The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: sunriseseamless on November 16, 2007, 10:14:17 PM

Title: How to avoid nails
Post by: sunriseseamless on November 16, 2007, 10:14:17 PM
I was reading one of the other posts and the subject of nails came up.  Since I have yet to mill my first log, I had never considered this problem.  How does one avoid nails?  One sawyer mentioned a metal detector.  Is that a common practice?  Do they work deep into a log?  I plan on cutting up a tree that was from a back yard and I know there are two somethings because I can see some cloths line hanging out.  Would it be prudent to not use wood that was close to the ground, say 5-6 feet?  What's the damage to a blade when you hit a nail?  Resharpening, or replacing?
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: LeeB on November 16, 2007, 10:25:37 PM
Use a dull blade. A new one will find any tramp metal every time :D  Metal detectors work ok. If this treee was in a bck yard and has clothelines in it, you can bet there is more junk in there than that. Might not be worth it.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Tom on November 16, 2007, 10:31:48 PM
Yep, clothesline hanging out says a nail is in there somewhere and experience has shown me that nobody will use one when a half dozen will work.

The effort to salvage the wood is directly dependent on how valuable the wood. If you write off a new blade every time you hit metal (one nail can be hit 3 or 4 times) what is the wood worth?

Metal detectors work but are no guarantee.  Expect to spend $250 or more to get one worth while.  You will be looking at depths of 3" to 8" most of the time.  :)

Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: dad2nine on November 16, 2007, 10:50:23 PM
Metal detectors don't work so good for pop bottles  >:( hit one of those in a crotch. Also in a crotch I found a single barrel carburetor (shade tree mechanic). Bought a top notch metal detector, only scans so deep (semi useful). Found all kinds of stuff in logs - nails, barbed wire, copper pipe, steel pipe, porcelain electrical wire insulators and electrical wire, both copper and aluminum, yep and even a rubber garden hose. I have yet to find a gold piece though or any old money  :D

I finally got fed up with log trash, so now I BUY yes BUY logs from logging companies. Guess what no more trash, only an occasional bullet which is lead and doesn't murder my blade and so far one razor tipped arrow head... Buying forest logs from someone who harvests trees for a living is the best way to go around here, they don't call it the dirty south for nothing... Anyways I feel a lot better now selling my lumber to folks. Just imagine what a little log trash will do to planner knifes and table saw blades, it could be down right dangerous...

Thanks
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: DanG on November 16, 2007, 11:25:55 PM
Welcome to the Forum, Sunrise!

Don't let nails discourage you.  They are a pain, to be sure, but they aren't a deal breaker.  I get almost all my logs from yards and city streets, and I hit some metal sometimes, but not enough to be a big problem.  Look at it this way;  If you saw urban wood, about one in ten will have metal in them.  Of those, you will find at least half with the metal detector, if you use one.  Of the ones you find with the saw, maybe half will destroy the blade, and the rest can be resharpened.  Of the half that get destroyed, half of them will have been about worn out anyway.  As I said, it's a big pain in the butt, but it ain't really that big of a deal.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Tom on November 16, 2007, 11:34:57 PM
I have been around a lot of derogatory comments about the south in my life, but I hadn't heard The Dirty South before.  It was bothering me a little, well, even more than a little, so I googled it up, not expecting to find anything.

Lo and behold, there it was.  Wiki called it an endearing.  I have problems with that.  What could be so endearing about being Dirty?

Further reading lead me to specific areas contained in the dirty south.  Among them are Dallas, Atlanta,Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Houston, Shreveport, Orlando, Louisville, Tampa, Jacksonville, Austin, New Orleans, Miami, and San Antonio.  

Now, I don't think most of us would be proud of calling ourselves the Dirty South, so I read further and found that it came from Rap music out of the 1990's.  That explains it.  I wouldn't even stand close enough to a radio playing it to listen to it.  These so-called artists aren't a part of my society, never have been and never will be.  They might live in a Dirty South, but I don't .  You make your world be what you desire.  I want a world full of good, healthy, happy, educated people with the wisdom to recognize that they can do better and the wherewithall to do it.   Those folks are bound and determined to live in Government housing and complain of being put in jail when they break the law.  They want it all for nothing, don't stand for anything and spend their waking hours tearing down what it's taken several hundred years to build.

They might live in a dirty south, but I don't  I don't like that term and find it as derogatory as "Stupid Southerners".  Self deprecation is one thing. Self condemnation another.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Firebass on November 17, 2007, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: DanG on November 16, 2007, 11:25:55 PM
  As I said, it's a big pain in the butt, but it ain't really that big of a deal.

