. They will provide you with a list of owners in your area if you want to talk with a real person not a salesman. :)
I'm not at all opposed to a used mill in excellent working order.
If anyone knows of any or any good resources to readily find used mills, I am certainly open to that.
Oh, yes. Thanks Kirk. I did just that very thing.
For a used mill you could first go to the for sale section here and look. If none are available check out www.sawmillexchange.com I bought my mill there. The owners name is Brian and he is very helpful. Also contact the sawmill manufactures for used mills, they often take trade-ins.
I love this place. Such a large amount of knowledge in a easily gained access point. I have read all the posts and I wish I would have had this information when I bought my mill. I have a Hud-son 28. It is a good manual mill and the cost was low. It does what I want and works well. I can cut 100 BF/Hr depending on the log. It is a manual mill and is a lot of work. Since I've started I can see many upgrades I would like to have. I cut wood with VASawer a month ago and his WM was nice. I can see where hydrolics is very helpfull. If I could upgrade at a reasonable cost, I might, just to get the log turner and hydrolic lift, like I said the manual mill is a lot of work.
My advise is to think of what you want to do with your mill. If you think you will be cutting a lot then the more professional mills with hydrolics should be on your list. If you are only going to be cutting a couple of times a month then a larger manual mill may do the trick depending on how much you have to spend. If you can get a good used mill with all the bells and whisles then I'd go that route. I've looked at the Hud-son 30, nice mill. I think no matter what, you will be happy with whatever mill you get. Good luck.
r/
Andy
If I could hitchhike to the original question.
Would it be better to incorporate before buying any equipment for tax purposes and depreciation?
Or could you decide to incorporate at a later date and then not have any issue bringing into the business previously purchased equipment like a truck, trailer, 4 wheeler, etc.?
Mooseherder,
Just curious...is there some particular reason that you will "incorporate"?
Only reason I can see where one might incorporate (in this particular business arena) would be if there are actually partners involved.
And even then, I would use "incorporate" as only a final option to a more than reasonably perceived problem lurking.
But then, I've been a hardheaded, freedom loving sole proprietor for so long that some have referred to me as different anatomical parts, in a not so delicate manner. Go figure. ;D
(I would sure look odd, if I actually were some of those)
To me, sole proprietorship has the overall greatest advantages. I can already see that the milling business would have basically unlimited expenditures. If I venture off in another area, it is just another division under the same title.
I have pretty well made the "corporate" decision ;) to make a mill decision by the end of the month.
I will be taking that 'trip 75 miles up 59' and visit a bit and look at those machines tomorrow or the next day.
Quote from: tcsmpsi on April 05, 2006, 12:58:28 PM
Mooseherder,
Just curious...is there some particular reason that you will "incorporate"?
Only reason I can see where one might incorporate (in this particular business arena) would be if there are actually partners involved.
And even then, I would use "incorporate" as only a final option to a more than reasonably perceived problem lurking.
But then, I've been a hardheaded, freedom loving sole proprietor for so long that some have referred to me as different anatomical parts, in a not so delicate manner. Go figure. ;D
(I would sure look odd, if I actually were some of those)
To me, sole proprietorship has the overall greatest advantages. I can already see that the milling business would have basically unlimited expenditures. If I venture off in another area, it is just another division under the same title.
I have pretty well made the "corporate" decision ;) to make a mill decision by the end of the month.
I will be taking that 'trip 75 miles up 59' and visit a bit and look at those machines tomorrow or the next day.
to not give legal advice but to merely point out some legal areas that might or might not make sense for some people depending on their situation.
when an individual incorporates it is possible that the liablity shield of a corporation comes into effect. this could vary state by state and ought to be researched for people interested in this but given that sawmilling has a certain level of danger to it that if an injury to a person at a job site were to happen the person that cause dthe injury could be liable for the injury. In some situations, having incorporated then the incorporation could be sued and you personally might be shielded from liablity and so your family might not go broke from having to pay suits against you. your personal assets might be shielded and so you could have a life after an injury. I am not currenly aware of that protection in a sole proprietorship.
Depending on the type of corporation. An LLC comes most quickly to mind is that there are possible tax advantages in being incorporated. in an LLC, it might be possible to use profit and loss pass through from the corporation to your personal taxes to be able to show profits or losses in the best places so that you don't have to pay as much taxes or you might be able to get corporate losses on your personal taxes and get money back from the government.
Also if you have good accountants it is possible to setup structures of corporations that would permit you to set up other business ventures and be able to shift funds through them all and not pay taxes on any of them.
