some of us are never quite satisfied ::)
after seeing how FAST the supers operate the loader and clamp, i'd like to know what it takes to make mine that fast.
I know the super has two pumps and larger hoses.
how are the pumps plumbed (series or parallel)
what size are the super's lines?
Can the alternater on a G25 handle the extra pump load?
I can live with the speed of the engine, but i get bored waiting on the hydraulics!
There are quite a few other changes involved to upgrade the one pump on a standard HD to two pumps on the Super.
You first question – the pumps are hooked up in parallel. They just "T" in together – hydraulically.
Most of the Super lines are 3/8". I suspect they are the same lines as used on the standard HD mills.
The two pumps require a big honkin' battery and a higher amp alternator to charge it. It also requires heavier cables from the contact strip to the battery and contact strip to the pumps to carry the heavier amp load. There are two solenoids to kick the pumps on. I think the line fuses for the pumps are a total of 450 amps. That's a bunch! :o
Best way to upgrade is to trade up to a new Super. You know as soon as the HD is faster, you'll want the head travel faster, and then you'll want to saw faster.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/wspumpout200604.JPG)
I just went out and pulled the pumps an solenoids on our mill so I could take a better picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/wsnewpump200604.JPG)
'Corse, if you really have a need for speed, just patch in a power pack. 6 gpm @2000 psi really gets things moving.
ok. so the super doesn't have 2 reservoirs?
the hoses on a standard hydraulic are 1/4, I believe.
yeah, i know I'll want more, but i figure that if I can speed up the hydraulics substantially for about $1,000, I might be happy for a few weeks...
Quote from: Dan_Shade on May 10, 2007, 08:23:18 PM
ok. so the super doesn't have 2 reservoirs?
the hoses on a standard hydraulic are 1/4, I believe.
yeah, i know I'll want more, but i figure that if I can speed up the hydraulics substantially for about $1,000, I might be happy for a few weeks...
Yea, the Super has twin pump/reservoir units. They are the same unit. As I look at the picture above, I see that the white filter blocks out most of the view of the tank of the pump unit on the back side. You can still make out the fill cap on the back unit.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12431/SM%20upgrades%2004ff13%25.JPG)
Woodbowl added hydraulics to his manual LT40 and then doubled his pleasure, doubled his fun by adding a second pump unit. You may want to check with him and see what he ran into on the conversion.
Here is a link to his post in "Useful Sawmill Mods".
Woodbowl's "double pumper" (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg269818#msg269818)
ahhh
so how big's the alternator need to be?
i see 2 pumps, 2 solenoids, a bigger alternator, and larger hoses between me and faster hydraulics.
is there room for an auxiliary battery in the box if 2 pumps are in there? however, a battery in there sort of scares me, due to explosion potential (batteries release hydrogen gas while being charged, and a spark can explode that gas).
I think a lot depends on how old your mill is. I know the older HD mills had a box made for one pump and valve unit. There wouldn't be enough room for a second pump in the older mills. And I'm not sure about the box size on the newer standard HDs. Maybe the newer ones all have the same box as the Supers.
In any case, the two pumps, valve body, filter and the little break battery that's in there pretty much fills it up. There would be no room for a second battery.
Alternator size? I'm not sure - maybe 160 or 180 amps. They are special alternators you know. Does your mill have an external alternator now?
I'll bet you're ok on the hose size.
What year is your mill?
my mill's an '04 I'm pretty sure the hydraulic boxes are the same.
hose size will impact the flow rate, I figure, larger hose will allow more oil to move to the cylinders.
It looks like my alternator is 105A.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on May 10, 2007, 09:58:48 PM
my mill's an '04 I'm pretty sure the hydraulic boxes are the same.
hose size will impact the flow rate, I figure, larger hose will allow more oil to move to the cylinders.
It looks like my alternator is 105A.
You can look in your manual and there should be a page with hose lengths and sizes. We can compare. When I had the pump unit built for our Super, the guy designing the unit was not concerned with the hose size. I still bet you're ok with the size you have.
If you take the top off your pump box and there is enough room to put another pump beside it, then the newer mills have the same pump box as the Super.
Mary and I are going down to St. Charles in the AM to the Mid-West Forestry Show. I'll be able to look at a Super and standard HD side by side. Maybe I'll take a 9/16" boxed end wrench along and pop the top while they're not looking. We won't be back until Saturday evening.
You will need heaver or double cables and heavier fuses and solenoids.
If you weren't upgrading the feed motors I don't think you would need a bigger Alternator. The reason is that it is still doing the same work just doing it quicker. So adding a second battery on a tray next to the hydraulics box to help with the increased load would do the trick. 105 amps is an awful lot of juice when you get down to it. What does a second pump cost anyway, does anyone know? I'll look at that other thread and see if it answers that question. Joe
I looked up the parts on my WM Customer Gateway connection for our 2002 LT40 Super. The pump/motor/tank assembly would run around $450.00. The hose fittings coming in and out out of the pump are 3/8". I looked at the hose chart and there are a mixture of 3/8" and 1/4".
The cable size to the battery is 1gage.
