Anybody else have a problem with their drive belt for the hydraulic pump breaking after 30 hrs? Its no big deal to keep a spare on hand and replace it, but I think it should last forever. I might change it over to a chain drive if this keeps up.
Check belt pulley alignment. Take the belt off and turn the pump by hand, should be smooth. Had a bearing go out of a haybaler a few years, like to have never fould it, it would just hang once in a while, the belt had to take the instant torque for an instant fefore it would start again. Was on the third belt before it did it while I was watching.
The pump is new. As far alignment goes there is none. It is mounted at the factory and that is where it sits. I think that it is just slipping occasionally when the logloader puts a load on it and it is wearing in places along the belt, until it catches and breaks. I am going to try and get more tension into it with a come-a-long and see if I can limit slippage more. My other though besidesa chain is to buy a shaft mount for a woodsplitter and direct shaft driving it, but then I have to cut a hole in my front pully cover.
My Breezewood mill has a chain to drive the hydraulic pump. I asked the manufacturer why he didn't use a belt and he said he couldn't get a belt to hold up very long. The shafts are only about 10" apart center to center so you can't use big pulleys or heavy belts. The chain drive works ok. I just have to shoot some oil on it every couple days.
I would think it should last for a long time also. Too much tension will obviously cook some bearings after a while. Is there no adjustment for the tension on the belt? Maybe you should buy two belts. Belts usually are numbered in 1/2 " increments. So if the # is 17390 the 17 is the number for the width and the 390 represents a 39 inch belt. So on and so forth with the 15395 is a skinnier belt than the 17 and it is 39.5 " long. Then the serpentine belts have a similar numbering system but they are usually numbers like 3030175 which is a 3 rib belt with a 17.5" length. 3050295 would be a 5- rib belt 29.5" long. 3070405 7-rib 40.5" so on and so forth. I would maybe try going a 1/2 " smaller with the belt than the one you have. Of course it will stretch over time so you might have to watch it.
So what did TK have to say? Did you call and ask them? Has the mill been acting this way the whole time or did it just start? If it just started then was there any alterations made before it started acting up?
The best drive setup for a hydraulic pump is direct with a Lovejoy type coupler. The one on my woodsplitter is 1980 vintage, still fine. I drove one pump with a roller chain, 20 hours, it took the seal out of the pump. A pump driven with a belt should have an outboard bearing for the strain of the tight belt. Just my 2 cents.
The mill is still new so everything is as it came from the factory. Its an 05 model, but I only have 31 hours on it now. The belt can be tentioned by loosening the pump mount and pulling it by hand and tightening it back up. I like the direct shaft drive idea and have already looked at the coupler, but the problem is that there is an electric clutch on the shaft to drive the band wheels, so the mount cannot be bolted to the crankcase. The belt is a 31 inch v belt so I went with a 30 to see if I can get a little more tention in it.
I will call TK if it continues to be a problem, I thought somebody on here might have one and know what to do about it.
I shucked a belt off a 3-belt new planer in less than 10 hours. I'm sure the belt was the cheapest the manufacture could find so I went back with quality belts and no problems after couple hundred hours.
Think I would try a quality belt before anything else...maybe ya can get TK to reimburse you.
i have been running a 1600 for over a year with no hydraulic trouble (except for cold weather!). i had the guard off once and noticed the pump belt was a bit loose. just slid the pump in the slots & tightened the bolts. the pump is quite small and shouldn't take much hp to drive. also made an idler for the saw wheel drive belts at the same time. keeps them from flapping in the breeze and twisting on the big sheave. al
I have had no problems with the belts on my 1600. The band wheel belts do "flop in the breeze" but I have never thrown one and any vibration which might be developed is not translated into the wood surface. Check the pulleys and make sure they are not bent. If they the belt is slipping a lot it will be glazed.
Thanks guys
I am going to see how long this new belt goes and see what happens.
It lasted five minutes. Guess I have to call TK in the morning.
The pump turns freely by hand with the belt off, until you open any of the valves and then it is nearly impossible to turn by hand.
I am going change the hydraulic filter and see if that makes a difference. The hydraulics work fine until the belt burns off. I can't imagine that that pump is bad that quickly! The temps have dropped in the past few days, maybe the fluid is just too cold to pump.
Call TK . I run mine at 10 degrees, it's a little slow at first but it works. Your over pressure relief may be set too high causing a strain on the pump at times or it just may be plumbed wrong. Is there any operation you do that causes the engine to strain- horizontal, vertical or log loaders?