I am not advocating that people incorporate if they don't believe in them. I am just mentioning that there could be a liability shield for people in a dangerous business so that there personal assets might be shielded. this is of course something you would need to research in your own state and discuss with an attorney.
I am also not advocating that you work to avoid paying taxes.
sorry for all the caveats at the end but I am almost done with law school and until licensed I can not dispense legal advice so this post is to not be construed as legal advice just points for consideration.
thanks
Hey tcsmpsi
There are no partners involved, unless you want to count my wife and my dog.
The liability shield does look attractive, you just never know these days.
My main reason would be more for tax purposes with equipment and being able to depreciate if that would be a benefit.
Good luck with that 75 mile trip. I hope you find what you are looking for.
Lawyer Sawyer, What about bringing personal assets/equipment into the new LLC? Is this doable, or does this have to be sold or leased to the new LLC.
mooseherder,
it tends to be state specific and if I answer that it would get to close to dispensing legal advice.
I would think you could but I have to say for the best answer find a local attorney who knows.
the tax questions also are best for good buisness accountants
thanks
LS
Well, mooseherder, there are the classic paper answers to the Corporation Strategy.
Certainly, I am not a CPA, nor a lawyer specializing in business structure.
I have a daughter who is a CPA and works as a forensic accounting consultant, but when we get together, we mostly have much more 'important' stuff to discover (though she does still ask ol dad about certain business application from time to tme).
And, it is true, that as a sole proprietor I have been sued. More than once. And, I have been liened on, by the best and worst of them. Yet, when all the smoke cleared, none of it ever cost me a dime for anyone's fees nor culminated in any judgements. In fact, the only time any of it ever saw a moment inside a courtroom was a weak moment when I hired an, uh, a lawyer. ::)
I know some of this may initially seem 'off subject', but if one is going to do business, the business end of it is eventually going to be, from time to time, the most important factor. But then, that aspect can be just as much fun as that first mixture of sawdust with a crisp spring morning.
My first, and my last, partnership in an established business venture was in 1975.
I am not going to get into the merits/demerits of corporate vs. proprietorship here, but there is certainly more than one educated view of the matter.
What has worked for me, is intentionally being where the buck stops and sole responsibility lies.
Actually, the protections for the sole proprietor are many, but not quite so popularly defined as the corporation. However, not being so popularly defined (and in some cases, being based in 'old law')
, makes them less susceptable to circumvention.
And then, there is the obvious question, "If the corporation is such a reliable structure, then why are so many corporations successfully litigated against?".
Ultimately, everyone has to follow their own inclination.
I, personally, find it much more beneficial to 'carry my own water', and I like to have control and direct hands on anything which concerns my business and carry full responsibility for its application.
There are many ways to protect assets. A good CPA who has worked with small business for many years in your area could be a valuable consultant.
Don't hold yourself short. Just showing that you initially see the business aspect as a factor, shows that you are thinking.
If one does not constrain the playing field of businesses very much, I believe that one can find that, statistically, the milling business does not hold a great risk potential.
just another aside and clarification.
I was not advocating one way or another if a person chose to go into the sawmilling business to definitely incorporate. I think if the opportunity presents itself to me I would probably incorporate. I personally like the benefits within a corporate framework as well as the seperateness of the entity itself from me. But this is a personal choice and there are many ways to approach this issue.
the one thing I would advocate is to find out for sure the situation in your state. This could and often does include seeking advice from an accountant or an attorney or if like michigan you can do some research online about the various business structures. All in all it may cost some money to get some answers from these people just using them in a consulting fashion. but those answers might put you on firmer footing when the business does start going.
I honestly don't know any of the laws protecting sole proprietors. but to answer the question about corporations being litigated against is simple. oftentimes the people running the corporations have failed to maintain the formalities that they themselves put in place and so the courts can find that corporation is a sham and remove the liability protection that it offered. there are many ways to maintain corporate formalities and it is simple but if you are setting a corporation up to abuse it for just the liability protection the courts will see that. If you are setting up because you are trying to use it as the law provides oftentimes the court will honor that and maintain the liability protection.
I don't think having information is ever bad. if it was me and I was going to start a business I would get as much information as possible so I could make an informed decision. the fact that something works for someone doesn't mean that it will work for someone else. that is the fun yet frustrating thing about the law it is always changing.
whatever the choice I hope you can get your business going and that the fun of making sawdust is something you can enjoy for a long time to come.
Tcsmpsi have you narrowed your choices down or still checking out all options?
forget the business stuff I am anxious to hear your choice of sawmills and why you chose it.
best of luck on the choice
Well....I have narrowed down the field...a little bit. I am out the door in a few moments to go visit with a mfr.
