The Forestry Forum

Poll expires 4-24-06  Are we getting better or worse?

While certainly a good deal of litter can be attributed to "litter bugs", I'm finding the majority of litter around me comes from the wind blowing garbage cans over and blowing containers (mostly milk) out of those shallow recycle boxes. Unintentional litter, but litter still.

 Out where we live, people drive back roads and leave their cans behind. Sometimes you can get $5. on an afternoon walk  ;D.

I said a lot better, but that is in relation to what we had before deposit laws, and the adopt a highway, adopt a road and adopt a forest programs. The Michigan Adopt a Forest Program is directed by our good friend Ada (forum member Stamp).  I'll have to post a note off to her on this because she will have a great insite in how we are doing in Michigan compared to whatever my perception may be. :)

www.cleanforests.org (one of the websites I designed and mantain, and proudl to do so.)

I live on a dead end road and do not put up with any litter.I stop and pick up whatever I don't like.Down on the so called main road,I only clean that up a couple times a year for about a half mile in both directions.Some people seem to think the county turn around is the dump.Tires,fridges,wooden pallets,TVs,and more junk keeps showing up.It's a shame.

Its a LOT better around here than it was years ago.  Fines for littering or dumping trash........along with the 'county boys' working the roads and paying off fines in their orange jumpsuits with a police escort folowing their every move every day has helped a LOT!!!! 

We don't see the heavy dumping like we used to.  Once folks would  dump truck fulls of household garbage, trash or commercial storage room stuff in the woods.  Many of us would take excursions on the weekend to go through it and look for something we could use.   That is mostly gone now.

On the other hand, roadside litter has picked up exponentually.  Why, I dont know.  I think a lot has to do with the move of the Urbanites to the freedom of the woods.  They are used to just dropping their McDonald and Burger King cups, bags and boxes anywhere and somebody will pick them up.  Now they are throwing them out on the side of the road and the only ones with enough time to clean these miles is the county road crews. 

We have adopt-a-mile also, and it helps.  These folks don't have the man power to clean up after the jerks with the gum wrappers, styrofoam cups and cigarette packs though.

  I was going to say better ... but its spring and the snow is melting and you can see that a lot things have fallen out of car windows over winter , bottles , cans ,  fast food wrappers . 
I just cant get myself to trough any thing out the window ... My pick-up is a mess but I do get around to cleaning it once in a while  ;D
 

A couple weeks back a fellow not far from here was out on a walk along the road and saw some bags of garbage along the road.
Thought he'd see if there were any pop cans.
Ended up finding a body. :o :o

Both Minnesota and Wisconsin have always seemed a lot cleaner from litter than the Southern states.  I don't know if it's the "Adopt a higway" program or if most people are more conscience about throwing litter out their car windows.  Still, when the snow melts there is trash in the median and in the ditches to be picked up.  Once it is, it seems to stay pretty clean.

Donna and I took a train trip to Washington D.C.   On our way through Pennsylvania, I saw many places where people dumped appliances over steep dropoffs out of sight from the highway but in view from the railroad.  It really looked pretty bad and there were many places with a lot of old appliances scattered down the slope. I know this happens in every state but I just happened to notice the ones in Pennsylvania because I was awake when traveling through.

Quote from: CHARLIE on April 09, 2006, 11:23:13 PM
Both Minnesota and Wisconsin have always seemed a lot cleaner from litter than the Southern states.  

That is because it is so cold most of the year in those states that no one wants to lower their windows in their vehicles to throw the trash out. ;D

Not so Pigman.  Quite a bit of trash accumulated over the winter and it shows up when the snow melts.  I don't know if it's coming from truck drivers passing through or what, but it's there.

The litter here got pretty bad after the McDonalds was put in.  :-\

But Charlie, ours gets cleaned up as soon as the snow is gone, at least here in Michigan it does.  Actually, and this is certainly not a dig at another state, but an observation I made to Tom when I was in Florida. I could not help but think how littered the road sides were on our route to his saw job. There were areas where it looked like every 2 or 3 feet for a mile had debri on it of some sort. I really think our deposit law has a great deal to do with it, followed by the stiff littering fines and then the clean up programs in place add to a different mind set for most, or at least many Michigan Drivers, at least in the northern counties where I live, about throwing trash out the windows.

