I am building a 22' x 20' (inside dimension) log cabin. I will be moving the walls from my building yard to the cabin site near Hinckley, Mn. My site is very remote, so getting materials to the area is very tough (I have to skid everything 1 mile with a tractor).
I need to make a decision on the material for the main support beams soon. I don't have access to the span tables I would need to calculate loads (live and dead), so if anyone can help based on experience, software, or calculation I sure would appreciate it.
Details are below:
Cabin is made of Red Pine, walls have about 40 logs (10 rounds per side), roof and loft structure will have about 20 more logs. Logs are 22'-24' long with 12"-14" butts and 8"-10" tops. They weigh about 500-600 lbs each.
I want to use Poplar for the main support beams and potentially the roof (here in Mn Poplar = Quaking Aspen).
I plan on three support beams; I dug 42" holes for footers so I can install 3 posts per beam (beams will be about 22' and span the 20' side of the cabin). On the beams I plan to use 2x10 floor joists with plenty of blocking covered with 3/4" plywood. The logs will sit directly on the plywood. I am hoping to use Poplar for the three main support beams as I have tons of it on my property.
Specific Question:
Note: There are no building codes or inspectors to deal with on this project.
1. Will Poplar work for the support beams? What size? I will, likely, flatten a few places for posts and use the whole log with shallow grooves cut in the top for the joists.
2. Are three posts per beam enough? I could go with 5, but then I need to tote in more sack-crete. I would like to avoid installing more posts unless needed.
2. Are 2x10" floor joists on 12" centers enough?
Everything is manual, so I don't want to overbuild; however, I would like to make sure things are reasonably strong.
Jon
www.peelinglogs.blogspot.com
Looks like we need loft location and dimensions and local design snow load. You may have no inspector, you do have codes. We still obey the law even if there is no sheriff in town ;)
Quaking Aspen, what I would call popple has these design values in #2 grade, sawn such that sawing or shaving does not exceed 3/10 of the radius of the log at any point.
Fb-975 psi
E-.9*106
Fv-115 psi
Fc perp-245 psi
Unsawn- allowable Fb jumps to 1400 psi
While waiting for info lets check the floor joists;
Looks like the joist span is 11' at 12" ctrs you're overbuilding I think I can set up the AWC calc to show the correct answer, you can play with it to adjust if you want.
Span Calc (http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp?species=Spruce-Pine-Fir&size=2x8&grade=No.+2&member=Floor+Joists&deflectionlimit=L%2F360&spacing=16&wet=No&incised=No&liveload=40&snowload=-1&deadload=10&submit=Calculate+Maximum+Horizontal+Span)
So what I used there was #2 SPF 2x8's at a 40/10 loading 16" on center and it passed at typical deflection limits. You can go to 2x10's and 12" centers, it will hold more than our beams will I'll bet ;). But it would be stiff.
Also is the loft going to have a post bearing down at midspan? Right now I'm envisioning the loft running 22'x10' If Im guessing right?
I knew the name of your town sounded familiar, the Great Fire,
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1977/5/1977_5_90.shtml
Thanks for the help Don. Info below:
Design snow load for Pine County, MN is 60 PSF.
The loft will be 11' x 20', it sits over a bedroom, so I could run a post (with screw jack) at mid-span. I don't plan on running a post unless needed. The loft joist logs will be about 22', they will be lock-notched into the walls, and flattened for decking. I will likely run 4 loft joists.
The main beams will be flattened just enough to sit on the pier (6" flat on the bottom) at each pier and a 4" flat or grooves on the top for the joists. So, I won't be talking much off the log.
Gotcha,
I'm understanding the loft joists running in the same direction as the beams underneath the house, the ridge runs perpendicular to them?
Also the dimensions of the roof in plan (birds eye) view... I'm guessing outside dimensions on the house are 22x24 and then 2' overhangs all around, for 26x28 of snow loaded area?
No post on loft joists, 20' span at 40" centers ??? I'm needing about a 15" diameter on those :o
You are right on the joists and birds eye view.
Jon
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/cabin.JPG)
There's my understanding so far. Brown lines are the beams underfloor. The red line is the ridge.
here's loads so far;
1st floor 440 sf@40/10=22,000 lbs
logs-24,000 lbs
loft-11,000 lbs
Roof+snow+extra logs=63,000 lbs
Total=120,000 lbs design load
Right now we have 9 piers the load on each is a bit different according to floor, roof ,loft areas but it looks like some of them are taking about 25,000 lbs. If the soils are good for 2,000 psf that's about a 42" square footing. It would need to be thick enough and reinforced to prevent punch thru. That is a pure guess on soil capacity, the range is huge.
