The Forestry Forum

I am new to this, and in desperate need of some help.  I know not all loggers are dishonest, but I found one.  Contract signed, woods been carted off and sold.  I haven't been paid.  I so far have only been able to track down one sawmill that bought the lumber, and they have been very helpful.  But I know there was more than one buyer involved. The dishonest logger has not provided me with any documents, I don't think this is how you normally do business.  I am in northern Michigan and internet searches just seem to keep me going around and around in circles with little result.  Any ideas on who to contact.  This person will not return my calls.  It looks like I have to resort to hiring a lawyer now, but it's hard with the limited information I have.  This guy just kept stalling me with promises of payment, and even sent me a handwritten promisory note.  The deadline has come and gone and now it seems so has he.  What would you do in this case.  I appreciate any advise you can offer.  I would post the loggers name, but not sure if that is allowed.  Thanks again  sandy

i would get that lawyer and file a lean on very piece of equipment that this guy has. for starters.

Ditto Ely's comments - go hire a mean, aggressive lawyer ASAP.

The water has already gone under the bridge, so to speak, but this is why the industry tries to get landowners to hire Foresters to handle timbersales.   Moving this question to "ask a Forester" will hopefully bring one into the conversation.  They may have information and maybe contacts to help you. 

It does sound like you will have to get the judicial system envolved, if the man has left. 

How do I know how much timber he has actually taken?  He subcontracted someone to cut the trees.  By his count he figures 140 thousand feet.  The loggers estimate came way below that.  Do I hire someone to go out in the woods to count stumps?  Thanks again.

If you were in Texas I would recommend you file a complaint with the sheriff, then hire a consulting forester to do a "stump cruise", you will need that information if it goes to court, and it will tell the law how much had been stolen.  This is a theft, nothing more, nothing less.

This is what one our certified Foresters will be able to tell you.  There is a very knowledgeable one  up in your neck of the woods that will probably be on later this evening.   Hopefully he will see this post.

Yes, you will probably have to hire a Forester and a Lawyer.  The Forester will be able to count stumps and measure them to arrive at an acceptable estimate of wood taken.  If the wood was actually stolen, there may even be heavier restitution than just the broken contract.   Don't start doing things helter skelter.  Wait and get some professional advice.  You don't want to do anything now that will muddy the  water any more than it is.  :)

That was Don, a Forester from Texas that has been with the Forum for a long, long time.  His word is as good as gold.  You will hopefully be hearing from a Michigan Forester soon too.   Thanks, Don.

What were the terms of the contract concerning payment?  Did you sell the wood by the load/ton/cord/mbf, etc?  If so, the logger is obligated to provide you a scale ticket for every load that was removed from your propery showing how much was removed.  If the logger is in breach of the contract, I suggest the first thing that you do is to contact the Michigan Department of Forestry (or whatever is the name of the state forestry agency in Michigan) and ask them to help you.  They can advise you of your rights and provide you with the information on how to procede.  They might even directly assist you in determining where the timber was sold by the logger.  I am sorry this happened to you, and I am confident that the Michigan State Forester can help you get the situation resolved.

Before you pay a consulting forester to do a "stump cruise" and estimate the volume that was removed, I would encourage you to get in touch with the Michigan State Forester for some assistance (per my previous post).  After consulting with the state folks (one of the reasons they are there is to assist the public on forestry matters), you will have a clearer picture of what you need to do and how to go about it in the right way.

Sorry this happened to you, but you've come to the right place.

When you say Northern Michigan, are  you in the U.P., or in northwest or northeast Lower Michigan?

Sandra,

I sent you a message. Feel free to give me a call at your convenience. Maybe I can help some.

I ain't sure about the name rules either, but I would post the thief's name all over the place to keep him from ripping someone else off. LeeB

I'm so sorry to hear about your problem.It's not that there is dishonest loggers,it's just that dishonest people get into the logging business.If this was going on in my neck of the woods,the story itself would sprend like wild fire.I know of a a few loggers that has came see me to cut my wood.I just about told them they were lucky I would even let them walk on my land.Some don't know how to cut or havest the trees,looks like a mess when they get done and some are known to take a few logs off before getting to the mill, and others storys that I heard.I have a logger coming any day now,the same one here last year.He's been around for years and he does what he says he will.I've been watching him for 25 years.He always done a real nice job and he is real busy.I had to wait a year for him to get to me.Good luck.

Can I say his name?  I'm located in Northwest Michigan.  About 100 miles south of the bridge.  This guy sent out a mass mailer.  It consisted of 2 pages of things to watch out for, and he beleived that the bidding process was the way to go.  Everyone wins.  He cuts the logs, stages them in the field, timber buyers come and have a little bidding war, and we get the best price.  I kept contacting him while this was going on, asked about documents and tear slips.  He said I'd get all of that.  I got squat, lots of promises but no money.  We think he also pulled a fast one on the buyer, because he thought he bid on the whole lot, but the numbers just dont seem to add up. So it's possible that someone else is involved.   I was usually away at work when the logs were being loaded, so I have no idea who was carting them away.  I also know that the guy who was subcontracted to cut the logs is still fighting for payment.  According to him, The cheat just returned from a horse pulling contest in Denver.  His hobby is expensive and he's using my money to fund it.  You have all been great with advice.  I have contaced a lawyer and he promises to be a pit bull going after this guy.  But he needs info, and I cant get it.  It just bums me out, because he sounded so honest, and concerned that I didn't get taken advantage of.  I guess I was an easy mark.  I cut these trees because I really needed some extra income.  Now I have to go even further into debt to get what is rightfully mine.  It only takes one to taint the reputation of many.  I'll be back, your advice is really appreciated.  Wish I could say his name, I bet some of you know of him.  Thanks again.  Sandy

Make sure you give Ron S. a message.  He's in your neck of the woods and knows the particulars in your state.

