Evening all, not sure if this is the right spot. Talking to a fellow from another area about sawmills. He asked if I had heard that homes can no longer be built out of rough cut lumber because it wasn't tested for structural integrity. It had no stamp so there fore could not be used to build with. He said he hadn't heard anything about out buildings and such. Well I called the city inspector here in town and he said no rough cut can be used in our parish or the twin city's. I then called the most respected lab here in town who also is a good friend and he says that it isn't so. Well I haven't finished the rebuild as yet but will anyway of course, but this is disturbing news. Is any thing like this happening any where else or is it just a rumor. Calling back to the insp. office they don't even know this guy that I mentioned I talked to the other day. I'm due to rotate home soon so I will go there in person and see. Will let you know what I find out for our area. Have a good one, Chuck
When NY went with the international building code( big Mistake) some inspectors rejected rough cut because it wasn't stamped. Under the old building code, we had a exemption put in in 1989. Farm Bureau had to scramble and get the exemption put in the new building code.You folks in other states should talk to your Farm Bureau and get it put in your codes.Best thing since sliced bread.
Stonebroke
In my township rough cut can be used on any structure that is'nt considered habitable. Garage, shed, barn,even decking. All structures considered habitable requires stamped wood.
Wonder where I can buy one of those stamps? ;D ???
Chuck,
Are you down there by Alexandria? I can't give you an answer one way or the other but I have had this conversation with another gentleman in South LA. Our solution to the question was that we would (if necessary) just have someone from the SOuthern Pine Council come on up and stamp our lumber. It wouldn't pay if you had a small quantity but if it were a major project you'd just build the expense into the job. I don't think it comes down to it being "rough cut" so much as it does "un-inspected". There are several companies in our state that do a huge business selling reclaimed wood that is both rough cut and un-inspected. I'd like to ask your city inspector how he allows wood from these vendors to go into structures in his locale. I'll be interested to hear what develops from this. Keep us posted.
LOGDOG
You can legally stamp your own wood supposedly. I was reading up on it about 3 years ago when I was contemplating grade sawing. 3 computer crashes later, there is no way i can remember where I read it.
There was some studying done on it about the time that Arkansawyer was trying to get his business financed.
Here is a fairly length thread on his 2" stamp. (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,5208.msg70609.html#msg70609) It makes some pretty good reading.
I think this "ink law" was created by big lumber company lobbyist. Again with these da*n lobbyist. White or yellow pine 2x are crap at big box stores. How some of this stuff passes as to be stamped is amazing. Home Depot in our town does sell nice fir though. Problem is it's not always avaiable. I built small addition to house couple years ago with fir studs. Even found some Hem-Fir. After inspection was done, all interior wood used from my sawmill.
Quote from: Toolman on July 28, 2008, 12:19:33 AM
I think this "ink law" was created by big lumber company lobbyist. Again with these da*n lobbyist.
No way!!! They wouldn't do something to hurt the small business owner would they?! ;)
Thanks for the reference Tom. That is certainly a good read, well a good re-read. I printed it off for later, not that I will ever really need to know it . . . hopefully. :)
Morning Logdog, yep halfway between Pineville and Marksville. When I get home I will make the time to get to town and try and have a face to face with these people. With the scare on Formosan termites I would think they had there hands full. A lot of that vintage wood is migrating north from New Orleans. Will print out the link and read tonight. Will also drop a line to Baton Rouge and see what transpires. Will let you guys know. Have a good one. Chuck
sometimes, if it is for your house, you can have a note added into the deed book at the courthouse if you purposefully do something against code. Of course this may cause you headaches down the road i.e. selling or insurance.
Actually, the grade stamp is Industry induced. That is the reason that there are different rules of use depending upon where you live. Building and Zoning departments fall into the trap and cause citizens grief by writing codes that say "Must be #2 as dictated by the Southern Pine Bureau", rather than saying "Must be equal to, or better, than #2 as dictated by the Southern Pine Bureau". I am paraphrasing, of course.
Building codes have a place. Building inspections have a place. But the interpretation of code tends to relieve the inspectors of liability, as well as relieve them from the task of gaining the knowledge to make the distinction. It allows them to look for Ink rather than the functionality of the wood.