Hey DanG,
Dont you run a circle blade and if so.
Will a single nail normally put a carbide circle blade out of commission?    I know I sawed one of my log dogs off and I just touched it up and I've since sawed over 10,000 bf with the same blade.   I wasn't going very fast cuz I knew I was close.  OUCH. 

This being my 100th post, I'll surely be doomed for posting such statistics :D

Firebass
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: LeeB on November 17, 2007, 12:28:24 AM
Go Tom!!!!!
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: WH_Conley on November 17, 2007, 05:51:56 AM
Rap music and artists. Boy that is a contradiction of terms.

Course I noticed Tom put in the disclaimer of "so called".

We hear ya Tom, full steam ahead.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: brdmkr on November 17, 2007, 07:12:58 AM
I have hit metal with my Lucas and sometimes nothing happens.  Maybe just a chipped tooth.  Maybe nothing at all.  I have also hit ONE PIECE of metal and destroyed every tooth AND chipped the blade itself.  Of course bigger metal is worse than small, but a 16 penny nail is big enough and that seems to be the metal of choice around here.  I also think the attack speed matters too.  It seems that if you are sawing slow, it does less damage.  I am not sure that would work the same with a band mill.  I could see where going fast might help with a band.

Regardless, I hate metal in logs (unless it is my saw ;D)
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Cedarman on November 17, 2007, 07:29:42 AM
The only sound worse than the zing, zing, zing a blade makes after hitting a nail is the noise coming out of a radio when rap is being played.  It is banned from my hearing.

A good metal detector is invaluable when you suspect metal in a log.  You must know your detector and learn to listen for the faint sounds of deep metal.  Also wait until there is very little background noise, ear phones pay dividends too.   A detector is invaluable for finding a lost nut in the sawdust pile.  If it is next to the mill, scoop the sawdust away from metal in the mill and you can find anything metal that was dropped. 

If possible check the tree while standing.  This will let you check all around the tree.  It can help keep your chainsaw from hitting that low metal of a fence staple.

Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: bandmiller2 on November 17, 2007, 07:53:47 AM
I'am talking bandmill now.Nail damage depends on how you hit it,if hit at right angles and the nail not too big, little damage.If the band hits it parallel rides up on it that plays hobb.If you hit one at right angles stop and check for little curls of steel just below the cutting edge flip them off with your pocket knife.Of course oak will show blue discolor that will travel quite a ways, that will tip you off,  to hardware.After a wile you will just get a bad feeling about some logs from looking at the bark and where they came from.Frank C.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: mike_van on November 17, 2007, 07:57:47 AM
The one with the clothesline hanging out - That'd be in my firewood pile. But, 15 years ago.................. :D
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Norm on November 17, 2007, 08:23:10 AM
I saw mostly logs that are harvested by professional loggers and still get nails. I was driving into the town they are based out of and low and behold there they were taking down a big black walnut out of a side yard. I stopped and asked what they were going to do with it and sure enough it was going to market. Worried about nails guys, nope no staining in the log so no nails.  :D

Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Ron Wenrich on November 17, 2007, 08:57:51 AM
I only saw logs from loggers.  Very rare is the yard tree.  And yet, with a logger that has cut the tree, someone has bucked the tree, its gone through a debarker which will throw sparks when hitting metal, I still hit nails.  I've even saw stuff hanging out of trees where I asked the logger how he didn't tear his pants cutting it down.  I keep track of downtime, and it costs me about 1 weeks worth of work each year.

On a lot of trees, you'll see a place where the bark looks different.  The bark pattern will show that its healed around the nails.   Blue in a log is usually a sign, but coated nails no longer turn the wood blue. 

I'm running a circle mill.  I will not use carbide or chrome teeth.  Having an inserted tooth saw means that when I hit metal, at best I can keep on sawing.  At worst, I have to replace teeth.  I can file my saw in 5 minutes on a normal brush with nails.  Insulators means I just replace the bits. 

I've never used a metal detector.  But, logs that are veneer rejects nearly always have metal.  No blue and no metal detector.  So, it is possible to tell way before hand.  You just have to know what to look for, I guess.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: dad2nine on November 17, 2007, 09:23:00 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 16, 2007, 11:34:57 PM
I have been around a lot of derogatory comments about the south in my life, but I hadn't heard The Dirty South before.  It was bothering me a little, well, even more than a little, so I googled it up, not expecting to find anything.