I said about the samebut am really starting to reconsidor. Texas used to have the " Don't mess with Texas campain" and it was one of the most effectifve anti litter campaons around. Since it was dropped litter has increased on the road sides and highways. I would like to see us adopt a bottle and can return program here. LeeB

I've ticked a lot better

which it is in the city, it's pretty nice

but out in the sticks its way more bad with fly tipping

started to get worse when they tightened up the rules for the city dump and made it a lot more recyclable but also a lot harder to do

but i think mostly people dont mind messing up some one Else's back yard



iain

Litter here is quite a bit worse than a few years ago. It's not so much the roadside/ditch trash. That's about the same. What the concern is you have folks in rural areas and maybe in town, bringing their washing machines, dryers, fridges, freezers, old tires, junk they collected over the years in their back yard and dumping it on people's private woodlots.  ::) We have no local dumps anymore and only 1 day out of a year when they pick up large items. There are a couple of scrap yards that take stuff, but people still prefer to dump their rubbage on your woodlot when the ulternative is to take it 25 + miles away.  I think some beleive they are charged a levey at these places, and I've never been charged any levey locally. But, I do understand there 'may be' levies at salvage yards near cities.

I said abou the same as well. I took into account the bottle deposit law and the adopt-a- highway program. Both of these have reduced the litter greatly. Our kids love to pick up the cans on the back roads near the farm (each can has a .10 deposit and it adds up when you are a 6 or 8 year old).The fine is stiffer for drinking than littering so there are usually a few beer cans on the road. Very few pop cans.

I think littering could be lowered tremendously if our elected officials really wanted to get it under control. 3 things (there may be more) would make a difference.
1)  Start a strong elementary program to educate the young that littering is bad.  (It has helped bring smoking down and why are their so many "environmentalists"?

2) Enact a bottle tax and a packaging tax.

3) Install cameras along high litter zones to record the license of the perp and then hall them into court and publish their names in the paper.

We still have the bottles and wrappers, but no longer do people dump loads of trash.  Our county seriously enforces the dumping ordinace. If a name is found in the trash the authorities are notified and action taken.

I've given this some thought and my gut feeling is that there are just a lot of selfish, unfeeling and uncaring jerks in this world.  Something that may be able to be changed but not as long as society wears roller skates on a greasy slope.

Where our local governments get their 3rd grade level management ideas is beyond me.  It might work for a teacher to lock everybody up if one person acts up, but it still isn't right.

Here's some examples.  You have to assume the position that there really are tax paying citizens and revenue isn't generated from Government "blue light" sales days.

The elected officials will spend all kinds of money to acquire land for a dump. Spend all kinds of money to man it.  Fine itself for mismanagement. (?)  ....then....   Put a weigh scales at the front door and pay someone to collect fees from those who are dumping their own trash.  It doesn't take many brain cells to realize that charging to dispose of something that a person has no use for anymore will find it on the side of the road.  At  $30 a ton, that fellow just made $30.   Thirty dollars that he can use to pay the taxes next year on the running of the dump, although he probably doesn't think of that.

Even police departments would rather hide an officer in the woods to "catch" someone doing something that would generate revenue than park the Cruiser on the side of the road, in full view, to stop an infraction before it happens.

Deposits are OK, I guess.  It is a real hassle for store owners to keep track of the junk that they have to accept for the state.  I wonder how much of the deposit goes into other funds as another tax at the expense of who.

Somewhere we've lost track of the purpose of taxes.  It seems that too many think that Government is a business.  It isn't.   I'll bet that those who pay deposits on bottles also pay taxes on road clean-up.  Those who walk in State and Federal forests who pay $5.00 a day for the privilege, also pay income taxes and property taxes that support the parks.  Having to pay for places that we already own is mystifying.

I despise trash on the road.  It's ugly.  It's a result of the selfishness of those who live in squalor and the  idiocy of those who think of themselves as "blue blood" who are "above" having to wipe their own after parts.  Neither of these segments of the population are intimidated by fines, deposits or taxes......only work.  Put the son of a guns to work cleaning up the side of the road instead of a free meal in the county jail and they'll think twice before they throw that fast-food container or empty cigarette pack out of the window.  Make'em carry water buckets to workers on a forest fire and they'll think twice before they throw their lit  cigarette butt out of the window and start another fire too.

If our only answer to society's problems is to levy more taxes and fines, then it's  high time that a Government Bureaucracy be created to dispose of those Taxes and Fines that aren't working.  Seems right to me.