One of the most ridiculous judgements I've heard about was a customer of mine, working off of his own approved plans, who had replaced a overhead beam on his garage with 2x12's rather than the 2x10's on the plan. He finally was able to use them, but the building inspector was adament about his taking them down because the plan called for 2x10's. My customer finally was approved by the inspector who was in charge of the department, an old time carpenter who saw the logic, the use and the wood rather than the paper plan.
We could fix a lot of this if people would just get out and vote. Find someone who has common sense and get him to run. Then vote him in. It really works. It works for tax assessors, city councilmen and all the bureaucrats who work for them. It takes time, but it won't happen if people don't get off of their duff, vote their heart and make their Government do what they expect of them.
If you don't like the building codes, get them rewritten. It takes a volume of citizens on a mission sometimes.
Our building inspector here is great. If I pull my own permits, I can use rough cut with no complaints by him as long as it seems of decent quality. Of course, I heard that he plans on retiring in the next year or so :(
Quote from: brdmkr on July 28, 2008, 11:52:29 AM
Our building inspector here is great. If I pull my own permits, I can use rough cut with no complaints by him as long as it seems of decent quality. Of course, I heard that he plans on retiring in the next year or so :(
He sounds like "old school" which translates to "common sense". I wish you folks alot of luck with his replacement.
The real issue that I have (in our area at least) is that the inspectors are poorly trained. We just had our septic system put in by guys that have been doing it for over 40 years and they warned me about the bad calls routinely made by the local inspector. Sure enough, the inspector insisted that our fields had to be located 100' from our above ground rainwater tank. The tank sets on ground that is 50' from and 15' above the place that I wanted to put the fields and the location that he wanted me to use is set aside for my equipment shed to be built on. No amount of talking would change his mind so I asked to file for a variance to be considered by the council. He said he'd check out the regulations and talk with the council and call me back. When the installers came back the next day and started digging the fields in the spot that I had originally selected, I was surprised to learn that 50' separation was the distance in the regs. But the guy never called me back. He did come back to check and approve the system before it could be covered. This guy is probably overworked and expected to cover all kinds of health inspections...but this is what I hate about the system. His mistake would have caused a complete change to my building plans had I not insisted on a variance hearing. The sad thing is that this is not a rare incident, it's common that the rules don't fit the situation but they are still blindly applied by the inspectors.
I've been wondering about this same thing in my area, and have asked around recently about it.
From what I've gathered (ie heard from local sawyers)... in our county, as long as the roof rafters and floor joists are stamped and graded, you're OK. Studs and plates and everything else can be rough-sawn. There are a couple of guys around that will come out and stamp and grade lumber, but it costs$$.
I'll call the county inspector here in the next bit and find out the "official" word...
-Norm.
When we built a potato packing shed back 20 years ago. All we had to follow was engineered plans from a P Eng. We harvested all our own timber and hauled it to a local mill to be sawed. It was not dressed or kilned or graded by anyone. 8)
When we adopted the I codes our old inspector moved up and we got a new one. Lumber was required to be gradestamped. So I went down to GA for 4 days to get trained at my expense. I took the class hoping he would respect that. My partner at the table became the new auditing grader overseeing graders in a region. He was a nice kid, fresh out of college, a business major. The first house I remember working on was 40 years ago, I grew up in the trade. Our inspector explained he couldn't allow me to grade without a stamp, which I can get, it costs hundreds of dollars per month. So I'm trained but still can't stamp. I helped get our inspectors a 1 day seminar delivered to them at no expense, in fact they got continuing ed points for it. I hoped they would see that I had walked as far towards them as I possibly could and was trying to operate within the spirit of the law. So the fellow that signed my ticket on the left there came up from GA with an instructor. The inspectors got bored and walked out of the seminar at lunch and told me to change the law if I wanted to grade lumber. I took 2 donuts from their tray. So for a few grand I've got a pretty piece of paper. Your mileage will vary wildly ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/tpcert.jpg)
About a month after the seminar I watched an entire warehouseful of bootleg stamped lumber move through our county. None of the inspectors ever noticed a thing ::). I've seen more, but they probably never will. The stamp absolves them of liability and that is all the county attorney is worried about.