I don't think you'd need two batteries. Just a heavier duty (deaper amp draw) than the one you have. I think the one on our Super is something like over 1000 amp draw. The heavier duty battery may not be phisicaly any bigger than the one you have now and would likely fit in the same battery box you have.
May work well, Bibby, but if he adds the second battery then he can use the hydraulics when the carriage is away from the power strip. I find I need to use it often.
this is the pump assembly listed for mine:
Pump Assy, W/Motor Hyd 1 P12701 $465.15
that's what I was thinking in addition, logwalker.
Dan, my mill has the dual hydraulic pumps, from a super, but only a 25 horse onan.
The 60 amp alternator it came with burnt out, and the 105 amp alt. I replaced it with went soon after. The second unit was one I got at the parts store, locally, as I needed it right away. I replaced it with one from WM, who also suggested I try disconnecting one of the pumps, which I did. I have not had any problems since, but ya, it is noticably slower. It still runs the chain turner, though, which I was worried might be an issue.
I thought about trying a bigger alternator, but apparently, that requires some modifications, and I was not confident my engine would be strong enough for it.
Providing a second battery could help this a bit, the pair wouldn't be as deeply discharged so your alternator wouldn't be as heavily loaded when it hits the contact strip. It would take longer to get a full charge of course.
Woodbeard,
I put a hotter alternator on my 1990 LT40 and it went out fairly quickly. I had it rebuilt and also put in a bigger battery. One or the other fixed the problem. The 24 Horse Onan had no trouble pulling the alternator.
Alternators on WoodMizer Hydraulic mills take a real beating. They and the battery should be considered fairly frequent maintenance items.
One mode of operation that will help is to leave the engine running all of the time. I've noticed that a lot of operators, me included in the beginning, would shut the engine off at every opportunity. I used to think of wasting gasoline or wear on the engine as being avoided. I also wanted it quiet while we were moving logs or discussing our plans.
I found out that the mill needs those non-sawing operating times to recharge. Once I began leaving the mill running, accept for dinner or fuel, I had fewer electrical problems.
We just got back from the Forestry Show in St. Charles where I was able to take to one of the WM service guys from Georgia. It looks like the operation should be a bolt on change out. The box on the newer mills are the same on both mills with the holes already there for the second pump unit.
He did mention on other item that would need to change – that is the hydraulic fuse elements that are at the bottom of the cylinders on the loading arms.
And some of the hydraulic hoses are bigger (3/8" vs. 1/4") on the Super.
We didn't talk about the electrical part. But he did say that if you call Wood-Mizer parts, they could fix you up with all the parts you needed.
I called woodmizer today, I ordered a parts list for a super so that I can dig through and figure out what the subtle differences are. depending on cost, I may go for this mod, but i'm slightly concerned of having to swap it all back to standard if I ever sell the mill, though I'm not sure that I'd have to do that :)
Looks like Bibby has most of the parts ya need already! ;)
i don't know that he'd want to part with those larger hoses.....
:)
Hello Bibbyman
I have an LT40 HDD and a twin blade edger. I cut full time. I'm interested in how you patched in the hydraulic power pack. I work almost entirely from a fixed site and could hook up a single or 3 phase power pack- That way I would imagine I would only be making minor mods to the LT40 and should I upgrade I could keep the power pack. Any advice you have would be very much appreciated.
Regards
AusLJW
Dan, I have a manual LT40 that I have added hydraulics to. I just added the loader last week and love it but it is slow. I was thinking of doing the double pump setup also. Please keep this thread up to date for those of us thinking of doing the same thing. I am going to buy a two plane clamp assembly from woodmizer to replace the home made one on my mill as I think by the time I redo one myself and buy the parts it would be better to just buy theirs. My pump assembly is a Haldex brand that came from Graingers for about $300. Pump specs are the same as woodmizer. You may want to check out that route for your second pump. I know from talking to sparks that you will have to upgrade the circuit breakers to 450 amp. Sparks helped me out tremendously when I added the power strip and some other parts for my mill, I'm sure he would be glad to answer any of your questions. Good luck and keep us posted.
I'll keep everyone updated with what I do. The customer service rep seemed a little "less than enthusiastic" at first, but came around a little bit. He basically told me it would be "unsupported", but I already knew that, and besides, the mill is out of that warranty anyways.
Quote from: AusLJW on September 05, 2007, 06:49:29 AM
Hello Bibbyman
I have an LT40 HDD and a twin blade edger. I cut full time. I'm interested in how you patched in the hydraulic power pack. I work almost entirely from a fixed site and could hook up a single or 3 phase power pack- That way I would imagine I would only be making minor mods to the LT40 and should I upgrade I could keep the power pack. Any advice you have would be very much appreciated.
Regards
AusLJW
Here is a link to the "Useful Sawmill Mods" thread where a lot of info and pictures are posted about the power pack I installed.
Useful Sawmill Mods - hydraulic power pack upgrade (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7789.msg269802#msg269802)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/wsbaterychange200604e.JPG)
Here is a look inside my HD box. As you can see I took out the WM pumps and used the box for my battery. I ran the pressure and return lines into the box through the hole in the bottom and connected them to the lines going to the valve body. But you wouldn't have to. All you need to do is to disconnect the pressure and return lines from the pumps and connect the lines from the power pack. You could use quick connectors and that way you could still use your DC pumps as backup or when sawing mobile. I didn't.