I have been involved in several trespasses. My involvement only came in after the lawyers were contacted and they decided they needed an appraisal and inventory.  This will be highly helpful if and when you go to court. 

I wouldn't trust the sub-contractors volume figures.  He was probably shorted as well, and might not know it.  Or, he is protecting the "boss".

Your first step will be to get a lawyer.  I know, it costs money.  But, when you win, court costs should be included.  My guess is that when the lawyer gets ahold of the logger, things will happen.  The logger will either dig in and delay things, or he will get out of it as quickly as possible.  I know in one case I was involved in, the lawyer was trying to make criminal charges out of the case. 

Since this guy has stiffed others in this deal, make sure your lawyer knows about these guys.  They will give tons of info and will be viewed as expert witnesses.  They will also be spreading the dirt about this guy.

I have timber land and would never sell timber without a forester. I know it is water under the dam, but get the money up front ! I know I will get alot of flack about this, but so many landowners around here have been stung..even by local loggers. I have sold many pieces of timber, through forester, and been tickled to death every time. If this guy is dishonest, and doesn't have any property or equiptment in his name you have got a long expensive fight ahead of you. I feel bad for you..no trees...no money..and probably a mess left behind. Not to mention the mess your about to get into, with lawyer, court, and your own time.

Sorry to here of your situation Sandra. What makes some fine folks like yourself vulnerable is they talk too much. And this guy heard just enough about your situation that he figured this was going to be an easy target. Sounds like the guy never cut a stick himself, he was acting as a 'fulse liason', who hired a crew to work under him. These guys often present themselves as foresters, but without credentials and some folks never question it. I can't figure how he was allowed to cut all this wood without you throwing the bum out, call the sheriff or something. I would have asked for a deposit on the wood money before the first chainsaw left the bed of the pickup. Sorry if I make it sound like it's your fault, it ain't. However, if it happened up here in NB, you wouldn't get much results even with the best lawyers. Sad state of affairs and very common because hardly anyone hires a forester on private land to look after the job up here and rarely a plan followed, though often times some kind of contract which merely states the terms of cash flow , such as how often and how much. I've done a few stump cruises for land owners, but they are usually small parcels and the value of the wood would never pay for the court costs. Biggest trouble here is you have to prove he did it, often times you have to prove you own the land and you also have to prove the guy willfully crossed a boundary line to steel wood, if he is sneaking wood from and adjacent harvest. All kinds of stone walls.  ::) People stole wood here off my father for years, neighbors and loggers both.

Amazing, I just had the class on timber theft two days ago. Let me hit a few highlights.

Rules and regulations vary by state, so you'll need local expertise, but this is fundamental: Timber theft is a crime. As in police, not lawyers.

In Louisiana (which claims to lead the nation in prosecuting timber theft, about 70 cases a year), the investigation is done by the Dept of Agriculture and Forestry. The guy doing the investigation may or may not be a forester by training, but he is a cop with a gun and a badge. He does the arrest at the end of the investigation. So the advice to contact a state forester is sound. These are the guys that understand how the system works and where to get the information.

Note that in Louisiana, it's against the law to take more than 30 days to pay the landowner. Just call the sheriff, it's the same standard as bounced checks.

There are five types of timber theft:

1. Outright theft. You drive off in the morning and when you come home, your trees are gone.
2. Theft from absentee landowners. Sooo much easier.
3. Diversions. Took off an extra load or two and sold it to somebody else.
4. Contract fraud. Either not living up to the contract or abusing the fine print.
5. Merchandising deception. Took off 15 loads of sawlogs and 5 loads of pulp and paid you for 5 loads of sawlogs and 15 loads of pulp.

The guy giving the talk loved making a federal case about it. Literally. If the bad guy took it across state lines (interstate transportation of stolen goods) or used the mail (mail fraud) or long distance telephone calls (wire fraud) it became a federal offense. Unlimited assets to chase the bad guys and guaranteed jail time on conviction. His conviction rate after 20 something years was 100%.

Call the cops. The only ones that get away are the ones that don't get chased.

Sandra. send me a private message with the info about this logger. I want to see if I know anything about them.  Also, make a call to the Michigan Association of Timbermens to see if they can help. You can get their contact information at www.timbermen.org

My Grandma was here last summer when a timber buyer showed up with his line of BS about sustainable harvests and such.  He gave her a card and was ready to start cutting when she told him that she didn't own this land and Dad and I do our own harvesting and for others as well.  He actually asked her for his card back  ::) .  She didn't/wouldn't give it back  ;) ;D  The neighbor that made the pin for my Mule had a card left in his door the other day from a timber buyer.  I got a mailing from one in Petoskey last fall that I'd never heard of.  Two page line of BS with business cards both paper and magnetic.  Probably shoulda saved it but it got filed  ;)  Timber buyers aren't necessarily foresters and foresters that work for a mill are timber buyers.  Look for a neutral forester such as one that works for your Conservation District.  If they don't have one on staff they'll be able to refer you to one or contact your local DNR office.  Guys like you're dealing with need to be put in jail  >:( >:( >:(

SANDRA, This is not a forestry problem.  It's a legal problem, and you need a lawyer as has already been recommended. 

Not to say you shouldn't ask questions here.  We can guide you somewhat, but a lawyer in your area will be familiar with your local laws and how the courts handle this type of case.  He/she will tell you what you need.  Hopefully with your involvement on this Board you will know where to go to get it.   Talk to a lawyer, then let us know if we can help you further.  Keep us appraised of how it's going.