I checked into this several years ago. Called the SPIB in Florida. Was told I could get certified for a few hundred dollars, but, the SAWMILL would get the stamp. IT had to be in a fixed location, and be in operation, at least 5 years, if I remember correctly.
I also found out, SPIB is a PRIVATE, NON-PROFIT outfit.
Liability ???
They are ALL controlling and NO resources. How does one sue a NON-PROFIT outfit ??? They HAVE NOTHING. What does this tell you ???
GO ARKY. New York State beat this Hoax. Why can't everyone ???
As I see it, it's NOT the lumber that fails, it's the CONNECTIONS that fail. ::) ::) ::)
The minute you become trained to actually recognize the difference between an acceptable and an inferior piece of lumber you will have me on board. Thus far I've not seen one sawyer attempt to become legitimately knowledgeable. Who's promoting a hoax? This is ultimately about life safety.
Can't argue safety, Don, BUT, My grandfather, my Uncles and myself, NEVER used stamped lumber, and NOTHING we ever built fell down, OR crashed from using COMMON sense lumber ???
The stuff at the Box Stores, which MOST people use, is atrocious. BUT, it's stamped as #2. I've seen 3 BIG knots in one area on 2 X 12's, that would NOT hold the board together if anyone stood on it, as it was supported on each end. THAT is Common Sense Lumber.
Maybe if we shoot all the Lawyers, and make the Inspectors PAY ATTENTION, and use FULL SIZED Lumber, the people could get better--AHHhhh what's the use ??? Noone cares.
building codes were initially put into place to protect home owners against very shoddy craftsmanship, and worse than shoddy craftsmanship, are the folks that would use things they knew were no good.
not everybody uses that "common sense".
I took a short course hardwood lumber grading. Lumber grading isn't rocket science, it's applying the rules to a piece of wood. the stamp end of the softwood business is an unfair business practice, and maybe the way to tackle that problem is through your legislature. I'm not even sure how to find a class on softwood lumber grading.
We are in an extreme minority when it comes to this, and the small guys are way behind the curve.
I built my house in NC 12 years ago. The building inspectors said that I couldnt use lumber that wasnt grade stamped ( and were real jerks about it ). My uncle was friends with the top inspector for the state and he sent me a highlighted copy of the code that said if you build the house on the same land the wood was cut from it did not have to be grade stamped. I went back and asked them if it was a county ordanince or a state law that said I couldnt use my wood, they got mad and loud and told me it was a state law. So I gave them the paper , they called the # on the paper and during the rest of my dealings with them they were very nice ;)
Good thread guys. The house is feeling small with the three kids, I may NEED this info soon.
Ironwood
Quotebuilding codes were initially put into place to protect home owners against very shoddy craftsmanship, and worse than shoddy craftsmanship, are the folks that would use things they knew were no good.
JAIL TIME This is not a new topic on the Forum. Guys have said NEW Inspectors want AUTHORITY, while the OLDER inspectors try to rein them in.
Guys, I KNOW why the Regulations were passed. Problem is, I have seen MANY Inspectors pull into job sites, sign off on forms, and receive envelopes through the window. >:( >:(
I remember when 2 X lumber was still offered in LUMBER yards. Then, I watched it go to 1-5/8" thick. NOW, it's 1½" thick. It's all about BIG MONEY paying off Politicians.
Someone mentioned being a small minority. I would guess there's MANY more small mills out there than BIG mills. It's NOT the minority, it's the unwillingness of ALL Small mill operators to stand up and GET the POLITICOS to do THEIR job, which is to oversee those that are in the position of Inspecting, to DO THEIR JOB.
I have NEVER seen where a failed construction of a house or Apartment, involved JAIL TIME and pulling of contractors license. :o :o THAT is what's necessary, but, letting things slide and fines are the way to do business today. :o :o
Down here, it's getting MORE regulation. No stamping required yet, that I KNOW of. You can build a new house up to 900 SQ.ft, WITHOUT a permit, last I knew. Doesn't NEED Inspecting. OVER 900 sq.ft needs a PERMIT, I'm sure, for tax purposes.
