On Wednesday I have to make a decision as to what kitchen cabinets I am going to purchase.
I've been told the cheapest to use is oak. (Is that red or white oak?) Everything else is more dollars.
I'd like some opinions as to the pros and cons of white oak versus red oak for cabinets. (and any other suggestions to help me make a good choice).
I like a fairly light-colored wood, although I saw some maple cabinets today and felt they were too light. Probably will go with raised panels rather than the cheaper flat panels.
I see more red oak cabinets, then I do white. But both are out there.
I belive red oak will be the cheaper of the two, but don't know for sure.
The finish can make all the difference in how light or dark either oak looks.
I'm guessing you are going to a home center or something to look them over?
I wouldn't buy a style that I couldn't look over before buying.
Perhaps I'm not the one to ask for an opinion because I generally don't favor lighter woods except for trim or inlay.
Between the two, I would take the Red Oak over the White Oak in a heartbeat. The White is ... well, white in color, kinda. Most I've seen in its natural state was sort of gray. Not that it's ugly, you understand, but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of "life" in it. What fixtures would you put with it, zinc, chrome, silver?
Red Oak actually has a color. It's reds, browns and sometimes yellows are warm and inviting. They make a cold wintry day a pleasure when you're inside, like pulling a heavy blanket up around your nose in a warm bed. They polish good, have decent grain figure whether you like quarter sawn or Flat, and the fixtures that go with it are the warm and regal brasses, golds and even white ceramics. Why it would be cheaper is beyond me. It holds fasteners just as good as white oak and is even lighter. That makes hanging them a little easier. I know, it's not a problem to a professional, but it still makes a point with me. It's the finishes that get put on Red Oak that do it no service. Just brushing on polyurethane leaves the open grain showing through the surface of the varnish where it might look like it's stuck in some places and not in others. But, if care were taken and the wood was sealed, it can be finished to such a high gloss as to look as if it were made of a marble-like material. I've seen Charlie finish Red Oak and make it as slick as a piece of glass. I really like the gold hinges and handles that make it look so rich. Even the brass, and patina laden too, can give it an Old Ship look.
White Oak goes with glass and Chrome. Just not my thing. :)
See how cheap Opinions come? :D :D :D :D
If you are getting "oak" cabinets, chances are they will be red oak for the main reason red oak is slightly easier to work than the harder white oak. As far as price, red oak was more expensive as it was more popular than white, but lately that may have reversed.
As far as color, like Furby said, the type of finish will determine the color, but most oak cabinets are stained to a darker finish. Even with naturally finished white oak, it will appear more brown than white after finishing.
The other differences in properties like white oak being more decay resistant and red oak being porous are not really important for cabinets.
So overall, the quality of the construction and finish will be far more important than red or white oak.
Either one will make great cabinets, so just pick the one you like best. If you've already picked out the countertops and flooring, you'll want to keep them in mind so the cabinets don't clash.
If you still have trouble making up your mind after you see the choices, just flag down any woman who happens to be passing by. That will effectively remove you from the decision making process. ;D
Quote from: DanG on November 20, 2007, 12:57:25 AM
If you still have trouble making up your mind after you see the choices, just flag down any woman who happens to be passing by. That will effectively remove you from the decision making process. ;D
Yeah, but he might be there all day then. :-X
Current market conditions are that white oak is more expensive than red oak, at the mill level. Everytime I have looked at cabinets, the price differential between "expensive" wood versus "cheaper" wood never was reflected that much in the price of the cabinet. I've never been in the cabinet market, so, I don't really know how much a whole kitchen costs.
I have always bought what I liked. Nothing worse than buying a product that you don't like as much, and the sole driving thought is cost. Regrets down the road will be higher priced.
I think either the white or red oak will work well. Just a little stain brings out the grain patterns. Here are some quarter sawn red oak cabinets.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10068/q%20sawn%20oak.jpg)
Red oak cabinets I built for our live in shop. Crown moulding on the uppers was not installed when I took the picture. Cabinets are finished with a mix of poly and BLO which warmed up the wood color a slight amount. The pic is very close to the actual color.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/P8260020.JPG)
In my part of the country, as a general rule red and white oak cabinets are out. Light colored maple cabinets are the "in" style.
I worked in a home theatre a while back where the "in" style was tossed to the wind. Ceilings were flat black with stainless steel panels, cabinets were dark cherry, all the trim was white maple, and a rough quarry stone floor tied it all together. The result was stunning and unique...all thanks to an excellent interior decorator. So I guess you can think outside of the box and get away with it.
Another thing to keep in mind is that you are actually getting oak wood cabinets. I know , I know. But the industry is very clever with what they can disguise. Recently, my big sis bought a new home and asked if I could install her cabinet handles. This apparently was an extra cost if the builder did it. ??? ::) I drilled the first pair of holes for a drawer pull and what kind of saw dust comes out of her cherry cabinets? MDF. :-X
I love my red oak cabinets. They have character, whereas, some of the more bland woods do not have as much in my opinion.
So red wine or white wine with a certain meal? The answer is the one you like, not what some critic likes :). So many people follow some trend. I say be an individual and plow your own ground ;D.
Thanks for all the replies, guys.
Larry--Your cabinets appear to be exactly what I want, color-wise. Great picture. 8)
I'll need to ask how much extra arched panels would run.
The oak that grows here is burr oak. I cut up a bunch of it, and this last summer built a kitchen for a local kid from the stuff. He and his wife like it very much, and I thought it was red oak. Had some scraps of red oak I bought from a company from Kansas City. And it looks about exactly the same color, except it has black streaks occasionally. The experienced sawyers call it Black Oak. Well, the other day the Kansas State Forrester stopped by, and I showed him some, and he said that it is Burr Oak, and that it is White Oak. Now white oak I have seen in the past didn't look anything like red oak, kind of had a greenish look when compared to red, so I am confused about what I have. But the kitchen turned out cool.
