Good Morning All! I have a lady that's given me a Red Oak log, 24' long, 36" on the butt, with a good bit of flare. I need to ge rid of some length and flare anyway, and she wanted some "Cookies" cut from that butt end for a coffee table, bar table, whatever. I was figuring about 3" thick slices would stay stable, and still leave plenty to flatten and smooth when they dry. What do I need to do to help her air dry these? I'm sure we need to lose the bark, regardless of what she wants, due to insects. But should I seal the cut surfaces? Just sticker and stack? I can get some large plastic bags and enclose them then open every other day or so to let moisture out, but not sure that would be best.
I am guessing that there isn't much of a tendency for these things to cup and curl, bur more likely to develop radial checking. What have y'all done that's worked?
Kiln dring isn't an option for me at this point :(
Thanks,
Greg
The wood will shrink when it dries, and it shrinks more along the annual ring than across (radial) the rings.
Overcoming this shrinkage is the only way I know of to keep the 'rounds' from checking. There are a variety of ways that have been attempted in the past, none of which are guaranteed to work.
Drying it slowly will require that you keep mold from discoloring the wood.
My suggestion would be to make a radial cut from one edge to the center, and hope that the shrinkage stresses will be relieved enough by that cut, that others won't form on their own. Two radial cuts would be better than one, and three better than two, etc.
You are right, that the radial checking is your worst enemy when the wood dries. Avoid making any claims that checking will not happen....it very likely will.
Get some ratchet straps and wrap one around each cookie. Tighten every day, Probably will still split, but, this will help, some.
FDH
That is an interesting approach... ::) ::) ::)
I have a customer who was using cookie rounds for display racks..............we tried every thing from an oven to a microwave to relief cuts on the back.........all took too long and they developed cracks anyway. I would say that anchorseal and time is your only possibility and I bet they crack anyway.
I used a strap on a 5 foot round white pine cookie and it hardly cracked. It was stored under cover outside. 5" thick
There ya go. 8) 8) One smart Bunny. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
We did Cypress using innertube bands. Took some stretching, I'll tell ya :o :o
Should be photos on here, someplace. ::) ::) ;D ;D
Here is How I usually look a log for carving and it will work for a cookie.
Most always the very first rings are not centered. And the center will actually be closer to one side than the other. This is almost allways where it will have a major check/split. So if you are going to cut it make it in the short path to the center. In a carving that relief cut will open pretty wide as wood shrinks.
Quartering the cookies would be the best . But after they dry they wont fit back together .They will have to be re cut to get the 4 quarter to line back up.
Root swell grain is pretty because it goes all strange directions. So It can add to the tension in the wood.
This might work. never tried but it just popped into mind. Cut the cookie then make the relief cut on a band saw on the short side, and strap it up and dry.
Dale
Another suggestion I've heard is to start with more than one cookie. Make relief cuts in different places on each cookie so that they will crack in different places, if you are lucky.
Then take slices out of one of the spare cookies to fix the crack in the primary cookie. (after they have dried)
I was told that if you were makeing a turned pillar out of solid wood that a hole through the center would releive the stress. Sort of a wood pipe.
Could you cut a hole one half to three quarters of the way up from the bottom to help releive the stress in a cookie?
The heart wood is more dense than the sap wood. It takes longer to dry and shrinks less. The outer ring is like a doughnut and as it dries and shrinks, it has no where to go because the unyielding heart is in the way. Applying peg, lindseed oil or a build type finish such as laquer, only to the outer ring would inhibit drying and allow the core to dry first and hopefully shrink enough to allow room for the outer ring. The laquer could be sanded off later.
Relief cuts on the back and a ratchett strap could be the extra edge needed to insure the process untill it is stable.
Then, could someone 'esplane me, why don't THESE split ???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/archives/deadheader/FDHroundslab.jpg)
I've still got a few 16" cookies that I cut from black gum several years ago. I was delighted to find they didn't split on me. What kind of wood is that?