Next thing I realized we need to know is the roof system. Is it purlins bearing on the gable walls or common rafters bearing on the eave walls?
You asked a simple question and I'm delving perhaps too deep, let me back up and give you some of my thoughts about the load paths. Being log construction we basically have beams transferring load to the perimeter piers irrespective of the beams below. This is true except where a doorway(s) break through the log wall. So really if there are piers on each side of any doors then the beams are really only taking the 1st floor load. The piers are taking all other loads, distributed through the log wall "beams" to them. This holds true as long as no internal posts land somewhere in a underfloor beam span other than over the middle post, (thinking midpost for the loft here, stack it over the underfloor pier if you do one).
If that makes sense, are you good with just sizing the underfloor beams for the main floor? If you want to support sections of "broken" wall on the beams, then we need to keep going down this path, I'll need door locations, they would need to be over the beams.
I'm off to the showers but will check back with you tomorrow.
Don,
I really appreciate all your effort and input. I follow your logic. I agree that the piers have some big time loads, more so than I was thinking to begin with. I was very concerned with main support beam size; however, looking at your data it is clear that footing size and foot-print looks to be very critical. I am ok with sizing beams for first floor loads.
On your drawing
If north is up, my loft will be on the east ½ of the building (you show it on the west).
North Wall - Two windows...on the west side of the wall the window is 4' x 4', on the east side of the wall the window is 2' wide by 3' tall.
East Wall – no windows or doors
West Wall - no windows or doors
South Wall – Two Windows and one door...each window is 4' x 4'. The door is on the east end of the wall. Windows and doors are spaced roughly equal distant along the wall.
The roof system will be post and purlin (dimensional lumber will be used for common rafters on the purlins). 3 Posts will bear on each gable wall (one post for the ridge, and one post for each pulin). The rafter will rest on the ridge, the purlin, and the cap log (top log on the 22' side).
Soil – I am not sure of the rating or how to find out. I put a call into some local soil guys. Near my cabin is a similar sized log cabin (square logs) without a loft. This cabin sits on grade (with no footings) and is supported by standard concrete blocks. It is built on 2" x 12" dimensional lumber with no main support beams. There are 8 concrete blocks that support the perimeter and two blocks under the cabin. The cabin has been in this configuration for years; everything is still level.
When I dug the holes at my property, there is a bit of rock near the surface, about 6" down I hit clay like soil that was not real sticky, the deeper I dug, the harder the clay. At 42" the clay is very hard (and not much fun with a manual post-hole digger).
Additional questions:
1. Will additional piers help me, or I am better off just increasing the size of the current piers and footings?
2. 42" square footing, man, that's a lot of digging by hand and hauling in sack-crete. Is there anyway to minimize this?
I am heading to Hinckley this weekend to dig some more holes and start pouring footings. So if you have any thoughts specific to the footing, let me know. Right now, I'm thinking I will need big holes and a re-enforced footer that is pretty thick. Then, to minimize the sack-crete hauling, off the footers, I can install piers made of standard concrete block. Posts can then be installed on the concrete block piers.
Jon
Jon,
I do run into the comparison to existing buildings dilemma frequently. Yes there are always old ones that have held up that we can point to, some have done well, many are gone, all I can say is these are the current standards. Most of these standards are concerned with natural events that might occur once every 50+ years. In one seminar the professor asked why these old buildings are still standing, he concluded that they have never seen design load. Usually there is at least a 2:1 safety margin on these types of things nowadays because failure can and has involved loss of life. To my knowledge only one house I've built has seen above design load, when a hurricane flattened every other building on the farm. I'd say we are pushing one side of the pendulum's swing. I also don't want to lead you astray, I've been trying to do a little reading here, to my understanding a pier type foundation is not addressed by code. My read is that using the prescriptive provisions of the code, they want them all to be on continuous footings. This is entering into an engineers territory.
Looking at the numbers and the possible pier sizes the other end of the pier column started worrying me. If we do hit those kinds of post loads the underfloor beams are going to be crushed by the posts unless they are about 10x10's, and the beams aren't going to be big enough to give us that kind of surface. I'm leaning towards more, smaller, piers. This also gives more redundancy and makes the floor stiffer. The redundancy means that if one pier is damaged or hit or whatever it is less critical to the building. I think the effort would be about the same, more, smaller, rather than few larger footings. It'll cost more posts but that's about it the way I'm seeing it. Checking the book I'm guessing we are talking a 2000 psf soil at best.
