Someone I know is installing 300+ sf of Brazilian Cherry (Jatoba) flooring bought at a big box store. The insert said it was 'Made in China'.
What's wrong with this picture? How many miles shipping is that?
yup.. I believe it.
Strangly enough though, when logs are exported from NZ it's trucking the logs the 50 or so miles to the port thats the main cost. Once they are on a ship they might go anyplace around the Pacific. Once they are on a ship (or in a container) a few thousand miles. The loading / unloading / paperwork cost is the same whether they go 50 miles or 5,000.
I think a lot of the construction pine sold around Califonia is shipped from NZ. ::)
It does make you wonder why it's not more efficient to make flooring out of local wood though. ???
Cheers
Ian
"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
When you have enough money, or, image is important and, in your minds eye, is derived from owning something different or with an exotic name, having something from a different country makes you sophisticated.
We see it right here in the south when marketing tells consumers that "southern hardwoods are no good".
Quote from: Tom on January 24, 2007, 03:46:26 PM
"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I think that's what drives a huge chunk of internet sales.
Quote from: Tom on January 24, 2007, 03:46:26 PM
We see it right here in the south when marketing tells consumers that "southern hardwoods are no good".
I don't know about your hardwoods, but I'd kill for some of that nice pine sliced into wide planks for some floors here need redone.
I just missed out on some old sinkers they pulled out of a lake near my summer place, 100+ year old white pines, most 36+" and 12' - 16' long, been down with da fish ever since they was cut. :-\
Quote from: Tom on January 24, 2007, 03:46:26 PM
We see it right here in the south when marketing tells consumers that "southern hardwoods are no good".
I work with a fellow that had cabinets custom made from PA cherry. He said the cabinet maker went to PA to pick out the lumber himself, because southern cherry was not any good :o. I think it is funny to look on 'other sites' at the lumber wanted ads. So many are wanting cherry or red oak, etc. (large volumes too) and the purchasers are located in the North ::). I often wonder if the PA lumber dealer might have sold the cabinet maker some cherry that came from GA ???
So, it was cut somewhere in Jatoba's native range in Central/South America, shipped to China and finished into flooring, shipped to North America then trucked across country to end up here. How does putting China in the loop save money?
I prefer local/regional. It also seems fine to import when trees are scarce/nonexistent. I will even agree to imported exotics so long as their qualities are unique, but this case is out of hand. Somewhere the global powers-that-be decided that this was a smart use of our natural/energy resources. The retail price does not include the energy that was wasted and the 3rd-party (innocent?) ignorant unknowingly pay the price for these decisions.
Thanks for letting me. vent smiley_smelly_skunk
brdmkr said:
QuoteI often wonder if the PA lumber dealer might have sold the cabinet maker some cherry that came from GA
:D
Might be that the ship is sitting just off-shore, loading the logs, processing them into kiln dry flooring, and unloading the product on our shores (heard once that the Japanese had many such ships at sea, just processing logs into products, be it plywood, lumber, particleboard, flooring, furniture, etc. Maybe the chinese do too.).
Well let's see...take my walnut logs and cants to American Walnut up the road bout 15 miles and they turn the raw product into some of the finest flooring made. Or I can take the same walnut logs and cants to Missouri Walnut and get a little more money. Those logs and cants find there way to China and return here as flooring. Sell for bout the same amount.
Only been going on with walnut for 20 years??? China took the trade away from Japan.
I laugh all the way to the bank when I ship my no good southern basswood into the prime basswood states along our northern border. But I know my Missouri walnut is 10 times better than that rotten stuff coming out of the deep south. :D :D :D :D
Shipping to China is not all that high. There are enough boats coming and going now that you can practically ride a bike across the ocean to China. Although you can't haul alot of freight on a bike.
Hey Larry i know what you mean about the walnut. I posted some poics of some real ugly Texas Walnut one time. Everyone said it was some of the ugliuest Walnut they had seen. Wish my puter had not crashed I lost all the pics.
