Does anybody know what the results were of the shootout at sawlex??
They'll probably publish them in the Sawmill and Woodlot magazine next issue.
is there a sworn secrecy to the shootout spectators?
i was wondering about that the other day.
To my knowledge, there was no announcement made at the show, Dan. The "competition" is so complicated that just watching doesn't give much of an idea who might have won. Speed can be seen, but the grading of the lumber and penalties are kept in books.
Hey Tom,
Was Mobile Demension at the show?
Quote from: Tom on May 26, 2007, 11:42:08 PM
To my knowledge, there was no announcement made at the show, Dan. The "competition" is so complicated that just watching doesn't give much of an idea who might have won. Speed can be seen, but the grading of the lumber and penalties are kept in books.
Thats why Im not a real big fan of the shootouts. I sawed in one a couple years ago with Dad on a LT27 in Bangor. There was a claimed "overall winner" based on speed, but there are many other variables they didnt take into account...
Personally, I think the setup time should be included in the "portable" sawmill shootout, start with the mills hooked to the trucks...
No, there were no Mobile Dimensions. There was a Select though. And, Timber Harvester was there, they just didn't join in the shootout.
even that is misleading. someone who has good experience will outperform most people who are in the market for a new saw (first time buyer).
Somebody who really knows what they are doing, meaning no miscuts and speedy setup can probably outsaw a newbie, even if it's an LT15 Vs a LT40HDG28.
even the chainsaw mills can put some crazy numbers down, but let most mere mortals try that :)
The good thing about the Shootout is that it is a "for fun" competition. It's purpose has evolved into being an opportunity for sawyers and new customers to see a mill being used. There is some pressure involved but the manufacturers know that there is more involved than speed. It does make for a fun show though.
Yes, there are some bragging rights that go along with winning it. As the industry develops, you find that the manufacturers, customers and producers of the show all know each other and it's more like a 4th of July Picnic and the Thee Legged Race.
We all know that a handful of logs will be cut differently and at a different speed when you pit a 65 horse double-edged bandsaw and three people against a swingsaw and a husband and wife team. Still, each has its supporters and it's fun to cheer them on.
The joy is to see the camaraderie and friendships develop. The reality is to see the mills do what they've been designed to do.
I never cared much for the idea of having a competition were there is no winner. It's a philosophy that many are trying to impose on youth sports today and it takes the fun out of it. So, when you win the Shootout, you really won a competition and you can see it in the faces of the competitors. It just doesn't necessarily mean that one mill is better than the other because of it. Each has its spot. You find that the biggest fear is that their mill won't work. While winning doesn't necessarily make them the best, not being able to compete is a black eye.
It's like watching a marathon. There are some who finish within a certain time frame and take home the gold. Then there are some who just finish. They get cheered too, even though it might be hours after the finishers have left. :)
Well said as usual, Tom ;)
You should have seen some of the WM boys down there, they were almost messing their pants they were so nervous :D. They didnt have anyone lined up at that time to run the LT27 and a couple guys lay awake all night thinking they would have to saw with it (not too many of them run a mill very often, and the idea of doing it in front of hundreds scared the heck out of em ;D). We showed up the night before and were like "Uh... sure, well run it, why not?". They thought we were crazy with the 1½" .045 13° blades too, but we did quite respectable in the whole deal. Ill have to ask Dad if he remembers what our figures were...
I am going to make a stretch here. The shootout is kinda like the show American Idol. There is a big group of 24 that make it to the big dance. But you get down to the final 12 quick. Now everyone gets to watch all of them perform and the weakest become pretty obvious. Eventually you get to a winner. But along the way we viewers have a great time deciding who we like best. Many of us like someone other than the final one. Those that didn't win still get many good deals and we the viewers will end up buying some of their CDs.
We get to watch a great competition. Sometimes the contestants forget their lines, and sometimes sawmills don't work properly. But in the end we all enjoy the show.
The winner has bragging rights for this year and next year we get to do it all over again.