Not only talk with a lawyer, make the contact with the Michigan Assoc. of Timbermen like Jeff suggested and definitely get the Michigan State Forestry Division to help you.  You need these support organizations behind you.  You will be amazed at the good they can do in support of you rather than you going it alone against this crook.

I'd be talkin to the Sherriff right off, and at least have him aware of this guy in his jurisdiction (and then include the others that have been mentioned).  And above all, I'd have it all written down with as much detail as can be remembered. Much easier to leave a paper trail, than to leave 'word of mouth' for others to interpret what actually happened and when and with who.
Wish you good luck and God's speed to get it resolved.

Also, take as many pictures as you can to document things for possible future reference.

I did speak to Ron and he was a wealth of information. 

Received paperwork from the mill I knew about, and reviewing my notes I figured out who the second buyer was and contacted them also.  That call may produce some real results. 

The buyer called the logger and shortly after that the logger called me with a promise to send half on this upcoming Tuesday with the balance paid in full on Friday.  He just has to take care of some banking business and I'll be paid.  I'm hopefull, but I wont be surprised if its just more B.S. to stall me. 

Then this morning the buyer also called, said he applied some heat to the logger, and informed him that if that was how he planned to do business, he didn't think they'd be doing further business together. He believes after the conversation they had last evening indicates I will definately get paid.

I did file a complaint with the Michigan Association of Timberman about this logger for questionable forestry practices and ethical behavior. 

Hopefully this will all be resolved by this time next week.  Regardless I'm still insisting upon the paperwork from the second buyer, and I still intend to warn others of this mans business practices. 

So again, thanks to all who responded and the advice.  Hopefully my next post here will be one with a positive outcome.  Sandy

Good news.   smiley_clapping

The buyers can put way more heat on him than any lawyer. 

Yes, lawyers should be the last resort.  It is amazing what the pressure of the honest people in the business can accomplish if we all work together.

Quote from: WDH on February 03, 2007, 07:10:05 PM
Yes, lawyers should be the last resort.

...or in order to avoid this sort of situation, the first.

Wish I was posting a good outcome, but here it is nearly two weeks later and all I've gotten is more B.S. and stall tactics.

Had a follow up call from Mr. Logger on Monday the 5th.  States that he sending me two checks that will cover half of what he owes me and asks that I hold off a couple days, and then deposit one of the checks, and give him a couple days more for the second to clear before depositing.  He also promises to send the balance of what he owes me the following week.  He even followed up with a call on Weds and Thursday wondering if I'd received the payments.  Of course I didn't, because I really doubt the payments were even sent. 

He's again stalling for time and feeding me bull to buy a couple more days.  The following Monday rolls around, so I call him and inform him that his so called priority document still hadn't arrived.  He states that he's been to the post office to follow up on this so called document he mailed, and somehow it's become lost and untraceable.  But he's put a stop payment of the rubber checks and he's mailing me new checks.  He asks that I still hold off with depositing them, but ensures me that the money will be in the bank and all will be good. 

Well here we are on Thursday the 16th and the checks are still lost in the mail.  I mean come on..........   Priority mail should take 3 days max.  So I called him after I checked the mail box, asked him to give me the tracking numbers so I could get online and see where they are.  No return call.  I call again and tell him how important this is, and that it's not too late in the day to track this document, USPS website is 24/7 and regardless of the hour, I could still take care of this task online. 

No return call, no surprise.  So also with this second phone call, I told him I was done with the stall tactics.  My Lawyer is ready to spring into action.  I'm so tired of this.  I'll keep you posted.    Sandy

Sounds to me like this guy is on the brink of extinction, or bankruptcy.

So sorry to hear you're still having problems. What a jerk.

Too late for this now since you're done with him and are turning it over to your lawyer.  But could you have gone to his home or place of business (if he has one) and got the checks in person? 

Looks like putting your lawyer on to him is the best bet.

Somebody fill me in here. Why is this a civil matter and not a criminal one? Seems to me you should call the sheriff, not a lawyer. Save your money and let the system do it's job.

Its about contract compliance.  They had a contract, the logger didn't hold up his end.  Had he come in and cut timber via a trespass, then there may be some criminal action. 

Must be a state thing. In Louisiana, failure to pay after 30 days is a criminal offense, same as a bounced check.

Yes, I'd contact the sheriff also and go both routes criminal and civil. The continued lack of payment and poor excuses is becoming criminal especially if there are other such complaints involving this logger.

In several cases that I am familiar with in the past, if it could be established that stolen wood was purchased by a mill, then the mill's inventory could be impounding pending resolution of the issue.  As you can imagine, that is a severe penalty for a mill, and they usually try to cooperate and help to resolve the issue.  Contacting the mills that purchased the wood and informing them that you will pursue litigation to recover your money might spur them to be more cooperative and to take action against the logger.  You should not threaten the Mills, merely inform them that you are taking legal action as is your right.

Yes, that should be done also.

I was talking with a mill owner just this past Wednesday and he told me that he had purchased logs from a logger and then found out that the logger had not paid the landowner  for the logs when the landowner drove up to the mill and asked the mill owner where "his logs" were.

The mill owner said that the logs were already cut and in the lumber pile. Even so, the mill owner ended up paying the landowner $10,000 for the "unpaid logs' his mill cut.

He said that he will no longer take logs from that logger and now watch closer from who he is buying logs from and where the logs are coming from.

That is what initiated the trend here that mills not buy from loggers.  Mills only buy from Brokers and require proof of a million dollars of insurance before a log truck is allowed on the grounds.