QuoteMight be that the ship is sitting just off-shore, loading the logs, processing them into kiln dry flooring, and unloading the product on our shores (heard once that the Japanese had many such ships at sea, just processing logs into products, be it plywood, lumber, particleboard, flooring, furniture, etc. Maybe the chinese do too.).
I agree with THIS statement 1000%. I heard this several years ago, and, saw some photos, where they had logs AND lumber stacked on board. Problem is, that is DEPLETING the RAINFOREST, lumber. Not like what I get here. This is where Fred is waaay ahead of the game, here.
I got plans too.
The China part of the world economy is easier to understand when you understand that China has free labor to run its economy. This is the primary reason China will not release its "political prisoners", "prisoners of religious persecution", and many other categories of innocent people who have been imprisoned. Without the millions of people in prison working in their rehabilitation factories, they will lose their economic advantage.
Jim
We sell logs to Germany, Italy and China. They are paying more than the locals, so that's where it goes. Chinese may export to us as furniture.
Don't get too hyped up about the "free" Chinese labor. How long has China been pursuing the one child policy? 20 years? What happens when their labor force drops dramatically due to these lower birth rates? Their labor costs will rise. Their competition is India, where we are now outsourcing our service industry.
Where I live are a lot of Amish families. Good people, fine neighbors, hard workers, I like and respect them.
One of my english [thats non- amish] friends told me a funny story about going to an *english* farm auction. There was an Amish man there with his horses and wagon sitting on the road selling Amish chickens.
My friend said "He sold them all, everyone likes those good Amish chickens.
Funny thing is I was at a different auction yesterday and that same Amish man was there BUYING chickens. Heck, I bet those chickens had only been Amish for about a day!"
Heh heh...... could be similar with lumber................... :)
When I was growing up in the 70's, the Northeast was feeling the pain of industries closing and moving to the south. "Labor, land and energy are cheaper" was the corporate mantra. Now the same thing is happening everywhere in the U.S., jobs are leaving for foreign lands as corporations chant the same mantra. Many of the early loses where to Japan, but now Japan feels the pinch as it all shifts to China and India. Some day, they too will be the losers as another shift occurs. Like Sonny and Cher said, "and the beat goes on."
After China and India it's all going to go to the new moon colonies.
Those first moon pilgrims will be so excited to have won a seat in the worldwide lottery for seats on those first moonshots that they aren't going to stop and consider what a tight spot they have gotten themselves into.
Of all the peoples in history they are going to be exploited by those who supply their necessities.
For the first time in history labor rates will be both out of this world AND dirt cheap.
> 300+ sf of Brazilian Cherry (Jatoba)
So ... how does one check the bonafides of it really being B.Cherry vs. cherry stained pine, if you know what I mean :-D Could it be from Peru or is it cherry at all?
> How does putting China in the loop save money?
$0.50 an hour or not paying for the labor at all in prison camps.
Plus, lax enviromental rules, though if you process it on the high seas and dump everything overboard you pollute nothing other then the place where we get something like 85% of our O2 to breathe in the top 2" of the water. Or something like that.
;)
I am not buying into the concept of high seas flooring processors. I am sure we would have heard about these before now. If somebody has a link to one then bring it out. I would like to read more about it if it does exist. I do know that China is paying top dollar for our Pacific Red Alder in the NW and shipping it back and making cabinet parts for our consumption. There is still a lot of labor and expense in the process. How does it make sense.
My solution would be to send our labor unions over there and force them to organize the workers and pay a decent wage or else we slap huge tariffs across the board on all imports. In that way they could at least afford to buy some of our manufactured goods and we would become more competitive.
Does that make sense? Joe
Quote from: logwalker on January 24, 2007, 08:57:41 PM
My solution would be to send our labor unions over there and force them to organize the workers and pay a decent wage or else we slap huge tariffs across the board on all imports. In that way they could at least afford to buy some of our manufactured goods and we would become more competitive.