I need to go clean up this mornings work, been mixing and pouring concrete, I know your predicament ;D, but I figured I'd post this in case I miss you heading out.
If you go with 3 piers on the middle log beam I'm coming up with 11" midspan diameter with no more than 1/8" per foot taper, or 10-3/8" small end minimum log.
Lets look at 4 piers under each of the other beams;
120,000 lbs, we just put part of the main floor load on the middle pier under the floor, so less 5,500=114,500lbs
Divide that up among 10 perimeter piers= 11,450 pounds per if the load is uniform, the loft is heavier to one end, but I think we can say the logs do help spread the load more than I was giving them credit for last night, call it about 13,000 per pier ???. divide that by the beam crush strength of 245 psi, we need at least 53 square inches bearing on the top of the pier posts. A dressed 6x6 is 30.25 square inches, a double post at each pier would be plenty or lose the posts, a 16" long piece of 2x6 on top of a block pier would be 88 square inches. I like that.
13,000 divided by 2000 psf soil = 6.5 sf of footing needed
square root that=2.54' on a side x12= 30.59" on a side. I think that's getting pretty good.
Footing projection beyond the block cannot exceed thickness, 30-8=22, divide in half, 11 inches projection each side so 11 inches min footing thickness.
If they are about 11" deep we have 5.9 cu ft/hole. A 80lb sack is 2/3 cu ft, we just threw ~9 bags/hole. You should put a couple of bars each way in the footing as well.
I'm still not loving it, that's only about 2-1/2 yards for the whole deal but its around 2 pallets of sackrete :-\. I've been using pea gravel, sand and portland here and doing about a yard a day. It sorta resembles prison labor :).
Don,
Thanks again for all the information; your input is very helpful. I got your message on Friday that "more is better." Over the weekend I took a good look at what I had. I decided to go with 5 piers on the outer two beams and will likely stay with 3 on the middle beam. I've been thinking all along that 3 piers may not be enough. And since I already dug three holes per beam, it will be easier to add two more holes to the outer beams.
I spent the weekend hauling sack-crete, mixing sack-crete, and filling holes. Oh, yeah, I have to haul in the water, too. You said mixing cement by hand was like prison labor—that would be an understatement. When I was looking for land I wanted remote, well I got remote. Every weekend I get to test the capacity of my pick up hauling materials to Hinckley and then, thank god, I have an old Oliver 880 with a front end loader for skidding in materials. It is slow as sin for hauling through the woods; however, when you compare this to hauling materials by hand, it is pretty quick.
I have 9 holes dug, 5 holes filled. The holes are not quite where you calculate, a little smaller in diameter, a little deeper. I have 2 to 2 ½ yards per hole. The rebar I used was placed vertical. On the remaining footers I will put some rebar in the horizontal direction and probably expand the holes a bit.
The log size you mentioned for beams looks good, I happen to have a number of poplar that I cut to clear the cabin site, these trees are 12" butt and 11" at 25" so they should work.
I also have many pieces of oak that I will likely use for the piers. Since they are on the property (so the price is right) and I had to cut and haul them, I should probably make use of them. I will probably peel them, treat them with some Penetreat, and then coat them with motor oil. I've used this process on a number of log structures that sat directly on the ground (with no footing) for 10-15 years and the logs are still fine.
I do not fully understand your comment on surface area between the beam and post. Let me know if the following is correct:
I have 12" diameter oak piers. I can probably cut a flat in the poplar beam that is 6" wide x 12" long without affecting the strength. That gives me ballpark 60 square inches of contact between the beam and the pier. This is good, because it is more than the 53 square inches. The same would hold true if I used my chainsaw and ripped the oak pieces into 6" x 10" piers.
This week, I will put together the supplies and rigging for a portable gin pole that I will use to place the beams and logs. I'm looking forward to this project, because I understand what I am doing and don't have to think so hard.
Jon.
jander3
Very exciting project you have going.
I'm wondering why you don't have a heavy duty 2-wheel trailer to pull behind the Oliver, and haul as much as a pick-up load at a time into your site.
Just curious here... ::) ::) :)
Hey Jon,
Sounds like you had a right productive weekend. It sounds like you followed me on the minimum pier dimensions to avoid crushing the sides of the aspen beams.
I sure hope theres a math error in your pour quantity, a yard is 27 cubic feet 3'x3'x3'. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but if you hauled, mixed, and poured 50,000lbs of concrete this weekend, I am not gonna call you Tiny ;D
I got one of those 250 gallon square plastic totes when we were doing our work. Then put a pair of lift pins thru the lower sides of a 55 gallon drum and a U shaped strap of steel at the top lip for the top link. It had a removeable lid. I put a hosebib near the bottom and would drive uphill of the tote, which was uphill of the site. I could then keep a good supply up by the house site.