I called TK and they have no idea, never had anybody report an issue like this, but said it sounds bad :-\
I drained the oil and checked the intake and return on the tank and they are both clear. It has been running fine up until now. The engine will drop about 100 rpm when the loading large logs and I have bogged it a little in big logs.
What weight oil are you running in the winter? And what filter? I pulled the return line off of the tank and put it in a bucket and the pump is circulating the oil well.
My only thought is that there is a blockage somewhere, but TK rep says it sould not burn belts because the check valves should bypass either way.
If anybody thinks of anything else, please post it... I am at an end for ideas.
I have a TK B-20 and kept having a problem with the hyd. feed slowing down or stopping. It would not do it often and then after a few months it got real bad. Stripped the whole system down and found a metal staple from a cardboard box in my feed valve. Had no problems since then.
Robert in Virginia
Thanks rewimmer
I am almost to the point where I am going to start taking all the hydraulic connections apart and checking them.
I am tempted to switch it to a chain drive and be done with it. Then the belt will not be the weakest link and I might be able to pinpoint the issue.
Oh it should run just fine with the staple in there...KNOT!
Was the staple from TK packaging or was it introduced to the system after you had been running it? That could actually be a touch on the unsafe side at the wrong time. Did you ever let TK know this was in the system?
Cantcutter... It sounds like you have way too much load at normal operating conditions. I would probably take the pump off and have a hydraulics place test it out for you. It should be no more drag than a power steering pump on a car. Or very similar. Maybe you could get lucky and find a staple too! Hope everything works out for you.
Hello rockchucker,
The staple must have gotten in their during assembly, and probably came from a hyd. parts shipping container. I have the Lovejoy type coupling on my TimberKing B-20. I had so many assembly screw ups on my mill when I got it home, that after 5 hours I stopped using it. Then disassembled most all of the mill and found miss alignments, square keys missing from sprockets, couplings sliding back and messing shafts up, log turner not assembled properly, etc. The head was so out of alignment that the blades were cracking from the back side. They are selling the mills faster than they can manufacture them. It is a good mill now and seemed to have been assembled by a bunch of you know what's. I confronted them about all these problems over the phone and by email and their response was "That those problems were due to the vibration while pulling my mill back to Virginia". So I realized who I was dealing with, so I just fixed all the problems and went my merry way. They are kind enough to send parts to you that will fix these issues.
cantcutter you said you replaced the v belt. I hope you did not purchase the new belt at an auto store. The automotive belts have a different angle on them than the industrial belts that came on your mill.
Kcwoodbutcher you said your band wheel belts were "flop in the breeze". Is that the v belts on your band wheels or your main drive belt? I would fix either asap if it belonged to me. When you bring the head all the way back and it is eye level running at 5500 surface feet per minute, then the floppy belt causes the blade to come off or break. It could just wrap around a part of you and cause serious injury. I have had blades break and shoot out of the mill 6 feet and it happened so fast that it was a blur. I worked on and designed machinery for 40 years and have seen some real nasty accidents.
Robert in Virginia
Quote from: rewimmer on December 17, 2007, 05:08:21 PM
cantcutter you said you replaced the v belt. I hope you did not purchase the new belt at an auto store. The automotive belts have a different angle on them than the industrial belts that came on your mill.
Robert in Virginia
You hit the nail on the head.
After several calls to TK and a full day of down time the rep for TK asked where I was getting the belts from and when I said the hardware store, he said oh....those will not work. I drove across town to a industrial supply company and bought another belt and it worked fine.
I am still questioning what caused the original belt to fail and am holding my breath.
Most hydraulic's can run ATF just as good as hydraulic oil, but I can't imagine it's that cold in Kentucky that thick oil's your problem? Or is it?
Run Hydraulic oil in the tractor, ATF in the hydraulics on the mill. Power steering on tractor leaks, dealer said hydraulic oil or atf will work. In cold weather atf flows faster, hydraulic lasts longer without running out. Got to get this fixed if it gets too cold to saw.
Just had to add this because I am in Ky too.
I still think a chain drive would solve all my problems, TK says its a bad idea though :-\
I have run ATF in the hydraulics on a few truck and in tractors before without a probem, TK says not to run anything less than grade 32.
No 28 F is not real cold and should not be a problem for grade 46 oil, but it is a little pump and a long way to push it to the end of the mill and back through the valves.