Does that make sense? Joe
Tell us how our labor unions are going to go to China and organize the workers with the Chinese form of government. While you are at it tell us how these tariffs are going to work in a global market.
Does your post make sense?
In an dream world it might.
In the real world, it does not.
Quote from: logwalker on January 24, 2007, 08:57:41 PM
Ior else we slap huge tariffs across the board on all imports.
China is carrying most of the paper on our $4+ trillion dollar debt. No one in government has the nads to rock the boat for fear of the banker calling in their loan.
You gotta love this forum! ;)
I am saying that the reason we lost our manufacturing base in the first place was because our labor force got so powerful that they priced themselves out of the world market with wages and benefits.
Now granted the politburo bosses aren't going to let the unions happen. But what would happen if we formed a Pan-American block much as they did in Europe and stopped this idiotic trade policy we have with Asia. In reality you can't even call it trade. That would imply that it was both directions which it isn't.
And do you really think they would call the loan on the largest economy in the world. I don't. The truth is they probably can't. The 4 trillion $ debt, to use your figures, are in the form of Govt. Bonds. You don't just call those instruments when you get P.O.ed at someone. They have terms of months to years. When they did come due just print the money and give it to them. See how they like that!
And doesn't China have a huge stake in this too. You don't take the loss of you're biggest trading partner without suffering setbacks.
If we don't smarten up here very soon it will be us working for 50 cents an hour.
If we are truly a world power we have to act like one. What the Republicrats are doing is coming very close to treason in my n.s.h. opinion. Personally I don't care if I ever see the "Made In China" label again. Between the US, Canada, and the rest of central and South America you're DANG right we could survive on our own. Maybe it is time we tried. All we could do is fall flat on our faces. We are doing it anyway as I see it.
Respectfully, Joe
A few years ago I was talking with a rather large mill owner in Mancelona about the price of maple. He mentioned alot of the maple was being purchased by the Chinese, with the product being resold here. I had expressed disbelief that they could buy here, ship to China, reship to America. He said they didn't. They shipped it to the west coast, loaded it onto factory ships that went into International waters (10 miles I believe) and processed it there.
This guy's story seems to be in agreement with Beenthere and FlaDeadheader. ;)
My input was about Japanese Ships. Same old, same old. ::)
China is becoming a market force affecting wood products even here in Kentucky. The guy selling WM Vacuum Kilns on ebay from Liberty KY lost his contract for drying turning squares (ballusters) to China. The logger over the hill from me has shipped a couple containers of cedar to China in the past year. I can only imagine the impact on the West Coast...
Warren
Monday I visited with the production manager of Cedarworks. A year ago several hundred people were employed in Peebles Ohio making birdhouses and birdfeeders. Today none. Now some of the production is done by the Amish and the rest is in China. Cants are being shipped from Bloomsburg Ky and Arkansas to China for resawing and making the small birdhouses and birdfeeders. The larger Gazebo feeders are coming back as a package of parts that are assembled here in the US.
I am looking at making the bird feeder posts. I have a target price that I will get. My big advantage is I can use a good bit of wood that does not have a home. The down side is the labor involved. Plus no shipping charges except for the final product is another plus. When they did the work in Peebles they had about 6 minutes of labor per post. I will have at least 10 minutes per post when I start out. I am sure we will get more efficient as we go along. So I will have about $2.00 to $2.50 labor per post while the Chinese would have 10 cents or less.
It seems a slap in the face to the local peoples that are victim of this. The people in the Central/South American country should have processed the cherry wood into flooring before it left their shores. Shipping cedar logs from the neighborhood 12,000 miles to china then 12,000 miles back to the same neighborhood is the dumbest thing i've heard of since that cartoon that showed an entire log being consumed to make a single toothpick. It's not just the people in the contry of origin that pays for this stupidity - it's everyone who uses energy resources to survive. (That's everyone!) What a waste.