Don,
Actually, I have about 10-12 60# bags per pier.
Beenthere,
I spent my trailer dollars on log arches. I purchased one from Logrite (Jr. Arch) and had a local welder weld up an arch with a winch that I can hook up to my tractor. That way I can tote 25' logs (supported on both ends) that are already cut and scribed into the site. I have about 1/2 day invested in every log, so I don't want to screw them up hauling them in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01854.jpg)
For materials, I lash a couple of 2"x12" to the back of the tractor, secure the supplies with truck straps, and load up the bucket with extra things. I can generally get one pickup load at time back to my cabin site.
I like the Oliver, :) is it diesel?
The tractor is an Oliver 880...gas powered. I don't know what year it is, but she starts every time in the Minnesota winter. Even after sitting for a couple of weeks with temperature below zero (gotta plug up the water heater for 10 minutes or so first).
I purchased this tractor (with a front end loader) so I could lift the logs up on to my walls. It has come in very handy for skidding supplies, toting cement, pulling stumps, and any other task that needs a little power.
Tractor cost $3,000; it cost me $360 to move it to Hinckely. Best money I ever spent. I can't imagine the time an effort it would take to do the log work by hand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01785.JPG)
Corey lifting a 26' log that was notched and scribed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01803.JPG)
Moved the tractor from the building yard to the cabin site near Hinckley, Minnesota.
I'm sure you know to be careful with using a narrow front ended tractor with a loader. They aren't real stable with the bucket high and a load slightly unbalanced, even worse on an incline and moving.
Nice balancing act with the log, Dana has a good point. Keep up the pictures we like to see what you are building.
jander3
I see some additional write-up in your log cabin blog on your progress. Good luck getting the material moved this week. I'm sure you are concerned over the 'mover' handling the logs with care so you don't end up with any breakage.
Appreciate your pics and story (hope that truck fits down the road for you).
:)
This gin pole was designed so one man can move it, raise it, and use it. I kept the pole height at 12' so it can be moved around.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01956.JPG)
Moving the gin pole around the work site.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01957.JPG)
Hooked up the rigging (main guy, chain-fall, and forward safety)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01958.JPG)
Equipment in position.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01959.JPG)
Raising the gin pole using the chain fall.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01963.JPG)
Adjusting the rear guy line.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01964.JPG)
Lifting an oak (about 550#). I just needed to get it up off the ground so I could slide some stumps under the tree . And, I wanted to test out the equipment.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01969.JPG)
This is the top of the gin pole. The pulley is designed so I can install a winch; then, I have either chain-fall or winch for lifting.
Pretty slick, jander... keep the pics coming!
-Norm.
Beenthere,
Thanks. I am moving the logs on Thursday. Leaves are falling everywhere; it's been raining for days. So the road I have to run the log truck down will be tight and muddy and slippery. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: to access my place, this tight and muddy and slippery road runs through 80 acres of Indian Property (another story) and I assured the band that I won't tear it up.
Don,
One more question. I cut the Poplar I was going to use -- nice trees, 15" diameter; however, they were full of heart-rot (didn't notice till I cut them, and hauled them, and set them up for work). I am not ready to get after the other Poplar on the property because I need to cut a road first. After half a day of cutting and hauling trees that were crap and some internet research when I returned home, I now know how to identify heart-rot before cutting down the tree.
What size Oak do you think is needed for the main support beams? I have plenty that are close by. I have three 25' Oaks cut that I can put a flat on both sides and still have about 7"- 8" of tree (butt is about 11"-12"; top is about 8"-9"). The flat would be probably 5" on small end and 10" on the larger end. The beam will sit on top of the stumps (about 12" diameter) which sit on the footings I dug earlier (3 beams, 5 piers on the outside beams, 3 piers on the center beam). Floor joists (2" x 6") will sit directly on the beams.
I can certainly cut some bigger oaks and flatten them with my chainsaw. However, if these work, it will save me a day or two.
You can see the Oak and the stumps in the Portable Gin Pole thread.
Jon
jander:
So, how do you think it worked for you?
Jim Rogers
I think we were assuming the beams needed to handle the floor load in bending and stiffness and the total building load on the perimeter in crushing. I haven't checked crushing, oak is good for 800-825 lbs per square inch there. I'll let you figure that on your pier tops.