Any Anti-Wear Hydraulic oil "ISO 46" will work in your TK hydraulic system. I would suggest if you should change to another type or ISO number of oil, to contact the tech department of a major oil company for information or research it on line. As I posted above, after working on machinery for around 40 years I learned you do no deviate from the recommended ISO numbers. That Iso number has many packages in it so it will work with that system design for a long time. When guessing what type of oil to use is like mixing different types of gunpowder together when reloading bullets. "It don't work".
http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical7.html
Robert in Virginia
cutter,
Can we assume that you are starting the engine, letting it warm up, and circulating the hydraulic oil by engaging a valve while not under load? This is the only way (that I know of) to warm up the hydraulic oil in cold weather other than a tank or inline heater.
I fully understand the problems cold weather has on hydraulics. I have not cut below +17F but I put a heat lamp under my tank at around +32F for a short period before running. My point was to check before dumping a oil that was designed for a different application into a hydraulic system which could greatly shorten it's life. I have seen hydraulic systems ruined on $375,000.00 machining centers and lathes operated at room temperatures because someone took it upon them selves to change the type of oil that the system was not designed to use. I paid $26,000.00 for my mill and I will not dump power steering fluid into it's system before doing my home work.
Robert in Virginia
I checked with TK and they said not to use anything less than ISO 32. Said they put 46 in at the factory. I changed the belt and it worked for one day, then the temp dropped again and the belt started burning around the pully again. There is no warming up the fluid by letting it circulate, the belt starts to burn as soon as the engine is started and if you touch any valve it flys off. Pretty much anything under 30 degrees and the mill cannot be operated. Luckily its in the high 60s here this week and I am getting all the sawing I can done.
I thought about a tank heater, but usually don't have power available on location when milling. If I could come up with a mechanical tensioner for the belt that would help some.
Quote from: cantcutter on January 07, 2008, 07:27:46 AM
I I changed the belt and it worked for one day, then the temp dropped again and the belt started burning around the pully again. There is no warming up the fluid by letting it circulate, the belt starts to burn as soon as the engine is started and if you touch any valve it flys off.
is the belt the right width for the pulley? is the belt slipping on the motor or pump?
Yeah the belt is the right one, I realined the pullies already. the belt slips around the pump, I talked to a local hydraulics company and they said that the cold fluid is deadheading the pump because they have it circulating too far out through the energy chain and back, when it should only circulate the few feet through the valve block and back when nothing is in use.
How far out does it have to go??
Can you put in a diverter or another valve block within the "few feet" to get the oil circulating sooner?
Interesting problem.. :)
cutter....do you have a test gauge in your system,between pump and the relief valve.....call tech....ask what should relief valve be set at.....no matter what this should be done anyhow,may not be what the matter is,but just for starters...
Quote from: beenthere on January 08, 2008, 11:03:07 AM
How far out does it have to go??
Can you put in a diverter or another valve block within the "few feet" to get the oil circulating sooner?
Interesting problem.. :)
The mill bed is 17 ft long and the energy chain runs the hydraulics out to the end of the mill and back to the valve block then back to the tank.
I don't have a pressure valve except for the filter, TK said that if it was a checkvalve issue it would by-pass, not deadhead the pump.
I think it is a cold fluid/poor hydraulic design/needs a straight drive pump/ issue. ;)
I choose when I work so I just have to start watching the temperature. I would not loose too many days to cold weather in this part of the country.
Ok, I've been following this thread and I'm wondering if you are indeed correct on your thinking, why don't we hear of more owners with the same problem?
I may be totally wrong here, but I think either your setup is still not right, or you have some other issue inside of the pump, valves or hoses.
Just my thinking, but you are further South than a lot of other owners and I'd think there would be more problems up here than down there if it really was about the fluid.
Maybe I got a lemon, or other people are not milling as frequently on cold days as I do. Could be anything; Maybe the day mine was built they where out of some part in the warehouse and they substituted an inferior replacement. Could be that my hydraulics are stiffer than usual because I am not through the break in period yet.
Down side to buying equipment used is that it would cost me money to take it back and have them fix it.
I am not disappointed, they are as much help as they can be without bringing back to them. I just think that the people they have on the phone have too much booklearning and not enough hands on experience. They said that they do not recommend that you operate their mills at lowerthan 10deg. maybe they are just optimistic.
Another thing to consider is that this is a mid-range mill and I am using it for custom milling. When its cold out up north and somebody fires up their 1600 to mill some lumber they probably did not just drag it down the interstate 50 miles in cold weather at 70 mph before doing so.
