I tried to saw my first log today and dissaster struck. I have a tomberwolf mill with a Kubota 950 diesel engine. While I was making my second cut the head stoped moving and the engine died. I thought maybe I was going to fast. I started it back up and tried again. As soon as I started cutting again the engine died again. There was either steam or smoke comming out of a petcock on the lower left side of the front of the engine. The radiator is now either low or empty. It was full when I started it up and there is no sign of a leak. This is my first experience with both sawing and diesel engines. I am not having any fun yet. Anyone have any ideas.
FLHTC
Firstly find out where the fluids are going.
I had a horror story with my 38 horse kubota when I first bought my mill. As it turned out it had a mould fault (crack)and there was lubricating oil getting into the coolant. The problem was that the kubota distributor didn't want to stand behind the engine. I thought I was in real trouble Baker, the manufacturer of the mill talked to the distributor in Mo. and couldn't get anything done and wasn't really wanting to get anymore envolved in the problem. If I had not had a determined Kubota industrial dealer on my side here at home, I would have had to go to court for any help.
Find a Kubota Industrial Engine Dealer and try to get him on your side and do it before there are any hours put on the machine. If your experiece turns out like mine, you are in for a real ride.
I don't mean to scare you but you need to be hardnosed about this. These folks at Kubota are not the customer oriented people that the general public thinks they are. I wrote a letter to their USA Distributor in Cal. and never got a response. I wrote two more after the problem was resolved saying good things about the dealer and telling them I wasn't happy with the way Kubota acted. I've never gotten an answer to any of the three nor the Distributor in SE Florida.
My engine was replaced (the distributor didn't want to) and I hope it last the rest of my life. If it doesn't I'll be knocking on Caterpillar's door for a small engine. I heard somewhere that Cat bought Perkins and that engine is there small line now. If that is true they have a good little engine.
Tom,
I should have mentioned it before but I bought a used mill. It ran great before I bought it. I hope the problem is just my inexperience. The worst part of it is the dealer I bought it from is 700 miles away.
hope that you started with an empty radiator and nothing is hurt. I'd call that dealer pretty quick but I'd still find a kubota industrial engine dealer. If there are no hours on the machine there should be some recourse through your mill dealer.
Check your crank case oil for water
I just had another thought. with all that cold weather everybody is having, do you think you might have popped a freeze plug?
Tom
I checked the antifreeze before the real cold spell hit. It was good to 40 below and it was full.
I can't think of anyplace the coolant can go but to the outside through radiator leak, popped freeze plug or cracked water jacket/block; to the inside through cracked block( to the crank case or a cylinder or a leaky gasket that would do the same. Not being a diesel mechanic I don't want to lead you wrong or scare you. It would have me worried too.
If the crank case hasn't got water in the oil, I would feel a lot better. Did you check you dipstick for that. It would show "over-full" even if you can't detect water. Water generally makes the oil white.
Tom,
I will check the oil for water in the morning. I agree with you the water had to go somewhere and there is no sign of it on the outside of the engine. I am hoping for the best.
flhtc,
Was the steaming petcock on the block or radiator? Is it to drain the radiator or block? For steam to be coming from it, wouldn't it have to be open or partially open? If that's the case, that's where your coolant went. It probably got bumped open or almost open during the move. You could possibly have started with a full radiator and empty block if the coolant had dripped out of a loose petcock. For an engine to stop from being too hot, I doubt it would start right up again. It would also smell hot. Some industrial engines are made to shut down when the temp is too hot, oil pressure low etc. Hope things look better in the morning.
Good luck,
Noble
FLHTC
I can't help but wonder why something was coming out of the petcock? Assuming it opens into the water jacket then it must have been opened. If this is the case then I would suspect possible vandalism, perhaps someone drained your coolant?
If the coolant went into the engine then your oil level will be high. Coolant will burn if it gets in the combustion chamber but not in that short of time. If most of your coolant was going into a cylinder you would have a hydraulic lock and most likely punched a rod out through the side when you tried to start it. I doubt if the oil went into the crankcase either because the small sump capacity would likely overflow if all the coolant went inside. Oil analysis will confirm the presence of coolant in the oil, if you want to send some I will run the test for free. Send me an instant message and I'll give you the address.
I know it's too late to tell you this now, and I hate to even mention it because it's like adding insult to injury, but it is good advice given to me by an instructor many years ago. It has saved my butt on several occasions: "NEVER EVER start a diesel without first checking the coolant and the oil level".
Good Luck
Mark
PS - I've seen some pretty hot engines that were not damaged at all. There is a good chance you didn't hurt anything.