I think the sides on 5 posts are ok, the middle is where to put the best, largest one. I'm thinking it needs to be at least around 8.5" diameter with the same skimming rules in good material. If you have to hunt a new one go bigger than that. Double check the joists, my gut says 2x8 but I haven't checked that.
Good luck with your project :).
I spent four days moving my cabin walls. Grapple truck and pup trailer from the building yard up to the staging area. Then, I moved the logs one at time back through the woods using two log arches and an ATV. It took three full days of hauling to get all the logs back to the site.
I cut the windows and doors at the building site. Big mistake. This probably cost me an extra day in hauling. Dealing with the small pieces was very frustrating and very time consuming.
Using two log arches and an ATV allowed me to complete this work alone as my son (who was supposed to be helping me) ended up sick.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01922.JPG)
The walls assembled in the building yard. A logger moved these to the staging area. Easy to load, easy to unload with a grapple (loading and unloading time was about one hour).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02024.JPG)
This is how the cabin currently looks. Logs were marked and toted into the cabin site one at a time. This operation was one big pain in the tail.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02030.JPG)
Moving the log arches to fetch a log.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02017.JPG)
The log is supported on both ends to prevent damage. I wasn't too sure about using the Logrite Junior Log Arch. The arch was doing quite a bit of flexing on the sections of the trail that were full of rocks and stumps. However, it held up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02019.JPG)
I winched the log with a northern tool
Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company 1500# winch and then chained the log in place. I was impressed with the winch as it has a brake. The winch held up fine and with the brake there is no freewheeling on the way down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02039.JPG)
The floor structure is started. I probably have a week or so in peeling, flattening, and fitting beams and joists before it will be ready for the cabin walls.
Jon
Good to hear the logs are moved.
I figured you were in for a lot of hard work, and real glad you didn't end up with breakage in the handling (or at least I hope not). That would be a big worry for me.
You're a trooper to tackle it alone.
How was the road going in? You earlier mentioned it might be too wet.
It's looking good.
I envy you! You know what your building and it;s moving along.
Mine started small until my wife got involved. It is now a 50X50 timberframe, rustic but elegant inside. a completely open space with on load bearing beams...etc
I named it the widder Naps place because it can't be built in my lifetime. :'(
Beenthere,
Getting the loader to the staging area when very smooth. No problems. The driver had been in many tighter areas. And, man, he was good with that grapple.
However, it rained for two days while I was moving logs with the arches and the path through the woods turned to muck. When I needed to move the short pieces, the four wheeler didn't have the power to pull a skid loaded up with pieces and the trail was too slick to get the Oliver out to help. I ended up lashing one piece to the front of the four wheeler and put one in the arch. 37 logs = 19 trips through the woods. Getting a heavy duty trailer made up that I can pull behind a four wheeler just moved right to the top of my priority list. I will probably talk to the welder this week, hopefully, I can make up a small trailer that will tow a four wheeler that can also be used hooked up to the four wheeler.
For the notches that were cut greater than 1/2 the diameter of the tree, when loading up I nailed on some 2 x 4 scab boards. When the logs got back to the site, I had all the pieces that we moved out of Red Wing (my main concern was misplacing a piece). One notch had a pretty good crack that I will fix when we put it on the building.
peter nap,
I too have a wife that thinks a cabin in the woods should be 2500 square feet with at least one whirlpool tub. Well, she is getting 20' X 22' one bedroom and an outhouse, which is about the limit of my ability.
Still moving logs?
Hope your trailer idea worked out for the shorter logs.
And hope this warm air is helping you out too.
:) :)
jander3
Are you snowed in?
The weather has changed a lot from last week. :)
A little bit of snow and sleet. Not too bad yet. I'm hoping for snow soon, my snowshoes are ready.
A couple of weeks ago I got everything moved from the Indian land where it was staged back to my property. Then, I spent a weekend and cleaned up the building lot I was leasing so I could take two weekends off. I'm also trying to work out a long term easement deal with tribe, which is very slow moving.
I just ordered an Alaskan chainsaw mill. Should be in this week. I have to flatten quite a few logs for the support beams and floor joists. I've been cutting these with a chainsaw freehand using chalk lines or a 2 x 4 as a guide. Freehand flattening (cutting and cleaning up the log) takes quite a bit of time. I'm hoping that Alaskan mill will speed up this process.