Would there be anything unethical about denying export of raw lumber products to contries that process those products for export back to their country of origin?
Tariffs and duties are not allowed anymore unless you want to fight the WTO. Just look at our stupid attempt with lumber from Canada.
The only way is for us as consumers to use our dollars to vote with. Like it has been said the businesses will go where the money is so if we purchase products made in the USA or other countries in the Western Hemisphere then that is where they will be made in time. We have voted for chinese products because we purchase the lowest prices so that is where the companies go. I for one will buy American products if available at a reasonable price. The lowest price is probably the low quality too.
Farmerdoug
:D :D :D WELCOME to WALMART :D :D :D
I am very fimilar with Walmart. ;) We have one of the first stores in Michigan here. They just moved down the road a half mile to a new supercenter store. ::)
Farmerdoug
I don't put any faith in consumer habits. They are, generally, not going to know this kind of shenanigan is going on. Even if they see "cedar" and "Made in China" on the bird house they are not going to understand that the cedar came from their own back yard and hidden in the costs is an severe energy charge that will also indirectly raise their costs of electricity and fuel.
As far as the WTO is concerned, I don't feel they would get involved in export issues so much as being concerned with import issues and their regulation. I'm saying the country of origin should control the export of their logs. The import will take care of itself. If it don't, the country of export can simply start building the products and processing the material locally to cut the problem off at its knees. boxingsmiley It would be a great incentive to keep the offending country in line. But, this answer makes too much sense ::) and should be labled idealistic. no_no smiley_headscratch smiley_ignore
I have just been asked to provide 250,000 feet of 1x6, 1x8 and 2x6 and 2x8 for export to China this year. At a price that is well above what industry pays in the US. He also said he would sign a PO for 1 million feet for 08. My first respose is to get the hipboots out and the BS detector. But I will investigate and find out what is going on.
As far as shipping logs and lumber to China. I am in favor of selling to the person who pays the most money. Why should I suffer? Europe pays a lot for veneer logs and the US veneer mills complain. Why should the timber grower sacrifice price so US mills can have it cheaper?
I also heard that China is going to impose a 10 per cent tax on incoming cedar. Just a rumor, but from a reliable source.
Strange things are happening in the cedar business.
Congradulations Cedarman,
I hope he is legit. Those are big orders. I hate to sound contradictory but I would'nt turn it down if I were you. Besides, 1x6s, 8s and 2x6s and 8s don't sound like birdhouse material. Anyway, you have no way of knowing where the end products will be shipped. If you did would it change your decision?
That 10% tax rumor suggest there is more going on here than meets the eye. I wonder if they have a native wood that is comparable to ERC? This is one of those cases that suggest some back-room deals that wouldn't stand the light of day. Maybe I'm better off not trying to make sense out of this?
I think that the higher energy costs are going to help the local economies in the long run. It will cost more and more to ship the wood by truck to the west coast then by ship to China and back then on trucks again to the markets. As these costs skyrocket it will become more economical to produce products locally for local markets.
If China and Europe pay better for the wood then sell it to them but also try to open new markets for local products from local woods also. I think duties and tariffs are the wrong way to go. It is like a bandage on a severed limb. Good for the short term but you will still bleed to death in the long term if you do not fix it right quickly.
Farmerdoug
Quote from: Dana on January 25, 2007, 06:50:30 AM
............... They shipped it to the west coast, loaded it onto factory ships that went into International waters (10 miles I believe) and processed it there.
This guy's story seems to be in agreement with Beenthere and FlaDeadheader. ;)
I'v done some internet searching and couldn't find much on this. If you have a chance, check out www.snopes.com to dispel some internet rumors.
Here's an interesting lumber-related story! http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/lumber.asp
I sat here for over an hour typing m.h.o. about the China trade. When I went to post it, the forum had logged me out and I lost all my humble input. So here I begin again.
