I used to not like them very much. I have some cool old tools for sharpening them, that was my problem...dull saws. I made a little one minute video to have on my website, I thought maybe some handsaw guys/gals here might like this. I didn't know if many have ever seen one of these? It is an old Foley Belsaw retoother, it stomps the old teeth off and cuts new ones. A guy brought a very old saw over, it had great steel but was dull. He also wanted a different size tooth cut. It was a 12 tpi and he wanted 8 tpi, no problemo ;D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkeLXXwxRek
The machine normally sets on the bench, but trying to video it I set the retoother on the floor and the camera on the bench. I don't know, I think it is cool. I like playing with my toys, er tools. Not many people want their saws retoothed, so I do not get to play with it much. I sharpen alot of them, but really that is kinda boring, it is cool to know when you do a good job but still boring. I like the old retoother. If it ever breaks (doubt it) I will probably not buy another unless I can get one real cheap, they are way too expensive new for no more than I use it.
Old saw new teeth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/saw.jpg)
WOW Darren! I had never seen one of these before. Any chance of getting a close up of the working parts of it?
There used to be a couple of places locally where people could take saws of any kind to have them sharpened or worked on. I dont know of any of those places that are left. Tools like the one you have there are really interesting to me.
Thanks for sharing!
Quote from: getoverit on October 23, 2007, 08:05:58 PM
Any chance of getting a close up of the working parts of it?
Sure. The "carrier bars" have a step and pawl system that pushes the saw through the right distance between cutter strikes. Every time the wheel turns the saw moves and the cutter comes down on the shear plate for the next tooth. I just change the little rail on the back of the carrier for the desired tpi. I think machine is older than I am.
how easily can you turn a crosscut saw into a rip saw, Daren?
Quote from: Dan_Shade on October 23, 2007, 08:36:15 PM
how easily can you turn a crosscut saw into a rip saw, Daren?
Just as easy as the video and explanation says. Chop new teeth, throw the right set in and file accordingly. The retoothing is the easy part. I have an auto setter, but don't use it much. It takes more time to set by hand (alot on many tpi) but I can be more accurate by hand. The filing is all in the angle after the set. I even do "custom sharps" for unusual uses and the same with the set. I made a pull saw for myself out of a broken bandmill blade for dowel cutting with the retoother and my files.
That is cool! Handsaws have gotten a bad rep, in my opinion, due to everyone trying to use some old hunk a junk that's been laying around forever. A properly tuned saw, much like a hand plane, is a pleasure to use. Todays Japanese style teeth are also very good, almost like cheating. :D
Dave
Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 23, 2007, 10:14:42 PM
Handsaws have gotten a bad rep, in my opinion, due to everyone trying to use some old hunk a junk that's been laying around forever.
Guilty, before I knew what a
sharp handsaw was I thought they were obsolete. I had a pile of old dull saws that were nothing but work, yuck, grab the power saw. Now I have a new appreciation of them (and like you mentioned, hand planes, I even started building some)
My uncle used to buy the good rusty saws at auctions all the time . He had well over a hundred when he died .all of them as shiney and sharper than new.
Quote from: getoverit on October 23, 2007, 08:05:58 PM
Any chance of getting a close up of the working parts of it?
Here they are. The motor drives a heavy cast iron wheel, the wheel keeps the inertia to move the saw and punch the teeth (I assume ::))
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/retoother4.jpg)
The saws go in a carrier that rides along some rollers. For different tpi, there are different ratchet bars like in the picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/retoother1.jpg)
The carrier and ratchet bar in the machine (no saw) You can see the little post sticking out of the front. That moves up and down with the striker as well as catches a lever that is connected to a thinky that pushes on the ratchet bar to advance the saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/rethoother3.jpg)
Here is that thingy that moves the carrier close up (I need a new spring, the spring keeps it in the groove of the ratchet bar, it is kinda jury rigged right now)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/retoother2.jpg)
This is the part that cuts the teeth. Just a stamp and die, chops them right off and new ones on.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/retoother5.jpg)
Guess I'm older than some of you, I remember seeing my dad's saws re toothed on one of those :D. He only bought high quality saws like Henry Disstons and set and sharpened them himself. They were a pleasure to use.
neat machine!
Thanks for going to the trouble of taking the detailed pics Darren. I love looking at old stuff like this and seeing how it works.
