The Forestry Forum

The FDA will probably rule whether they think it is safe or not by the end of the year.  Would you buy it?

Poll expires 2-12-07

 No , I have this thing about trying to know where and how my food is grown ... And clonning just aint right ... nature has a way of doing things that we should not be messing with .  :-\

It will probably be ok to eat but I think I will wait for test results.

Never met a burger I didn't like. All look the same to me.  ;D ;D :D

I ain't skeered of it.  Cow meat is beef and pig meat is pork.  What I can't figger out is, WHY? ???  The animals is perfectly willing and able to take care of the procreation process on their own, and there is always artificial insemination and embryo transfer to get the optimum bloodlines.  They trying to get a cow that tastes like chicken, or what?

I said no, but only because I still have a choice.  :)

Voted yes, but think most consumers will not want it in their Supermarket. At least not till more data is out there.  I'm sure we will be getting alot of customers Inquiring soon.  For Farmers, it behoves them to reproduce their best animals. If you have ever been to a cattle Ranch, you would see most are virtually looking like kissin' cousins already thru genetic modification.

Most Ranchers and Retailers are tasked with supplying consumers with a consistent product with the right amount of lean, marble, flavor and palitability. Besides if the goberment says it's safe, ain't it?  :D

i agree with DanG, Why?

our breeders should strive to improve breeds, not replicate them. 

our "science" is going to be the end of us.

Cloning is fine as long as you aren't passing on undesirable stuff.   When genes mix, nature tends to take care of most of that stuff.  We'll have to see how cloning produces.  That sheep, Dolly was it?, died an early death supposedly from a heart malfunction.  I dont think they ever really found out why.  While cloning might carry forth the same genes, we don't yet know exactly how they will always be replicated.

I had to say "I don't know" because I'd like to know something about it before I jump in with both feet.

We eat cloned food every day and it hasn't hurt us yet, as far as I know.  Oranges, pears and persimmons are cloned.  Some Tomatoes are cloned. The main reason that we haven't eaten cloned Cow is because we didnt' know how to make'em.

Man has been genetically engineering our food for a very long time. Just because we now choose to call it cloning or selective breeding really makes no difference to me.

I saw up front all  the BS about BST or BGH. It was amazing knowing all the facts and hearing all the scare tatics that were used to try to stop it from being used. Bovine growth hormone was first discovered back in the 1920's and it was hoped that it could cure dwarfism in humans. So 80 years ago at John Hopkins they both fed it to humans and injected it into their blood. The tests were a complete failure as BGH had absolutely no affect on humans. Seems that protein hormones not only are species specific, but when eaten they are readily digested just like any piece of protein. Insulin is another protein hormone and that is why it must be injected, not eaten.

I am a lot more worried about contamination in our food than wether the meat is from a cloned animal.  :)

Marcel, nature clones as well.

NO!   Something is just not right here.

 Ya , I know Furby , but I am still partial to beeing chassed by having a bull  in the pasture . Also going out to find a replacement with the qualitys that we would like in a calf .

Cloning a cow or pig seems like a lot of work to do something nature does OK by itself, but it wouldn't bother me to eat it. Now they're working on another type of cloning using tissue culture to grow specific types of meat. Basically it's like growing the steak and bypassing the cow. That makes more sense to me, but I'd have to wonder if you could get the flavor of naturally grown, cloned or otherwise, meat.

The only way that makes more sense to me is if they are putting it in K-rations.  That stuff was mystery food anyway.

The good part about it is that, if they can make a steak, they maybe can make a heart, liver or kidney that works.

When I get hungry I will eat almost anything including cloned meat. Tom, what is this K-rations you are talking about? I thought they were WWll rations. You are not that old. :o  Maybe it was a Navy thing.  I have eaten C-rations and LRPPs, but no K- rations. I feel neglected since I never got any spam.

Bob

Pigman, K-rations were before my time too.  But, in the 1950's, being in an Army ROTC program, we were introduced to them as a measure of education and harrassment.  We also sampled some C-rations. 

The Navy fed us lobster, steak, eggs, potatoes,grits, tomatoes, milk and cool-aide. 

I can still remember asking from the line, What are we drinking today.  And, having on of our youngest sailers from the Bronx yell from the mess decks, "LOUD MOUTH LIME!".

No problem with eating a cloned animal, been eating cloned friut and vegetables for years.