Small mills would have a lot of trouble with paying for logs a second time, even though the law might be requiring it.  A logger who puts a mill in that position deserves more than a reprimand and reimbursement.

I was told in the beginning to make sure I wasn't buying stolen logs and to get a signed Bill of Sale on every transaction.  It's also a good idea to make sure that the logs you saw for others are owned by them and that you don't become a party to a theft.

As your service company matures, you will learn who your trusted suppliers are. 

TOM, are you saying that in Florida only brokers can buy standing timber, not loggers?  Or can a logger also be a broker?

What are the requirements for somebody being a timber broker?

Phorester,
I don't know the particulars other than the big mills work with brokers, not loggers.  I suppose a logger could also be a broker.


What I do know is that I can't sell my trees to the mill and no logger I know of can sell my trees to big mill without the interceding of a Broker.  The check is written to the Broker and he pays the logger, and the landowner. 

That's kind of like what our marketing boards do. We also have brokers but... The marketing board gets the scale bill from the mill, pays the trucker, the logger and the landowner. But often times the landowner is out of the deal because he sold the wood lump sum to the logger. We also have load slips to show chain of custody that the trucker has to log and remit the the marketing board. The slips have property id, owner, locations and destination of the wood. It's easy to check the source, just pull up a map of the property and go see if there was logging there. Anyone that thinks they can't be checked and at any time is playing a loosing game. It takes less then 5 minutes to find a map with aerial imagery and then what ever time it takes to drive there. ;)

Sorry to hear about that.  In Idaho, any wood that is sold to a mill by a logger is tracked via a compliance system.  they are legally bound to report where and when they cut the timber or else the mill won't take it.  Do they have such a system where you are?  it sounds like you were able to get an idea from one mill.

Such practices here would put a logger on a violation list making that person/ firm ineligible to sell wood to a mill until whatever situations were rectified...  The essence of this rule might work in your favor.  have you tried to publicize this with local newspapers (after letting him know that's what your planning??).

I agree that you need a lawyer and probably an idea of how much and what species of wood was cut.

best of luck.

Sandra,

Have you contacted the Michigan State forestry Commission (or equivalent name there), and the local police and or sheriffs dept.  We already know you contacted the Michigan Timbermans' assoc. and you lawyer.  The timbermens assoc. just sounds like a trade organization that will support you but with what results i don't know.  CONTACT the Forestry commission, which should be the state equivalent to the US forest Service, heck give them a call and tell them you want the local state foresters # and they will shoot you in the right direction.  Most of us in the business know who our counterparts are in other sectors.  But once they are involved they will pursue the issue of timber theft which is what this is.  They may even do the stump tally as part of their investigation and if you state is like ours (SC) you are entitled to restitution payments of 5 times the stumpage value as a penalty.  PLEASE contact your local STATE forester so that they can get the ball rolling while this guy still appears to be local, and can put a lean on Equiptment before he sells it all of because of other situations like yours.

Hope that you receive all that is entitled to you plus your legal fees and the penalty fees if they exist in your area.

Nate

I'm still hanging in limbo.  Here's the latest update.  First the partial payment that was promised to me never came.  He claimed to have sent me 2 checks in the amount of $10,000 via priority mail.  Those never arrived, and he said the post office lost them and claims to have ordered a stop payment on those checks, and then resent them again via priority mail.  Well those darn postmasters lost that document also.  When I informed him of this, he promised to drive north and hand deliver them.  I jumped on that, and even offered to meet him half way. 

I called and left him a message of location and meeting place, and waited for him to call and confirm.  I waited, and waited some more, but he didnt call back.  So I called him with someone elses phone and didn't leave a message when his service picked up.  Within 5 minutes he called, wondering who called, and I surprised him.  We set up the location and time, then later he called but I figured he was calling to cancel, and I didn't want to hear it, so I  didn't pick up.  Shortly after that another call comes, and its from a friend of his, who explains he can't make it, and he will be there in his place.

We meet, and I get my 2 checks, but they are post dated.  Fine, at least its something.  The following Tuesday I deposit the first check, and ask my bank to see if the funds are available and guess what?  He doesn't have enough there to cover it, but he assured me, that by the time the first check was returned to his bank it would be, so I went ahead and made the deposit.  A week later I receive notice from my bank that the check bounced, and they will resend it.   They did resend it, and again it's returned for NSF.  So I have one bounced check, and the other is as worthless as the first.

I called the second buyer back today, and he's surprised.  He thought this issue was resolved.  He is again attempting to contact the logger and put some pressure on him, but I'm not very hopefull.  As soon as I get that first Check returned to me, I'll take it to the police, and the district attorney and go forth with prosecuting him for the bad check and the breach of contract law suit. 

On the up side, I did learn that in Michigan, the penalty for writing a bad check could be up to 2 times the amount of the check.  And with his track record so far, I think a judge just might award me that.

I hate having to go this way, but I'm so tired of excuses and delay tactics.  I may never see my money, but once this is settled, I will do all I can to warn honest people out there of this character.  The hard part is, during our conversations, the logger is telling me that he has money coming in, he has some logs cut and ready, but weather delays are slowing things up, and all I can think of is that somewhere out there, is another person, who is going to end up going around and around with this crook trying to collect their money.  It's just not right.   So by Monday, I plan to quit accepting excuses and stall tactics.  After this, he will deal with the police and my lawyer, the DNR, the BBS, and everyone else you've all suggested.  I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks again for letting me vent.  Sandy

And the local sheriff says................... ???

We'll stay tuned, to find out. Thanks for the update (I'd a been to the law a lot earlier, but you have more patience I can see).