Standard procedure on all our loaders, EVERY MORNING. We have had coolent stolen from the loaders when antifreeze prices were around 7 bucks a a gallon up here a few years back. 2 loaders drained during the night. We have also had the screens punched in the deisel fill spouts so they could pump out fuel.
That one was kinda funny. They stole fuel out of the loaders that night but never touched the above ground tank outside. We had forgotten to lock it and left the pump plugged in. They could have filled up what ever and never had to come in the building.
Anyway we do check every morning cause no matter how you "think" you left it the night before it may not be.
Noble,
The petcock is on the block.
I hope Noble is right and it might have just got bumped open.
I'll concur with the previous posts, and add a little. Another possibility is a bad head gasket. This can allow coolent into the oil passages (on some engines), which would be seen by high oil level and/or milky oil. It can also pressurize the coolent system by venting combustion gasses, which would increase the flow from any leak in the system. A diesel mechanic would have a gauge to attach to the radiator fill cap to check, or you can crack the cap to relieve pressure in the system, tighten it back down and run the engine for a minute or so, then crack the cap again to see if there is already pressure built up. Please be sure to do this on cool engine so you don't get a hot water bath.
If there are no obvious leaks, the oil is clear and at the right level, then make sure the coolent is full and run the engine and look for leaks etc. Honestly, I think Nobles idea about the loose petcock sounds the most likely.
The point about checking water and oil on a diesel engine can't be made strong enough. It's standard practice for us and we have still lost engines due to low coolent.
I just found out yesterday afternoon that a D-8 that I need Monday was leaking and very low on coolent. The machanics found that the bottom of the radiator was damp indicating a bad gasket or core. Also the above mentioned test indicated a bad head gasket. We hauled it in last night, I'll be lucky to see it by Wedneday.
I feel your pain........... :(
Eggsander is right about a possible head gasket problem. An easy check is to just leave the cap off (cold engine), start it up, and watch for bubbles. If there is compression getting into the coolant you will see bubbles, and lot of them. It is normal to see an occasional bubble, especially after adding coolant, but I'm talking lots of bubbles.
I still think the open petcock is your problem.
Mark
There is no water in the oil. The water did leak out the petcock. I filled it back up with antifreeze but can not get it started again. I don't think it got hot enough to ruin the engine. The high today is going to be around 40 so that might help.
That's a big relief. Funny how up tight a fellow can get over someone else's mill problem. I'd-a thought it was mine. :D
flthc
Does it crank ok, that is at normal speed? If so that's a good sign. What oil are you using in it?
Mark
Assuming that it does crank normal (which might be a little hard to tell in real cold weather) and still doesn't fire, you might want to make sure it's getting fuel. I mentioned some engines having shut-down devices for low fluids etc. On desil engines, this is done by cutting off the fuel. When restarting you have to use the same procedure as if it ran out of fuel. Check your manuel to see if you have a safety cut out switch and if so check the reccomended procedure for restarting.
Noble
What a bummer to have that happen on your very first log! >:(
DonT let it discourage you. This is one of those things you can look back on, and laugh. Of course, that moment may be a ways down the road. :-/ There is some satisfaction to be had in conquering these little challenges that life presents.
Mike,
It turns at normal speed, at least it did. The battery is starting to run down now.
Noble,
I hope you are correct. Unfortunatley I do not have a manual it is a used mill and the dealer did not have one, I planned on getting one from Kubota I just didn't expect to need it so soon.
I guess the only good thing is that if have to keep asking for help I will be getting another tree soon. I really appreciate all the help and encouragemnet from everyone.
I checked the fuel filter, it was very dirty. There was about a half inch of sediment in the bottom of the filter housing. I replaced the filter but it still won't start. I cracked one of the fuel lines and cranked the motor, no fuel came out, so it appears that no fuel to the engine is my problem. I now have to figure out what to do next.
You might have to fill the fuel filter by hand and bleed it until fuel runs out of the top. There is a bleed screw on the injector pump. loosen it and get fuel to flow from it as well. then go to the lines at the injectors and loosen them.
Crack the fuel line at the injectors and use the manual pump next to the injector pump to fill the lines. Or.......hook a good battery or battery charger to the engine and use the starter to crank the engine over until the fuel lines are purged of air. Tighten the lines and see if it will crank.
Air pressure on the fuel tank will help force fuel through the fuel lines and save a lot of priming with the pump.
Don't run your starter more that 2 minutes at a time then give it time to cool.