Doesn't anyone think a 900 sq.ft house can collapse and kill an entire family ??? ???
Down here, If you leave a piece of the old house standing, you can rebuild to your hearts content, without a permit, I'm pretty sure. Fred will surely let me know otherwise.
Build a house with unstamped lumber, IF the lumber came from the same place the house was built ??? HOW does that make sense ??? ??? See how the regs are flawed, just the way the Politicos want them ???
UNUFF ranting. ;D ;D I gotta go build some Doors and a Kitchen with UNSTAMPED Lumber. ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
NO offence intended DonP. OK ???
Don P brings up some good points about safety. However, I would guess as FDH pointed out that many structures have been built without stamped lumber that have, and will stand the test of time. Many examples are still standing that were built prior to having any such governing rules. That in itself should be all the proof that is needed. I have seen much of this so called lumber myself at the box stores and refuse to use it. Most of it is junk, plain and simple.
I guess I cannot grade and stamp lumber legally like they can. But, as Arky and many others have pointed out here before, I'm able to tell a good board from a bad board. It appears as though that's more than I can say for some that inspect and stamp graded lumber that is available to the general public in the box stores. This is truly a sad state of affairs IMHO. I do believe that this kind of thing will not change until enough sheeple are fed up up and challenge the system. I personally challenge the local building/ governing body on a regular basis. I've had much success in doing this. Just not enough people do it.
Don P brings up some good points about safety. However, I would guess as FDH pointed out that many structures have been built without stamped lumber that have, and will stand the test of time. Many examples are still standing that were built prior to having any such governing rules. That in itself should be all the proof that is needed. I have seen much of this so called lumber myself at the box stores and refuse to use it. Most of it is junk, plain and simple.
I guess I cannot grade and stamp lumber legally like they can. But, as Arky and many others have pointed out here before, I'm able to tell a good board from a bad board. It appears as though that's more than I can say for some that inspect and stamp graded lumber that is available to the general public in the box stores. This is truly a sad state of affairs IMHO. I do believe that this kind of thing will not change until enough sheeple are fed up up and challenge the system. I personally challenge the local building/ governing body on a regular basis. I've had much success in doing this. Just not enough people do it.
BCK, I was just about to reply here when you posted an excellent illustration of my first point. :) Dealing with a Building Inspector is a human interaction. If you approach it as such, instead of as a "me vs Gov't" matter, it will be a lot more pleasant and productive. The inspector can be your best friend or your worst enemy, and most of the time you get to choose which one you'd rather deal with. In my County, all of them are ex-tradesmen, and have been on your side of the fence before. They are knowledgable, but usually are expert in only one field, though they are required to inspect all the trades. They have a set of rules that their boss requires them to follow, and their job depends on how well they follow it. The Code is a huge volume and nobody know's it all, but I have found that they will call the office and have someone look up a rule they aren't familiar with, IF you haven't already *pithed them off. Try to remember that you aren't dealing with your wife here; It is NOT easier to get forgiveness than permission! :D If he finds something he doesn't like, you could say something like, "Boy, I'm glad you caught that!" instead of chewing him out about it. Then ask him if he knows an easy fix for it. If he gets the feeling that you're trying to pull the wool over his eyes, it will be You vs Inspector & Gov't. If he finds that you are trying to do it right, it will be You & Inspector vs Gov't. Try to show him that you realize his personal predicament. He is caught in the middle a dozen times every day, and the slightest hint that you sympathize with his plight will put him on your side immediately. If you have a major problem with the interpretation of the rules, take a lesson from bck and show them that you've done your homework better than they have.