I have been following a internet auction site at www.irsauctions.com. For all of you interested in woodworking and sawmilling it is a great site. You'll feel like a kid in a candy store looking at all the tools and machines that are for sale. Many of the sellers posting are whole furniture plants that are closing. After following this site for several years and always seeing furniture plants continually closing, it made me real curious to find out why. I did a internet search on some of the plants closing and the common response was "moving operations to China". One article said that over 60,000 jobs had been lost in the furniture business. That was several years ago. One article about a family owned hundred plus year old business stated they couldn't compete any more. It sure looks like the end of the furniture business to me. Hardest hit is the southeastern U.S. but there are plants all over closing their doors.
As all these plants close, what is going to happen to the timber and lumber business? Are they far behind? My uncle closed his sawmill several years ago. He said it wasn't profitable any more and there was to much competition. They had been in business for nearly thirty years so I don't think you would call it a fly by night operation. They provided income for four families. Luckily they got jobs in the forestry industry and were never unemployed. But if the market for processed wood decreases when all these plants close, how many sawmills will the market sustain? I just think a lot of really good hard working lumber people are going to get steamrolled under. Some will learn to adapt to a global market and some will find a small niche and survive. Maybe the answer is to find your foreign market now.
One only needs to look at the American tool manufacturing industry to see where this is leading. How easy is it to find an American made tool any more. I am sure many of you are like me and have a fair collection of power tools at home. Few if any of my tools are U.S. made. I didn't start out to buy foreign and would prefer to keep my money for U.S. products. The reality is that when you find a good tool at a reasonable price you buy what you can afford. As long as the big boxes fill their shelves with foreign goods we will continue to buy their goods. We feel great when we actually find something American made. We feel sorry for the guy who lost his job but helpless to even think there is anything that we could do to help. I don't have any answers but are we going to lose most of our manufacturing jobs. Maybe these jobs will come back when the only pay will be minimum wage and no benefits.
I will get off of the soap box now but the China thing touched a bit of a nerve.
One thing that I have been wondering about is like what happened in this area, this is just an example, it is happening all over the country.
We used to have 2 shoe manufacturing plants here in town and one in the next county, all went to South America, cheaper labor. I understand about about that, but, when all the jobs leave what are the people out of a job going to buy that cheap product with? Seems like somewhere along the line somebody is going to have to spread the wealth around a little or be sitting on a warehouse of their product that nobody can afford. Course I'm just poor ole country boy, what do I know.
There aren't too many companies that understand "selling" anymore. They think that Marketing is the thing to do and making is the thing to do, but, a million square foot Wal-mart is supposed to run on two cashiers. When they don't make any money, it must be because the economy is too bad.
That is exactly right Tom. I have to go do mandatory competition checks at 2 competitors every week for my company. One of them is Walmart. I get to visit 4 different SuperWalmarts around the WPB area, so this isn't unique to one location. Rarely get a third of the prices on the list because the product isn't on the shelf. You could lay down in a couple dozen sections where the product should be.
I laughed out loud at a radio report that Walmart hadn't met their sales goal and were gonna drop some more prices to get more people in the stores. :D
They would kick their goal in the teeth before noon everyday if they just filled the shelves. :D
Seein's we are in competition, I just ;D
I've heard all these arguments before. In the '60s and '70s we heard that all the steel mfg was going to go overseas. It was supposedly high labor costs. My dad worked for Bethlehem Steel. Labor costs were high, but he was working with equipment that was pre-WWI. The only thing that kept Bethlehem Steel in the forefront was that all other major steel producers were bombed during WWII.
Now we are seeing it in other industries. Furniture is the most evident to us, since that has a direct effect on the forest products industry. Again the culprit is cited as high labor costs.
I contend that labor isn't the real problem. For some, its the cost of environmental equipment costs, but that is going to come to play in places like China and India in the near future. But, all those places have been the recipients of new investment money. They are working with new equipment, much of it CNC type, while we are still struggling with technology that is way older.