The problem I see is with the actual farming of said cloned animals. You have a whole herd of genetically identical animals.

Now some new strain of cow flu comes along, and if your herd happens to be susceptible to it, the ALL die. Now with with a normal herd, each animal is different, so some might snuff it, the remainder survive and pass on the resistance to their offspring.

Ian

I et a bunch of Charlie-Rats.  I was one of the few that liked the Ham and Limas, so I did ok. ;D  Where I had a problem was with "B-rations".  That was the institutional sized, canned food that was for mess halls to put something out real quick.  Well, a whole gaggle of us came in late one night, and the mess hall was already shut down.  We hadn't eaten since breakfast, so they broke out some B-rats for us.  I musta been the only one hungry enough to eat the canned hamburgers.  Next morning, I got sick, REAL sick, about 200 miles from home.  They medevaced me out to a field hospital, where I DanG near died from Botulism poisoning, while they treated me for Malaria. ::)  I got out of there after about 3 weeks and literally hitchhiked back to my unit, only to find they had shipped all my belongings home. >:(  I got my stuff back before it left the country, and it all turned out ok, except I never did find that pretty Nurse I met at the hospital. :-\

Oh those mess halls had such good food. I always remember the mornings when they had "eggs to order" and they had a grill right in the serving line. We had this big bellied cook that would stand over that grill in a T shirt soaked with sweat, a cigarette in his mouth with the ashes falling on the grill along with the sweat dripping off his nose, and he would fry your eggs any way you liked, no charge for the drippings.  :)

Hey Gary!  We musta been in the same outfit, eh? :D :D

I figure a fella ada eat oysters (ersters for you up easters) would have no problem with cloned meat. ::)

I joined the US of A army in 1963, and was eating 1950's C-rats.  Tasted my first grits in Folt Polk, went to Fort Wood, then Fort Dix, then Germany.  First real food we got was when the commander changed cooks and he bought out of the country store.  But I am with DanG, ham and lima beans weren't that bad, considering 60 per cent of the box was eggs and what ever.  Rarely, we would get the steak and potatos, think there was one can of that per 5000 C-rats.  But I was young and hungry, just a growing boy, dontcha know, and anything that fit between my belt and backbone was just fine with me.

No DanG, I hid out in Germany till I escaped from the Army in early 1964. My hats off to you for what you did to serve our country.  smiley_clapping

For me, we just got to practice and try not to get run over by a M-60 tank on those narrow roads in Europe.   :)

Thanks for the kind words, Gary. :)  What you guys were doing in Germany was important too.  Your timing was just better than mine. :D

This has kinda gotten off the track. ???  I still can't figure why anyone would want to pursue the cloning of animals for food production.  What is the REAL goal here, anyway?  I'm thinkin' maybe all this is just experimentation, and they're wanting to clone humans someday.  Is Rosie O'Donald behind this?

DanG, DanG, ya got to be Rosie into a polite conversation?  I got to Germany just ahead of getting drafted and going on a summer tour of the far east.  But there was some weird stuff going on in other parts of the world at that time, and some of the folks over there got to see the elephant, as well.

Quote from: DanG on January 29, 2007, 10:00:22 AM
I'm thinkin' maybe all this is just experimentation, and they're wanting to clone humans someday. Is Rosie O'Donald behind this?

I think you are right. Both Rosie and Trump are hoping to keep this up forever.    :)

Some years ago I read about some of the early work with Holstein cows. The hope was to reproduce a clone of a superior bull that would be worth a lot of money. You can see the obvious financial benefits if they could clone a top bull or superior race horse, etc.

If that was sucessful, they would also duplicate genetically superior cows that produced a lot of milk. One of the obstacles was the question of the acceptance of the cloned animals in the meat market. Apparently they are close to answering that question. 

As a beef breeder, I say yes.   It taste just like the last one!   ;D

Anyone ever look at EPD's for cattle?   Breeding for specific traits, including meet quality. It's almost cloning already.