Today's project is cleaning out the garage and making room so I can work on a small timber frame over the winter in the evenings or weekends when it's too cold outside. I've been cutting a few practice joints and reading up on timber framing (which really strains both of my brain cells). By next spring I should be able to put together a small structure to cover our cooking area up at Hinckley
Based on Don's input, I did quite a bit of thinking and reading so I could decide on how I wanted to install the footings and foundation. The foundation will be used to support a log cabin. Because access is difficult and all work is done by hand, I really wanted to make the most of materials on hand and minimize anything that needed to be hauled in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01884.JPG)
Hauling in materials. I seriously considered dry-stacking stones. In the end I decided on footings with posts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01883.JPG)
Footings were dug by hand with a post-hole digger. They are 46" deep, about 18-20 inches diameter, with the largest bell at the bottom I could dig. I cut 6" pieces of 18" sono-tube for the top, this provided a nice level surface. I installed a bit of rebar in the holes. I decided to use 3 main support beams with 5 piers on the outer beams and 3 piers on the center beams.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01896.JPG)
Cut and peeled some Oak stumps to use as piers. Drilled two holes in the bottom for rebar.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01946.JPG)
Piers cut level.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01973%7E0.JPG)
Peeled and flattened Oak support.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC01971.JPG)
Laying out a tree for flattening.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02005.JPG)
Cutting a tree. After two weekends of cutting freehand and using a lumber-maker, I decided to purchase an Alaskan Chainsaw mill. This cut the time and effort required for ripping a log in half.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02008.JPG)
Cut a few Poplar for the floor joists; they are layed out on top of the Oaks for flattening.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02062.JPG)
Trees are flattened and peeled. Next trip out I will cut some notches and use lag screws to hold things in place and then start cutting and peeling the floor joists.
I just read your post, really enjoyed it. My wife an I are planning to build a 16 x 20 in the near future. It will be on our home place here, but about a 1/2 mile or so back in the woods by the creek. Beautiful place esp. when the wild azaleas are in bloom. My son and I have built an arch very similar to the one on you post for just such use--to transport logs from the mill to the build site. Really like your use of the sono tubes. I may change what i had in mind and do something similar. Thanks for the update. Tim
Dry stacking stones you probaly would be carrying in a jack to adjust the stones every few years.But you may not get the cold temps like I do that makes every thing move every spring and winter.Looks like quite the project. Keep the pictures and the progress coming.
thecfarm
The temps he has in northern MN are around (minus) -10° this morning... :) :)
But frost movement has a lot to do with soil type (clay is bad and glacial till is not so bad).
So many details but eventually the logs start going up and you will be glad for all the back breaking work on that foundation
looks good so far keep them photos comin were all pulling for ya! 8) 8) 8)
Foundation is finally finished and the logs are going on the walls. Last fall, I figured a couple of weekends and I would have her wrapped up. I was clueless. I didn't consider that everything was manual, the site is located in the middle of nowhere, I have nothing but hand tools, and red oak is about the hardest peeling, ripping, nailing, and drilling wood I've ever run into. Oh, yea, it is heavy as heck too.
The support structure is a combination of Red Oak and Poplar. In the end, the main driver for the type of wood was wood that was located close.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02287.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02285.JPG)
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02318.JPG)
Lookin great.
Was thinkin about you today, and wondering how the foundation was coming along.
Thanks for posting and have fun with the next stage.
The Stump Ranch is located on McGowan Lake, which is a small remote lake that is on 40 acres about 25 miles east of Hinckley, Minnesota. I do the majority of the work alone, so I, generally, have to figure out ways to accomplish the tasks with a single set of hands.
I spent Saturday and half the day Sunday loading logs onto the foundation; the photos below show current progress:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02340.JPG)
The lower level logs were lifted into place using a sky-line and chain fall. This was a very easy system for one man to operate; the set up took about 30 minutes. I just strung some 3/4" manila rope between two oak trees and mounted a chain fall on a pulley. Next trip out I will need to install a proper set of lifting shears to get the logs higher on the building.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02333.JPG)
Log is prepped to put in place. The black is a product called EM seal, which is a tar soaked foam tape that provides a weather tight seal at the notches and lateral groove. The white is wool rope laid in the groove to increase the insulation value of the wall. Both products are available at Schroeder Log Home Supply (http://www.loghelp.com/index.html (http://www.loghelp.com/index.html)).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02345.JPG)
A few rounds of logs installed on the building.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/DSC02351.JPG)
Saddle notches.
8) nice work 8)
What do you have set in the ground for posts/pilings?
Nice work. At 25 miles that must put you across the river.
On the footings:
Holes are 46" deep, 18-20" diameter, dug by hand, and filled with sack-crete. More info is located in the following post https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33283.20.html (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,33283.20.html).
On the location:
I'm located about 2 miles west of the St. Croix river.