I am still awaiting a couple of info packets.
One thing that is imperative (well, maybe 2 things), I Got Wood, I Need Boards. ;D
The GOOD thing is (well, one of the good things), my darling little wife is prodding me along, too.
Let me go see if I can get these folks to convince me of something.
Thank you future counselor...
This has been a very informative thread.. 8)
Now about that capitalization on the beginning of your sentences.. we want to be sure you pass that bar exam.. :D
lawyer,
As you know better than I perhaps, tax avoidance is well settled law and 100% legal. It's the Big E that gets 'em on your hind end. ::)
Also, although it is a more specialized field and can be a mine field, depending on your assets, the use of certain types of Trusts can be the most effective estate planning/asset protection/liability shielding/tax avoidance mechanism available.
But like you, I am more interested in what sawmill he gets.
8) 8) 8)
Big E-?
please explain whatcha mean. :) Evasion I presume?
Hey, WoodWalker, you were right, up there in that north country they build them things pretty good. Except, I walked around with Herman, though we did let Ed pipe in just a skosh, later on.
I got up there early enough that things weren't in full swing yet. They only had one mill complete and ready to go. I did get to see all phases of their construction, components, etc.
I explained that I was looking for a mill to fill my personal needs and to work in a job every now and then for at least a year or two. Talked about all the different aspects and construction of various options/applications.
Of course, all this time, I have all these other mills/mfrs./prices/options running around in my brain, and I'm comparing teat for tat, trying to remember all those things I needed/wanted to ask, going back and forth from this station to that. Kinda, sorta, intentionally acknowledging and seeking acknowledgement from some of the workers.
I got about all the tech information I could readily absorb, and we went and bottom-lined two machines, the LM1 and the LM 15 (we are about to get to the point where we let Ed pipe in). Anyone who is familiar with these machinces, the LM15 has just been upgraded to hydraulic feed and head adjustment, instead of the electric...for the same advertised price.
Oh, did I mention?, that by this time, the playing field had narrowed CONSIDERABLY.
I gave it a lot of thought while we talked about 45's, shooting with mirrors, etc., etc., and ultimately (though both machines were within my reason) decided on the LM1, which is a manual feed, smaller machine.
We let Ed print the receipt for the down payment, while spouting something about Herman thinking he knows it all. ;D
Actually, I got the LM1 with trailer package, 6' extension and a dozen blades for a bit less than $6K.
Why did I choose what I chose?
The LM1 is put together with the same criteria as the larger machines. Their welds, fit and components are outstanding. I'm not looking for high production right off, and I WANT to have a good feel of the workings at first, and during the learning process. They are a manufacturer reasonably close (round trip was about 180 mi.), and, we just saw eye to eye on several things. The LM1 is a heavy machine. From what I can tell, it is as heavy built manual machine as there is out there. Though by the time it came for me to ask, I already knew, but when I get ready to upgrade, they will take it in as trade, sell it for me, or whatever I need.
But, the REAL reason for going to the LM1 rather than the LM15?
The wait on the LM1 is going to be 6 to 8 weeks.
The wait on the LM15 would be 24 to 28 weeks!
The 6 to 8 weeks won't be bad, because that will give me some time (between working my 'day job', working on house additions, regular maintenance, etc.) to get a place whittled out of the woods to set up mill/shed (thereby getting me some more logs).
But, 24 to 28 weeks!....well, I'd be old and grey by then. (no mirrors, please)
Congratulations on your new mill! 8) 8) 8)
Congrats on the new mill!
Looks like you will be making sawdust soon. Sounds like you got some value for your money.
Good Luck.
Congratulations on the new mill. Sounds like a great set up and a good deal. Have fun.
Andy
Tick....Tock.......
Odd, isn't it? My mind knows full well it was told 6 to 8 weeks. And yet, the very same mind considers, "If it were just here now...".
Thank you for the congratulations, all.
When I got in yesterday evening, I had enough daylight left, and I believe I have changed areas as to where I will be setting up.
Somebody has sure got their work cut out for them in getting that cleared.
I am going to need more gas, more diesel, more.... ;D
I got the serial number for my mill yesterday. That is at least some progress. ;D
Though I won't have the mill for a while, yet, I believe I will work on getting some pictures posted of the process of getting ready for its arrival.
I have only mentioned in 'light passing' to 5 or 6 of my more regular customers that I "might be" getting a mill (always like to read the table while looking at my hand), and I already have two stands of oak and a nice rack of red cedars awaiting "if" I do. ;) Seems that two have had not so good experpience with custom sawing, and await with relevant anticipation.
Though not as much anticipation as I.