We're all fans of food here, and my waist line proves it! ;D I'm just wondering what you guys think of genetically modified food. I just watched a documentary on the subject, called the Future of Food. It was pretty sobering, and I know some of you guys are farmers, so I was curious to find out what you might think.
My blood's still boiling over something that happened to a farmer up in Saskatchewan named Percy Schmeiser. >:( He and his wife have been farming canola in Saskatchewan for over 50 years. Over that time, he developed and saved canola seeds that succeeded in his corner of the world, each year building on the success of the previous year. Like the farmers in the millennia before him, each year he would save sufficient seedstock to replant in the next. One year in recent memory, he sprayed RoundUp around his telephone poles to keep the area clear. He noticed that much of the canola did not die, and he could only assume that somehow, genetically modified canola had found it's way into his seedstock. These plants were engineered to be "RoundUp Ready" by Monsanto. Word spread throughout the farming community, and Monsanto, maker of RoundUp, discovered the story.
They trespassed on his land to obtain samples and then sued Percy Schmeiser for patent violations, for growing their seed on his land without the required licensing fees. Percy never bought seed from Monsanto. Seed from area farmers who used RoundUp Ready canola blew onto his land, mixing in with his plantings. This meant nothing to Monsanto or to the Canadian Supreme Court. They ruled in the favor of Monsanto, establishing that the onus is on the family farmer to be sure that their fields are free from patented seed. How will this be possible when seeds are transported by wind, birds and animals? Monsanto and their brethren have attacked family farms like this all over the country. Most settle out of court, and pay a fee to Monsanto.
This disgusts me to no end.
I'm starting to think I don't like these guys. >:(
I have no problem with genetically modified seed. In general terms, it is produced naturally every day. I do think that the micro-surgery being done on seed to break the DNA chains and imbed a link that is foreign to the species should be controlled by a Government Organization that would over-see all such efforts, the same as we control medicines.
If that story of Percy Schmeiser is true as told, Canadians should be up in arms against a judicial system that would allow such a travesty, and not quit until the problem is rectified.
Monsanto, as big as it is, is not big enough to stand the ernest combativeness of an entire nation.
His claim it came in from the neighboring farmers fields is pretty hard to believe. I'm guessing Percy got caught replanting last years harvest of round-up ready seeds. Ocassionly someone around here gets nailed for it too only it's soybeans for us, corn's hybridized so you can't do it with it. Because the seed costs for round-up ready crops are so much higher than regular seed the temptation is there but it is illegal. Folks around here would side with Monsanto over the guy replanting harvested seed.
As for gmo seed it is about the most important advance in crops since hybridization. We used to spray corn with some really nasty pesticides before bt corn was introduced. Now that spraying has gone. Since they have introduced round-up ready corn it gets sprayed once at knee high and for the most part that's it. Before we were spraying twice and still running a tractor to cultivate the rows. Even then you'd see some guys spray with airplanes just to make sure they got them all. We have a very high cancer rate in the older farmers here, I can't help but believe it's from the amount and kind of chemicals they were exposed to.
I disagree with you and your neighbors on this one, Norm. Now if the guy was selling seed for others to plant, then Monsanto would have a legitimate gripe. But saving seed from your own crop should not be considered a patent violation. That's like Woodmizer forcing you to buy a new mill every year.
I'm not concerned about eating genetically modified foods. To me it is more of an environmental issue. I'm afraid a lot of invasive pest plants will be the result.
This is the contract you sign when you buy their seed and has been this way for long before gmo seed came around. There's no need to use it, you can buy plenty of seed that is not gmo and some varities are allowed to be replanted.
As for wm I'll bet if you start selling clones of their equipment you'll find they have some patent protections also. :D
According to this article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/genetics_modification/percyschmeiser.html)at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the five farmers who surround his farm all use RoundUp Ready seeds. His whole crop wasn't comprised of this, just parts of it. In the documentary, apparently one of the neighboring farmers acknowledged that on one occasion when he was hauling the seeds past Percy's fields, the tarp was loose, and the wind was whipping canola seed all over the road. It was first found in the ditch by the road, so I tend to believe the guy, and nature has a way of spreading seeds around.
