just wondering what your guys opinions would be on this situation on my hands....i had cleared about 5 acres of cottonwood ranging from 10 inch to 48 in dbh on the family farm and was just getting ready to push up the trees and put a match to them...then, a long time friend came by and asked if he could have some to build a windbreak fence and a few extra to cover expenses as his cousin will mill these for him. I told him no problem, just clean up any mess you leave....a week or two goes by and he hauls about 6 loads out with his 36 tri axle trailer , about 12 ton each....i had a suspicion that something was up but didnt say anything....well yesterday I go to the farm and find a semi truck from a pallet company there being loaded....let them take the load and give the company a call...I come to find out after being given the run around and being told that these trees arent my trees that they are giving this guy about $500 to $1000 a load...well, i lose it and call this guy and tell him to pull out immediately....I hate losing a friend but i feel like i was being taken advantage of...If he would have just offered a couple hundred a load that would have been fine, take all you want... but to lie to me is just pissing me off....but at the same time he is saying well you were just gonna burn them....am i wrong for being upset
So the semi from the pallet company was on your family farm?
Your friend also hauled some with his rig?
yeah, about 6 or so with his rig and then on with the pallet company truck
Well he did say that he wanted some to make up for the cost of milling.
Unless you can prove he sold all of those logs, I don't think he did anything wrong.
Even if you can prove he sold all the logs, I don't think he was wrong as you did give them to him.
Would have been real nice if he had talked to about selling them first though.
Probably more to this than what we know on this end, but from your statement, I don't see where you should be losing a friend over it. You were going to burn them, but he saw more potential than that. If he doin the work cleaning up as you requested, seems he covered his end of the agreement. If ya hadn't gotten po'd with him, seems like he could have then been a better friend. Maybe he was caught tryin to do a bigger job cleaning up than he first expected (often happens) and had to find someone to help (another truck and all).
If you finish the job yourself now, will you saw them yourself? Will you finish cleaning up what is left, now that you've kicked your friend off the place?
I don't blame you for being upset, but don't see it's worth losin a friend over. To you it was trash,, to your friend it had potential. Maybe that potential grew after he made the initial deal with you.
yeah, i know what you are saying about the potential of the deal, he initially just wanted enough to build his windbreak fence and cover his expenses. At no time did he ever start pushing up the limbs that werent useable into a pile to burn. Yeah, I can prove that he sold most of those logs as the pallet company told us that he had brought 4 loads in, not including the semi that took one load. Ya know, yeah i did give these logs to him to build this fence and cover his expenses...I just feel like i was trying to help a buddy out, did so, and then while helping him out he was making money off the trees i owned and feeled...at no time did he offer me any cut of the money even thought i feeled the trees
I don't understand it completely, but if there was deception involved I can't stand being decieved.
But if he just ask if he could have them and you were going to put the match to them, I can't see why you would be upset at your friends' resourcefulness.
alright, i guess it amounts to this for me, if you give a friend in need something that he said that he needed and then it turned out that he sold it for profit, how would you feel
Quote from: stu_307 on January 14, 2007, 01:51:37 AM
. .. . . . if you give a friend in need something that he said that he needed and then it turned out that he sold it for profit, how would you feel
I would feel like i helped him meet his need. I hope you aren't just bitter that you didn't think of selling it to the pallet company. You keep forgetting you were going to torch it. Sounds like you were a blessing to your friend, who by your own words is in need.
I say feel good about it for helping him.
Being a blessing to someone is getting a blessing in itself.
kevjay, i mean by helping a friend in need, i mean in need of lumber that his family can mill with their saw mill, not helping out somebody that is in "needy".... he has a great job and makes more than me. I was just trying to help him out with this...did he ever mention that a pallet company would send out a truck that he would make $3,000 a day off my timber(as they, the pallet company, admitted they would probalby get $500 to $1000 off one load it they could get 3 to 4 loads a day) i guess that him making this money wasnt the problem, but that he never told me that this is what he was doing with the majority of it....This is why i feel deceived since he told me all he wanted was enough for a fence and a to cover his expenses....never did clean up what was left like i asked....even if he would have been honest and told me up front what he was up to i would have minded but i feel like he was trying to get over on me... the rest...no intrest in milling it and will probably be burned....
last post i meant that i wouldnt have mind if he would have been upfront with me
It seems like you found out about this and cut him off in the middle of things.