I mentioned the littering on private woodlots, but it also happens on crownlands. It happens quite frequently during the hunting season where Joe Blow takes a pickup load of junk out to the woods with him and drives down and abandoned forest harvest road and deposits his trash over the side of a hill or right on the road if it's over grown. Some people do/did it for spite against the authorities that closed the dumps. We have a $0.10 deposit on bottles and containers and only a $0.05 return, I know the majority won't return those bottles because it costs more in gas to take them to the redemption centre when it's not on their route to work. We do have community recycling centres for paper and plastics, but they don't take the deposit items. Some folks will give them to the kids during their bottle drives. We started out with having to sort the trash but that didn't last 3 months, don't know the problem, because I think if it wasn't sorted they left it by the curb. It may have been too overwhelming for the guys picking it up and trying to keep it separate on the load. Who knows. I don't see those garbage truck guys till about 5 or 6 in the evening. I think they have a long route or maybe they take several loads per day up to the landfill which is about 80 miles from here. Sometimes there is a guy coming along in a panel truck as well as another guy with a garbage truck. I bet she's a long day.

The sorting has met with a disgruntled population here because of the attitude of the people who run the trucks.   So  many things are not allowed that it becomes an effort in futility to satisfy the rules and most are not willing to spend the time.

The trail of the trucks can be followed quite easily by the litter trail they leave. Things they find in the little basket that they deem don't belong are thrown angrily aside and will litter a goodly portion of a persons property.  The Citizenry, deciding that they don't work for the government, has found it much less work to just throw everything in the garbage.  I'm sure the recycle truck drivers are OK with it because they can just drive by 90% of their route.

I've said it before.  Governments and their bureaucracies develop a mindset that the people are here for their benefit.  These programs will never work when administered heavy-handedly with threats of incarceration or other punitive actions.

The "meth lab" litter is getting to be more and more of a problem and concern on forest lands.

Last friday I found someones fenced in area on a woodlot, where someone was growing thier crop one past summer. I always find them fenced in with chicken wire. Do the rabbits and deer eat that stuff?

The pharmacies here have to put the cold meds with meth derivatives behind the counter now.

I've got to start thinking before reacting or I might get shot or stabbed someday.  It's not just trashy people that litter but people who just plain don't care and are thoughtless enough that they probably don't consider that what they throw down, someone else has to pick up.

Once, Donna and I followed an elderly couple out of a restaurant. They got into their car and the woman, rolled down her window and tossed out a gum wrapper.  I hurridly went over, picked it up and handed it back to her and said, "I think you accidently dropped this on the ground."  She was speechless.  Another time I was walking behind a man that was probably in his late twenties. He took his last swig of a Mountain Dew and dropped the can in the parking lot.  I stooped down, picked it up and caught up to him. I handed him the can and said, "Excuse me sir, you dropped this back there and I'm sure you meant to put it in that trash can over there."  The thing about that was, he was going into a store that had a trashcan by the door, yet he chose to litter.  Another time I was getting gasoline at a convenience store when I saw a car load of High School age girls parked in front of the building. One came out of the store with a carton of cigarettes and they were all laughing and talking loud. I was headed for the store to pay for the gas when the girl riding shotgun rolled down her window and threw an empty cigarette pack onto the ground.  I walked over, picked it up and said to her, "I see you accidently dropped this empty cigarette pack on the ground. I'll put it in the trashcan for you."   They all went silent and I heard one say, "He's really putting it in the trashcan!"  I do hope I embarrassed that girl enough that she'll think the next time.

Some people are just plain slobs.   ::)

Right on charlie.  Isnt there a law into affect over the garbage in a persons car.  Over the fact a guy had a bottle go under the gas pedal go under the break and he killed a couple in a car?  I think its easy just have a small garbage sack.   And get rid of it when filling up the gas and too check the oil.   I am amazed by the people around here that go into the hills and dump off there garbage forcing others too clean up the mess in fear of it being boldered off by the county.  All done by mostly city folk that come out here too shoot guns and run there jacked up trucks.  Its funny around here usually on the main roads going out too the reservation.  Is where the garbage on the side of the roads begin.   And also that is where the white crosses begin too.  Quite sad too go fishing and too see people just drop there nets in the river and forget about them.  Just makes me sick of it.  One friend one mine cut a net over seeing a bunch of dead salmon in a net and got a 5000 fine.  After he got caught.   Instead he did community service.   Total bull pucky I think.

