New to the forum (& lumber business for that matter). Curious what you guys pay for urban logs --- delivered, metal scanned, clean, good quality saw logs, hardwood only ... oaks, cherry, walnut, hard maple. Small trailer loads & ongoing supplier. Also would be a customer of custom sawing. I understand the reputation of urban logs but will be selective & scan.
As you can guess, I am contemplating a urban/tree service pick up service. Looking to sell some & have some cut. This forum has been invaluable to me in researching. I've owned a few small businesses, and I have never seen an industry more open and friendly. It's refreshing!
Thanks for your help.
part of what I do is similiar to what you are contemplating. I paid for some logs for some logs from 2 tree service companies but was ending up with so much pallet grade or less, as well as picking up so much junk I had to stop. I still pick up from the same 2 but no longer toss them money, so I get the good and the bad. I sell some, cut some, burn some in my wood furnace, and burn some more in my fire pit. It helps to find a firewood dealer who will take most of the less desireable hardwood as pallet grade isnt paying much now. My firewood guy is happy when I bring him quality firewood so he also takes the occasional rotten center silver maple or a huge lumpy butt log.
On the other hand if you can find tree service that will let you be choosy then find out what the payments from local mills or concentration yards will be and work from there.
Either way I think you should be prepared to see an ever growing pile of non saleable logs and cutoffs in your yard.
It might be different other places, but I have come to find that urban logs have no value to a mill. They won't take them period. If they have a value to you, then you just have to figure out how much they are worth to you. How are they going to scan them for metal? I have not had very good luck with handheld scanners and have hit metal after scanning the outside of logs. You almost have to scan on the mill after every cut, which slows you down, and also picks up metal on the mill. If they are selling them as free of metal, are they going to pay for your blades and downtime from hitting metal? I have more than once, ruined more blades than the value of the lumber from the log I was cutting.
Something else to consider is dealing with periferal things like homeowner's complaining about tearing their yard up (tire tracks on the grass, or squishing their dafidils.) ::) Dealing with this kind of irritation gets old quick.
Lot's of times nice big logs are inaccessable to heavy equipment. So you will need a light truck and trailer to get into those tight yards. You may need to take down part of a fence to gain access. Which means you will need to put it back up. After retrieving logs like this, sometimes I think to myself that it was not worth the trouble. Especially when you hit metal in the log.
Being able to walk away without the log needs to be an option sometimes.
Thanks for your input! I am aware of the mentioned issues. I expect to be very selective --- ie., metal, location, quality, etc... They are not dumping logs on me, I'm quizzing them by phone prior to pick-up. If everything doesn't add up on site, I leave with an empty trailer. The tree services know this up-front.
So, I think (???!!) I have a handle on most of these issues. I guess my question, which has been answered in part, do urban logs have any value to small mills? For the sake of argument, assume I am honest, true to my word, a steady supply, etc... ie, an outfit that you would otherwise want to do business with.... if the answer to the value question is no, then I'd rather know that now. Thanks again!
I spoke with a log buyer a couple weeks back about this very thing. I am getting more lumber than I will ever need, so I am looking into selling logs that I do not need. He mentioned they will scan the log. If it passes their scanner, then we can deal. His prices seemed to be nice, actually. I was surprized at white oak prices. He had a different price list for logs over 24". Red oak was pretty low. Walnut was way up there. I will try to find the printout he gave me.
Of course, all sorts of things play into the value of a particular log. Shake, rot, tension wood, uncentered pith, no bark left on log - all reasons tree's are cut down in the first place. Good lumber can be had from these logs, but not to a log buyer. Cutting and selling the lumber may be better in some circumstances.
I sold 60,000 bd ft of logs to local concentration yards in the 8 months of last year I had my trailer. All of this wood came from yard tree removal, some newer subdivisions and some old established houses. All were sound as I cull out the shake the crooked and the rotted. A lot of it was pallet grade pine but that sells. Actually they did take some maple with small heart rot. I also cull any obvious metal. The only log I didnt get paid for was a maple too large for their buyers mill.