On some of those diesels you have to bleed the fuel line after you replace the filter. If that is the case on your motor it will never start until you get the air out of the fuel line between the filter and the pump.
Next question does it have glo-plugs for cold weather starting or maybe a plug in block heater? If it has glo-plugs you may have to turn the key one way or another for 10-15 seconds to heat em up then hit the starter.
Good luck.
Larry
Tom you beat me to it -- must be my 1 finger typing.
Going from a poor memory I don't think there is a manual pump on those. But if there is it will probably be a little flipper type thing that you work with your finger. Wish somebody would join in here that has one of those Kubota motors.
Larry
Yes it does have a pump. When I started pumping I saw a lot of dirt and air in the line. I unhooked the line and pumped fuel through it until I got rid of all the dirt. I then hooked the line back up and pumped until I did not see any air bubbles. I then flipped on the glow plugs for about 15 seconds and it started fairly easily. It runs but does not have enough power to cut. Could it be that the fuel injectors are dirty and not allowing enough fuel through or is the engine damaged. As soon as I pull the hydralic lever to raise the head the engine starts to bog down, enough so that even at full throttle the blade stops spinning. It has a centrafugal clutch. I am leaning towards poor fuel delivery but do not know what to do next. But last night I didn't know where to start but with help from you guys I have learned a lot today. i would have rather been sawing. I still need to learn how to do that.
Making progress at least. Now it sounds like you have water in your fuel tank. I would drain the tank and refill with #1 diesel since it is cold. An alternative would be #2 with an additive called Power Service. If that fails I would guess dirty injectors but I am far from an expert.
Larry
flhtc (that's a funny name, what were you parents thinking? ;) )
It's not unusual to pump out some dirty fuel with the primer because they don't get used very often and sediment will collect. Also I would expect to see some water and sediment in your sediment bowl. Does it have a separate water separator and could it be that what you changed it instead of the main filter? There could still be a fuel filter in the system.
Also you should have a drain valve on the tank to drain water and sediment, open it and see what comes out (this should be done every couple of days). If the tank hasn't been drained recently you could have re-plugged your new filter. When changing filters I don't recommend pre-filling them with fuel for the simple reason that most people dump fuel into the center opening in the filter. This is the filtered side of the filter and so unfiltered fuel gets a free ride into fuel pump. If you insist on filling the filter, get a little funnel and fill the outer holes. I've seen more than one fuel system damaged this way in my 20 years working at the Cat dealership. I also know it sometimes takes a long time to pump the filter fuel so I understand why people do this. Trust me that unfiltered fuel is very dirty even if it looks clean.
A couple of other questions: did it seam to have plenty of power before it quit? If so is it colder outside now than then? If so you could be dealing with gelled fuel due to low temperature. You might want to start over with fresh fuel after draining the tank.
Send some close-up pictures of this engine if you can. I don't know what it looks like.
Good luck
Mark
Larry you beat me to the fuel drain, last night Nobel beat me to the open petcock. I am just too slow typing my responses :)
It's good there are so many people willing to help this fella. That's one of the things I like about this group!
Mark M
Larry
My wife said from the start that I had water in the fuel so that was the last thing I wanted it to be. I hate it when she's right about mechanical stuff. It happens a little too often. I guess its easy when your standing back watching someone else get frustrated. I'll try draining the fuel in the morning. It was fourty degrees today so I should have just gotten the Harley out and went for a ride instead of fighting with the mill. It never breaks down.
flhtc
Mark
My parents thought gee this kid may not be pretty but he sure will look good on a Harley. I ride an Elactra Glide classic (flhtc). Just in case you were wondering its never been on a trailer.
flhtc
Hey I used to have one of those, an 1980 FLH with a side car. It was a tan and cream Classic. We added the side car when we had our first baby. Then 2, 3, 4 - whooa! not enough room anymore. I sure wish I had it back. :'(
There could be algea growing in the tank as well. If it is old fuel it may pay to drain it all and clean the whole system.
Good luck.
I agree with everybody 8) 8) Just want to reiterate the part about using a deisel fuel additive like Power Service or FPPF. They will not only keep your fuel from jelling, it will seperate the water and sediment out of the fuel. Everything I have is diesel except my mill :D :D You can find an additive at a truck stop. Good Luck Dan
Not having power could still be air in the fuel line. Air is death on diesels. you have to get rid of all of it. While it is running crack the lines open at the injector, one at a time, until they run pure fuel, not bubbles. If air is the problem you'll know immediately upon tightening the line back up. There have been times when I've spent an hour trying to purge my lines in the field after running out of fuel.