That is what lead to the downfall of the steel industry. Bleed off profits and give to the stockholders and CEO. Invest your new equipment in other countries where they give you tax breaks or environmental breaks, for the time being.
Look at those equipment sales. How much of it is new equipment? LaZBoy did that to one of our local companies and shipped it all to China. I won't buy any of their products. But, the Chinese have invested heavily in infrastructure while we have left ours decay. Follow the investment and prosperity will bloom.
As for the forest industry, we're still doing pretty well. But, upper quality logs are starting to go to mills that can mill them cheaper. That means better yields, quicker production and ( :o surprise :o) new equipment. Trying to compete with old technology is a losing situation.
Small mills can survive with the niche markets. Large mills aren't designed to handle certain types of logs or cut certain types of lumber. They are too industrialized for that.
With all the manufacturing going overseas, we should have a big unemployment problem. Well, look at the numbers, unemployment is low, and immigration is high to fill job needs. We are manufacturing more in the US than ever before with a lot less people.
As I have said before, we have to become more efficient, use innovative equipment. More goal is to run the mill with no employees. Never happen, but most employers would love to be out of the employment business.
We have more entrepreneurs than ever before. If our gov did anything, it should encourage mom and pop businesses. But no, they give the subsidies to the biggest. Build a big plant and hire a bunch, get all kinds of perks. Put in a small sawmill, and what do you get?
Just had another inquiry for 3 containers of 10" and bigger logs, peeled to go to China. Cedar is a pain to peel green. So anyone interested?
China builds a state of the art furniture plant in half the time it will take to get an approved environmental impact plan for a new plant in the US. Coupled with high labor costs make perfect sense to me to manufacture overseas.
Many parallels can be seen if you study American history after the civil war.
If you could convince people to vote with there dollars change could be effected overnight.
Back up the wagon train a bit Cedarman.
We have a HUGE unemployment problem in the areas that were manufacturing based.
MI's economy was based on manufacturing, now MI has almost no economy in a sense.
For more then three years, MI has been in the top three with the highest unemployment rate.
MI used to have more manufacturing then most if not all of the other states.
Last year in Kent County alone, the foreclosure rate was up 74-76% over the year before, due to the lack of jobs.
You've got a long ways to go to convince me that the first paragraph in your last post is even close to being accurate.
One thing about unemployment figures. They don't count those folks that have fallen off of the unemployment roles. That means if your unemployment runs out, you're no longer counted. The chronic unemployed are not counted.
Entrepreneurship is a two edged sword. Are they doing it because they see opportunity or because there is few other options?
We have a lot of consulting foresters in our state that have no experience due to no jobs. Just hang out the shingle and you are employed. Same goes for some of the loggers.
And some of those folks that have found jobs have found them at lower rates than before. My brother worked for a Fortune 500 company in their maintenance department. That was discontinued and subcontracted out. He ended up working for them for a $2/hr paycut. He was too old to move to another company.
It's not just the chronic unemployed that aren't counted, it's the management positions that are done away with too. Those people work at the pleasure of the company and seldom have access to unemployment compensation, so they don't apply. Downsizing is the nice word. None of those are counted. Neither are military who finish service, self employed that go under, those who are too proud to go on the dole, and a miriad of other's. Actually, only those who apply for unemployment compensation are counted and that runs out, so, those individuals fall off of the end into oblivion.
And, yes, you are right. Employment doesn't mean that those who have found new jobs are continueing the American Dream. A middle manager who replaces his $80k job with a Wal-mart $15k door greeter job isn't exactly what I would call not being unemployed.
The Unemployment figures also don't count those who were forced into retirement when they lost their spot in the work force. As a matter of fact, Retirement covers up the fact that many of them lost their homes, insurance, automobile and are living in destitution.