I think a lot depends on what you're going to do with the wood. Are you going to be doing retail work or wholesale to other end users? That makes a difference in how long you want to hold on to lumber.
Some woods sell pretty quickly, but the off species may set around for a while. If you have paid for logs, then you have capital tied up.
One problem with some urban trees is the fast growth rate. Too fast leads to a bland looking board with little character.
It can work, depending on your log costs (if any), and your marketing skills.
I will pay you .90$ bdft for white oak 20" or bigger diameter on small end and 3 or 4 clear faces. Might be a long drive for you though. ;)
I spent an entire summer in Halifax, Nova Scotia sawing every kind of wood you could imagine (almost) that blew down in Hurricane Juan. It came from all over the city, and contained around 5 clotheseline pulleys, a horseshoe, weird chunks of metallic stuff, ceramic insulators, glass (both will destroy a blade, big time ;D) and a small bucket full of lag bolts, nails and screws we pulled out of stuff. I liked the Nova Scotia Power electrical stuff the best (heck, just screw it to that big maple there...) :D
Bottom line was that they wanted it cut bad enough to pay me $40/blade on top of my regular charges every time I hit something other than wood. Ruined at least 30 blades in a few months. These logs were not very well picked over before we got there, but lots of the metal was buried deep in the wood, and I doubt if a metal detector would pick some of it up. Talk to the sawyer and tell him that the wood may have metal in it, and you dont mind paying for a couple blades. Make sure youre on the same page ;)
I agree with most of the replies as there are too many costly issues that are hidden with each log you pick up. I am sure companies are trying hard to find ways to use urban logs and it makes sense to milling them for profit but until equipment for handling and milling urban logs comes you will always be uncertain of a profitable log.
Robert
Quote from: metalspinner on March 22, 2007, 12:08:42 PM
Something else to consider is dealing with periferal things like homeowner's complaining about tearing their yard up (tire tracks on the grass, or squishing their dafidils.)
One thing I never thought about until I saw a local arborist's truck sunk in someones back yard one time: septic tanks and tree removal equipment do not mix well. ;D
Mjs,
Are you planning to pickup from tree service jobs and have you spoken to any of them?
Quoteseptic tanks and tree removal equipment do not mix well.
Spinkler heads need to be added to the list. I always ask about that. If the answer is, "Yes, we have a spinkler system," then I ask them to mark everyone of the heads. I also check them out before I go into the yard to see if they may be damaged already. ::)
Do it for fun, there is little profit in it. Tons of better ways to make a dollar. Every pick up will be a roll of the dice, what is your time worth? Even if they are "free", there not free (opportunity cost). I have gotten very selective. Even if the truck, trailer and crane are paid for it isn't profitable enough to get me excited. Fortunately, I use all the other equipment for other purposes so it is an "accessory use" type of thing. Even logs close to home (on my street) are hardly worth it, let alone two trips (one to see if I am even interested, everyone should have a camera phone and instant email!!)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/Ologs2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/Ologs1.jpg)
Reid
Furby:
yeah, I've spoke with a handful of the tree services here in GR. The response was the same from all of them... fax me a sheet with your exact requirements...we'll call when we get one...you need to pick-up when we're at the site...we don't want you on the property for liability reasons but we'd be happy to load you at the curb....& "you should go into the firewood biz"
I haven't started a legitimate marketing effort, I'm still sizing it all up. FYI, I'm looking at the urban hauling as an entry point into the business. I'm going to also focus on drying -- I have a barn for pre-drying. Building a chamber for a DH kiln now.
