The Forestry Forum

Poll expires 5/24/06

This isn't a poll of what your opinion you actually have, although you can put it out if you like.  This is to see if new facts or theories change your outlook. 

The earth is covered with geologic evidence of catastrophic events. I can only hope some of my DNA is still around to witness the last sunset.  ???

I recently learned that some of our particulate pollution is helping to cool the atmosphere - if we clean up our air we will hasten the warming  :o

I remember back in the 70's we were facing an ice age. My how things change.

Man is an insignificant blib in the line of time. There are many forces within the universe that we know about that can change our destiny and certainly millions that we wont know about until they do. Anyone that thinks that man has the final say in shaping our ultimate future has got thier ears on to tight. There is a higher power that can step in anytime and say

BOOGITY BOOGITY! I GOTCH YER NOSE!  pinkie_invert

I agree, Jeff.  I checked "Somewhat", but maybe I should check "Changed a lot" because I've changed my mind about it a lot of times.  Maybe I'm wishy-washy, or maybe I don't have enough scientific background to form a solid opinion. ::)

I don't know how much affect we are having on the "global warming" problem, but I think we can and do affect the "global dimming" situation.  Whether the warming trend is a result of Man's activities or not, I think the efforts being made to slow the damage are a good thing.  However, in light of the latest evidence, putting some relatively benign particulate pollution in the air, such as wood smoke, might just buy us some time until things get sorted out a little better.

I truly hope Global Warming is because of us - I know it might sound strange, but honestly, in business, I am always hoping that a problem is ours - not someone elses.

After all, I can change us.

If Global Warming is because of us - we can change and make things better. It might be hard and painful, but it is doable. BUT, if it is just a cycle... Hang on to your hats my friends, it is going to get ugly and all you can do it ride it out.

Like Sprucegum I too saw something ( maybe on Nova ? ) about global dimming reducing the effect of global warming. Apparently some climatologists ( spelled that right ??? ) noticed in the USA that the sky got blue again when planes were grounded for several days after 9/11/01. When they followed up they discovered that we're blocking the sun and they say global warming would be much worse if it weren't for the effect of this newly discovered global dimming.

I find the older I get the more strange things there are out there to understand.

Global Dimming = the ability of politicians to get stupider every year?  ???

CR
Sorry to hear that is happening in CR. :)

Now, now - it is a global condition... It isn't localized.

To be honest, I'm not sure  what my opinion is. Like Jeff, I think this whole planet and universe is bigger that all of us and we are all part of a bigger plan.  As for us humans, I look at it this way. The scientists are all smarter than me, and they don't agree with each other on global warming. One day you read a news story that says it exists and we are killing the planet, the next day some other "expert" says the opposite.  Until they all agree with each other, I'm not going to believe either side.

Stumpy,

That is the strategy. I hate to say this, but we are going through the same issue that there was with Tobacco.  There are people on BOTH sides who are paid by opposing views. If you want examples, I will get them - in Global Warming

The way to sort it out is to search on the organization and their names - often the other side will expose their sources of funding. A quick example, the group that is promoting that Global Warming isn't a bad thing because it causes increased growth of plants is funded by producers of coal and Exxon Mobil.

There is a huge amount of money at stake on this - just like with cancer and tobacco.

Understand - scientist are just as corruptable as everyone else - if not worse at times since they have to have grants to keep working. Follow the money and you can figure out when someone is telling the truth.

If you are going to wait until all the scientist agree - well, it might be too late, as it was for some people with tobacco.

Too bad some people have no conscience - which is some of the "for hire" scientist.

The unfortunate thing about these types of "arguments" is that the multitudes are uneducated in the subject and have no business being a part of it other than as a spectator.  Everyone may have an opinion, but it can't be stated as fact. 

We should leave the fact finding to those who study and work in the field.  Credentials should be provided before a thesis of fact is presented.  Theory should be labeled as theory, every time.

You don't go to a plumber to get a diagnosis on skin disease.
You're better off seeing a sawyer than an iron worker about getting a board .
You're better off talking to a nurseryman than a banker about growing a tree .

We are all specifically educated in fields that we have chosen.  It's common knowledge that you get better results when diagnosed by a professional.

There are dentists who do plastic surgery. That's really rolling the dice when it comes to a successful result.

Unfortunately, the Environmental "movement" has attracted uneducated barnstormers who live on the adrenalin produced by confrontation and attention.  These are folks who get in the way of true scientific research.  Their proliferation has made it almost impossible to determine the validity of a study.  While all parties may have agendas, it's the legitimate scientist who creates the viable theories, whether he is employed by one political organization or the other.

It is better, when it comes to these kinds of arguments that the majority of us shut up and listen.  Eventually, enough of the educated ones will agree enough that we can see which side our opinion should lie.

I agree Tom,

One interesting thing though - I find some of the best information I read comes from computer people who are just trying to model this.

I did this kind of stuff for years - you really have to know the subject to write software to model it.

The ranting by some of the Environmental types is rash - and I wish the business side wouldn't muddle the water with bad research - or self-serving.

Giving the fact that the oil companies are admiting there is a problem - I am getting scared. Perhaps they saw what happened to the tobbaco companies.