The next step apparently is the development of a "suicide" gene that causes seeds to become sterile, which will force farmers to buy seeds from the company. They're testing this out already, and the gene is patented. I just get concerned wondering if a gene like that could cross pollinate, and I don't necessarily trust the government to be a good enough watchdog. Apparently, they are co-owners of the patent on that suicide gene. You can read about this mess at Discover Magazine online. (http://discovermagazine.com/2003/aug/featgenes)
We'd be screwdoodled if that thing crosspollinates.
You may have missed a point or two when ya read my post, Norm. If ol' Perc didn't buy the seed, there was no contract. If the seeds were accidentally introduced by someone other than himself, then he isn't liable, at least not in the US, assuming the Court actually follows the law. ::) As I said, the guy wasn't selling seeds, but using them to plant a new crop, just as he had done for years. Based soley on the info in Paschale's post, it appears that Monsanto has the court in its pocket.
In the Woodmizer analogy, I didn't say anything about selling sawmills. Would you have bought one if the contract stated that you had to melt it down after one year and buy another one?
I think we ought to get WM to sell us genetically altered black walnut and white oak seeds that grow to 24" DBH 100' tall, perfectly straight, all heart trees in 18 months; you get a free 5 lb bag of seeds with every 15 resharps. I would sign a contract like that. ;D
I have heard about Monsanto's strong arm tactics before, and it was not just in Canada, They do it right here in the good ol US of A.
I used to believe as you do Norm, but take a minute and read and think. Monsanto VS farmers (http://www.i-sis.org.uk/MonsantovsFarmers.php) . Even if you never planted the seed, they get you if some of your Non-engineered crop is germinated by some of the neighbors GE crop. As stated in the article, noone is allowed to talk about the cases or are subject to massive fines, all part of the settlement. Many farmers have lost their farms because of the blackmail litigation.
I myself have no problem with GE seed stock, but do worry that if they cannot control the germination of the RR and BT seed stock, how can we be assured that the next generation GE known as "terminator" seed will not infest the neighbors fields, rendering them non-viable seed?
You would have to talk to my sister about this, she knows all about the Percy Schmeiser case. I believe Percy's crop cross-pollinated with his neighbors and Monsanto accused him of stealing it on purpose. Monsanto is a company to be avoided. In the documentary you will find that there is a lot of hocup-pocus going on with top Monsanto execs flip-flopping between Monsanto and the government agencies that regulate Monsanto.
Dave
The guys around here selling non- GMO beans have a load rejected now and then, even though they planted all non gmo seed. Monsanto should not have had a problem believeing it could happen to canola accidentally. My question is whether or not Percy then worked to develop his own supply of roundup ready canola. If he worked to develop it, then I can see the problem. If some was just there, I can't see it. Most of us like Monsanto's products and research, and hate the company. ::)
So, if you found herbicide resistant plants on your farm, and you did not plant them, say they cross-pollinated from an adjoining farm, could you then sue Monsanto for contaminating your seeds?
WDH, I suppose you could, but I am sure they would countersue saying you stole their seeds in the first place.
I will try to get the name of the documentary from my sister.
Dave
Excuse me, but isn't it still incumbent on the plaintiff in a civil suit to PROVE that he has been damaged? If I were the Judge in this case(which I ain't), based on the information at hand, Monsanto would be paying a hefty settlement to the defendant, and their lawyers would be concerned about disbarment!
Infinite possibilities. A corporation can't control them. Neither can we. Pollen carries world wide. Hybrids be damned. Stuff happens. No one can completly control it. I didn't volunteer for this. Who voted me in? Who was my advocate? Who represented you?
In the early 70's we lost most of our corn crop to a fungus. It permeated the stalks, cobs and ears. The yields were pitiful. This fungus knocked out the corn crop for most of the south east US that year. We planted Indian corn the next year to avoid it. The ears rolled out of the corn picker in yellow, white, purple and calico. A very colorful harvest. Not the highest yields but reliable. It gave you the feeling of comfort to see it. The corn seemed to have a timeless character to it such that it could resist drought, pestulance, etc. It made me lose faith in the recent hybrid moniculture we had been planting. But now they want to take from us. They didn't even ask us.