Tom beat me to the air problem. I would bet that that is what it is if the engine ran normal before. Be careful about opening lines as the fuel is under extreme pressure. A pin hole leak can cause severe cuts or inject fuel into you with very serious results. The air will eventually work it's way out of the system but I don't know if this can cause damage. We usually carefully open the line at the injectors. You can check injectors the same way------like pulling a plug wire on a gas engine to see which cylinder is missing.
flhtc, bet you sleep better tonight than you did last night. I thought of you all day and was anxious to see what you found.
Noble
Good point on the injectors, I hadn't thought of bleeding them, it's been a long time since I worked on an engine with external injectors and I forgot all about 'em. If you are getting gray smoke cracking a line can help track down which hole it is coming from. Sometimes it's hard to hear a miss but looking for smoke will help.
After thinking about everything that has been said I am beginning to think the fuel problem may have been the main culprit all along. If there is a lot of sediment in the system it probably sloshed around when the saw was moved, ultimately getting into the filter and plugging it up. This could be the reason it quit in the first place and not due to overheating. If it was overheating enough to make it quit then the engine would smell and feel hot. I recently burnt up the engine on my Honda generator. I was doing a twice-a-year check and started it up in the garage. It seemed louder than normal but I figured this was because I was inside. I plugged in my little compressor to give it a load and it just stopped instantly. When I went to restart it the engine wouldn't turn over. What we found is the throttle has stuck open (hence the louder noise) and it was oversped which lead to a seized rod bearing. There was no doubt that it had overheated, I just couldn't figure out why. Now I have a tachometer wired to it so I can make sure that doesn't happen again. I'm going to put one on my sawmill engine too.
Speaking of water and sediment, we deal with these kinds of problems pretty often in the lab. There are some simple things you can do to help reduce problems. When possible refill your bulk tank late in the day and preferable right before a weekend. This way all the crud that gets stirred up will have a chance to settle over the weekend or at least overnight. Drain the sediment out of the tank first chance you get. When refilling your equipment, do it at the end of the day so it gets to settle overnight too. If you don't when it cools down moist air will be drawn into the system leading to condensation. If the tank is full this won't happen. Drain the water and sediment every couple of days, diesel fuel really picks up water – it is a fact of life. If you have water you have a good chance of having fuel bacteria/fungi (sometimes called algae). These organisms require water to live and exist where the fuel and water meet. They have a filamentous grow (mycelia) that extends up into the fuel, which plugs filters. The fuel biocide kills the microbes but the mycelia still plug up the filters until it is removed. If anyone is interested in diesel fuel I put together a presentation for our customers at http://www.butler-machinery.com/Fuel/FUEL%20PRESENT_files/frame.htm
Mark
Running but low power sounds like air in the fuel system, or restricted fuel flow. Check filters and tank screen if you have one, are you using blended fuel (diesel can gell at low temps). When bleeding air from fuel system on small diesels, finish the bleeding process right at the injecters. While the engine is running crack each fuel line at your injecters one at a time to release any traped air. Small diesels are very unforgiving to even the slightist amount of air in the system. What model engine do you have?
To all
I'll try bleeding the air out of the lnes in the morning. It ran better the longer I let it run so hopefully air is the problem. I am a lot lass worried than I was last night so I bet I do sleep better.
flhtc
I would go for bleeding at the injecters but WATCH OUT this can hert you in a hart beat. It can cut you open, inject fuel in your finger, put your eye out ect. the fuel pressure (rail pressure) at the injecter side of the pump is very very high!!
Now what I did not see hear is about air leaks. You changed the filter and you could have a air leak letting air IN the systom as it is running. This is some what comman if you reinstaled the same filter and gasket, sucks air in but no fuel leaking out. Also you should have 2 filters in the fuel line, first is a water filter with a petcock on the bottom then the true fuel filter but thay are sometimes both bilt into one can. I would change them both with new filters ASAP and keep new ones on hand.
Now for jelling. #2 is rated down to 0f if it's dry (no water) and #1 down to -30f but you will use about 30% more #1 fuel to do the same work as #2, I can feel the power drop in my Cummins p/u every year when I switch to #1 for the winter. The Cummins also go's from 28 to 30 MPG on #2 to 16 to 23 MPG on #1 fuel. This is why truckers used to blend fuel, now thay just run fuel heaters in big trucks called an "arctic fox" so thay can run #2 in very cold weather.
GOOD LUCK
Andy
If the thing ran better as time went on I would be nearly certain it is related to air. my case dozer is like that if I am not careful when changing filters. hope you can sort this out and slice some boards.