I've merged your threads so your progress can be tracked more easily. :)
Thanks for the merge ......
hey jander3
looking good, it really is nice when you get to start putting the logs on. 8)
I'd just like to say that is so impressive, you're doing a great job and you've really given me some good ideas. Your base is brilliant.
I like the way you have used more than one row of thinner logs on top of each other on the same notch level, rather than looking for equal sized ones to alternate the notch - if you see what I mean.
SW.
I went out today and put a few more logs on the cabin. My wife Jackie came along to supervise and keep me out of trouble. It was nice to actually have company while working.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02483.JPG)
My favorite hat...a Tilley airflow
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02498.JPG)
Jackie easing a log into place after we installed EM seal and wool insulation.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02502.JPG)
These logs are Red Pine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02504.JPG)
Back of the cabin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02507.JPG)
Front of the cabin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02508.JPG)
View from the front porch.
Like how that is coming together.
Good help you have there (Jackie needs a LogRite tho ;D ;D)
One is amazed at the additional gripping (hooking) of a log with the design of the LogRite cant hooks.
Skeeters not too bad out there?
Beenthere,
Bugs aren't too bad right near our place. We have cleared quite a bit of the underbrush. Ticks season seems to be starting fade a little. However, the Black Flies are swarming big time. Man, I hate those Black Flies.
I have the same hat in tan and I love it. It will go from completely soaked to dry in a couple of hours. It is amazing how much cooler it keeps your head. :)
You're doing really well, keep it up.
How long does each log take to process from stump to fit? - edit: just re-read the thread - 1/2 day per log!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02538.JPG)
Fitting up a new header log for rough notching.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02534.JPG)
Here is the old one.
When I went to install the headers they were two inches too short. What logs don't shrink in length? The header logs bowed and warped when I had them stored on skids over the winter because I cut out the openings for the windows and doors in the header. Big mistake.
I am taking next weekend off to work on the cabin. Hope to get started on the roof.
I never would have thought about the logs warping enough to affect there length. Do you take the log down to cut or do you cut it up on the wall? looking good!
Stephen1
On length: I probably could have made the log work at the notch without much problem. I hated to go with a new log since I have a day or so invested in the old one. However, the lateral groove had areas with gaps of an inch or more, I just didn't think they would settle back in place.
On Cuttting:
Log up on the building - Fit up - Scribe rough notch
Log down - Cut rough notch
Log up on the building - Scribe notch and lateral groove
Log down - Cut notch and lateral groove
Log up on the building - Check final fit, install insullation, and roll into place
I know guys that cut on their buildings using small ladders or standing on the wall. I generally work alone, so that approach seems a little hazardous. I am hauling out some platform scaffold next week, this might allow me to cut the rough notch in place and eliminate moving the log off the building for that operation. Final cutting will have to be on the ground, I don't want to be walking backwards on 12" wide plank or log that is 15 feet off the ground with a chainsaw cutting the lateral goove.
I spent the weekend installing the last wall log. After running into nothing but problems the last few trips out, it was nice to actually accomplish something. I have both plate logs cut down, toted out of the woods, and ready for peeling, just need to find a ridge and we might actually have a roof before winter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02567.JPG)
The Cap log is set up and ready for flattening with the Micro Mill and 97cc saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02568.JPG)
After flattening is complete the volume centerline is marked and transfered to the ends. These marks are used with a plumb bob to set up the log for rough notching (to ensure the log stays centered over the foundation).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02573.JPG)
Notching completed, working on the lateral groove with an adze (I use my friend the 97 cc chain saw for the rough cuts).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02576.JPG)
Placing the Cap log, which is my last wall log, on the building.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02563.JPG)
A photo of the other Cap log. These logs are flattened as they are on the gable end and will support the ridge post. It is also a little easier to nail in framing material to a log that has a flat side.
Good to see the progress, and for the update. Looks like an enjoyable weekend.
Are some of the leaves starting to turn and fall? Our walnut leaves are beginning to yellow up and fall.
If you have weather like us you will be lucky to get the roof on. Looks like great progress being made. It really is nice when things go as planned :D
The plate logs are installed and the ridge is cut. I just need to cut some posts and a few mortises, then the roof should be ready to roll. I have the roof materials coming next weekend and a few friends have agreed to help me install the roof at the end of the month.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00198.JPG)
The plate logs are installed. I still need to install some temporary bracing under the ends of the plates until I have a chance to build the deck.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00162.JPG)
Peeling the ridge. No matter what I try I have one speed for peeling...slow. An exercise in patience as you just can't make it go quick.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00199.JPG)
Cutting the flat for the gable end post. I will put a mortise in this once I cut the post and tenon.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00136.JPG)
Sunrise at a pond just south of our property.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00139.JPG)
I just purchased this trailer to haul materials because the strap everything to the top of the log arch method was foiled by a downhill, a stump, and gravity. This trail is a superhighway compared to the previous 3 miles of goat path.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00178.JPG)
The first signs of fall.
