Within the past year I've learned how to "plunge cut" when felling timber. Cut out the face, plunge in a little behind the hinge and cut the guts out of the tree,,,, leaving a "trigger" at the backside. Hit the trigger and run. I think it's a really cool/safe way to cut trees,,, especially leaners.
A logger from Missouri once taught me "stump jumpin'". You just cut into the side of the stump and totally cut the guts out. You leave a sliver of holding wood in back and one in front,,,, no hinge at all. Like the method above you hit the trigger and it falls. The holding wood in front peels up the front of the log as it falls but it doesn't matter much since it is in the slab wood anyways (at least that's what I was told). You do this on a tree that has a definate lean to it so you know which way it will fall... With no hinge wood it is obviously not very directional. It is fast though and popular from what I gathered.
I seen a video of a guy cut the face, plunge into the middle of the face from the front and straight out the back of the tree. Then he inserted a wedge,,, it was called a tongue and groove. I thought it was neat that you could get a wedge inserted right off the bat (kind of as insurance,,,, the quicker you get a wedge in the better/safer)
Are there anymore variations of plunge cutting timber besides the one I mentioned? Pictures,links,drawings, would be appreciated!
that stump jumpin' technique sounds like its a bit dangerous especially since you could have the possibility of a barber chair from leaving too much in the front there.
The barber chair is pretty much ruled out since you leave just a real thin strip of wood in front(just enough so that the tree doesn't sit or pinch your bar). The danger is, you have 0 hinge and you have 0 control over it when it starts to fall. On the plus side, you can cut down a big oak in about 30 sec.
Quote from: Good Feller on July 02, 2008, 07:06:36 PM
A logger from Missouri once taught me "stump jumpin'".
who was it from missouri cause thats the way my dad cuts it and last time i checked he was the only one doing around here
"Stump jumpin" sounds a little dangerous to me, but I'm unfamiliar with the practice.
More then a little.
I had a guy in the office last week who used to be a logger around here. He said the fellow he worked for forbade anyone from notching hinges, because they waste too much wood. He was taught to cut halfway through a tree, then start bringing the blade around until the tree eventually fell :o. I pulled up this thread (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,26579.0.html) to show him how I fell most of my trees (reply #9). Clearly, there's not much wood missing from that tree, and it's much, much safer. Other than very small trees, I don't fell a tree any other way.
Poke around most any Missouri or Arkansas sawmills and you see a lot of felling cuts with no evidence of a hinge. No hinge is really prevalent with walnut. The biggest danger is the butt can go anyplace...I've seen em jump straight up 10 foot in the air.
Shortly after I completed GOL in 99 the Missouri Forestry Department required anybody cutting on state land to have a GOL certificate along with continuing education. That helped to at least expose loggers to a safer way of felling.
Welcome to the forum missourilogger...your lucky to be in Missouri. The MFPA subsidizes a large portion of the cost of GOL training, even if your not a member. I urge you and Dad to learn a safer and more productive way of felling.
I agree, get all education possible, then proceed with caution. If you can, tag along with more experienced fallers. The lessons I learned as a teenager have saved my rear end more than once. That's the best thing about working in the woods for me, you are learning all the time. :)
When cherry was hot a couple years ago the real nice ones were lacking a hinge of any thickness.
Stump jumping doesn't have a any place in any woods. Its unsafe and Against Osha law. Plus its hard on remaining trees. Lacking any real direction or aim once the tree starts to fall. Oldtimers say well ive done er all my life . Lucky to tell it . but then ya get to talking to em and they been cut and mashed and many saws and been wacked a few times.
The center bore and wedge is for small dia trees .Where a wedge will bottom out into hinge before max lift .
When loggers bring cedar in that has been cut without a hinge and has a piece missing on the log, I tell them no more. I won't buy their logs. The reason is that I sometimes sell architectural logs that need to have a good appearance and a missing chunk eliminates that log. Also, I don't want a chunk of wood flapping around causing problems.
A few years ago I bought a tract of cedar in Mo. I had one of the "best" cedar cutters in Mo cut for me for a few days. He could only get 1/2 of his trees to hit the ground. He said he just dumped the tree and cut into 4' sections and carried them out on his shoulder and it didn't matter if the tree lodged. He just cut up 4' and let the tree slide down and cut another 4'. So his way wouldn't work on this tract. I wanted the whole tree as I was yarding and merchandizing to certain lengths depending on the tree. I paid by the tree. Also found out he couldn't count very well. Lasted only a couple of days.
Also they split part of the butt log at times.
Open face felling is the very best way for eastern red cedar unless mechanically harvested.