Furby, a lot of companies have ran from your state for reasons I think it best to not get into here. Manufacturing jobs in this area and father south have really increased in the last few years. I know some think it is because the managers like grits, but that is not the entire reason. We are not even in a grits eating area. It seems that while one area of the country booms, other areas have a down turn. When all areas have a steep down turn at the same time, we will have a depression. :(
Bob
Yes Bob, but do you know how many of those companies who ran from MI stayed in the US?
I have no idea Furby.
Bob
Not very many, not many at all.
Most operations that left MI, left for other countries, not other states.
I agree that there are all those uncounted ones unemployed. But there were the same types of unemployed, 5, 10, 20 years ago, so I stand by my assertion that unemployment overall in the US is low.
True, some people are forced into entreprenuership. I think that is good. They become more creative when they get hungry. Being creative makes for new ways of doing things which is better for all of us.
The other evening I sat in a restaurant talking with some friends and one of them brings up factory work. He worked as a temp for a while in a car part manufacturing place. He was telling about when the line would go down, many people would he real happy that they could just do nothing for a while. He thought they were crazy. He told them that if they weren't productiive then the company would go broke and they would lose their job. They just laughed at him. The company went out of business because they couldn't compete. My point is that too many people in this country have a "Don't work too hard" attitude. On the other side of the coin are many people in this country that don't know when to quit. Usually they are the entrepreneurs.
Foreign lumber: In Tokyo Saturday morning, I bought some SPF lumber. 2" by 4" by 12' - 498 yen (That's $4.10 U.S. tax included.) 2" by 6" by 12' - 1,580 yen (That's $13 U.S. tax included.) 2" by 8" by 12' - 2,280 yen (That's $18.76 U.S. tax included.) This was some of the prettiest pine I have ever seen. It was planed so smooth I think it must have been sanded as well. Every board was as straight and flat as it could be. No crook, twist, or warp at all. I don't know where this stuff came from, but it is fantastic.
Manufacturing jobs in the midwestern U.S.: I grew up in the Alton, Illinois area, near St. Louis. When I was a kid, many thousands of people were employed at places like Laclede Steel, Owens-Illinois Glass, Olin-Mathison, Winchester, Alton Boxboard, etc., etc. It was almost a given that kids graduated from high school and went to work at one of the local factories. Olin-Mathison is the only one left now and it is a fraction of what it once was. Most people in the area have been forced to move elsewhere to find jobs or they make a lengthy commute into St. Louis.
The American way of life: I grew up in the 60's the youngest of five kids, my Dad died 6 years ago at the age of 82, my Mom is now 85. We never owned a new car. We never bought a new house or had one built. We always made due, although never lived high off of the hog. Nowadays, it seems like too many people think they have to have a new car or two, one for him and one for her, a new house, four bedrooms and three bathrooms with deck and swimming pool, big screen TV, etc., etc.
I don't get it. My own son is driving a $38,000 mini-van and wonders why he can't afford to buy a house. :o Duh!! He ought to be driving a little second hand car so he can afford to make a mortgage payment.
Don't get me wrong. In June, I will be unemployed, living in the St. Louis area again and hoping to find a way of supporting myself and my wife. I don't know how that will turn out. I suspect we will live conservatively and I will work somewhere or maybe buy a sawmill, but I will definitely not be driving a new $40,000 automobile.
Jim
Any state that complains they can't keep jobs there, Iowa included, just needs to look at their state gov for the reasons why. MI is rated in the top three for the amount of bs it takes to run a company there, we're not far behind. Yet Iowa will give breaks to get you here and then pith and moan when they expire and the co moves to the next sweet spot.
Low taxes, low regulation and a business friendly legislature will get you more jobs than you can use. The overseas myth is just that. You cannot get a skilled manufacturing labor base in China or Mexico, maybe one that can turn a widget but not skilled.