Lo and behold, there it was.  Wiki called it an endearing.  I have problems with that.  What could be so endearing about being Dirty?

Further reading lead me to specific areas contained in the dirty south.  Among them are Dallas, Atlanta,Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Houston, Shreveport, Orlando, Louisville, Tampa, Jacksonville, Austin, New Orleans, Miami, and San Antonio. 

Now, I don't think most of us would be proud of calling ourselves the Dirty South, so I read further and found that it came from Rap music out of the 1990's.  That explains it.  I wouldn't even stand close enough to a radio playing it to listen to it.  These so-called artists aren't a part of my society, never have been and never will be.  They might live in a Dirty South, but I don't .  You make your world be what you desire.  I want a world full of good, healthy, happy, educated people with the wisdom to recognize that they can do better and the wherewithall to do it.   Those folks are bound and determined to live in Government housing and complain of being put in jail when they break the law.  They want it all for nothing, don't stand for anything and spend their waking hours tearing down what it's taken several hundred years to build.

They might live in a dirty south, but I don't  I don't like that term and find it as derogatory as "Stupid Southerners".  Self deprecation is one thing. Self condemnation another.

Yep agree - but around here it's not only called the dirty south it's called the dirty dirty. Was wondering where that phrase came from...

Thanks
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Mr Mom on November 17, 2007, 10:27:34 AM
   Dont buy a mill.
   If you all ready have a mill dont cut and logs.

   Man do i need a mill ;D ;D.
   Thanks alot Mr Mom
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Firebass on November 17, 2007, 11:39:32 AM
Quote from: brdmkr on November 17, 2007, 07:12:58 AM
I have hit metal with my Lucas and sometimes nothing happens.  Maybe just a chipped tooth.  Maybe nothing at all.  I have also hit ONE PIECE of metal and destroyed every tooth AND chipped the blade itself. 

Hi brdmkr,  You seem to be faily knowledgable about lucas blades.  I have a few questions that you may be able to help with.
Say you hit some trash and tear all the teeth off your blade.    Now you send your blade in for re-tip.  Do you have it hammered as well.  Is it common to hammer lucas 8" blades?  I've torchered my blade  and it still seems ok.  I guess they're fairly resistant to warpage.    Is it the kerf that gets larger that lets you know your blade needs hammering?

Thanks
Firebass
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: DanG on November 17, 2007, 12:18:42 PM
Firebass, I'm using Stellite teeth on my MD mill.  Typically, hitting a large nail will chip off the corner of one or two teeth.  Good sharp corners are essential to getting a clean cut with a circle mill, so I replace them.  I don't sharpen on the mill, so I usually replace the whole set and resharpen them later, culling out the chipped ones.  Frequently, I can match up a set of chipped ones and reuse them by shortening them a bit.  I try to keep the sets pretty closely matched.

A set of teeth for my six-tooth blades costs about the same as a band blade, but I rarely trash a whole set.  The most I ever lost on one hit was five...2 on the main and 3 on the edger.  That was a $20 hit.  I live in fear of wrecking the main blade itself, though.  That would be a $800 hit. :o
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Tom on November 17, 2007, 12:55:30 PM
I want to say this about that.

When I hit metal with my band, I expect the worse.  Usually, if I was really in the groove and moving on, there will be 15 or 20 teeth stripped from the band, making it unusable.

Sometimes I can clean the softer metal of the nail off of the teeth and keep on going.  There will  be marks on the wood, but that's OK.  When this happens, the time it takes to set and go around the sharpener several times makes it questionable that the economy is there to do it.   I still do it and end up using the band for my own work.  Somehow, they seldom get back good enough to use on a customer's log again.

Every once in a while, I can salvage one.

So, when I hit a nail, I finish the cut and might make a few more cuts listening to the swish-swish until I can't stand it anymore. Then I put on a new blade.  I just chalk up a $20 bill when I here that zing. (even though the blade is still cutting, that swish tells you it is hammering your bearings)

The most economical way is to avoid the metal to begin with.  There are only two ways to do that.  One is for the nail to be exposed and for you to find it.   The other way is to invest in a metal detector.  Neither way is a guarantee. 

The worse I can do is destroy a band.  That's about $26 today if I hadn't gotten any use from it at all.
The worse a circle mill can do is destroy a shaft, though it's more common to destroy the blade.  That can run into Thousands of dollars.