My job allows me to drop & run. I'd rather contract with area sawyers. Let them do what they are good at and focus on the other aspects of the business. I raised the urban log value question because I anticipate that I might generate more logs than I need. If I want only the best logs, I'd better be reliable in my pick-ups. I don't want logs coming out my ears....
it depends on what you want.
from what I've seen, most tree service logs are not worth a whole lot. there are exceptions, but typically only with newer houses, from a homeowner that wanted a bigger yard.
a log arch is very handy in this area too, due to low impact removal.
you may have a better chance of sawing crossties from a lot of yard trees. I haven't been sawing for many years, but of the "yard" trees that i've sawn, I'm going to guess that 75% of them have had metal in them.
What may work best for you is to find one or two "smaller" tree service guys and form a good professional relationship with them. Another issue is if they are depending on you to move the logs out from a job, you have to be there, or they'll never call you back.
And then there is the homeowner that had his yard trees down and calls you to remove them, but decides that his knotty pine is worth $$$$, and thinks you're screwing him. or the guy that wants you to remove the stumps when you come get the logs (as part of the deal).
As a final point, i've found it critical to talk to the homeowner ahead of time and get a feel. most people are pretty easy going and would rather not have the log go to waste, but some people are just a pain in the posterier, I tend to not call back the guys that are a pain in the rear.
There is a source of urban and suburban trees that might be worthwhile, from what I've seen. Look at the areas where they are working on utility lines. Not all of these lines go through back yards, but do go through wooded areas.
I've seen some pretty nice wood that is either put into firewood or pushed on a pile to rot. Some of this stuff is right along the roadside. You'll still have to work with the landowners, but you have a better chance at better quality and less metal.
Contact your local utility to find out where they're trimming trees and who the tree service is. Electric companies trim, phone companies aren't as fussy with their lines.
Sounds like you had better results then I did a couple years ago mjs.
They were either selling the logs to a mill, or cutting firewood and selling it.
One company that I managed to get some from happened to be clearing the drainage near me and I almost ended up in a HUGE legal mess working with them. I don't plan to do it again, but I do stop in and ask about a real nice log if I see it laying in a yard, but I'm dealing with the land owner then.
expound a bit on the legal situation, Furby.
The more i buy logs to saw the more i understand why commercial operations don't want trees grown outside of the forest canopy. A forest grown tree will have often not have branches up to about 30-40'. These trees have a lot of high yeild, knot free lumber. The best urban grown trees may have what looks to be a good clear 10'-14' trunk until you open them up. What has to be know is how long the lower limbs have been gone. That tells you how much jacket wood the tree has that is knot free. I specialize in quarter sawn oak here in lansing michigan and the most i've paid for a veneer grade white oak log was $3.25 a bd ft in the log for a 400 bd ft butt log! When you quarter saw you can't saw around the defects that you find inside the logs. They are where they are, its a crap shoot. Veneer grade red oak is about $1.50 in the bigger sizes, but white oak appears to be through the roof! Guess what everyone wants to buy on the other end as well? I want the butt log from a tree that has no branches to about 30'. Then i know there is a lot of clear lumber on the log. How much would i pay for a 4' diameter oak tree that has that classical field tree shape at 8'? Not much, a lot of branches just under the skin. May look good, but once you've sawn a bunch you know whats going to be inside. Oak will automaticaly tell you if its has metal or not. Same with walnut. No blue stains, no metal in the heart of the log at least, could be something on the surface still. I will pay $1.00 or more a bd ft for 20" small end red oak "prime" grade or better and $1.50+ for 20" dia and better for white oaks, prime and better in grade. But!!!! they gotta come outta of the deep woods. Some houses are built in there and the trees are perfect, i'll take them. Though its not something i see very often. A prime grade butt log will show no visable cats eyes, certainly no knots, but there will be something to reject it for veneer. Rotten center is typical, cracks, slight undulations in the bark that tells them that even one face is bad.
Hope this helps. What type of equipment are you going to haul with? I would think a grapple loader log truck with a prentice type loader would be ideal for moving logs to make money.
Let me know if you get me any logs over there!
Kelvin
Simply put........ ownership of the trees/logs.