I agree with most of what you just said. Anything is possible. :)
Dragging it down the road at 70 mph makes no difference to the fluid temp. Wind chill only works on things that are producing heat at the time.
So let me ask you this, what can you do that you have not already done to eliminate possibilities?
Before making a major change to the manufacture's design (chain drive/direct drive) I'd take the time to drain the system down and start checking things over.
I know it's not easy, but I think it would be the best move.
I'd probly try to send air through the lines to check for blockage.
Is there any chance you got water in the fluid and it did something to the pump or valves while sitting around?
I'm guessing you probly don't have a pump that's close to swap out and try?
Or even a valve/valve bank?
My thinking is, chain drive/direct drive will not solve your problem, just cover it up until it gets even worse.
I agree with Furby too. I'd be suspicious of the hyd oil, and or the pump.
Right now, the slipping belt is the weak link. You make something else the weak link if you go to a direct drive..and as Furby says...it covers up the problem for awhile.
If you are satisfied with just sawing on warm days, that should work.
Been an interesting discussion... :)
Quote from: Furby on January 08, 2008, 04:01:41 PM
I agree with most of what you just said. Anything is possible. :)
Dragging it down the road at 70 mph makes no difference to the fluid temp. Wind chill only works on things that are producing heat at the time.
No, but the temp of the oil in a tank that was run the day before and sitting covered is going to be higher than the one that was uncovered and dragged down the interstate.
Okay: There is really not a whole lot that can be screwed up on this thing. The hydraulics consist of...
1 pump
1 reservor
1 hydraulic motor driving the head
3 5000 lb rams, 2 on the loader and 1 to raise and lower head.
1 filter
1 valve block
and some hoses.
I have already, drained the system down and checked the intake on the tak, replaced the oil, replaced the belt three times, re-alined the pullies, replaced the filter, took apart and inspected all the hose connections, spoke with Timberking several times, spoke to local hydraulic company.
The pump I was told not to bother testing because if it was bad the hydraulics would not do anything, if it was weak I would know it every time I put the thing under load.
Pretty much I am left with just accepting it for what it is, cold weather and hydraulics.
Cancutter,
Is there any way that you could route the output of the pump directly pack to the tank bypassing all the hydraulics to see if that makes any difference? It could help you to isolate the problem.
Ron
Never heard of a hydraulic system without a pressure relief valve. THAT would circulate the fluid and mix it with colder oil, and help heat up the system quicker.
I assume your mill is under warranty. As I stated before, after 5 hours on the new B-20 I had to shut it down and completely rework everything on my mill. I spoke with TK afterwards and ask them to get a service rep to stop by when one was in my area. Sure enough in a month or so one called and stopped by. Everything checked out ok and he seemed to know what he was doing. You may give him a call.
Jowel Kennedy
870-612-2512
Robert in Virginia
Quote from: ronwood on January 08, 2008, 05:38:51 PM
Cancutter,
Is there any way that you could route the output of the pump directly pack to the tank bypassing all the hydraulics to see if that makes any difference? It could help you to isolate the problem.
Ron
I thought about doing this, but am not sure about how to go about doing it. The engine and pump is on the carriage and the valve block is on the mill bed. So the hydraulics have to leave the carriage in order to get to the valve block and there for must pass down the energy chain and back to the rear of the mill. It circulates, but what I can see it is circulating into the valve block and then back down the chain and back to the carriage. When you pull one of the valve levers it re-directs the fluid into that application.
I think I can put a three way in at the pump and circulate it right back to the tank until warm, but it will be about a 1 foot loop, not sure that will be enough?
Quote from: rewimmer on January 08, 2008, 06:33:49 PM
I assume your mill is under warranty.
No, I bought it off of the original owner with 12 hours on it, it only had a 1 year warranty and its two years old.
Worth a call though.
Where are the check valves?
Quote from: Furby on January 08, 2008, 06:57:07 PM
Where are the check valves?
I don't know? TK says it has a bunch of them, I am guessing that they are in the valve block because they are not inline or near the pump that I can see.
Ok, I'm not a hydraulic expert and willing to admit I don't know all that much about hydraulics.
I've gone over your posts several times looking for a constant timeline for lack of better words.
I'm thinking you have some kind of blockage/partial blockage in your valve system.
When the fluid is warmer, it gets around the blockage easier, but the blockage is still there.