Quote from: Larry on December 16, 2008, 04:39:31 PM
Welcome to the forum missourilogger...your lucky to be in Missouri. The MFPA subsidizes a large portion of the cost of GOL training, even if your not a member. I urge you and Dad to learn a safer and more productive way of felling.
thats the way he cuts and has been doing it for about 30+ years but the reason he cuts that away is its more easier to get it down and to him its more productive and hes good at it his dad taught him how to do it thats just the way he cuts i think the reason he cuts it that away is less chance of splitting
when i cut i use a humbolt notch mostly unless if its leaning alot then i use my dads technique
Quote from: Cedarman on December 17, 2008, 08:33:01 AM
I had one of the "best" cedar cutters in Mo cut for me for a few days. He could only get 1/2 of his trees to hit the ground. He said he just dumped the tree and cut into 4' sections and carried them out on his shoulder and it didn't matter if the tree lodged. He just cut up 4' and let the tree slide down and cut another 4'.
What good is a 4' piece of cedar? Especially if he was going to cut the whole tract that way.
There's a fellow close to home that cuts the same way.(4ft pieces) I figured he does it because he has a small truck and no equipment. never have talked to him. He doesn't tend to have too much on hand at any one time. He stacks it up till he gets a pickup load and then it goes away. I figere he gets a log here and therer and when he gets enough he sells it somewhere to pick up a few bucks.
Quote from: Good Feller on July 02, 2008, 07:06:36 PM
I seen a video of a guy cut the face, plunge into the middle of the face from the front and straight out the back of the tree. Then he inserted a wedge,,, it was called a tongue and groove. I thought it was neat that you could get a wedge inserted right off the bat (kind of as insurance,,,, the quicker you get a wedge in the better/safer)
Are there anymore variations of plunge cutting timber besides the one I mentioned? Pictures,links,drawings, would be appreciated!
I showed what you call the tongue and groove method to a friend which he right away called the "colombian necktie". I use it often in small diameter trees that need a little nudge.
There is one other variation of plunge cutting that is similar to the tongue and groove but for very different purposes. On larger diameter trees, those which exceed twice your bar length or for timber in which you want to prevent any stump pull from the middle of the log this method works well. Make the front notch cut establishing the front of the hinge then plunge into the front of the notch like the tongue and groove cut only you do not have to cut through to the back. This front cut can be extended left and right of center as long as you leave around 30% of the tree diameter for hinge wood on each side.
Then you can plunge in from the side or sides to establish the back side of your hinge, which is the most critical part as the back of the hinge determines the direction of fall more than the front of the hinge. Then of course you finish the back cut.
Cutting out the center wood from the front allows you to cut down a tree with a diameter that is 1 1/2 times you bar length and prevents any of the center hinge wood from "pulling" which results in a deduction at the mill yard.
Randy
Most times around here, people who notch their timber, will take the notch out of the stump!
That way, both ends of the log are square!
Timberfaller, a lot mills saw 4' cedar in Mo for the paneling market. They make a 4" x wide by 4' plus and these cants go to a mill that resaws it into thin lumber ,kiln dried, then goes through tongue and groover then through a sander and then they are tongue and grooved on the end. Pieces are cut 1',2',3',4' and put into boxes to make 15.25 square feet of paneling 5/16" thick.
You should watch one of those small sawmills saw the 4' blocks. I stood 10 feet away and I was scared. They saw 1 face on the log, then push it through a big edger. Slabs go into a hog and are made into mulch.
That's why they make 4' logs. Keeps overhead low.
Quote from: RSteiner on December 19, 2008, 06:23:17 AM
Cutting out the center wood from the front allows you to cut down a tree with a diameter that is 1 1/2 times you bar length and prevents any of the center hinge wood from "pulling" which results in a deduction at the mill yard.
Did you mean 2.5 times your bar length? I can do 1.5 by just coming at it from both sides.
John Mc
Looks like a good place to ask. Has anyone heard of notching the tree and then just above the notch, cut about a third of the way in on both sides leaving I guess you would say a reverse necktie. Then when you saw in from the back you would leave a small post in the middle to tear out. This was an old method I learned from my uncles on heavy leaners. They had a log buyer years ago show them when they were splitting the heck out of ash logs.
How does that differ from the plunge cut behind the hinge, leaving just the back cut to drop the leaning tree?
Not sure I follow what you call a reverse necktie.
What size, say on an 18" diameter would the "small post" be in the middle? Sounds like that small post could cause tearout unless it was similar in size to the hinge.
Can you draw that out for us?
Most people in my area cut cedar into 4' lengths, they sell it to shaving mills. Trying to get them to cut it 8' is like trying to pull hens teeth. They can hand carry 4' not 8'. I've even offered to pick it up at their site just pull it out, still won't do it. A place about 40 miles from me buys shaving cedar(4') then they cut 4x4's out of the bigger stuff on a scragg and sell it to a guy that makes closet lining. The slabs are shaved for poultry bedding.
Almost all of the walnut that is cut in my area is cut without a hinge. We call the style spur cutting all center is bored out leaving only the root flare in three spots holding it is then cut one spur at a time until it falls. It works well except for the lack of control.
The open face plunge cut shown by GaryC in the post from Dodgy loner is the safest way to cut by far. Took the "game of logging" courses and seen alot of oldtimers there convinced. If done right you can put trees on your mark every time with much less fiber pull and get the stump lower to ground getting the most bf possible.
Is stumpjumpin what the guys on that show axemen were doing? I kept thinking while watching this is why logging accidents are so common.