IMHO, I see the ruling referred to in this post as being greedy, short-sighted, wreckless and immoral. What we had been using had centuries of result-oriented testing behind it. How long did they test this GMO stuff. How arrogant are we to think that we are that much smarter than our elders?
Quote from: treebucker on April 14, 2007, 09:52:59 PM
How arrogant are we to think that we are that much smarter than our elders?
How arrogant are we to think that we are that much smarter than our Maker?
Quote from: DanG on April 14, 2007, 10:00:38 PM
How arrogant are we to think that we are that much smarter than our Maker?
Sorry, that's what I should have said/wanted to say, but my arrogance (fear?) got in the way.
I have to reply here . Monsanto is a company to avoid like the plage . If you read Monsantos grower agreement it says that if they sue you for anything you will pay all leagal fees ,fines , court cost , and every other cost and damages. However if you the farmer wants to sue monsanto for any reason you will have to sue them in St.louis county court, If you by chance outspend their legal department and win you will only get no more than the purchase price of your seeds retuned .
Monsanto has a habit of going out to farmers fields ,trespassing , to spray a small spot with a bit of roundup on the crop. Then come back later to check , if it is still alive they start digging into records . Checking to see if you bought seed with roundup gene and going from there .
They are very demanding and Geshtapo like onndealing with the seed companies that purchace their gene event . These seed companies have to have reacords of every person that purchased seed from them the no. of bushels /bags /units .
I used to think that Round up beans would be a good thing . Then Monsanto wanted a tek fee ontop of the extra fees that they charged seed companies to install the gene into the seed they sold . All the while not charging the same fees to ferin countries.
Then there is the Aspertame thing where monsanto manipulated the testing to get the poison approved for human consumption.
I Now have a Monsanto free farm . During conversations with men who have worked for monsanto and left to work for other companies say they are very happy to not be employed at Monsanto any more.
My take on the railroading of that guy in Canada is just that he was railroaded by Monsanto . The pollen and seeds do blow around . Monsanto should be held responsable for contaminating the farmers seed . If you want to grow non GMO corn you have to be at least a half mile from any GM corn. Because of the pollen carry in the wind that somtimes is not enough.
I think that if you want to grow a non-GM crop, you should have the right to do so without contamination from an adjacent area. If you spray herbicide and it drifts into your neighbor, you are liable. If pollen drifts to a non-GM field, the pollen-er, not the pollen-ee should be liable. Hey, but that is just common sense. What good is common sense in a court of law ???.
Wow Paschale, you sure opened up a can of something here! ;D
I do remember when the rules were established to allow Monsanto and other biotech companies to patent a particular DNA sequence and obtain a patent on a genetically modified plant. There was and still is a tremendous amount of controversy over obtaining this type of patent on the DNA in a plant, animal, or even a human being. It was not only unpopular in the public, but in the scientific community and universities as well. However the biotech companies won with the argument that the tremendous scientific advances will not occur if the investment in research cannot be recouped with some type of protection on the results of their discoveries.
And unfortunately, they are absolutely right. I believe there will be many tremendous breakthroughs coming soon that are a direct result of this ruling. There may soon be a cure for diabetes and they are close to being able to grow new cartilage so you can repair your own knee joints, etc.
Also unfortunately, these companies feel they have to vigorously defend their rights, even in absurd cases like the Percy Schmeiser case. It is my understanding that in most of these cases of "illegal use" that the money is never the important factor in the settlement. I suspect in this case that little or no money actually changed hands and that is why no one is allowed to talk about the settlement. Percy was probably just brought up in the spotlight just for show. We'll never know the truth.
I have to admit that I did not believe these genetically modified seeds were going to make much difference. But I was wrong. I completely agree with Norm, the farmers previously had to use some very, very dangerous chemicals that were derived from nerve gas technology for weed and insect control. Those chemicals were not very effective at times, they were hazardous to the environment, as well as to the farmer and or applicator. For a short time I had a restricted use pesticide applicators license so I could purchase and apply these chemicals. But I decided it was not worth the risk and ever since I just hire my spraying done by the experts. Now there is none of that risk with the GMO seeds. 8)
I certainly do not like some of the tactics that Monsanto and other biotech companies use to protect their rights, but there is no way that I want to go back to those NOT so "good old days" with those hazardous pesticides, environmental concerns, and lower yields. ;D
I agree with you Gary_C that the technology will significantly improve the human existence. I believe in progress. I recently saw a presentation from a company that clones pine seeds for commercial forestry production. The company is Cellfor, and they are located in Atlanta, GA. Their results are mind boggling, and they have gone into commercial production producing millions of seedlings annually, moving up to 30 million or more seedlings in the next 18 months. The growth of these clones is phenomenal. One clonal variety will be commercially thinned at age 7 (research trial only).