A lot of this isn't that hard to understand - but you have to do a lot of work.

I agree with Tom too.
That is why I am not going to offer my 'expert' opinion on the subject, and just 'vote'.   ;D

When the "experts" can predict the weather 24 hours ahead of time and get it right, then I might start listening to their predictions. Until then, I can not give them much credence as to what will happen in the next 100 years.  ::)

Yes, I can understand what you mean.  I have the same problem with the general population trying to declare Armeggedon and make judgement on those who have dedicated their fortunes, education and professional lives to the studies.

When one's field of expertise is in another area, it makes you wonder who to believe.

Patty - it is really simple to predict the weather here.

Starting in about 2 to 3 weeks - it will start raining an hour or so every day for the next 8 months, then it will be dry again.

See - even I can do that!

I was not going to offer my opinion on this topic, but after reading Tom's post I just can't resist. ;D   I am an expert on only one thing and that one thing is my opinion. My expert opinion is the the weather is constantly changing and I do not know what is causing these changes. ???

Well, the poll isn't really about global warming, since I'm not asking for your outlook.  The poll is more about how you form your opinions.  Do they come from your feelings about an issue, or from facts on the issue?  Do you form an opinion and keep that opinion or can something change it?  Does the change come from facts you gather or from different feelings about the facts?

From the results so far, it seems that most voters have made a position and nothing can sway them.  Does that come from forming an opinion and then disregarding everything else about it?  That may be from forming an opinion on feelings, then look for facts to back up the feelings. 

I could have picked a wide variety of subjects.  I picked global warming because there is always new data coming out that sheds new light on the subject.  I think I know what the mindset is about the subject with members of the forum.  If you're mind is made up, that data doesn't mean anything, and you would just disregard it.  If you're always gathering data, then things start to change as the data changes. 

Sure, I could have asked straight out how you form your opinions, but that probably would have tainted the results.  Everyone would check that they are open minded.

Something to kick about.

Very good points, Ron.  It is very hard to keep an open mind some times.  A good discussion based on factual information is an exhilirating and educational experience.  A discussion based on ignorance and emotion is just frustrating.

I notice how much cooler it is in the shade. I notice how hot it is in the asphalt jungle. I notice how the shade is disappearing very fast.

  Bulldozing many acres for homes and then planting bushes is not gonna help. We need common sense to be re-born.

QuoteFrom the results so far, it seems that most voters have made a position and nothing can sway them.

I don't see where anyone can interpret that conclusion from this poll. Expressing ones 'feelings' and how we have formed our opinions over time could not be adequately expressed in the choices listed in the poll. My feelings have been expressed in the several responses, however.  :)

We've had several polls on global warming in the past.  The positions then were pretty one sided.  I am assuming that since most voters haven't switched positions, that they are staying the course.  It may be unscientific, but so's the poll.   ;)

The poll doesn't ask how you formed your position, just how your position has changed.

I'm a liberal that believes in management of resources, but I also stand for owning guns and handguns.

I think its global warming is happening based on weather that I see locally and on coral reef die offs. But I don't preach my stance or try to change other peoples opinions. I figure if we're changing the environment and we can see the effects then its already too late.

On changing one's opinions I'd like to think that when presented with facts we can learn enough that even our opinion can change.

For global warming I started thinking that climate cycles swing both ways and we're just on a swing one way or the other. Then I noted that we ( the world )  burn 80 million barrels ( or is it gallons - I can never remember. The mind is such a sad thing to lose ) of fuel per day and figured that sooner or later that would have an effect on air - like adding alcohol to the blood stream - sooner or later you feel it  ;D  . Next I read that the glaciers are melting in Greenland - so what - well turns out they  say  that so much cold fresh water came off Greenland that it diverted the Gulf Stream to the south - so what do you think happened in Europe - England gets snow storms instead of rain and there's huge blizzards collapsing roofs in Germany. They say the glaciers melted because of global warming and I'm pretty sure glaciers don't just melt on their own.

So without becoming an alarmist I have a new opinion - maybe we should pursue a policy that shows what I'm hearing as an energy neutral effect. Like if you harvest corn ( ethanol ) or algae ( biodiesel ) you remove CO2 from the air and put it back when you burn it which then grows corn and algae again and again and again . . . 

Maybe some "new" data/facts will come out and I'll have to change my thinking - like sometimes having no money changes my choices . . .   :(   

( Lately I've even begun to worry that the globally dimming politicians are serving someone other than me - fancy that ! )

- Modat22 : I can't start to think about guns now as Phila is going through another campaign to blame the gun not the people tirade even though they were offered help prosecuting gun violators - which they shot down last year rather then seriously stopping criminals. I guess next they'll blame pens,pencils,typewriters and computers for lies - better outlaw them now before it gets worse.

No change in opinion for me ;D  Yep it is reality :o  Could be natural change or man made, either way we should get off fossil fuel slow and steady not to hurt the economy too much, but get off the DanG stuff ;)

Burn wood 8)  $500 a cord prices so we can make some money like them oil companies maken record profits  :-X >:( :D
Max
(Ya I should stay out of the general forum, I get in trouble here ::))

I hear that a volcano erupted this week spewing thousands of tons of ash into the air.  Maybe it will be a tad cooler this year.