As Harold can tell you - our farms look like parks - and not trashy ones. Want to see me get mad? Let me show up and find litter.  >:( No excuse for the stuff. Hector feels the same way.

It is one of my "Leading Indicators" if a person is worth hiring. If they think that the world is a trash can - well - I don't need them. They won't put up tools, they won't fix a fence without being told, they are just plain lazy.

I honestly don't get it. I have bought homes and hauled away a dumpster of trash - more than once. Of course, they got a lot less for the house because they trashed it.

I used to live near a watershed lake. Very beautiful (Canadice Lake in NY if you want to know). But sometimes while walking the path around it, I would see where someone had left junk from fishing. I just wanted to catch someone so I could ask them what in the world goes through a mind to trash a beautiful, clean place. I just don't get it.

We have those fishing slobs around here as well. I always made it a point if I went bank fishing, to pick up anyone elses worm containers and litter that was there before me and take it away along with mine. Its not only the right thing to do, it keeps the person that passes you on the trail on your way out from thinking you were the pond scum sucker.

 I AM AFRAID OUR LITTER BUG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET WORSE BECAUSE TIRE PRICES AT THE DUMP WILL BE GOING UP 75 CENTS IT DOES NOT SOUND A LOT BUT IT WILLL ADD UP. IT WAS $ 1.25 UP TO $ 2.00 JUST FOR CAR AND LIGHT PICK UP. MORE FOR BIIGER TIRES

Now see?  That's what I mean.  Why are they charging you to dump tires.  Tires are being recycled and the recycling companies will even pay you a little for them if the government would let them.

American Tire Recycling here in Jacksonville can't accept tires from the public, even if you wanted to give them to the company.  Why?  The State requires that a  fee be charged and turned into the state whether the tire is turned in at the tire store where you buy your new tires or at the recycling plant.  I'm not sure how much it is now, but, I think it is $3.00.

The responsible party for collecting the fee (tax)is the the recipient.  That means that the company would have to have someone to receive the tires, someone to receive the tax, someone to keep the books, someone to fill out the papers, someone to protect the cash or get it to the bank and worry about being fined if they didn't do all of this on the State's schedule.  Since the money comes from the person turning in the tire, guess where the tire ends up?

My neighbor pulled 13 out of his driveway ditch last year.  His driveway, like mine, is a long one that goes back in the woods to his house.  The ditch was formed to get dirt for the road.  Someone discovered a place to unload them unseen one night about  1/2 way down his drive.

The recycling truck?   Well they send out a truck to pick up tires now and again, usually after several neighbors call that tires have been on the road for three or four weeks.  You are allowed to set out 2 at a time.  They must be dismounted with no tubes.  After the county picks them up you can set out 2 more.  They will pick them up too, sometime.

Where do these Tires go?  Not the recycling company, as far as we can figure.  If they do, then the county is not paying the disposal fee and the company is having to buy the tires.

Now, if the State wanted the tires to be recycled and to stop the dumping, why don't they make it palatable for the citizen to dispose of the tire?

They collect the fee here on the purchase of a new one and we can take old tires to any local garage for free. I did find an old set of tires dropped off in the woods up the road last fall. I don't know why, there's no drop off fee. Some people are just slobs.

I guess I just don't understand the government charging a fee.

I don't either Tom, except what fee they collect sure don't pay for recycling, but it is suppose to go toward the cost as we have an Environmantal Trust Fund. Lots of different fees go into it. If the government didn't subsidize recycling in some manner, it wouldn't happen. From what I've seen reported on it, it's not profitable. They even built a soil recycling plant here before the company had secured contracts. I beleive it went bust or is waivoring and the locals that live near it have protested it's existance because the soil is all (or mostly) from out of province, alot of it was to come from the US. I don't see how it would pay to ship that stuff up from NJ to recycle. Hair brained schemes.  ::)

Quote from: Ron Scott on April 10, 2006, 05:31:22 PM
The "meth lab" litter is getting to be more and more of a problem and concern on forest lands.