I doubt that metal in a log would damage a chainsaw bar too much, so the max for them would be in the $20 to $50 range, depending on the length of the chain.

Measuring the scale of economy on all of them, I would favor the band if I knew I was going to be hitting metal big enough to do Maximum damage.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Sparty on November 17, 2007, 01:36:04 PM
Us folks in the "dirty south" of Michigan are called Trolls by the yoopers because we live under the bridge ;D. 

I look at nails this way....most of what I get sawn up are 24" to 40" walnut logs.  Some of them are yard trees.  Now if a metal detector goes off on these logs, am I going to throw them into the firewood pile?  Heck no!  I look for the obvious metal and otherwise saw away and pay the bill for wasted blades.  It all evens out.  Sometimes I cut thick stock from yard trees with the theory that I will hit less metal by making fewer cuts...but that doesn't help out the end user of the lumber.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Corley5 on November 17, 2007, 01:52:04 PM
Quote from: Sparty on November 17, 2007, 01:36:04 PM
Us folks in the "dirty south" of Michigan are called Trolls by the yoopers because we live under the bridge ;D. 

You're called Fudgies by we Trolls who live closest to the Bridge  ;) ;D :D :) :) :)
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Tom Sawyer on November 17, 2007, 05:44:21 PM
My personal opinion on metal detectors is that the time that it takes to scan a log and try to dig out any metal that you find is worth as much as or more than the cost of a blade (I have a band mill) if it is completely wrecked.  I find that at least 90% of the blades that hit metal are not completely wrecked and can be resharpened.  The only time that I scan with a metal detector is if I am resawing some salvaged timbers or something like that.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Andy Harden on November 18, 2007, 07:37:54 PM
What Tom said!
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Handy Andy on November 18, 2007, 09:06:50 PM
  Tom, did you ever think of running for public office?  This country is way short of people who think like you and can articulate, especially in  government. 
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: tcsmpsi on November 19, 2007, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 16, 2007, 11:34:57 PM

Further reading lead me to specific areas contained in the dirty south.  Among them are Dallas, Atlanta,Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Houston, Shreveport, Orlando, Louisville, Tampa, Jacksonville, Austin, New Orleans, Miami, and San Antonio.  


Well then, that 'splains that.  Any thinking that Dallas is in the South, is off kilter anyhow.   :D
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Jim_Rogers on November 19, 2007, 06:15:42 PM
I usually saw without checking every log with a my metal detector....
But after I hit a nail in a log I pull it and check to see if anyone else is home....
And I check all the other sides as I roll it to try an minimize the number of chances of hitting nails....
Sometimes this means rolling the log back onto the loader and lowering it down to the wooden bunks to get away from the metal of the mill, but you have to do what you have to do.....

I grind my own blades a 2 times very lightly and then use them...
After a few grindings, I send them in to Re-sharp for sharpening and setting....
This procedure has saved me lots of money over the years....

I got my metal detector from Radio Shack for about $129 or so.... works for me....

As mentioned reading a log for stain or bark swirls will tell you a lot about whether or not there is metal in there....

Jim Rogers
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: Nate Surveyor on November 23, 2007, 05:45:13 PM
Never put on a sharp, or new blade. This will keep you from hitting nails!  :D :D :D

N
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: inspectorwoody on November 23, 2007, 06:28:23 PM
All of our logs are fed through a ring debarker than through an MDI metal dectector. If metal is present, the log is kicked off the deck back into the log yard where it is scanned with an MDI hand held. If possible the metal is bucked out and the log is thrown back on. If the metal cannot be found or bucked out,the logs are piled and taken to our WI mill where they mill them up on the mizer.

I've used the MDI hand held several times and find it to be very accurate. Took down a yard Walnut. Find one nail,pulled it out and couldn't get the other one so I bucked it shorter. Still made veneer.

Metal dectectors can earn there keep and pay for themselves if your willing to make the initial investment. When you look at the down time involved in hitting hardware plus the cost of parts etc.,it is worth the time it takes to scan a log.

Our bands run about $800-1,000 if we junk it. Plus another $800-1,000/hour down time cost.
Title: Re: How to avoid nails
Post by: oldsaw on November 25, 2007, 12:42:07 AM
Don't start milling wood.  If you don't mill, the chances of not cutting nails goes down significantly.   ;D

Get a metal detector, avoid yard trees, scan between cuts, but you are still going to find them.  Follow the stain.  Sometimes you get lucky and cut into metal stain before you hit the tramp metal.  Sometimes.

Mark