To keep the WM pumps from running, disconnect the one little wire that comes from the micro switch to the solenoid(s) that kick on the pump(s).
Ditto on the note about the Grainger pump. I think the slow up and down speed bothers me more than anything. Faster hydraulics would be nice though.
[1] You will need to replace you battery with either a NAPA NBR7237 or NBR7236, Carquest 31HDP30, Interstate 31P-MHD, Deka 1231MF or1231MP. The standard battery does not have large enough plates to handle the extra load of the second pump.
[2] You will need a 140 amp alternator as well as changing the charging wiring. Right now you have a wire that goes from the alternator to the starter, from the starter to the Bat terminal of the key, from the Bat terminal of the key to the fuse. You will need to add a 6ga wire from the alternator to the fuse. The wiring on the standard mill can not handle the load.
[3] You will have to add a second fuse on top of the 225 amp fuse already there. It takes 2 335amp fuses to run both pumps.
[4] You will have to add a second solenoid and wire them properly.
[5] You will need to add a different contact strip that has 2 cables unless you can add the second cable and keep good connection.
I have included diagrams for you to view. Thanks
Sorry, the 2 hose list are to show you what hoses need to be changed and I included a hose diagram. Thanks
Thanks, Sparks. You lost me on the alternator wiring bit. Would I need to replace the wire from the altenator to the key switch? or just run it straight to the fuse.
I'm going to have to look at the schematics that I have of the setup on the LT40.
I realize the problem with these projects is the little stuff will nickel and dime you, so I want to get all of that straight prior to pulling the trigger.
I figured that the larger alternator would more be necessary for the larger drive motors of a super, not the pump, but those 12V motors pull a lot of current any way you look at it.
You will have to run a 6ga wire from the alternator to the fuse. That way the circuit can handle the load to the alternator. Thanks
Looks like Wood-Mizer needs to bundle up an upgrade kit with instructions. smiley_headscratch
Call it the Wood-Mizer Double Pumper!
it probably would sell :)
Dan,
Just ask yourself how long it will be until you like the feed speed of the super? Why do you think you have my ole' mill :D :D
Then of course, there is the cutting power of the diesel!!! Whats the point of loading the logs faster if it still takes you longer to cut through them. Of course, that said, this from a guy that is either downgrading or getting out of the biz altogether. But it is something to consider.
You have to consider the cost vs production too.. Will spending the 1k on upgrades really make production much faster? Probably, but how much? Of course, your like me and just like the idea that you probably can do it... ;)
Dave
I know what you mean. I am trying to get it all preplanned out, so that I can figure out exactly what I want to do, and if it makes sense financially to go for it.
It may well make more sense to bite the bullet and find a deal on a super, but I've made up my mind that I need to be showing profits before I go that far, and preferably have paid off this mill. maybe I should hold off and see if I win that 25th anniversary mill :)
are the 3/8 and 1/4 hose fittings interchangeable? it looks like it would be around $350 or so for hoses through woodmizer + the pump + all the electrical stuff. i'm guessing the whole outfit will be over $1000 if the alternator is upgraded.
That is a real good point Dave.
Cause when I think about it, I'm spending time studying a log while I'm loading, clamping and turning so really, if I couldn't put the blade through the wood faster, I don't think the few seconds moving the log would up my productivity any.
Now faster up and down speeds, and being able to work the hydraulics at at point on the rail would definitely speed up the old LT 40.. 8)
Not trying to highjack this thread, but just putting thoughts out there. When it comes to spending money these days, you gotta be careful.
I'm walking through the archives again, and came across this old thread.
I must be getting better with my hydraulics handling, because they sometimes they feel slow to me now. And I've seen all that empty space in my hydraulics box, so wheels in my head have been slowly turning. I'll probably find more information in the archives as I continue to walk forward through time, but I didn't want to lose this thread, so I'm bumping it up.
So, Dan, you spent a lot of time looking into this back in 2007, did you ever pull the trigger? If so, how did it work out? If not, why not?
All other information and opinions on this topic are welcome as well.
Thanks,
Peter
I didn't do it.
The main reason I didn't is the electrical system on a LT40 Hydraulic is not rated as high as the one on a superhydraulic. The super has a larger battery, and a higher rated alternator. It would have cost me several thousand to do it, and possibly could impact resale value of the mill.
I determined it would be a better idea to buy a larger mill and get the rest of the advantages of a super over a hydraulic mill.
I am thinking of doing the upgrades but including the ligt and feed motors as well. The faster hydraulics will be good but i rarely use my loader arms. I have a couple a pieces of 12 foot cedar power poles I take with me that I use for a roll way. I really dont think there is a mod capable of beating the roll way for loading time. Cuts down FEL time too cause I only have to load the roll way once or twice a day depending on the timber. I have had up to 15, 12 foot logs on at the same time smallest was about 20 inch small end. average about 26 inch. I saw over size logs from the Weyerhaeuser mill so I dont see to much small stuff