Colder fluid is getting hung up at the blockage.
That's the best idea I can come up with at the moment, sorry if it don't help.
I'm with Furby on the hydraulic knowledge curve. I know enough to get someone who knows something to help me.
But about the blockage idea... One thing the hydraulic guy that built the power unit for me really stressed was to never use Teflon tape to seal threads on hydraulic connections. He said to use a paste. The reason being, a small piece of tape could get into the oil and find it's way into a valve or some other part and mess it up.
I mention this because I think you said you took some things apart. Maybe you (or someone before you) used Teflon tape to seal the threads on the connections.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10034/wsnewpump200604.JPG)
Here is a picture of our pump unit. Above the pump is some kind of bypass valve the builder insisted be installed. It'll dump excess oil back into the tank.
All the fittings are flare hydraulic connections, no tape or dope. Could be a blockage, I wouldn't even know where to start looking for it. Can eliminate the hoses because it would push through to the nearest fitting and stop there.
I think you may just have a lot of small things that are causing your problems.
First you might replace the pulleys on the belt drive. You could just have one that was machined wrong or the groove could be worn or polished too smooth from excessive slipping. The belt should not bottom in the groove as the sides of the V should do the pulling, not the bottom.
I agree, a chain drive should not be used for a hydraulic pump. Belt drives are tolerable but you have to keep the belt very tight and that is hard on the bearings and seals because of the side loading. Direct drive would be best.
If you did change the hydraulic oil, I hope you did use the ISO 32 rather than ISO 46. If it was me, I would even go to the Woodmizer recommended hydraulic oil which is an Exxon Univis J26 which is a multi-viscosity oil that can be used in any hydraulic system at temperatures from -20 deg F to 100 deg F . After all the hydraulic components in all mills are essentially the same.
If indeed the relief valve is located some distance from the pump, that too is a problem in cold weather. But before I would start changing things, I would check the setting on the relief valve.
So first check the pulleys for wear, then change the hydraulic fluid, then check the relief valve setting.
Who have you been speaking with there? The only person I will deal with as far as technical problems is Mike Anderson, he knows his stuff.
Thanks for the input Gary, I hate to change the fluid again, but I can save what I drain for summer I guess. The pullies look good to me, but changing them is cheap. I like the direct drive idea and was thinking that a chain would be second best, but I can see your point about the bearings. The direct drive coupler will cause me to have to loose the electric cluch for the band though.
Flip
Mike is who I have spoken with and I thought that he is less than knowlegable on hydraulics. Maybe its just that my warrenty is up so they don't want to be bothered, but until I brought in the third party hydraulic guy, Mike was completely unknowing as to where to start. In our first converstaion his closing statement was that "it sounds like something bad is wrong".
It sounds like you are to the point that much of this thread has turned into speculation. My two cents is that you go out and by a high pressure hydraulic guage and several feet of hose and some adapters. You need to either start checking pressures or have someone that knows hyd. do it for you. I'm sure TK can provide specs. as to what pressures you need to have at certain points, I thinks some are even in the owners manual if you have that. I understand the temp. causes some viscosity issues but I think that could be masking your root problem. Time to throw the guages on and get some specs.
Flip That sounds like a good plan to check pressures, at least you would end up chasing the right problem. Steve
I guess if all else fails load er up and head to Kansas City to visit for a couple days. Have hotels and a couple casinos there by TKs shop. Don't ask me how I know all of this ::)
Cantcutter;
Check the hose ends for over crimping,if the ferrul has large ridges on it,it may be restricted.
I built custom hydraulic systems,for 16 yrs.Length is not an issue on such a short run of hose.
Normally the engineering calc's are to overcome the pressure DROPS,through the fittings and components.Your problem seems to be excessive pressure at high viscosities (cold oil).
Check the drag chain for a twisted hose as well. I'll keep up on this thread and see how You do.
James :thumbsup:
BTW some pictures of everything would help greatly.
Cantcutter. Did you get the belt problem figured out yet? Steve
Not really.
I was milling a little today and could smell the belt burning. The temp was 24 F and the wind was wrong so I gave up early. Got tired of breathing sawdust and I did not have a mask with me.
The nice thing about this business is that if I don't feel like doing it I don't :D
I have lost intrest in chasing down the hydraulic issue; mostly because I am not convinced that there is one other than cold weather. Its not such a big issue that I am going to loose any sleep over it. The weather will be warm again in a few weeks.