Is there any chance if you hadn't said anything he would have come over after they finished hauling everything away and cleaned up like he had agreed to?
Any chance he may have come over after he got a check from the mill and offered you some?
Sure sounds like you may have jumped the gun a bit and it does sound like you are a bit bitter over the $.
Sorry if that isn't what you wanted to hear.
Yeah furby, i did find out about this in the middle of things, probably no such luck in him cleaning up or offering a check... i figure that if he wasnt upfront about what he was doing little luck that that he would offer a check after....if i was about the money furby, would i burn what was left?
Out of spite.... maybe.
I can't say that I wouldn't have reacted just as you did, but I also realize that things change and we can't always do things exactly as we say we can.
not to mention furby, like i said in my first post, his family was doing the milling
I'm on your side stu.I would of told you I can make some money with those trees.Got people involved and said glad I could help you.Just the way I am.I like to be able to sleep at night.I realize you was just going to burn them,but we are not always aware of the markets out there for a product.If I would of had to cut some trees up into log lenght,I would of asked to split the money.
Stu,
I agree with you. The trees are yours to burn if you want to. You offered the guy a little to be nice. He knew what he was doing, he was taking advantage of you. An honest man would have come out and told you what he had going on and offered you some money. A dishonest man would take all he could get and hope he did not get caught. Obviously, he is not honest and is not fit to be trusted. A "friend" who cannot be trusted is no friend at all. A bit blunt? Perhaps, but that's just the way things are.
IMHO,
Jim
Just my thoughts, I would step back for a moment and think of what kinda of friend he was historicaly. Maybe if communication was reestablished yall could air it out, real friendships are hard to come by. I hate to be taken advantage of as well, and its sounds like you were, but just in case I wouldnt want to throw out a friendship without giving a second thought.
It kind of sounds like this was badly handled all the way around. Perhaps in the beginning your friend intended to just get a few, then saw a potential and couldn't stand to see the rest wasted. He should have then talked to you about it. Whether or not he intended it , it makes it look like he was trying to go behind your back.
Do you think it would have been better to go see this man and talk to him about what was going on, rather than calling and kicking him off? Maybe temper got in the way of good judgement? That happens. Remember, he is doing the work, and bearing the expense of getting them out. Also, getting the logs out ought to make stacking and burning the tops easier for you. Judging from markets around here, I find it hard to believe he is making much money hauling cottonwood. I have a friend who was upset one time that his dad wasn't getting paid by a logger cutting huge overgrown fence rows. The logger was cleaning the fencerows for whatever he could get from them. I thought they were lucky he didn't charge them for the work. ::)
8) 8)you gave the man your word he could have them like mom used to say you made your bed now lay in it just a thought :D
Hi Stu, In my humble opinion, if this guy was such a great friend, he would have come to you and said, hey I found a way we can market this stuff instead of burning it. momma also said to have a friend be a friend. I wouldnt lose sleep over this guy.
I got mixed thoughts but keep coming back to my upbringing ( don't tell no one I'm Catholic ). Well when we were youngin's we were told there's two way's to lie. The first was by changing the facts.
The second was by leaving some important piece out.
Sounds to me like maybe he shoulda included you with his business plan. I'd give you some wood to heat your place with - but iffen you wanted to sell it in town I'd have a much different interpretation of what's going on . . .
Course not being there I might be missing some important or critical fact ???
Just my two cents.
Those with knowledge can easily take advantage of those that do not have that knowledge. It is done in business all the time. Loggers come by and offer x for those trees. The logger knows their worth, the owner may not.
But, the difference is we are talking friends here. The definition of a friend is that you help the other guy and don't expect anything in return unless stipulated up front. Stu, you were being friendly in your offer. Your "friend" is in no way a friend. A true friend would say, " I think those trees have value, and you might look into selling them". Give so and so a call and see. True friends do not take advantage of each other. Friendship can not be a one way street and survive long.
Stu, you got taken advantage of. I would be ticked off. Just because I didn't think they had value, does not mean it is morally right for someone else to take advantage of me because they know something I don't.
I agree with the Cedarman (and others); this fellow is no friend. When it's all said and done, what does anyone have left except his/her character? He mis-represented his intentions. The few hundred (or few thousand) dollars are worth more to him than your friendship. Scratch'im off your list and move on.