    I don't know about where you are at but in Florida if you accept a post-dated check and it's NSF you are out of luck. The State's Attorney will not prosecuted on a post dated check because the presenter admitted to you that he did not have the funds. The check then becomes a promise to pay. This guy sounds like a pro (as in con, not logger). I'm sure he knows the laws better than an honest person. Be careful that he does not corrupt your legal position. The guy sounds like a liar and a thief and should be treated as such.

   Good Luck and don't give up.

Mark

Sandra,

This is now criminal. Non payment for timber in a timely and reasonable manner as described in the original contract is "timber theft". What happened to the funds to pay for your timber as agreed to? You need to file the criminal charges on all parties involved including the mills known to have processed your logs.

You need to contact your state forestry commission.  There may be a statute of limitations and you don't want to pass that, which may hinder collection.

Nate

Getting results at last.  Somehow I feel something fishy is going on, but I'll ignore it for now, I just want my money. 

I told you I called the second buyer again.  During that conversation, I told him that the DNR was involved, my plans to file a lawsuit, and then the bounced checks, and other information that all led up to having him involved. 

I just heard from the logger, the logger said he (the second buyer) bought his latest load of timber, and is withholding the funds, and will pay me directly with a certified check.  I'm still out 21 grand, but the logger promises to settle up within two weeks and claims he will even throw in a little bonus for my trouble.  I'm not confident about the latest promise.  But I am pretty sure the buyer will come thru on his part.  Just hope he uses a different post office.  Ha.   

Keeping my fingers crossed.  But not holding my breath.  I'll keep you posted.  Sandy

 :-X :-X :-X

Sandra Kay
Now you have received good advice here, as I see it. But seems to me you don't want to follow the advice. But, it's your funeral, not ours.
Sorry to be so blunt. But you must like this game.  ::)

I believe the buyers have some accountability if the logs in question are or were in their log pile.  It is good that you got them involved.  I am hopeful for you.  If you can get some of the money owed you, then you may be ahead.  There is a chance that if you sue him and he bankrupts, you might not get anything.  If you get some of the money and he renigs later, you can still sue him anytime. 

Quote from: ellmoe on March 01, 2007, 07:02:20 PM

   This guy sounds like a pro (as in con, not logger). I'm sure he knows the laws better than an honest person. Be careful that he does not corrupt your legal position.  

I agree with Mark, and is the name on the checking account really him or is it the name and account that he uses for scams like this. Run some info on the name on the account, my guess is that he never deposits any money into this account, but plenty of money in other accounts he has. It may be possilble that his whole identity is a facade. ??? Do you know if anyone actually knows this guy or just knows what he told them. Have you ever met this guy face to face as himself. My guess is that his operation is an empty 10x 10 office space with a phone that is billed under a fake name. I could be wrong but just my guess.

QuoteHave you ever met this guy face to face as himself. My guess is that his operation is an empty 10x 10 office space with a phone that is billed under a fake name. I could be wrong but just my

I was going to suggest to knock on his door.  Make sure you have protection with you.  Like a couple of big guy's.  I wouldn't accept anything but a cashier's check or cash from this guy.  Because he wrote you those checks, that means he understands he is in debt to you.  Start recording your phone calls with him. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. I think a call to the sherriff will hasten things quite a bit.

I wouldn't lose another moments sleep.  I'd go straight to the Sheriff and follow that with trip to the State's Attorney.  Then I'd be hunting for Forester so that I had a name to give to the Attorney.

When I got through with the guy, he would be glad to get his prison uniform.  I'd take the shirt off of his back and his socks.  If he ever spent another dollar it would be after he reimbursed me for my bills and paid me what he owes.

Sorry to hear of your problems Sandy. I hope you get your money and make the mans life miserable in the process.

So, don't keep us in suspense  :)  what the latest news?

Once that guy wrote you a bad check, he committed a criminal act and it is now longer a civil matter. Go to the magistrate and swear out a warrent and they will lock the SOB up and his bond should be in excess of the amount of the bad checks.

Wish I had good news, but I don't.  First I want to respond to beenthere, I don't enjoy this!  It is not a game, and it is not fun and games for me.  I'm an honest person, who thought I made a honest deal.  I kept my end of the bargain. 

I gave the logger two weeks as he requested after the last payment.  He still owes me 21,000.00.  After that I again started calling him and as usual he didn't respond.  Now I have a lawyer on the case.  I received a call yesterday after the lumberman got the letter from my lawyer and it seems to have gotten his attention.  The letter demands payment in full within 1 week.  Lumberman is offering to send some sort of payment, but he didn't state how much.  I returned his call and left him a message that from this point on, as stated in the letter from the lawyer, that he was to deal with him.  I am not interested in hearing more empty promises about payment.  So as it stands right now, he has Until April 25th to pay in full, or it's on to the next step.

I'll let you know how it goes.
Sandy

Sandy, keep us posted.  Don't listen to this logger's excuses any longer. Keep on it, but let your lawyer handle it and go after "all" damages which are probably in excess of $21,000.

You actually do have good news for us. You have finally contacted a lawyer.

Don't let this guy off the hook.  He knows you've done that several times in the last couple months, so he will continue to try to deal only with you.  Every time he gets you personally on the phone, refer him to your lawyer then hang up on him.  If he leaves you a message, don't return his call.  Pass the message on to your lawyer.  If he comes to your house, refer him to your lawyer then close the door.

Let your lawyer handle it from now on. Stand your ground. Stand your ground. Stand your ground.