This is one of the primary reasons that whenever I head out to the forest, I have my 45 and cell phone on my hip, CB in the truck, shotgun behind the seat in the truck, GPS on the dash, and a plan.
I tell people exactly where I am going, when I am leaving, when I anticipate returning, a time delay between that and the time that they are supposed to call the sheriff's department to come find me.
I call on the way out, and I call when I arrive at home.
We have meth labs all over the place, or so it seems.
I have found 3 in the past year, all located in old abandoned mines where I am cutting, and I find them becuase they really stink.
That's what the GPS is for - I forward the location to a friend on the DEA (One of the bennies of being DHS), who goes and busts the lab shortly thereafter.
What that stuff does to people is beyond horrible.
Lives and families destroyed...communities ravaged....
Sorry. I'll get of my soapbox now.

Perhaps the government needs to make it open season on meth labs. Provide a bounty or something for everyone turned in. Bet that would clean em out quick!

My personal opinion is that the cost of disposal of something should be in the price at purchase. For example, if it costs 2.00 per tire to dispose of it correctly - you pay that when you buy it. That way, no one is arguing about who has to pay to get rid of it.

Packaging on products should also be included - if my screws and such come in a plastic container that has to be dealt with, instead of just giving them to me in a paper sack - tack on the price.

This way, the money will be there to recyle the resource - you don't have to make the money on recycling to get back the resource.

Otherwise I end up paying for someone elses purchases. It may be cheap to make - but it may be expensive to get rid off - there are a lot of chemicals in this category.

I just want the user to pay for what they are using, not having my tax dollars pay for disposing for other people's stuff.

Now, if I could get someone besides the government to run it... we might actually have something.

It's a matter of attitude. One time I was coming out of a restaurant just as a teen aged kid was smashing a glass bottle on the sidewalk. I was on him in a flash. I said, "that was stupid, now lets clean this mess up". Another kid with him says "yeah Jeremy. That was stupid". But we all got down on our knees and picked up glass in silence. I have always hoped this was an attitude adjustment for these kids but who knows.

Pick up trucks are an apparent problem. I am careful with mine and I still see something blowing out the back once in a blue moon. Some people are so stupid. Notice the sofa cushions, lawn chairs, coolers and all of that other stuff that was missing when the idiot arrived at his destination.

A few weeks ago, I was supposed to fly to DC for a meeting. Bad weather put me in Philly and it was faster to take a train than wait for a plane. The train was surprisingly nice. The view out the window was the most disgusting I have ever seen in the US. I am mortified to think that tourist to the USA might be riding that train. I don't know the answer but shoot to kill comes to mind. Some places the garbage is piled almost as high as the fence along the track.

Our state charges $5 per tire and they can be dropped off at any tire store.  Last year, a conservation group cleaned up part of a creek.  They pulled out 82 tires.  They clean the creek every year.

I like the idea of paying up front.  The state has made it illegal to put tires in the dump.  My understanding is that they manage to make their way up to the top, so they don't stay buried.  I think part of the reason for making them illegal is that PA manages to import more garbage than any other state.  Its not our choice, the feds made us do it.   >:(

We also have guys with huge piles of tires.  With the West Nile virus being around and all that stagnant water that tires collect, the state has been hot on these guys.  They will clean up the site and put a lien on the property.  That's where some of those funds go to.

I have a big beef with those supermarket plastic bags.  They seem to be everywhere, except for in the dump.  I have heard that in Europe, they don't use those plastic bags or provide any bags.  When you go to the store, you better bring your own cloth bags or you have to carry it home.  I wonder if that would work here?

My father-in-law was an avid fisherman.  He was always amazed that someone could carry in cans that were full of beer, but were too weak to carry out the empty cans.   :D

As far as the grocery bags, I prefer the paper ones the grocery gives you in Maine. Here in NB it's plastic, no choice. Although, I understand the thickness of the plastic bag is about a 3rd it was 25 years ago. Those plastic bags are the most aukward thing to carry groceries in, nothing round stays in them, always rolling out and off the seat and on the floor. sigh......... who's brain wave was it to use them anyway? I hate plastic and don't microwave me any food touching plastic of any kind.

There are taxes on alcohol, tobacco, casinos etc.  Put a $.25 tax on every plastic bag. You could avoid this tax by bringing your own bags.  I think there should be a packaging tax based on the weight of the packaging material.  A BIG TAX.  Manufacturers would quickly change the amount of worthless packaging that they use.  Bang, bang, bang,  that is the sound of my head bouncing off the wall.