I will admit that our state is not very business friendly. Then again our Govern is not very friendly to us taxpayers either. >:(
Jim, Go to a high school around here and look at the cars the kids are driving. I bet some of them are newer than their parents. This have a new car thing is way out of control. People borrow money nowadays without even planning on paying it back. I think that all debt be secured. I know that credit cards have high interest rates but I beleive if you borrow you should pay it back period. My cousins are losing their house because they cannot control their cash flow so what do they do? They go and buy a new Harley on payments. :o
Farmerdoug
How they figure unemployment rates in the US:
http://www.fiu.edu/~thompsop/money/data_of_macro/unemployment.html
It wasn't what I expected.
Thanks Ron, that was very interesting
When i was looking for a car to get around in my dad said one thing and said it one time. What he said was that he bought his first car with no help and that is how i was going to get my first car.
My first truch was a 1974 Dodge 3/4 four wheel drive bought it for $350.00 in 1993.
I will tell my kids the same thing.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom
We have taken the same route. We have been in the position to buy for them but it does them a disservice. Our policy has been that in order to get help you must first get a job. But we do not allow them to get a job without As and Bs. Our senior girl waitresses at 2 restuarants part time (well one now, she just broke up with her boyfriend who's parents owned one of the resturaunts ::) ) and is a straight A student; we did buy her a car because she has her act so together but she pays her own gas and insurance and is a great role model for her siblings to shoot for in getting the same help.
Our junior daughter is not being as motivated and is bumming rides. When she wants to get the lead out and establish a track record she will earn her freedom.
The boys are both on par for earning help from mom and dad and will get it soon as they are old enough to hold jobs providing their grades don't suffer.
Too many parents today are afraid to let their kids work after school or on weekends.
If we had 20 million in the bank our kids would not have to have less discipline in our eyes.
Our job as parents is to bring them up in the way of the Lord (this automatically covers honesty, character, integrity), teach them the importance of keeping up their grades, teach them a good work ethic, and teach them that anything worth having is worth working for.
Too many kids are spoiled rotten these days and don;t even know simple phone ettiquite.
Most adults these days don't even know how to be poite and respectful on the phone.
If you call my house and a young adult answers the phone you will not be treated like you have interupted our lives. that chaps my . . . . . . chaps.
Well. according to the web site Ron linked to, I fit in the category of " Not in Labor Force". I no not have a job and am not looking for a job. Come to think of it, I have been in this category most of my life. ::)
Bob
Jrokusek, After reading your post I also did a Google search on Chinese factory ships, Chinese manufacturing ships and more. As you said, nothing comes up on any of it. In my opinion this dosen't mean it dosen't exist. But, rather that the information is buried a bit deeper than a bit of casual searching will reveal. We are after all talking about a Comunist country and I would think possible unfair trade issues.
In any event, I have contacted a marine trade magazine editor and am waiting to hear from her if she has heard of this. I will keep you posted on the responce.
The linked article from Ron doesn't mention people who are incapable of holding a job. "Incapable" for many reasons already mentioned...laziness at the top of the list. How are these people classified?
I agree that because we, as American's, want so much stuff, that we are forced (?) to work more jobs. Needing 2 or 3 incomes to make ends meet. The $40,000 car or two, the new digital camers, or high definition TV, etc...
But I agree with Norm...
QuoteYou cannot get a skilled manufacturing labor base in China or Mexico, maybe one that can turn a widget but not skilled.
This, IMHO, has become our own downfall. Because we can make the product better, we demanded more pay and benefit's and priced ourselves out of the market. It truly is ironic to some extent because we demand high pay for a quality product, but then go to a store and buy the cheapest thing on the shelf.
American's independance of thought and action allow us to determan our own future. Whether that is inventing the next great widget or service, or being to lazy or proud to go find another job - even if we think it is "beneath us".
We can also vote the current people in office out of office if we are dissatisfied with their decision's. I am not sure what percentage of people vote on any given election day, but I'm willing to bet it's below 1/3 of the population.
Any troubles we have as a country are our own fault's. Not the rst of the world's.
I