I know that it is frustrating, but hang in there. 

as phorester said--do NOT take his calls--let him deal with the lawyer only--you dont know all aspects of the law--and whats involved----he has scammed you enough--and i believe i would contact the sheriff for a no contact order--hes a real good con--and NOT to be trusted----

Hello everyone

Still going on with my case.  I have the complaint filed, just waiting for Mr. loggerman to be served.  He owes me 21 grand, but now I'm asking or should I say the lawyer is asking for over 100 grand.  This is based on 4 seperate counts. 
Breach of Contract, Conversion, Unjust Enrichment and Fraud.  Those bad checks alone will cost him 3 times the amount.  Let this be a lesson to those who write rubber checks.  I just have to hope that the judge or jury is sympathetic.  I tired to be fair, I tried to be patient, I tried to be understanding.  Not I'm a little *pithed and standing up for what is rightfully mine.  I'll let you know how it plays out.  Thanks again for letting me vent.
Sandy

Go get em girl. Good for you.

Sounds Good! Keep us posted.

I just saw this thread and nearly had a cyber stroke

> He still owes me 21,000.00

>:(

I have worried when customers prepaid me $300 for a job because they wouldn't be home and all I could think about the night before the job was all the "what ifs" that would prevent me from doing the job the next day at dawn.

I had someone prepay on some urban lumber we were cutting, the guy's mill broke down, I sat in front of the buyer's house until after dark so I could return his cash from the uncut lumber. I sweated that $400 until I put it back into his hands. $21,0000! How can the guy sleep at night?

As much as I "think" I know, there is no way I am going to do my little plot by myself, I am hiring a forester for sure. Reading these horror stories is the "oz. of prevention is worth more then a pound of cure", for sure.

The good news is you came to the right website and I wish you success. Mistake, misfortune, and bad judgement are one thing, outright ripping people off is another. imo, A person like this has little real assets, I would not try to take him to the cleaners, everything he owns is probably moth eaten with lots of holes.

re:bad checks

In GA, if someone mails you a bad check or someone else gives it to you, is one thing. If the person signs and writes a bad check for over $500 in front of you = jailable felony. So, when we use to collect rent payments from stiff house rental customers, we always had them write out the check in front of us, not hand us one already written out.

Something to discuss maybe with the lawyer.

Sandra, I'm late on this thread but I'm curious. Any progress on this case?

Still no progress to report.  Had him served with papers and he had 3 weeks to respond.  He didn't, so I won the judgement in the amount he owes me along with my court cost.  Then he had 3 more weeks to pay up or respond which he hasn't done either.  So now if I want to continue with the case, I have to see if he has anything of value and put liens against it.  The lawyer also suggested contacting lumber buyers/mills and garnishing his future sales.  But that will be difficult.  I know of two buyers he does business with, and he could easily change to a different company.  I'm no quitter, I may not ever see another dime from him, but I can make him miserable and make it difficult for him to continue doing business. 

My son just bought a old tractor in Adrian Michigan, and Jonesville was only 40 miles east, so I took a ride along and we checked out where he lives.  Didn't look too promising, lives in a mobile home and saw a couple campers.  He is still pretty active with the horses, I see results posted all the time on the Internet and he has a big trailer to haul them around and a nice big pretty truck to pull it. 

Anyone have ideas as how to notify lumber mills about this man?  I still haven't posted his name, I don't know if I can or not? 

I know getting a lawyer was the right thing to do, but now I feel like my hands are tied.  At least before, when I was able to call and nag at him, I was getting some money out of him.  Now I have nothing, and everytime I talk to the lawyer it's added to the bill.  But I'll keep plugging along.  So any useful advice out there?  Thanks again.  Sandy

I am no lawyer but I believe that as long as you are telling the truth about him you can mention his name anywhere you want - even right here.

I was afraid this would happen. Your "logger" may be "judgement proof" because he has nothing in his name you can find.  >:(

It sounds like your best hope at this point is to go back after the mills that he actually sold your logs to and threaten them. Your lawyer should know how to do that, although he probably should have included them in the court action.

That is a buyers worst nightmare when a log seller does not pay his suppliers. The buyer may just have to pay for the logs a second time as I think they can be held responsible in a court.

The only other thing would be to turn this over to a collection agency as they can hound him far better than you can. I am sure it will cost you a high percentage of what they recover.

Plus you can turn him into all the state agencys so they can prevent him from bidding on any future jobs. Also contact the local county attorney to see if he can take criminal action against this man. There can't be much question this is fraud. If you have any worthless checks or other written promises to pay, that would be a plus.

"Locally", a judgement such as yours is only good for 7 years, but.............it can be renewed again and again;  just have to go to court (before time is up) and ask to have it done;  almost certainly, he won't show up to contest it and it's basically a formality.  Personally, I'd probably pursue him as long as he's alive and pursue his estate afterwards............

Sandra Kay, have you talked with the Michigan Association of Timbermen and notified them of who this is?

I did contact the michigan  association of timbermen.  I think I did that sometime in December or January.  I have'nt heard any thing more back from them.  I guess maybe I should speak to them again and see if there is anything they can do.  At the very least, I would hope that they would blacklist him if anyone should inquire about his business practices.  I also made contact with the better business bureau, and they said they could do nothing. 

My lawyer did contact one of the buyers, because he had been helpful with collecting the first payment of 10,000.  and he is the one who actually paid me the other 20,000. after the rubber checks.   He worked out some deal with the lumber jerk and prepaid him for some timber.  But he didn't respond to this latest notice.