My property has about 3/4 mile of road frontage, all wooded. and it's about the only location on this road that is not in view of a house. So I seem to get the majority of the stuff that gets thrown out. The last couple of years we take a spring saturday to pick up the stuff. first time we did it we had more than a pickup load of stuff. Not near as much now, but more than there should be.

My summer place has a double whammy against it, but mostly just wintertime.  ::)

First I own a small peninsula between two busy lakes, since the lakes are joined by a relatively narrow stretch of water the current that results means there is very rarely ever enough ice to safely support snowmobile traffic. In fact there have been more than a dozen drownings there over the years from people trying (unsuccesfully) to cross the gap. As a result, we carved a portage trail across our land to allow the snowmobilers to safely bypass the dangerous area. This was part of the problem.

Secondly the cottage is the end of a long dead end road, so anybody coming down the road gets dumped into my yard.

The problem is, between the road dumping sledders out onto my place, and the portage, which is a natural 'choke point' for traffic. If they feel like stopping for a bite of food, a beverage or three, or even to build a fire to warm up and take a break, they do it in the sheltered little bay in front of my place.

To make matters worse, they leave the trash on the ice.

Every spring I have a great assortment of trash on the bottom of the bay, everything from spark plugs to beer cans & bottles, both broken and not!!

One year I even found a helmet! How do you drive away and forget your helmet???  ::)

"One year I even found a helmet! How do you drive away and forget your helmet???  "

Do you think all those beer cans had anything to do with it?   :D :D

Yup, more'n likely.  ::)

I was there one weekend when they pulled 4 bodies and 5 sleds out of the narrows. When the police diver asked about the 5th sled, a relative of one of the victims said "Oh yeah, that was his from last weekend. He was showing the others where he went through."

When they brought one body up there were still 3 full beers in his pockets. smiley_alcoholic_01

More areas are being closed off to recreation because of littering and destruction of the soil cover. That puts a lot more pressure on the remaining ones.
I stopped at a reservoir to fish and found a mallard drake tangled in discarded fishing line. I carefully cut the line away, the poor bird was too weak to fight. I have no idea if it survived. I really get upset when I see pull tabs and fishing line left lying around. >:(

"Tread Lightly" seems to be an unknown term to some.  ::)

While we do have some problems in this regard, I would still rather have a small area (10' x 500') of my land chewed up by carbides and tracks than have to fish bodies out of the lake.

The ones that annoy me are the ATV'ers who feel that since they have "go anywhere" vehicles, that it's Ok to 'go anywhere'. I've even had more of the 'back lands' behind my cottage chewed up by ignoramuses on 4 wheelers than think about. At least they generally don't leave trash behind though.

I found out who one of the culprits was though, a neighbour, he figured if I wasn't there he was free to use my land. I discovered this when I showed up with friends, in their truck, he even had the nerve to stop my buddy and tell him off for driving so fast in the driveway (about 2 miles long) because his kids were riding up ahead. He nearly swallowed his tongue when I put down the (tinted) back window and said hello.

;D

Reminds me when I was out for a ride with mother on the farm and this moose hunter we stopped and talked to said he had permission to ride his 4x4 pickup on the farm. He had a nice beat down path up two full rows of potatoes by then. Mother said, that's funny I own this land and you never came to me to ask anything. And no one said you could ruin our potato crop.   >:( The next few sentences I don't dare repeat. :D :D Once one idiot makes their own path/road through your crop the whole hurd follows.  ::)

I have done a lot of camping out of canoes. often times 'traditional' trips get going on the same part of the same river at the same time of year each year. one time, 'my' group met another group who turned out to be mostly Pennsylvania State Police. One year, they ended up camping in a spot 'round the bend and down stream from us. That evening, we heard a lot of shooting. just figured the cops were enjoying some target practice. Next morning we packed and floated down stream and the cops were gone but we were shocked to find the crystal clear stream full of shell casings and beer cans shot full of hole. I said the other day that there are good people everywhere you look but this memory reminds me that there are some stupid people where you wouldn't expect to find stupidity.

On our crown reserve waters we have federal wardens responsible for monitoring the salmon angling. And why I mention crown reserved waters is the fact that these rivers are most commonly chose for river camping because of their remoteness. Wardens are often camoflaged and hidden along the bank of the river , or sometimes they float silently along side your canoe to check your license and crown waters fishing permit and length of the salmon you kept. I'm sure if those guys where shooting cans out over the river with wardens near by they would not get a very welcome greeting from the wardens. ;)