As far as the lumber is concerned, remember that you are dealing with the BUILDING inspector, not the lumber inspector. If he see's a stamp, he assumes that somebody has already inspected that, so he doesn't have to, just like he doesn't have to re-inspect the foundation every time he comes out. If you buy cheap lumber from a box store, you should expect to find a lot of culls in the stack. You'll probably save money in the long run if you buy from a reputable lumber yard. I was originally planning to cut all my own framing, but practicality ruled out in the end. It just wasn't worth the hassle of getting it approved, not to speak of all the work involved in getting it all sized after drying. ::)
Quote from: bck on July 29, 2008, 08:29:16 AM
I built my house in NC 12 years ago. The building inspectors said that I couldnt use lumber that wasnt grade stamped ( and were real jerks about it ). My uncle was friends with the top inspector for the state and he sent me a highlighted copy of the code that said if you build the house on the same land the wood was cut from it did not have to be grade stamped. I went back and asked them if it was a county ordanince or a state law that said I couldnt use my wood, they got mad and loud and told me it was a state law. So I gave them the paper , they called the # on the paper and during the rest of my dealings with them they were very nice ;)
HOW DARE YOU QUESTION SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY. These arrogant clowns are'nt used to people questioning them and challenging them. It's amazing how different these people act when they know you will check and challenge them. Way to go!
We had a zoning inspector in our twp. who apparantly was picked on in school. This guy walked and talked as if you were just a nobody. I attended a twp. zoning hearing regarding a variance and fell out my chair with laughter when a resident told our inspector that he was'nt as mad at him as he was at the kid who left him out of his hallway locker back in school.
Toolman,
I've had the exact same kind of dealings with our local inspectors and government in general. That is why I challenge them on practically everything. IMHO they've run AMOK and they treat us little folk like we're a bunch of idiots. They think they have ultimate power over their dominion. Problem is, many of these positions are appointed and not elected. Case in point: The head of the zoning board is a corrupt individual that was appointed about 25 years ago. You want to split a lot as an individual homeowner or something like that, forget it. Now, on the other hand, If you're a builder and use his personal heating and cooling company for your hvac needs in your new home. Well, then things are different. You can get whatever you want. Just as FDH said, the envelopes do go through the truck window. We can't get rid of the SOB. It would be nice if you could deal with them as DanG said, and I would highly encourage anyone to do so if you can. However, in my area I can't really use the diplomatic approach anymore. We've plowed that ground too many times and it was always them telling me what I coukld and could not do. They know me on a first name basis. Not in a good way either.
Quote from: DanG on July 29, 2008, 09:57:35 AM
It is NOT easier to get forgiveness than permission! :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm about to have a go round with my local building fellas. I'm going to inquire about the current regs regarding rough sawn here. It used to be you had to go a size larger than the plans called for. 2X6 instead of 2X4 etc. But i've heard it's changed and they're real sticky about it now. This house was built with green rough sawn big tooth aspen and is still standing 14 years later ;D ;D
This is what I like about the Forum, I now have all kind of back ground and ways to approach these guys next week in town. But I must confess I slipped up a couple years ago and had some 8' 2x6's on the trailer when I went to town. The wife had found some tile she liked at that store you can't get help at. I went and bought it, took me about 2 hours with all the other things I was doing and then met her for lunch. Time I got home I had 3 messages on the machine to call them back they were interested in where I got that rough sawed lumber. I plum forgot that I had my last name and phone number written on one of them unstamped boards. Have a nice day. Chuck
QuoteAHHhhh what's the use Noone cares.
Pretty much the way I feel on the subject :)
Quote from: Tom on July 28, 2008, 11:19:45 AM
We could fix a lot of this if people would just get out and vote. Find someone who has common sense and get him to run. Then vote him in. It really works. It works for tax assessors, city councilmen and all the bureaucrats who work for them. It takes time, but it won't happen if people don't get off of their duff, vote their heart and make their Government do what they expect of them.
If you don't like the building codes, get them rewritten. It takes a volume of citizens on a mission sometimes.
Unfortunately, Tom, the system has become such, that anyone with common sense is highly unlikely to have any desire to become part of the political scrapple.
Fundamentally, only those who are adept at having their way pointed for them, create backing and success. Without being that way, it is like walking into a room full of toxic gas, without a gas mask.
In the grand scheme of things this is not a big enough issue to make or break a canidate. I know this for a fact around here. Our rep got one fewer vote.
SPIB Grade books can be bought here for those interested
http://www.spib.org/publicationslisting.shtml?/publications.