The issue that I have is the big company running over the small independent guy. I hate to see anyone get picked on and taken advantage of. Stems from past experiences................
Well boys, genetically altered foodstuff bothers me no matter if it's agriculture or livestock. Sure, corporations will tell you it's safe because it's money in their pocket. It may be years before anyone can determine if it's safe or not. It also might be safe for humans but have a negative impact on the lifecycle of harmless wildlife (ie: butterflies). Sure, you can say that the people doing it are ex-spurts and scientist but remember ex-spurts and scientist brought Love Bugs to Florida.....Killer Bees to South America from Africa and ultmately to the U.S. and the list goes on and on. How about chemicals that were supposedly tested and safe that were found not to be safe later on. Thanks a bunch but I kinda wish they wouldn't tamper with the genetics in the lab.
Quote from: Don_Papenburg on April 14, 2007, 11:12:19 PM
Monsanto has a habit of going out to farmers fields ,trespassing , to spray a small spot with a bit of roundup on the crop. Then come back later to check . . . .
The solution here is bodybags. Someone needs to send these vermin back to Monsanto in them.
The only people making money out of ge is the big companies. The farmers are just working harder for less of the pie.
Stonebroke
But Kevjay, If you EVER in your lifetime bought ANY gm seed, you signed a lifetime contract that allows them total access to your farm and fields.
I agree RR seed is much easier to keep weed free. I am just afraid of what the future may bring when the wrong cross pollination starts happening and we have Roundup resistant weeds.
I have been out of farming for the last 5 years, but remember that when we were paying $40/gal for Roundup, Argentina was paying about $10. I don't believe for a minute that the testing required by USDA was THAT expensive. Monsanto has become a monster, in my opinion, and will eventually die due to litigation when the bad things start to happen that they said couldn't happen.
Weeds in some places have/are developing a natural resistance to Roundup. It's been and is being used too much.
So, what are you going to do when Monsanto finds "their" GMO corn in your cornfield?
Quote from: CHARLIE on April 15, 2007, 12:16:41 AM
Well boys, genetically altered foodstuff bothers me no matter if it's agriculture or livestock. Sure, corporations will tell you it's safe because it's money in their pocket. It may be years before anyone can determine if it's safe or not. It also might be safe for humans but have a negative impact on the lifecycle of harmless wildlife (ie: butterflies). Sure, you can say that the people doing it are ex-spurts and scientist but remember ex-spurts and scientist brought Love Bugs to Florida.....Killer Bees to South America from Africa and ultmately to the U.S. and the list goes on and on. How about chemicals that were supposedly tested and safe that were found not to be safe later on. Thanks a bunch but I kinda wish they wouldn't tamper with the genetics in the lab.
I have to side with Charlie.
Quote from: stonebroke on April 15, 2007, 07:16:38 AM
The only people making money out of ge is the big companies. The farmers are just working harder for less of the pie.
Stonebroke
Yes, and the cost of the genetic modification on the environment and health is not fully known. And the cost of this seed is set at an equivalent level to match what it would cost to apply chemicals to the crop. For the moment it looks good, because we are not spraying chemicals. Who knows about the long term.
When someone controls these genetic patents you can't grow and sell seed. And some companies are processors that modify seed like potatoes and if you want a contract with them you have to buy their seed. So think about that when your dealing with a monopoly. ;)
Tom , If that was directed at me , They will not find their corn on my farm as I will not buy any that has monsanto gene event. I have never signed any agreement with monsanto. I buy from small seed companies or from Syngenta based companies.
Don, I was referring to their thinking that they had the right to come on your farm and look for plants that had grown from their seed. It just seems to me that Monsanto has the idea that they own the farmers and the farms. If the government of Canada will let them inspect farms on their whim and sue and win with no apparently allowed defense, then I may be right.