The only safe way I see it to get logs from a tree service is if they were to have totally left the property with the logs before giving them to you.
If you are picking up logs from a piece of property and have not obtained permission from the property owner, but have permission from the tree service, the property owner can come after you if they decide they want them.
It sounds crazy, but it's not.
the same thing applies to powerline right of ways. a right of way does not give the line clearing crew ownership of the timber.
I dunno about out there, but out here the guy with the grapple truck gets paid to take wood away. He gets around 400 bucks for about 25 yards, most of it goes to the tub grinder (which charges a tip fee to the hauler), some goes to the firewood guy, and I try to cherry pick the best of it before it's even cut down. I've been able so far to get a handful of tree services on the program and find decent logs almost every day. Almost always the only payment I make for a log is the removal. Any way you look at it it costs a tree service money to get rid of the wood, when they have what I want, I'll make it go away as soon as it hits the ground. I do burn up a bit of time and gas looking at duds each week, but I also find enough nice stuff to more than make the effort of getting the logs worthwhile. That said, getting logs is the easy part - getting them sawed, dryed, sold, and delivered is the real challenge. Best advice:know your market and have a DanG good plan.
If I may chime in here with a couple of points.
In all honesty (MOST) of your grade logs are going to come out of a forest not someones yard. Yard trees for the most part are low grade logs due to the tremendous amount of limbs on a tree because it grows out the open. Then there is log trash to deal with (metal, pop bottles, rocks, cloth lines, aluminum wire, Plexiglas, garden and rubber hose, string and bricks, to mention a few. That makes even the best looking yard logs a scrappola shoot, metal detectors don't pick up some of that stuff and I've hit my fair share, as I'm sure most have.
I didn't say all yard logs are junk, you didn't hear me say that, I've sawed up a few really nice yard trees that were good and clean, but the lions share was pretty much a waste of time. If I'm sawing for someone else logs, then I will saw up as many as they want as long as there is an understanding that they bring me the logs, agree to an hourly rate and blade charge for any damaged blades. By having them bring me the logs I think it's a commitment on there part in other words they have some skin in the game. I had one tree service guy approach me trying to sell me walnut logs that came out of a home owners yard. I said I would take them off his hands for free, but he insisted on charging me for them. I said no thanks, then he actually had the nerve to say, well I'll just roll them down the side of a hill. I said their your logs, you do what every you want with them, I would suggest you atleast drop them off at the chip yard or split them up for fire wood. He left in a hurry. Like I said I consider yard logs a gamble and decided I won't pay for them because the chance of actually getting something useful to sell is pretty low.
But if I'm sawing to sell lumber, it's much better to have tractor tailer loads of logs delivered to the mill / log yard , by a timber company that cuts timber for a living. You'll be amazed after you have developed a relationship with a few of them, how much they will bend over backwards for you when your in a pinch. They understand your trying to make a living just like they are. Dealing with a timber company also makes book keeping is a lot easier and sometime you can even work out terms, my favorite is net 30 ;D. These are mostly good quality forest logs that you use to make grade. Most importantly, saw them faster and with less problems. thus making a better product which you can confidently sell on the street for a fair price.
Fooling around with yard trees is ok, if I'm sawing lumber for your own personal use. I could live with a piece of garden hose in my boards. I would just cut that part out and use the rest. But I sure would not try and sell it to anyone, I would even be reluctant to give it away. It's much better to break down and shell out some money for forest timber from a real company who's business is selling timber. This way I can sell good quality lumber to my customers for a good price.
This is just my two cents worth, take it for what it's worth all of about 2 cents.