As I said, I have no fear of eating the meat.  It is the motive of the whole project that worries me.  In this country, I think there is enough moral courage to prevent our using cloning in really nefarious ways, but that isn't true of all countries.  What would have happened if Hitler had had the technology?  Could he have cloned a hundred Von Brauns?  A million super-soldiers?  I think we need to rein in the nutty professors before they make a bigger mess than we already have. >:(

Cloning would be akin to putting a movie sequel out........never as good as the original and get tired of them fast.  And a lot like sitcoms on a weekly basis.....same routine, slightly different lines and an occasional new character.  But then, there are many who will watch that....week after week after week ad nausiam.  :)

And cloning Rosie is frightening, to say the very least...... :o :o :)

I agree with DanG  (I do that on occasion  ;D )

DanG, I agree with your view. Just because the good Lord gave us the knowledge to create this technology, doesn't mean we should use it. People been breeding animals for meat for years. I don't know of a good reason to slap Mother Nature in the face, she's been doing an adequate job so far.

Stew

Yes, there is certainly reason to worry. But even now, if you knew all the things that could be done and to some extent have been done in genetic selection, you would be even more concerned. However, there are enough males in this world that are not about to be cut out of the reproductive process that there is not that much to fear.  ;D

On the other hand, there are enormous benefits to be realized. I know there is research underway to figure out how to grow cartilage and spinal cords. Just imagine the benefits if you did not need new joints, you could just "trick" your own joints to repair itself.  8)

Enhancing regrowth of tissues with stem cells is certainly an attractive prospect, and I don't object to it.  That isn't what I think of when you mention cloning, though.  I think of cloning as creating a whole new being by other than conventional means.  Back when "Dolly" first came along, there was talk of wealthy people cloning themselves just to get new body parts for themselves.  I, along with most other people, find this notion repugnant and detestable, but there are plenty of people who would do it.

I voted yes, if they can make stronger herds out of copies of the one animal that proves the best for a local environment then all the better. Think of the increased food supply if you could take that one animal and skip 400 gestation periods to make a 'batch' herd. Within a couple of years you would have a fully functioning herd.

So long as they leave genetic modification out of it, I see no problem with cloning.

The human agate idea is a creepy one, I highly recommend the recent movie The Island for a look at how that could turn out. Its all action and suspense but a real good movie to get you thinking about this stuff.

My understanding of cloning is that although you have a new being, the cloned one (clonee?) will age faster and have more defects.  That's what happened to Dolly II.  I wonder if they tried to clone a clone.   ???

Also, if the FDA gives their stamp of approval, then they won't have to tell you whether its cloned meat or not.  I think the consumer should decide whether they want it or not.  Truth in advertising.

Cloned meat is ok  what I don't want is radioactive meat,from irrariating it to kill bad germs /bugs from sloppy slauder/packing plants.

That's something I've never been concerned about is Irradiation.  It certainly makes properly sealed food products have an indefinite shelf life.

Irradiation never took off. We only have 3 items in a Store with 25,000 different products. Dats a mi-nute percentage. Only one of the three actually sells. It isn't selling because most know it is irradiated. It sells because it is in one the prettiest boxes in that category. :D

It will be a life saver for disaster victims, wars and storage of expendables for leaner times.

Too many objectors and too much hype of fear put to the irradiated foods.
I think it a good way to make food safe. It will happen, just a matter of when.
Some even think they will get some left over radiation treatment from irradiated food.  :)

I ate US Army food for three years and loved it.....It was also free !!!!! The cloning issue is beset with emotion and misinformation. I have sold many millions of plants that were cloned... Many of these were covered by US patent. I continue to clone plants for fun in my retirement and love giving them away.  I look forward to eating all sorts of cloned food as long as I continue to get my social security check to pay for it........

Seeing the success of the irradiated foods is why the cloned meat producers don't want their foods labeled.  Irradiated foods would have made the recent ecoli a non-factor.  But, if you had the irradiation, farming practices would get even sloppier.  Its all industrialized food. 

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on January 30, 2007, 06:00:14 AM
But, if you had the irradiation, farming practices would get even sloppier. Its all industrialized food.

It's not farming practices that are sloppy. The problems with contamination come from packing plant practices. Those processors save every scrap of tissue (not necessarily meat) from the carcass of every animal they process.  :)

Even with that, we have the best, safest food supply in the world. Yes, there is always room for improvement, and irradiation IS one of those improvements. Most of the food contamination incidents are due to accidential contamination and irradiation would eliminate those problems. But if people do not want their food to "glow in the dark" like the opponents have claimed, then so be it.   :)

I'm thinking that spinach thing they had in the fall.  I know that Chi-Chi's had problems with Mexican onions that gave ecoli.  It ended up that it was in the irrigation water.  I'm not sure that was the same problem with the spinach.