The way I see it, they only "own" the right to be the one to make the seed for sale. What nature does is out of their baileywick. I think the farmers who choose to not use Monsanto's product, have every much a right to make Monsanto suffer for the tresspassing of their employees and their seed as Monsanto wants to think it has the right to control who grows it. I side with the farmer.
It is my understanding that you don't have to buy their seed to have it in your fields. That makes it a mighty tough world to live in.
Hear hear............
I am with Tom :).
Quote from: Norm on April 14, 2007, 12:11:02 PM
His claim it came in from the neighboring farmers fields is pretty hard to believe. I'm guessing Percy got caught replanting last years harvest of round-up ready seeds. Ocassionly someone around here gets nailed for it too only it's soybeans for us, corn's hybridized so you can't do it with it. Because the seed costs for round-up ready crops are so much higher than regular seed the temptation is there but it is illegal. Folks around here would side with Monsanto over the guy replanting harvested seed.
As for gmo seed it is about the most important advance in crops since hybridization. We used to spray corn with some really nasty pesticides before bt corn was introduced. Now that spraying has gone. Since they have introduced round-up ready corn it gets sprayed once at knee high and for the most part that's it. Before we were spraying twice and still running a tractor to cultivate the rows. Even then you'd see some guys spray with airplanes just to make sure they got them all. We have a very high cancer rate in the older farmers here, I can't help but believe it's from the amount and kind of chemicals they were exposed to.
Isn't most of that seed close pollinated? In which case saving seed is a moot point since it won't produce beans. I wouldn't know since cous buys all his seed every year and I never asked. And my brother plants all open pollinated stuff that isn't roundup ready.
As for GMO seed, Let's just say its not nice to fool with mother nature. If your smart don't mention GMO seed to my brother. You'll get an ear full about it
Schmieser is just one farmer who won't sit down and shut up.
He tours all over the world now, making speeches against Monsanto and their seed.
If you want to live healthy don't eat anything your Grandmother wouldn't recognize.
Schmeiser was growing Canola(rape), not beans. Apparently, the genetic modifications are passed along to successive generations. GM is not the same as hybridizing.
It's been 5 years since I made a crop (retired), but the seed (soybeans)was not a hybrid .......at that time...........in the sense that it wouldn't reproduce. It would. As far as signing something giving Monsanto or anyone else access to your farm/fields, I NEVER signed anything..........PERIOD; not even an agreement not to plant "saved" seed. It was definitely understood........by all the farmers........that we would not do so and would be sued if we did. The genetic modifications are passed along to successive generations. I was never tempted to save 'em, although I did have a neighbor who wanted me to just "leave a trailer full on the turn-row" which he would pick up and pay me for; wasn't tempted to do that, either. There were a couple of local farmers sued, but the details were not made public; more Monsanto making a statement, rather than collecting big bucks. They were caught by someone turning them in and the seed then checked at the elevator when they were sold.
Around "here", most farmers would buy enough new seed to plant 5-10% of their acreage each year and would save enough of that to plant 90-95% of next years crop. From seed that was in the "public domain", not the RR varieties. That all changed when the RR became available. There were 2 seed cleaners locally (both also ran elevators); they're both out of business.
Tom I gotya now . If I happen to find a monsanto rep, employee , agent ,or goon on my farm I will not be very kind to them . I read one of the tags on the bag of soybeans . It said that you had no right to plant the seed that you bought without asking Monsanto for permission to do so. That initself chaps my britches . Why do they sell the seed if they do not want the purchaser to plant it . Just the act of putting a seed up for sale implies that you expect the purchaser to plant it.
We think we are so smart. But we are not. If this geenetically modded food/seed/whatever is so good, Im thinkin,God/nature wudda thought it up along time ago. It was smart people like these Monsanto folks that came up with Thalidimide and even nuclear fusion. Stuff we could do with out. I think before I die(im 52) we are gonna pay for this Genetically Modded crap. Somthing is gonna go wild that we cant stop.
Its a greed based concept the way its being used right now. If they were usin this to help the starving, I might be more compassionate toward it but the way its run now.....not my cup of tea. >:( >:(