REAL wood ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm not perzaktecly sure. Could be GuanaCaste, Cenizaro, Tamarindo, or one of the 2000 other species down here ???
I've got 24" and 48" and know of others, that never split. I'm sure the location has a LOT to do with it. This wood is like nothing y'all have ever seen. Species doesn't seem to be a determining factor, for the most part. ??? ??? Softer, lighter weight seems to split more .
Most is HEV VEEE . :o :o :o :o
I'm working on some more, very soon. 8) 8)
It is oval but was probably cut from a round log. Instead of making cuts 90 degrees to the log , angle the cut some ( 20-30 degrees )then cut slices. That makes the grain something other than straight up and down. they will dry without cracking this way a lot of times but will be oval not round.
I have been studying on the rachet strap idea and filling any checks with a colored epoxy once the cookie is dry. My thinking is to show off the cracks rather than hide them. I will likely route a recess in the bottom for 3/4" plywood to be glued into place with the hope that this will reduce further movement and checking. I think that would make for some awesome table tops 8)
Hadn't thought about letting in a piece of 3/4 ply on the bottomside. That should take care of most seasonal swelling/shrinking after they're dry. Good idea. Still wondering about the rate of drying, though. Air dry in an unheated garage? Or maybe sticker and cover it with another slab to reduce airflow? Other suggestions?
Thanks for all the ideas so far. I like that ratchet strap idea, Harold.
Greg
Greg
Hope you will take some pictures of the process as you move through the stages..
Heres a surefire method,never fails, I guarante it! First cut a 3' log,store in cool damp place. Every 2 weeks or so depending on humidty level, cut thinnest piece you can off both ends until you end up with desired thickness.Ya never know, it might work. I'mjust making this up as I go along, killing time, trying to delay snowblowing my driveway. Snowed a foot here last night. >:(
Here is somethig you can do for practice, and if you ever succeed, you can apply it to drying a cookie.
Fry slices of baloney and keep them flat. The same dynamics are taking place. The only way you can fry it and keep it flat is to slice it to the center.
like bck mentions, cut the cookies on a bias. Thats why you see white pine souvenir plaques in Michigan tourist trap shops shaped that way.
Harold, that looks like Pilon to me - but I could be wrong. By the way, that pilon cookies you cut for me are STILL okay. They haven't cracked yet - but I have been careful with them too.
Red oak is going to split. If you slice it thin enough it will cup into almost a bowl but what you are trying to do it will split. You could drown it in peg and it not bust to bad.
Cutting it into quarters and then putting it back together does work.
I have kiln dried walnut cookies cut at a angle and no splits all were under 12" though. I made several cookies out of a 140 year old white oak, lacqered them right away and keep inside shop. They looked great for about maybe 1 year then they split all to pieces. I dont think all the straps in the world would have held them together.
Originally, we used 2 bands of innertube. Had to really work to get them stretched over the pieces.
The last one, we used the ratchet strap.
We didn't have White Oak, so, we used Cypress ??? Might not work for others. It was just a suggestion, that DID work for us ;D
I charge more for cracked table tops when I put in butterflies and people love the look. After one or more butterflies I fill what ever crack or better yet cracks with sawdust paste mixed with polyurethane or fiberglass resin.
Bet this lady I'm cutting these for never expected we'd be getting advice from Central and South America! Thanks for all the input, now we just have to wait and see.
Greg
Jim, I have seen butterflies used before by someone on this site. That looks like a great idea. Not being a carpenter I don't have a clue how to do those. Is it a special tool?
Quote from: jim king on March 31, 2008, 10:43:12 AM
I charge more for cracked table tops when I put in butterflies and people love the look. After one or more butterflies I fill what ever crack or better yet cracks with sawdust paste mixed with polyurethane or fiberglass resin.
I am sure its a better way , but the way I have done it is to make the butterfly first .Then place it where you want it then scribe with a knife ( not a pencil ) . Then using a chisel cut it out , being carefull to get the bottom level for a good glue joint. A router or dremel tool with a small straight bit would work too.