I will contact my lawyer today and see where things stand and find out our next step.  Thanks again.  Sandy

Let me get this clear, from your last reply you said you received a total of $30,000 (10,000 + 21,000).  I thought that you had not received anything yet.  Unless this reply was mis worded or i misunderstood it or a previous message you have received all money plus $9,000.  You said he owed you $21,000 but you had not recieved a good check from him but this last message you said the mill paid you $10,000(or was this from the logger and was rubber?) But then you say that the second buyer paid you $20,000 after the bounced checks?  I all confused some one or Sandra please clear me up!

-Nate

I think that is what the judgment was for.  He sent a check or two but it bounced all the way to the bank.

As far as liens, does he not have a logging truck, saws, skidder??  He may keep his equipment somewhere else, surely a judge can order his assets revealed. 

Like Gary says, he's judgment proof.  My bet is that all of his equipment, his belongings, and his money are in his wife's name, or someone else.  They didn't sign the contract, so they're exempt.  I've seen this several times. 

I know of an instance where the lawyer went after a grand larceny case on a timber trespass.  It sure got the logger's attention, even though he was innocent in that particular case. 

It seems to me that what this guy really needs now is his a** kicked  >:( >:(

Well, let's send him an invite to Jeff's for Saturday. ;D :)

He Did it again!  Checked my e-mail and someone who read this forum contacted me.  Same Logger, same mass mailed letter sucked him in, and the meeting went well, seemed like a real honest person, but once the logs were gone, so was he.  It Makes me sick that this man can continue to rip honest people off like that.  One of the cutters was Amish and he even wrote him a rubber check.  That's just wrong!!!!  Like me, this guy dosen't even know where his logs went, and is now in the process of calling random saw mills to see if he can get any information.  One of the sawmills he contacted, claim they also have a lawsuit, and know he has a warrant out for his arrest for rubber checks also. 

My case is still going forward.  My lawyer is in the process of looking into his assets and attaching liens to anything and everything he can.  I honestly never expect to see another dime out this man, but who know's?  Can't just sit by and do nothing about it either can I.

This letter may never be posted, but I can't hold my tounge any longer.  Nothing I write here is untruthful.  Scott Fisher of Jonesville Michigan is the logger I've been trying to collect my money from.  I just want to try and warn anyone thinking of doing business with this man.  Don't do it.  Stay far away from doing any business with this man.  Thanks again, It feels goods to vent.
Sandy

With enough bad press, maybe the mills will no longer deal with him. 

Keep on it. You need to get him into court for civil and criminal charges.

The law needs to drop on his neck.  >:( Don't hesitate. File charges and get it done or he will continue to victimize others.

Did the law ever nab him on the warrant?  If you know where he lives...  how come they haven't picked him up on criminal charges?  I'm sure the money is gone and he has little or nothing of value, or has his stuff in relatives names.  I wonder if he doesn't have drug or gambling problems to be using all this money?  He needs to end up in jail.  Hope your lawer is teaming up with that other person who got stung.  States attourney needs to nail this guy!  I'm dissapointed that all of those associations haven't been of any help.

One of the biggest scams that these kind of people run is wearing you out. The situation is they don't care about lying to you or anything. So they will say a million things to drag it out, hoping you will give up. The court system, trying to be fair, will give people the benefit of the doubt. After all, you are innocent until proven guilty. So, they work the system. The are shameless and you have to realize it.

Once you have gotten the easy money, the best thing is to hand it over to the police and let them deal with the jerk.

The reason I don't have his butt arrested, is because legally all he's done according to my lawyer is Breach of contract.  I know it makes no sense at all.  In my mind, he is a criminal, a thief, and more names than I'm comfortable saying.  He's a low life bottom feeder.  My main goal is to of course collect my money, but most important I'd like to just get the word out about this guy and hopefully save somebody some grief.  My lawyer has contacted the two sawmills, and garnished any money they may make on any further deals.  But I expect he'll just use different sawmills.  So hopefully I can get some more leads on any other mills he uses, and make my claims with them also.  It's a slow process thats for sure.  Also looking into anything of value he may own, such as property, home and so forth and attach liens against those.  So there you have it.  But if you are a sawmill owner and you know this guy and think he may be doing business with you, I'd sure appreciate a heads up.  Thanks again.  Sandy

Giving a person a check with no intention of there being money is criminal. That isn't breach of contract - that is passing bad checks. Unless he covers the checks (sorry if he has already - didn't go back and check) that is criminal. It is one thing to tell someone "I have no money" but if someone gives you a check, knowing there is no money - that is fraud, pure and simple.

You should ask the police about it - not your lawyer.

One thing to remember about loggers is that they sell logs to more outlets than just sawmills.  This guy probably also does business with veneer buyers or log brokers.  He may also sell pulpwood.

These businesses need not be in either your state or country.  But, it does give you some other avenues to pursue besides the traditional sawmill.

Other leads can be generated by checking with some of the local chainsaw dealers and equipment dealers.  He needs to get parts from someplace, and if he stiffed you, he has likely stiffed them.  A little talk with them might open up some of those doors.  People really like to deal dirt on someone that has dealt them a dirty deal.

I'd be getting or at the very least talking to a different lawyer

Sandra Kay, I thought you said he had a warrant out for his arrest for the writing of bad checks?  Did they pick him up for that yet?  That is a criminal offense and he did it multiple times with you and then with that Amish cutter.  I just looked up the Criminal penalty in Michigan:
"Michigan. Up to $250 fine or six months in jail. Up to $500 fine or one year in jail."
And that is on a per offense basis.  Not as strict as some other states, but it's something.  If you get a weak liberal judge, he could get off with less than $1000 in fines.  Get a good judge and be at the hearing and explain the case to the DA, and he can get some jail time possibly.