That is a humbolt cut I think on axmen.
Stonebroke
Searching for some info, came accross this:
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17590.0.html
There's some real good information in the 6 pages of postings, quite a few pictures as well. :)
Quote from: John Mc on December 19, 2008, 10:46:22 AM
Quote from: RSteiner on December 19, 2008, 06:23:17 AM
Cutting out the center wood from the front allows you to cut down a tree with a diameter that is 1 1/2 times you bar length and prevents any of the center hinge wood from "pulling" which results in a deduction at the mill yard.
Did you mean 2.5 times your bar length? I can do 1.5 by just coming at it from both sides.
John Mc
2.5 times the bar length is the correct number. ::) I guess there was a reason why I got those grades in math class after all. :)
Randy
Quote from: HOOF-ER on December 20, 2008, 02:11:29 AM
Looks like a good place to ask. Has anyone heard of notching the tree and then just above the notch, cut about a third of the way in on both sides leaving I guess you would say a reverse necktie. Then when you saw in from the back you would leave a small post in the middle to tear out. This was an old method I learned from my uncles on heavy leaners. They had a log buyer years ago show them when they were splitting the heck out of ash logs.
yep done that before, usually you bore into the center too, then cut into the tree on both sides and then drive a wedge into the center bore and there she goes.
So Good Feller,where have you been??
Hope,ya did not "stump jump" the wrong tree...
I have been learning tons from you guys and I appreciate it.
I just used the bore method on a couple of 16" oaks and I'm sold.
I'm stockpiling some logs as winter runs out and will enter the small sawmill world this spring.
You guys are the best for sharing information.
I need more practice to make it perfect but already I'm thrilled at hoe safe it is. My two oaks were leaners, towards a hay field, so steering wasn't an issue. I'm going to bring some paint out after lunch and draw the cuts out until i get better at freelancing.
Thanks again for the help.
Pratice makes perfect as the saying goes, in your case it can also make a nice pile of wood.
Some thing that hepls is to study the stump and review how the tree fell. Every tree is a little different. Looking at how your cuts lined up, the thickness of your hinge, and how that affected the direction of fall can help you next time.
One thing to remember about the hinge is that it is the back of the hinge that determines the direction of fall to the greatest degree. Most people think that the front of the hinge steers the tree, not so, the back of the hinge is what you want to get right. However, it is the front of the hinge that you make first and if your hinge wood is going to be consistant in thickness the front has to be close.
Randy
Quotethe back of the hinge that determines the direction of fall to the greatest degree
Randy;
I would say where the corners of the notch line up on the front of the tree determines the direction of fall to the greatest degree, that's why gunning sticks are used to line up the face.
The amount of holding wood in the hinge can have a great affect and even the quality of the hinge wood can cause it to go astray but generally speaking when the corners line up with the lay the tree will usually fall in that direction if the hinge holds and the tree is balanced.
Am suprised that noone has mentioned both a hot saw and a hot chain,for finite control on the stump,in conjunction with some savvy.
I'd say that if you can handmuck a run,you are lightyears away from Logging...................
Test.............
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18879/BigCedar.jpg)
Looks like that sapling had a little heart rot ;D
Yep, and no sign of a hinge either. :D
On that tree there is little that can be done to directional fell. Its going to go which ever way it's leaning. In fact there is more of a danger in notching because you may cut out what little wood that is actually holding the tree up.
I would not want to be the one that has to cut that monster. I have been scared witless on trees much smaller than that one. I cut a huge silver maple once that had heart rot like that one and thought I would never get it to fall over. I had every wedge I had stuck in that tree and they kept disappearing. Finally cut some wedges back out and stacked three before it finally moved. :)
Most have zero clue how to handle wood of that size,let alone what can be done with it on the stump...less and undercut.
If there's a hint of a lean,the options are without limit...................
Light it on fire and you can experience western fire-fighting. I have been a faller on a couple of fires, it is pretty scary at times. At least we're not trying to save any of the wood so if it falls it falls....
Here on the West Coast the Humbolt cut became a requirement in 1978 in my area, depending on the scalers anywhere up to 6' could be deducted with a open face cut.
A lot of times I'll on leaners I'll set them up and knock them down with a driver, this method works good with smaller wood also rather than wedge each one, can knock down a lot of wood in a short time.
As for side notching, on big Alders leaning I'll undercut in till the bar just starts to drag, side notch and then go for it, always have a sharp chain and enough horsepower to stay ahead of the split if it starts, my falling saws are 044,046,064,075, enough for most of what we have. Another thing I carry I call a Chicken chain, I willl wrap around above the cut on bad ones. Had one one time on a side hill leaning so bad I backed the skidder in behind it and got the grapples on it, did the back cut reaching in frombehind the skidder tire, was no other way to do it.
All I've used is the Humbolt cut, probably because it's been a requirement since I was 2 years old! Didn't know that little fact. I was taught to call setting 'em up and knocking 'em down a Russian Drive, not sure why. It's probably offensive somehow, but that's what we call it here.