I've always found that tree quality and characteristics vary from one area to another. We get logs from a pretty wide area, and quality is different.
As for oak species, we get black, red, scarlet, pin, chestnut and white. The last 2 are considered white oak, but the chestnut is much better quality, when growing on a good site. The color is brownish, but it has a much clearer grain pattern than our white oak.
Red oak is by far a much clearer oak than our black. Our black oak is pretty good quality and we can sell it for veneer.
I think if you can match your lumber pretty well, then there isn't any problems. Some shops aren't as particular as others, and you'll see it in their work.
If you are going to purchase your cabinets it is only a decision of preference. If you are building them, the red oak is easier to work with than the white. The white tends to chip out more on sharp edges than red. Remember that there are many things that effect price in cabinets. Like the hinges, drawer glides, interior materials, and exterior trims. The hardwood cost is usually only about 20% of the cost of what I sell cabinets for. So an increase to a higher price hardwood only only drives up that part of the cost. Good luck with your purchase.
QS white oak with a fumed stain ;) Thats just my opinion though so take it with a grain of salt. I prefer white oak by far.
Ash is often past off as oak in stained products, nothing wrong with ash for cabinets but it sells for considerably less then red oak and will often be used in its place.
well here goes a can of worms
I have mixed boards, red and white oak together, in cabinets and on floors. Very noticable difference at first, after a time you really cant tell unless you get right up close and examine. this is with clear finish.
In Minnesota and this section of NW Wisconsin, Red Oak is the predominate wood for cabinets and molding. Red Oak is for interior use only. If you look at the endgrain of Red Oak you will see a bunch of holes. Well.......those are like straws going up into the wood. If you set a piece of Red Oak in a glass of water you can watch the water move up the wood through those "straws".
White Oak is a good exterior wood and is used for barrels and boats and other exterior uses. It's heavy, hard and durable.
I'd choose Red Oak for interior cabinets and molding.
Tom, you should write advertising copy. smiley_clapping
Mark
Soooooooooo.......................
Whatcha get Doug ???
Here's the update....
What I am ordering is made by a company called Karman. I don't know if they are a national company or just local.
I went to the showroom and was disappointed with their red oak finish. So, with input from my wife and daughter (after an hour in the showroom I just didn't care what we got any more) we decided to up the ante and go with hickory. We were told it was just 5% more.
Harvest Roman style, which is a raised panel with a single curve at the top (no extra charge), and a stain which they call Taupe. (No idea how they come up with the color taupe. I know what color taupe is (chocolate grey) and this is not even close to that--more like clear hichory.
I don't really care for the contrasting colors of hichory which I am sure I will get, nor do I care for the rustic look of knots (I'm hoping they are kept to a minimum) but now I can say, "It's what you wanted."
It will probably be three weeks before they are ready so I will have lots of time to get the drywall primed and painted (8100 square feet @ 25¢ for taping), and the doors hung.
I bet you end up liking the hickory cabinets. I've sawed for folks who made cabinets out of it. It reminds me of a Louisville Slugger baseball bat. :D
Now, every time you go to the kitchen you will be reminded of the World series. Or Barefoot baseball.
Or....... :D
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout;
But there is no joy in Mudville-- great Casey has struck out.
— Ernest L. Thayer
While it is indeed personal preference, I do like a lot of the hickory cabinets I've seen over a lot of the oaks. :)
Doug,
At least it will be better than an old tent down by the river :). It would be hard to hang cabinets in a tent :D.
Here are some pictures of how my cabinets turned out. I went with hickory instead of oak and I do like them a lot, just as Tom suggested I would. Very few "rustic" features and the sapwood/heartwood contrast is not too distracting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00620.jpg)
Kitchen cabinets looking east
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00622.jpg)
Kitchen cabinets looking south
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00623.jpg)
Dining room cabinets
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00624.jpg)
Living room cabinets
I decided to add just a couple of pictures of how my tile work turned out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00616.jpg)
Bathroom tiles with vanity
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10332/DSC00617.jpg)
Entry tiles (Note the difference in color between flash and no flash. Same tiles. These are the true color.)
Nice looking kitchen, did you instal the cabinets yourself? nice job on the tile also, did you use the 1/4 inch hardibacker board under the tile? I've done a couple of tile jobs and found out that I like it, not quite as much as working with wood, but I enjoy it.
any way, good job and thanks for the pictures
steve
Thanks, Steve. Let's just say I helped with installing the cabinets. I have a friend who owed me some hours for drywalling his basement. He installs for a living. ;D $8000 for the cabinets, including two adult-height 42" bath vanities. You can't tell from the pictures but he did an excellent job, especially on the crown molding. The solid-surface cost me $5000 ($30/sf) but that also includes the two vanity tops and window sills in cultured marble--14" wide in four basement windows--ICFs with 3 1/2" (interior) wall.
Yes, I used Hardibacker (1/4") over the 3/4" OSB, screwed every 8".
Tommorrow I start hanging 14 interior doors. :(
Quote from: Tom on November 24, 2007, 07:34:40 PM
Or....... :D
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout;
But there is no joy in Mudville-- great Casey has struck out.
— Ernest L. Thayer
The Mudville Gazette headline this morning announced that "Mighty Casey" has been called before Congress to testify on alleged steriod use charges. ::)
Doug -those cabinets look great! Nice tile work too. Keep on posting the pix.
Scott