Quote from: getoverit on October 24, 2007, 04:35:14 PM
Thanks for going to the trouble of taking the detailed pics Darren.
No problem. The retoother was only part of the deal this is what it looked like when I got it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/old%20saw.jpg)
The picture on my first post it the blade after I cleaned the rust off. Here is a small part of a big chart that hangs in my shop. I don't reference it anymore, but it is big and looks cool (all professional...cause it says "Professional Sharpening" on it :D)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/sawchart.jpg)
The last picture is a shot of the teeth after they are set and sharpened. Kinda hard to get any detail having to optimize to fit here. If you can see fuzz on some of the teeth...that is leather. I lightly ran my glove down the saw, it cut a hole in the thumb of my glove. It is sharp :o.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/teeth.jpg)
My Dad use to run these machines. I remember him being very precise and taking a lot of time setting and adjusting everything. The end result was well sharpened and properly set saws.
the picture is just fine. Good job. :)
Good find Daren. Once upon a time, another contractor and I went in together and picked up a Foley Belsaw saw sharpening set up, which included the 'tooth knocker'. ;D
Our idea was feasible, though the time involved with it got old. We were using it to sharpen our own circular saw blades and handsaws, and help our cause by taking care of other contractor's blades. Fine thing, if sleeping wasn't on the agenda from time to time. :D
Thanks Daren for taking time to post this ... really cool . Too bad you aint any closer I would gladly seend a few saws your way for a sharpening .
I like the pics . 8)
I appreciate this thread to. I use a hand saw often enough, but not a lot. I think you can get a special triangle shaped file to sharpen the teeth, I just never looked for one or sharpened my saw. It's still shiny new. ;D Trouble with most old saws are the user sometimes drops it where it was used last. Never finds it again for a long time and the handle is about rotten as well as the blade being all pitted with rust. I can say that for about every saw my father and brother had their hands on. ::)
In the meantime, I was guilty of leaving my pruning saw in an apple crotch about 20 years ago. I just found it 6 years ago when I cleaned out my orchard and there the saw was hanging there with no handle. ::) :'(
This is all fascinating to me Darren. I like to sharpen my own stuff, be it knives, blades or whatever. I have tried handsaws but never really got it right. They were better than when I started but not right. Any chance of a tutorial on shapening handsaws?
Quote from: LeeB on November 01, 2007, 06:38:26 PM
Any chance of a tutorial on shapening handsaws?
Sure. When I have time to sit down and do it right I could write something up (with pictures). The sharpening part by hand for me is easier on a handsaw than a chainsaw ???, I do not use jigs for anything-don't believe in them. Anyone that can sharpen a chainsaw a handsaw should be a piece of cake, there are just different angles for different uses on a handsaw. It only takes a good file and a steady hand (and good eyes). Some saws need the teeth reset, but I think a guy can pick up a setter cheaper than a good file. Like SD said they are triangle shaped, the cheap ones are not worth buying if you are sharpening good steel.
I would surely appreciate that. I echo your thoughts on jigs.
I might be in a bind over the good eye part of it. I sure have a hard time seing where I filed last. I do have one of those magnifyers on an arm on my bench. I guess I should try using it sometime. :D
Quote from: LeeB on November 01, 2007, 07:11:46 PM
I might be in a bind over the good eye part of it.
I am blessed with excellent eyesight. I still use these "cheaters" some times. It is a cheap ($15 ? ebay) jewelers visor. It has flip down magnifying lenses...and a bright light. That is the handiest part for me , the light. I can see good, but to be honest my head is too big, it seems to always be blocking my light :D. I use the "headlight" alot and flip the lenses down for a closer look on occasion . They are down in the picture-just for the picture really.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12216/visor.JPG)
Daren I am all for a tutural , I can sharpen a chain saw cause I know how.. A hand saw I would like to know how :P :P
So when ever you find time , like in poker .. * I'm all in * :D :D :D
What would be the tools required for the job .. I already have a saw or three that are perfect for this . ;D I also havea saw sharpening vise ......... Where can one get a setter . ???
When I was a wee lad, my Uncle was a perfectionist Carpenter. Stuff he built looked like it grew together.
His biggest problem was, getting handsaws sharpened CORRECTLY. I've seen him go into a tirade with the local outfit that used machines. He had a guy lived in the country, that shaprened, I imagine, by hand.