One additional item to check is the fuel flow from the tank to the filter and or pump. I have had a couple of experiences with obstructions in fuel lines causing poor performance. If the engine is not getting enough fuel for whatever reason it will possibly run at an idle but when a load is applied it can't get enough fuel to run properly. I had a new tractor that had moth sacks (the little brown fuzzy things) in the tank from the factory and caused a lot of grief until we finally discovered the problem.
From what you have said it sounds like a fuel problem of one sort or another.
Good luck!
Dewey
To all,
Could not get the mill to start this morning. The battery is a little low from yesterday. It is 14 degrees here today with a cold north wind. I am going to charge the battery today and probably won't work on the mill. Just too cld for me. I fired up this smoker put on some ribs, turkey breast, chicken and ham, threw a log on the fire and am getting ready for the super bowl. The temp is supposed to be better the rest of the week so I took a vacation day for Thursday and will start again then. Thanks for all the help I will keep you posted.
flhtc
WAY TO GO BUCKS!!! 8) 8)
FLHTC,
I had a similar problem when I bought my used skid steer, it has a water separater and then filter, I cleaned the mud out of the separater, replaced the filter and then ran the battery down trying to get it going again. After a day of messing with it I called New Holland and they went through the bleeding procedure with me. I now have the owners and service manuals. I Highly reccomend purchasing the manuals.
BTW, I am the proud owner of an 03' FLHRI Road King.
Wish it was warm enough to ride it.
Wekend_Sawyer,
I wanted an 03 model but opted for the sawmill instead. If the mill ran I'd have the best of both worlds. I didn't have to work at my second job today so I rushed home to work on the mill. I had my wife crank the motor over while I bled a little air out of the fuel lines at the injectors It started up but still does not have any power. When I try to bleed the line for the front injector the motor dies. When I bleed the line for the back injector I can not tell any difference in the way it runs. I would guess that means I only have one cylinder firing. The engine is a Kubota ZB950-NB. I am going to a Kubota dealer on Thursday to order manuals and if need be I'll see if they can bleed the lines for me. There isn't a water seperator on the engine that I can see.
flhtc
As much as I like the "do-it yerselfer" I think you just posted the best idea. Get professional help the first time and pay attention. Try to start with fresh clean fuel. A fuel filter- water seperater is a must on diesels. Get one with the bleeder on the bottom. We have them on the boat for the outboards. Wouldn't be without 'em. Good luck.
Flhtc you didn't say if you had fuel flow from the lines you opened at the injecters ( the ones that didn't seem to make a difference). If you had good fuel flow with no air and there was no difference in the way it ran when you opened it, you probably have a dirty or bad injecter. If you have good fuel flow at some lines and not others, you could still have air in the system or are getting air into the system. Then again you could have a rack problem.
I took my mill to a local implement dealer this morning. We could not get it to start. All the mechanics were buisy so the owner said if I didn't mind helping he would work on it himself. After bleeding all the lines and having no luck he pulled the fuel filter took a wif of the diesel fuel and decided that was the problem. I drained the old fuel out, went and got some new stuff, filled her up and bled the lines. It took a while but she fired up. It only ran for a couple seconds when the motor really came to life. The fuel was the problem all along. I wished now I would have listened to everyone and changed it out a week ago but I didn't want to go throught the hassle of bleeding the lines again. I brought th emill home set it up and started sawing logs. I only had a couple free hours but I got one small cherry log cut into grade lumber and one large elm cut into pallet material. Now I'm having fun. Thanks to everyone for their help and patience.
Glad you got it going. That was a fun challenge for all of us. Welcome to sawmilling. That kind of thing happens to all of us, the neophytes and experienced as well. It's great to have someone to bounce ideas off of, isn't it? :)
Tom,
I can not tell you how frustrated I was when the problems started. I had orders to fill and just knew the engine was terminal. With everyones help I at least got it running. I knew then that the motor wasn't ruined it was just a mater of getting fuel delivery problem solved. That alone made it possible to sleep at night. I would have bet money I had a bad fuel injector. It cost less than 50 dolars to get it fixed. Even though it is only rated at 18 horsepower the diesel cuts better than any 25 horse gas engine I have seen.
flhtc
Sawmilling is fun, isn't it, flhtc. 8) 8) 8) Some days are diamonds and some days are stones. Sometimes, I too, have whole truckloads of Columbia River Basalt. :'( ;D I am happy you are now making sawdust. 8)
flhtc, WHERES THE PICTURES!!