That's it in a nutshell. Plain and simple. That is how I saw it firsthand. Don
I was just wondering if there was a D&L mill at the sawlex show.
I wish I could have gone down to the show. I could not get the time off work.
Did any one get to watch the SELECT mill run. I really wanted to go see it in the flesh.
I have been paying attention to the thread about why not build a cilcle mill. It is good reading. I have never run a big circle mill but I have spent some time in the booth with a professional sawyer at one of the local big mills and can see how much lumber goes through the saw in very little time. It is impressive.
I watched the Select work. It's a heck of a saw but it would either take a bunch of off-bearers or a new Drag-back or board removal system needs to be invented. It saws both ways, but the only way to get the boards off is to the side.
There were no double bladed sawmills there.
I had planned on going just to see the shootout and talk to manufacturers and users about the mills- nothing like seeing them up close and in use to help decide which one to invest the next few years "extra" money in...
Biggest problem I had was that entries were scattered among the various mills- not all the ones I'm considering were even there, let alone competing. Wish there was one event a year where ALL the major bandmill suppliers competed on some kind of level playing field (yeah, how?) or at least extended demos that we all could get some useful information out of. Testimonials and slanted websites don't make it and I really don't want to spend the next 5-6 weekends visiting sawyers all over the south to see how their mill works- problem there is too much diversity: can't compare performance and opinions of someone who saws once a month with others using theirs everyday.
I know, a lot of you are going to say, "Just go orange." Well, I've got one ('86 LT30) but that doesn't mean it's the best out there NOW. Value is defined by one of my business friends as performance over cost- tough equation to evaluate.
Ok, enough whinin'- need to buy something to go in my pole barn extension made just for something that can cut over 20'...
Lon
You have proposed yourself quite a dilemma.
We all go through that when shopping for a mill. It's especially confounding when you will be living with your purchase for a long time.
You should have made it to the Shootout, if you didn't. Whether it's all the mills or not, it gives you insight on those present. You're right that there are almost too many variables. We, the sawyers, impose most of them, as you suggest. Some saw a lot, some saw little. Some saw in the pot.... uh... that's something else. Some saw little stuff, some saw big stuff... It 's kind of difficult to find a good and honest equivalent to what each of us do. That is why the Forestry Forum is so important to us. It gives us an opportunity to communicate with others who do the same as we do.
Also, when it comes to schedules, it's good to remember that some of the high volume operators have gone through the same experiences as the low volume operators are going through now. It's also important to recognize that not all of the low volume operators care to be large volume operators. A lot of the smaller mills are support equipment to other endeavors.
The Best way to shop is to visit shows with knowledge you gain from the websites. My Favorite local show is Moultrie, Georgia's Sunbelt Agricultural Expo. Other areas of the country have larger shows too and you find out about them on the Forestry Forum. Look in Shows and places to meet, sponsors topics at the bottom of the forum as well as the Sawing and General Topics.
Just going Orange isn't a bad idea. There are two very good manufacturers who paint their mills Orange. Going Red can get you a good mill and the backing of a good company as well as buying one that is Blue. I've had some of the most aggravating times with all three. There have been times when I would go to bed and say "I'm never going to buy anything from them again, ever". Then there are times when I don't know how I would ever get along without them. So, I can tell you about Bad times that will curl your hair and follow up with some good time stories that will have you inviting them home for supper. A lot of our experiences depend on the age of the product, the age of the company, the salesman, the customer service rep, the prices of parts, mean time to failure, as well as whether the mill does the work.
All of us have trouble comparing performance. It means comparing different uses and different support equipment and different products and different species of woods as well as simple determining factors like operator age and the ultimate goals of your "company". Your friend's equation, performance over cost, is too simplistic. It's the kind of determination an accountant behind a desk would make. You'll find truer and more complicated equations in the field by users and operators.
The best immediate advice I can offer is for you to do just what you are attempting to do. Talking with sawyers, not just owners, in a forum will give you a lot of insight. Visiting shows will provide the rest, if you don't limit yourself to the information. It's important to pay attention to the people you will be doing business with and ask yourself, "will they be there when I need them"?