Ironstumper:
The only way I know is exactly as you described, hammer and chisel. If it would help I could have one of my guys do one and take photos.
Jim
Jim King
I'd love ta see pictures or video of how you do it.
I've seen templates for use with a router and bearing bit to cut out butterflies. Cant remember where I saw them though.
I'm assuming a bandsaw (shop style) or jigsaw. To cut the butterfly? And yes I'd appreciate photos. We love photos. ;D
Don't forget Pickle chip.
Kiln is where it needs to go (at best).
This type of cut will always crack no matter how many times people ask how to not make it crack.
A method is to cut the chip in half, cut it on the natural crack (no natural crack?,, just wait 20min). Kiln dry it (notice I keep saying kiln dry). Then straighten the 2 edges and glue them back together.
You can also band the edge with tension, or fully seal the chip, or try to slow dry the chip, or cut it on a new moon after sacrificing a chicken, those are good methods to work the slice and watch it crack anyway.
Hope you got a laugh (good one Snowman).
jim
Sorry for the delay . Here is what we do with the cracked slices. We used a contrasting wood to make it easier to see but I like it. The small cracks were filled with super glue and charcoal. On the big cracks we use fiberglass resin with whatever for coloring.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_1_Cracked_slice.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_2_Starting_with_the_openings.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Copia_de_3_Roughing_out_the_butterfly_inserts.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/4_Finished_butterflies.JPG)
Jim, I was hoping you could share a little info. about the fiberglass resin you use. I've never filled in really big gaps, so I've always used epoxy, usually colored with graphite. I'd like to get more at once, rather than the little tubes of resin and hardener I get at the hardware store.
Just wondering what the stuff you use it labeled or marketed for (boats, bartops, adhesive, etc...) ???
brdmkr, I've seen Norm use those templates on the New Yankee Workshop. There was a bushing with a collar that fit around it....buzz out the hole with the bushing in, then remove it and cut out an insert in another piece of wood. He was making dutchment with it, which is used to cover up "defects" rather than add a structural piece. It was a pretty tiny router bit on that set, I don't know how it would work making thick butterflies. I've tried to do the same thing with the router bit & bushing assortment I have, but couldn't get it right....
ohsoloco
The fiberglass resin we use is for boat repair. It is good for a lot of things and can be colored with sawdust , charcoal or what ever. Here is a photo of a termite nest which is like paper soaked in resin and turned. It looks like granite.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14293/Termite_Bowl.JPG)
Thanks, Jim :) I've been meaning to pick up a larger batch of epoxy, but I'll go for a long time without needing any, and then I'll need a bunch. Does anyone know the shelf life on these two part resins ??? UNmixed, of course :D
Cool turning Jim
I used "West System Epoxy" when I built a canoe 5 years ago and I still have some on the shelf that I use on various projects. Keep the two parts sealed to keep out humidity. If the resin gets too cool it may crystalize; warm it up til they disappear and its good to use again.
Call me lucky but I have had a very small percentage of cookies ever split/check/warp. My wife slops on the wax sealer and dead stacks them after it dries.
The ones in the stack below are 1" thick, as yet sealed. The plate is a 2" cookie turningfool graciously sent back as a beautiful plate. There is not a hint of a crack anywhere on it and it's somewhere around 1.25 years old(?).
last year I had a customer request 1/2" cookies for some special project, against my advice, and I asked her to let know if they cracked. I never heard from her so I don't know for sure but I take that as a no they didn't. But the funny thing is I have more problems keeping entire logs from checking than I do from 1" - 4" cookies.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12394/CookieStackColor.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12394/TomAplate2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12394/TomAplate.jpg)
Gregg, now that some time has gone by, how have red oak cookies turned out? Did they split? What steps did you take to keep them from cracking?
Since this topic has started, I now have a lady that wants a table top from her red oak log that measures about 48" in dia. I've done this before and had success with other species, but not with red oak. I may try to talk to her about an oval table top.