That was clear abuse of your friendship in my opinion. And to let the truck come onto your farm to pickup was just plain greedy. Send him a bill for the wood he sold and see if he ponies up. I've had to write off a couple friends in the past and after several years have transpired I have to say it was for the best. Joe
I agree with Jimbuis.
After he got started then saw the potential of $$$, he should have come to you. You offered him some logs for his personal use. You did not agree for him to bring in a commercial rig to grab all they could get.
Nobody mentioned any possible liability damages of a commercial truck working on your property unannounced. If something had gone terribly wrong and someone had gotten seriously hurt - remember what industry we are involved in - who would have been left writing the check?
Looks like I'm a little late but I think you were taken advantage of with half-truths. He told you only as much as he needed to tell you to take advantage of good heart helping a friend.
I've had it happen to me.
A man came to my house and ask me for cherry and oak boards. He was in the Navy and had a quadriplegic son. The boy is brilliant and he was trying to train him in trades that he felt he could do. To make ends meet he was making flag boxes for the flags used at military funerals. He had other children lots of bills.
I told him I would sell him the wood at sawing costs to make the boxes if it would help. He loaded his trailer and I sold it to hem at 10 cents a board foot.
Two weeks later he called me on the phone and asked for more. It leaked out of his conversation that he had "sold" all of the other. It seems he had found cabinet makers who would buy all he could get and he wanted more.
Well, not for a dime a foot!!!! by golly!!! He acted like I was a mean old man, charging him for the lumber.
I saw his house about a year later. He was living in a huge upscale house in an upscale neighborhood on a 3 acre lot where others had 1/4 acre and more modest homes. I wonder how many people he took advantage of with his cock and bull story before me.
Another customer of mine, I found out later, had been taken advantage of by this guy and had let him use his shop and tools. Many of the tools never made it back home and his planer was almost worn out before he realized that the lumber was being planed and sold to a lumber outlet, not being used.
Half truths are as good as out and out lying. You are well within your rights for being miffed. You were deceived.
Quote from: kevjay on January 14, 2007, 01:45:38 AM
I don't understand it completely, but if there was deception involved I can't stand being decieved.
I premised my opinion from the start and it's pretty clear to me now having re-read stu's tale, NOT at nearly 1:00 a.m. I think we are all on the same page here. There was deception involved and friends or not, deception is never acceptable, even in an everyday business transaction wit a non-friend.
Tom, sounds like your man probably didn't even HAVE a quadriplegic son or do you know? Not that it would matter of course he is nothing more than a con either way.
When you get money involved in a friendship things go bad. The right thing to do on his part was to say, "hey, if you're gonna burn that stuff, do ya care if I can make a deal and sell 'em"? You cover your time, fuel and saw maint. stuff and get the mess cleaned up and get a few $$ in return, he makes a few $$ for being a opportunistic business person. It's the deception thing that makes me >:( >:( >:(. I'd be mad at him for a while and decide if he is a friend worth keeping. Call him up in a few months and explain the situation and make sure he knows that deception will NOT be tolerated if he wants to remain in your good graces.
I know this all too well first hand.
Flip
It's all about being straight up and forthright. I expect my friends to have my best interest at heart the same as I have theirs. If I help a friend make money by giving advice, then I havn't lost any money. I've been in deals where someone pointed out I could make money if only I did "whatever". Most of the time, I just say, well if you can make a million dollars off of it, go ahead, I don't have time to fool with it. But, my friend gave me options based on good knowledge. So we stay good friends. I want my friends to give me good council on all types of things. Having people that you can trust is such a good feeling. Good friends bring happiness, money can only bring pleasure. Pleasure is short term, happiness lasts a long time.
If a person only has one or true really good friends they are lucky. Too many people only have friendly acquantances.
I have waxed philosophic long enough. Time to wane on out of here.
You know, the more I read about this the more I stew about it. It just DanG sucks to be lied to there aint no two ways about it but we just have to live and learn when to recognize the con men out there.
Real friends are ones that you can trust. I do not blame you for getting mad. Personally I would have run that truck out of there without the load. Let him count that as a good will gesture you made letting him have that last load.
Farmerdoug
8)this thought just came to mind i heard it somewhere if a person burns you once shame on him if he burns you twice shame on you alittle off subject but good advise anyway :D :D
thanks for all the responses, its much appreciated....I was talking to my step dad about this a couple of nights ago and this is what he told me...Well, when you die son, you will probably be able to count your true friends on with all the fingers on your hands. The more I think about it, the more true it gets.