The people who don't show up at the shows might make a good machine too, but, will they be there when you need them? There are a lot of things to be said about a company whether they be "hard sell" or "soft sell", whether they be present or whether you need to chase them down.
Keep in mind, also, that most of the folks in this society aren't out to publicly bash manufacturers in the media. When you find someone with whom you enjoy talking and think they may be doing what you want to do, take the conversation to the Instant Message system and ask some point blank questions. Most who feel that you wouldn't belay a confidence will open up with their sincere feelings. You have to play the game though. Making their confidences public may cut you off from the rest of the society.
As far as visiting other sawyers, you might find it a very pleasurable experience. Most would welcome you with open arms and you will widen your horizons in more ways than just sawmill purchase with the trips.
I look at my business as 3 distinct things I need to be concerned with. Raw material acqusition, processing, marketing.
Marketing usually comes first, unless you have the raw material growing on your property and you wish to process that. So your raw material and what it needs to be made into will dictate your production processes. This should narrow down the different mills out there into a managable quantity.
Pick those mills that best meet your production needs. Now is the time to seek out those mill owners and have a visit and a heart to heart talk. Tell them what you want to do and they should have some good opinions.
You may never pick the perfect mill, but remember, the enemy of good is better.
The old line down the middle of the page will help sort out too.
The thing I get from going to shows like the shoot out is seeing old friends and making new ones. Then I get to walk around to all the different mills and see if there is a better way to do the same thing that I am doing with more production or less work I will take one or both of these.
Tom I spent some time in the tent of those boys with that select mill and they have a green chain that sets to the side of the mill that would be in the same spot as there deck was.
Part of the reason that the shootout changed from a competition to more of a demonstration is that there are just too many variables. Imagine trying to decide on a pair of running shoes by watcing a 100-yard dash where runners range in age from 8 to 80, some trained athletes, others hopelessly out of shape, each running a different course, ranging from smooth pavement to cross-country! In spite of our best efforts, there is too much variation in the logs, sawyers, and the mills themselves to make a good comparison. Besides, if you are in it for the long haul (a marathon), does the sprint give you the information you need?
The Peterson mill hit metal on the first log or two and shelled out half the teeth on their swing blade, but kept on going, because that's how they'd do it in the woods. The Select mill also hit something (probably a stone imbedded in the bark) which did a real number on their double-cut band blade. Of course all of this (and more) will come out in the Sawmill & Woodlot magazine. On day 2, the Lucas mill was run by a single sawyer. We'd love to get more mills involved, but sometimes the competetive aspect backfires. The TimberHarvester representative told me that they had won the shootout (I think it was about 5 years ago), and made their point, so they saw no reason to go again!
The Shoot-out provides some great information, but Tom is right. Post a question on the Forum & contact sawyers in your area. I really enjoy showing off my mill, with the modifications I made to it, and would give anyone an honest assessment of it. No worries about competition-- too much wood to cut! As Shoot-Out announcer, I got to see the mills up-close & personal. The fact that the manufacturers put their machines out there says a lot about those mills, and every one did its job extremely well!
dboyt
Welcome to the forum. You know a lot about the shootout. Would you introduce yourself to the forum?
Or did I miss that intro somewhere along the line ??? :) Where ya from?
Thanks for some of the insight on the shootout. I like the idea it is more of a demo, not a head-to-head competition. All the mills will saw, but no way to get logs that are equal to each other (i.e. all without nails ).
That is what I always thought, better to be more of an evenly done comparison than a competition with a winner (there could be several depending on why they "won"). It just kinda burns when a manufacturer takes one statistic from their outcome and says "There, we won!!!" because there are still so many variables...
All in all, it is the best, widest-ranging comparison of portable sawmills out there...
Winning is winning in business. Everytime I race myself I declare me the winner.
That's why you gotta be a little skeptical.