Thanks
Urban logging is a perfect niche market. Urban areas now are starting to have good log production, though it think what is urban is the new 5 acre size lots that are popping up around this state at least. i've heard of loggers going into neigborhoods where houses where built into exsiting forests. People get sick of the all the trees and no sun. They make a deal with everyone they can in the neighborhood and actually cleaned up well and would be welcomed back. As log values increase, and large stands of good size timber becomes more scarce urban logs will become more and more important a source for small sawmills. It certainly can be a good way to go. Just recently some friends of mine who live a block from the capital here in Lansing Michigan were approached by loggers going door to door offering $300 or so for each of their pretty good sized walnut yard trees. I'm sure they get some takers in the poor areas. They clean up everything and the people can actually grow stuff in their yards now that the walnuts are gone and not poisoning everything anymore!
There are more and more articles out there talking about how much urban material could be going into the sawmill market as urban sprawl has built up lots of old forest areas. They take skilled cutting, personal skills to deal with lots of people, and good follow up to make sure lawns are'nt torn up, and all the brush is taken care of.
I think this area of logging will be a growth area in the next 10 years, though i don't know too much. I've just seen a lot of the state timber stands here and they are pathetic little oak trees, about 12"-16" and people are fighting over the rights. People fly planes over the countryside looking at farmers woodlots and trying to find those looked over trees that haven't been cut in 50 years. I know my grandparents get a knock on the door every couple of years from some local nut job looking to screw them out of their big timber.
It seems like the logging of the future will be different. Specialized equipment, and smaller amounts of logs. Though the tree services here in lansing sure won't give up a single log. They know when they have something of value. The certainly don't give away veneer grade oaks when they find a stand and make a mint cutting them. They sure can drive their own truck full of logs to the local veneer buyer. Cherry, walnut, hard maple, and oak i would think they can sell on their own here. There would be lots of other lower grade variaties that would be available though.
KP
Here in Maine, I have been doing this for 4 years now. I have never paid more then firewood prices for any log off someones lawn or city street. You guys are crazy for paying more then that. Up here, most people (Tree Services) give them away. I will be honest thou, since the gas wars started, some of the companies do charge. Simply because so many people like myself are using the outdoor wood furnaces. It's quite simple really. If you know the mills in your area are not going to take the logs for fear of Metal, why pay tree companies more. Call their bluff. DO you your homework and check with the local mills/logyards. If they know they are comming from yards and curbside, 99.9 of 100 will not take them. Don't let them buffalo you. They'll take firewood prices. Besides, they have nothing to loose. The person having the tree removed has already paid to have it gone. You are actually saving the tree company money from having to pay to landfill them.
Quote from: Back40x2 on March 25, 2007, 10:41:46 PM
If you know the mills in your area are not going to take the logs for fear of Metal, why pay tree companies more. Call their bluff. DO you your homework and check with the local mills/logyards. If they know they are comming from yards and curbside, 99.9 of 100 will not take them. Don't let them buffalo you. They'll take firewood prices. Besides, they have nothing to loose. The person having the tree removed has already paid to have it gone. You are actually saving the tree company money from having to pay to landfill them.
Straight talk and very well said, specifically the "Don't let them buffalo you. They'll take firewood prices." part
A few years ago I signed a gas lease for our acreage. The gas company can run lines where they need too. So to keep the lines from running through my good woods unless absolutlely necessary I inserted into the lease some conditions. That any timber that had to be removed for the right of way would be valued by a consultant forester and I would be paid. In addition, I would get to cut all the trees and keep the wood in the right of way.
Furbyyou are right, the clearing company doesn't necessarily own the wood.
I just finished a conversation with a guy that is contemplating buying a mill and sawing urban wood for a living like I do. Just like I did when I was starting out, the guy has all kinds of missconceptions about how to go about getting wood. Firtst point I made to him was that you pay nothing for the wood whenever possible, there are a few exceptions to this rule, but 99.44% of the time you're providing payment enough just by removing a log. I hoped to impress upon him the costs associated with doing business and that the whole profit picture depends on getting the logs for free.
A lot of the power guys, (Consumers around here) lot clearing guys and tree service guys have bought outdoor wood burners. They'll set the tree out by the street and come back and get it for themselves for firewood. Giving away trees is going to get tighter every year.