Well, Ron, Spinach is poison.  I know for a fact that it is because my Botany instructor at the University of Georgia stood right there at the foot of the auditorium in the Lecture hall and said so.  He said it contains a deadly poison of which there is no anti-dote.  Yessir!   If you eat about three big truckloads of that stuff at a sitting, it'll kill you deader'n a hammer. :P

Tobacco is poison too. I prefer the spinach!!! 8)

Aint never tried smoking or chewin spinach though.

I voted no NOT because I am against cloning.  But because it just gets the big corp farms richer and puts more small guys in the city.  Food should be produced and processed locally. Not shipped across the world, manufactured in some mega corperate farm that has a deal with the wal-mart type stores of the world.
max

Long as it don't effect the taste of beef (rare & red), chicken fried, baked or grilled, pork (the other white meat) fried, grilled or smoked, turkey, baked or smoked I'll be just fine. My beef goes to tasten like turkey, chicken or pork, "NASA, We have a problem." Next thread, we'll cover cloned grits.  :D :D :D Where I'll get serious!

QuoteBut because it just gets the big corp farms richer and puts more small guys in the city.

The big corp farm only seem richer because the corp owners skim there salary off the top to by a new truck every year with a mansion for a house with a gas well needed to heat it. They are all 6 and 7 figgers in debt. The american consumer is the one who will suffer to bail these guys out.

My dad made a dang good living with 400 acers and 52 cows. Sure he had debt but he paid it all off and every thing he has is his and paid for. With 12 dollar milk the young small guy can't make it go no matter how sharp your pencil is. The big guys are having to apply for grants just to stay alive. The only small ones that can make it today are the ones that had the farm handed to them from their parents with very little debt.

Jason

I don't think I'd care to eat cloned meat, but that's just probably ignorance on my part.  I'd have no problem with meat that had been irriadiated.  Played with reactors for about 15 years, and (think) I have an understanding of radiation and therefore am not afraid. 

Just loaded up 2 steers to take to the butcher in the morning.  Now that's the best meat - homegrown with nothing added it doesn't need.  Butchered by a guy who has to look you in the face when you pick up the meat.  Since we started raising our own about 10 years ago, we have become "beef snobs". 

Now as to the Navy feeding lobster...........well, I don't remember any of that, and I was on a sub, where we were supposed to eat better than the rest of the navy.    Do remember those nasty Alaskan crab legs.  Never did acquire a taste for them.  Also remember "grissel chunks and snot sauce".  That was the crews name for any pre-cut meat that was thawed/cooked  in the steam table and then had some sauce poured over it.  They had official names like "pork adobo", "yankee beef stew", "beef terriyaki", etc... it all tasted about the same, and had about the same texture.

It's the bit ships that get the good groceries.  I ate like a king on an aircraft carrier and a Tender. 

We ate good on our destroyer too, but I have to hand most of it to the cook.  He would vary the menu for the day, assigned by the Navy, to fit his own menu.   Stuff like the Navy's Salad would be chopped up vegetables in a big serving tub would be slopped on your tray on most Cans.  On our Can it was changed into indiual servings of a slice of tomato on a bed of lettuce with a dollop of his special sauce on top.  That's what made our ship special. 

I ate on sewer pipe in Key West and it was good.  The best part was that it was an open mess.  You could eat anytime your were hungry.

We ate steaks and lobster on the tender. 

We ate hotdogs on my tin can.  ....but we had steaks and ham and good stuff too.  When we pulled out of a foreign port, we would have pastries from that country for a couple of days too.

Yep, it paid to have a good cook.

The mystery of K-rations was how the material in the sealed can came to taste just like the wax coating the carton smelled.

Coming back through a replacement depot, I found I could time my arrival in the chow line such that when I finished the line was very short and I could wash my mess kit and get back in line.  By the time I had finished that serving, the line was gone and they where serving seconds, and I could fill up again.

I was in the repo depo for about a week, and almost got filled up.

Seen a Corp. Memo today being prepared and sent to all our Meat Suppliers to inform them we will not carry, nor consider any commodity derived from cloned animals or their progeny.  It does not meet our specifications (and some legal mumbo-jumbo) All products being supplied have to be derived solely from conventionally bred animals. There is a certification, audit and verification process thru out the supply chain that suppliers also have to agree with also if they want to do business.

Also,
2 of the 3 irradiated items we carry are being discontinued because of no to little movement.