NeLMA grade publications are here for download, section 5 is the most pertinent;
http://www.nelma.org/index.php?module=StaticContent&func=display&scid=10
I was given permission to post any of the NGR manual, its kind of bulky but if there are ever specific questions I'd be happy to.
On a related off topic, I just got my copy of the new Standard on the Design and Construction of Log Structures. I did participate in the public commentary it is now a code referenced document. With shipping $33. 50 pages... yup the code folks are non profit ::)
In NY State you CAN use unstamped lumber as the building codes are written. All that you need is for the sawyer to sign a statement that the lumber is number 2 or better. There is no requirement for formal training for the sawyer.
I have house plans drawn and stamped by a professional engineer specifying rough cut sawyer certified lumber. And I am the sawyer. As I figure it I can look at what they offer at the big box stores and if it isn't better than that I will burn it in my evaporator when making maple syrup.
Yum Yum, love that maple syrup. :-* :-*
OUCH,
I know I will get chewed up on this but I need to put my 2 cents in.
I'm one of them thar code guys you have been refering to as %&#@ & then some. I came from the trades and agree with some of the issues with code interpretations by officials. But I can also say I have seen home owners build roofs with 2x4's 2' OC spanning 12'. Wiring I wouldn't dare turn on & plumbing that tries to flow uphill with no vents. We are a reactive society & everytime something happens we create a new rule, law or regulation to prevent another tragedy from occuring. I also admit I had issues with my predecessor while I was building my house. The guy was telling me about improper loads & didn't know what he was talking about.
DanG had it right when dealing with inspectors. We are people too and shouldn't be judged as a group. I'm not writing because my feelings were hurt. I've had my life threatened several times & my hide is pretty tough now.
jim
Well, I'm glad I ain't the one that pithed off the building inspector! :D :D :D I'm glad you chimed in, Jim. It's great to know that we have someone here that is on "the other side." You could probably help to clear up a lot of code questions.
Did ya ever notice how some folks seem to have trouble with every human interaction they have? The ones I know can't even go to Walmart without getting ticked off about something. They ALWAYS seem to think that everybody else is the butthole! ::) :D
Jim,
I'm glad you chimed in too. I don't think they're all bad and should be put in the same category with a broadbrush approach. However, it seems to me that some of them, (mostly the younger ones with something to prove), are on some kind of a power trip. Other people in my area feel the same way too. Never, had any trouble with the older fella he was a pretty straight shooter and made sense too. He understood working with folks. Especially in situations when you're doing a re-model and certain things can't be changed. When he retired he was replaced by a rather young fella with very little experience and a hard nose approach to boot. Out to change the world I guess? Anyway, I tried very hard to reason with him on several issues but it was his way or the highway on everything. So, I sent him down that highway and told him not to come back. Ever! Haven't had a problem since. Of course now, I just do what I need to do and don't involve them because he's still there.
SeeSaw
Jim
I wonder, Did you ever reject someone because he was using rough cut lumber?
Stonebroke
Stonebroke,
Let's see, I have a woodmizer lt40hd. Been around lumber most of my life. Make moulding and do a little design work. All of which I don't do in the Town I work in.
As far as rejecting someone for using rough cut lumber I would have to say an emphatic no. But, I have rejected framing members being used as structural components. (large knots in the middle of the span). My only issue using roughcut in homes is making sure the lumber has been dried to the proper moisture levels. Thats for conventional framing. Log homes & timberframes are a different story.
Seesaw,
I know what you mean about over zealous, inexperienced inspectors. I have one local contractor who almost shot an inspector from the town next to us. The guy showed up at his job site flashing his badge and yelling "cease & decist" (I think that means stop what your doing). Anyway It still makes me laugh a little when I think about this bozo.
The Finnish building code declares that timber which is sorted on site by a carpenter is considered equal to grade T24. This is a low grade but it is cheaper to overbuild a little than to get the wood stamped. In my oppinion this is a fair compromize.
Lets see what troble that "dang" new Eurocode will cause us......
AWW, c'mon JD, Tell us what you really think. :D :D
I have built enough stuff and it has been interementially(sp) enough that I know that I can not keep up with codes.
Best thing to do is sit down with the local inspecter ahead of tme and talk things out, see what you need.