Sandra Kay, In Ohio, a part of the debt collection process is what is called a Judgement Debtors exam. This is a court hearing where the Defendant, under oath, is required to expose all his assets. You may mention this to your attorney to see if Mich. has something similar. Ohio's final step in the debt collection process is when the Sheriff is court ordered to seize these assets to satisfy the judgement. I'd tell your attorney that you'll pay him a percentage (agreed in advance) when the suit is settled. If he won't agree and wants to charge you by the hour than I would find another one. Good luck and be persistent
Jbeat

The bad check writing is criminal, but at this point he can also be charged with grand larceny and a few other things.  Have you spoken with any District attourneys in your district or his?  Or the states attourney?  I can't see how your laywer thinks there aren't any criminal charges here?  Time to get loud!  If attourneys aren't helping you, especially district attourneys, go to the newspapers and try to get them to write a story.  Do this after everything else fails as once you do this they will all either tell you to pound salt or they will move swiftly to do something, depending on the embarassment level.

You out of state folks need to study up on Mi law.
Bad checks are up to the Sheriff and Prosicuting Attorney of that county, were the check was written. If they don't really feel like helping you, good luck.
You can get a court ruling in your favor, and still never get any money.

Sandra, Keep at it. I know it is frustrating, but keep with it.
I would contact the Attorney Generals office and see what they can help with also.

Sandra, you could also take all your information and go talk to your postmaster about this loggers use of the U.S. mail to commit fraud the feds tend to get a little cross about that if they are willing to take it on
james

Quick update, still no money.  I did take your advice about making this public and I called Mr. Fisher and told him that I had a long list of all sawmills, buyers, mills, and anyone else who deals with wood products and I was preparing to send them all a letter, detailing the events of our business transaction and his failure to pay, and ask that they not do further business with him and to inform me if they also had issues with the way he operates.  I also told him I would be going public with the media.  I would tell my story to anyone who would listen and make his name known and hopefully put a stop to his unethical behavior.  He's also a big fan of horse pull events, and I told him I would even stoop so low to tell them of my problems with him.  It's been over a year now that those tree's were removed from my property.

That got his attention.  He at least called me back and says I'll have all my money and court cost fees, paid in full by Christmas.  I did tell him that I won't stop my Lawyer from proceeding with the case, still waiting on the sheriff to get back with us on seizing property.

I don't know if he's telling me the truth as far as payment goes, I do think I'll let my Lawyer know, and have him prepare a promisory note.  Just wish for this whole mess to be over soon.  I'll keep you posted.

It's not the first time that he said he would pay.  Keep on keeping on.

"That got his attention.  [I really doubt it]. He at least called me back and says I'll have all my money and court cost fees, paid in full by Christmas."

So, what's he doing before Christmas that he doesn't want you to keep him from doing?  Or is he trying to postpone any real collection effort from you until the next calendar year for his own tax reasons or other legal reasons?  Or is Christmas just a convenient date he picked out of the blue when talking to you that he thought would sound reasonable to you?

"I don't know if he's telling me the truth as far as payment goes....,"  [he has repeatedly lied to you about payment for over one year. Why would he not be lying this time?  He has shown you quite clearly for over a year that he cannot be trusted]  

He's stringing you along again.  Why are you letting him dictate your actions? 

As suggested earlier, let your lawyer handle all contact with him, let your lawyer do the talking to him, in writing on his letterhead stationery, or in the form of a court summons or other legal action against this man. 

Sandra
I agree with Phorester, and think you are continually doing the wrong thing...not sure where you are getting your advice. Now, I think he could make a good case that you are harrassing him, and get some court orders against you..not what you want to happen.

But I've had the same impression of the errors you've made all along...and I apologize for the insinuation. I'd really like to see you get the money you are owed, but don't think it's gonna happen with your mode of operandi.

Sorry for the fact that you don't have your money.  ::) ::)

The very first piece of advice your attorney should have given to you was to have NO personal contact with him.  All communication should be through the law office.

Corley is right, have him take everything through your attorney.

BTW - I suspect that Santa Claus will be making a personal delivery of your money.  (Or perhaps if he is too busy, the Easter bunny will get to it)

I agree with these other guys, have the lawyer hassle the guy.  it's scarier (for him) and safer (for you).

After reading this whole long story, I'm sorry to say I agree with Beenthere and that to me, it sounds like you WANT this to happen to you.
You've been told over and over here how to proceed and you turn around and do the opposite.
I don't feel sorry for you any more.

Sandra,  I would suggest you not try to help the process by throwing negative comments locally about this guy. A Judge or Jury may see you as a vengeful person and not a victim. Plus, he may be able to show a loss of income due to your actions which exceeds his debt to you. Then, you just may owe him!!!

I have not read this thread in a long time, though I have to agree with the latest. Follow the advice here and have no personal contact with him. Period. He probably recorded your threats too. Do everything through the lawyer and keep your mouth shut. Attach everything you can now because by Christmas he may fly away like a reindeer.

The reason for the lawyer is to build a wall around yourself and to prevent you from sticking your foot in your mouth, which you have already done, imho, by saying you will show up at horse show events to harass him.

Now, if you printed a 4' x 8' copy of the court order, which is public knowledge, put it on a bllboard inside your truck bed, and parked it at an event and drove around with it, that might be different. That might go over better and still be legal  :D

No insult to the honest people, but, if you want to met some of the the most lying, slickest, double dealing people be friends with someone that has a  "horse" thing and imagines themselves as a poseur breeder.

You know, in HIS eyes he might be right and you wrong because they are only trees and what are you going on about and harassing him as he did you a favor and you are lucky to get what you did. He might view it as that. I would not be around a person like this where they could claim self defense in shooting you, fwiw.