My Uncle's test was , he could crosscut a standard 2 X 4 framing piece , with 5 strokes. Also, he would go crazy if the saw tip chattered when you pulled it back for the next stroke.
He taught me the difference, and the next year, he dropped dead on a job. I had just turned 14. I've missed that man my entire life.
Some of us talk about our uncles in the same light. ;) And some of us are those uncles. :) 8)
I had a little hand setter, for handsaws, that I kept in my tool pouch. Circular saw blades, if the set got too bad on those on the job, I just used what was on hand (couple blocks of wood and a hammer). 'Lunchtime' was also used for saw sharpening.
It is a beautiful thing to look down the teeth of a properly set and sharpened handsaw. With the saw set teeth up on an incline, a needle should slide right down the teeth.
Daren, can you sharpen the old one and two handed buck saws? I have a couple in pretty good shap I would like to have done.
Quote from: Radar67 on November 02, 2007, 12:08:47 PM
Daren, can you sharpen the old one and two handed buck saws? I have a couple in pretty good shap I would like to have done.
To be honest Stew, I have never sharpened one ::). Not saying I can't...just saying I have not.
Radar67
Do you have a picture of the tooth pattern? There is quite a variety of cutters and rakers on these cross-cuts.
Often, on the old cross-cuts found(two-man or one), the cutting teeth have been filed too much, making them shorter than the raker teeth...this makes for difficult wood cutting. The rakers are trying to remove chips that have not been severed from the wood.
If the saws are in this condition, first they need to be jointed (a jig is used to hold a flat file that takes all the teeth (cutters and rakers) down to the same level, making a flat area on each tooth. Then the rakers are swaged (tool for this) and the cutters are set and filed to just remove the flat on the tip. The rakers are then checked to see that they will rake out the wood chips that the cutters have sliced on two sides. More swaging may need to be done to the rakers to get them lower than the cutters.
I'll take some pictures this evening. The teeth seem to be in real good shape. On the two handed saw, it looks like very little sharpening has ever been done.
Tooth setters can be obtained from Lee Valley Tools, Traditional Woodworker and Tools for Working Wood. Thats just off the top of my head though. Files are the tapered triangular type. I've heard Simmons files are real good, but Tools for working wood has real good saw files.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-555-SF.XX&Category_Code=TFA (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-555-SF.XX&Category_Code=TFA)
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SAWSET.XX&Category_Code=TFA (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SAWSET.XX&Category_Code=TFA)
From what Im told, saw files are only good to sharpen about four saws, after that they wear out. Thats what spring steel does to ya :D
Here are the pictures of my saws BT.
I picked this blade up in Montana for 8 bucks. I replaced the handle with poplar. The original handle was nothing more than a splinter left on the blade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TDSSaw1.jpg)
Here is the tooth pattern. There are a couple of teeth missing and the blade was broken on the end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TDSSaw2.jpg)
A close up of the handle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TDSSaw3.jpg)
A two person saw I picked up in North MS a few years back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TDSSaw4.jpg)
The tooth pattern.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/TDSSaw5.jpg)
Basically, all I have done to these saws is rub the blades down with mineral spirits and steel wool to remove the rust. No paint used on them at all.
Place a straight edge over the teeth, and see if the cutters are higher than the rakers...then it's in pretty good shape. If the rakers are higher, then it needs to be jointed...first step.
I've not seen the likes of the teeth on the one man saw, but looks like a similar arrangement of cutters and rakers... :)
Thanks for the pics...nice handle job.
I have one like your second picture. I also have a 5 foot long blade that is missing the handle, it's a one man type saw. It's probably for bucking spruce logs.
Quote from: Radar67 on November 02, 2007, 09:32:18 PM
Here are the pictures of my saws BT.
Yea, beenthere totally spelled it out how to tackle them. Those saws are like modern chainsaw chains, cutters and rakers. They don't look like they have been messed up by someone with a grinder or anything. You can still see the angle of the filed edge on the cutting teeth. You could touch that up with a flat file real easy on the 2 man saw and with a triangle file on the other (you have to sharpen all the way into the base of the tooth)
From the picture it looks like the 2 man needs the rakers taken down, but that may be the camera angle ?
Go for it.