That is going to be a really nice cabin. Some beautiful country you have there.
Don
Great update, its nice to see you making good progress on your cabin. Those last pictures show why the end result will be worth the effort.
Installing the Ridge Pole
My son was lined up to help me get the ridge installed on Friday. However, again, I managed to over estimate the number of things we could accomplish in one day and because the sun sets about 7 pm these days, the work day is a couple hours short. Anyway, we got everything test fitted before he had to leave.
So, I was on my own for getting the ridge installed on Saturday. I set up a lifting shear, got all the pieces in place and worked at a deliberate and careful pace. I set the ridge before lunch. After lunch I goofed off and walked property lines and got back to cabin work in the late afternoon. By dinner I had the center post rigged into place and everything braced.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00354.JPG)
Lifting shear made from a couple of Spruce poles and 1.5 ton chain hoist. The shear is secured to a tree with a rope puller so that the shear can be adjusted forward and backward (like a boom).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00360.JPG)
Each gable post was secured to the ridge with a truck strap. For good measure I put a deck screw through the joint between the post and ridge (it is not pegged).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00365.JPG)
Easing the ridge slowly into place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00374.JPG)
Ridge is vertical and blocked under the posts so I could remove the truck strap before dropping the ridge into the final position.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00399.JPG)
Rigging the center post into an upright position.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00409.JPG)
She is starting to look more like a cabin. I have about 2 days of rafter cutting and roofing, should have her buttoned up by winter.
Good work. It takes an ingenius mind to accomplish big tasks by yourself.
Don
Well done jander3. An amazing solo accomplishment. Be careful on top of that roof. Don't want you to bump your noggin like Arkansawyer ;)
Jon, I just finished reading your entire blog. This has been quite an adventure for you. It will be worth it one fall morning when you descend from the loft, get a cup of coffee and sit out on your deck and enjoy the start of a day knowing you don't have to peel a log that day. :)
Don
Outstanding accomplishment!
Don,
You read the whole blog? Now that's an accomplishment.
Jon
Yep! Every bit in chronological order. I enjoyed it. I really laughed at the bear pooping in the woods. :D
Don
I've read it too. And enjoyed the latest addition on the ridge setting.
Anxious for you to get the rafters set, and the roofing on this coming month. 8) 8)
Ah, the blog (www.peelinglogs.blogspot.com) reader count is up to 3 now. Don, Beenthere, and I think my Mom has read it (well parts of it anyway). Mostly, I record the info for my own amusement. I did look back based on Don's comment and it is actually pretty amazing what a guy can get done in a year or two if he puts his mind to it.
Beenthere,
Rafters should go up next Wednesday, I already hauled in the roof materials, so the roof will be on by the end of October. Ferns are dying off, colors are coming in nicely, and bullets are starting to fly.
reader count at 4. i been lurking in the shadows and enjoying it as well. My wife and i are going to do the same thing only on the grid. I built my shop first and have been cutting lumber and flooring for the house with my sawmill. My shop will be less than 100 ft from the house site so power isn't a problem and all the utilities are in. We live in a trailer on the other side of the property so distance isn't a problem either. You are our inspiration, if you can overcome all your issues and accomplish what you have, then we should have no excuses. I check daily on this board and your blogspot, Keep up the work and the updates. Ken
Installing Rafters
Man, the weather has really been stinky. Overcast, gray, rain, snow, cold, more rain, and more cold. I just need a couple of dry days to finish up the roofing. If things work out as I plan, I will nail up the plywood and install the metal at the end of the week.
We had a couple of inches of snow last week; that's crazy-business—the leaves are still on the trees.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00555.JPG)
The rafters are installed. I put up 50 fourteen footers (2"x8"), spaced 16" on center, with 24" overhang. The rafters were installed so that I will have a 4' overhang on each gable end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00544.JPG)
Using deck screws to install the rafters to the ridge pole while working from a couple of scaffold bucks. That scaffold was a total pain to haul back to the cabin site, but it was certainly worth the heartache.
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I nailed a couple of 2"x8"s to the top of the ridge after it was flattened. That way I had a consistent measurement. After figuring out the slope, I made up a template and cut all the rafters to length and then cut the bird's mouth before fit up to the ridge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00523.JPG)
Rafters are scribed to the plate log. For this system to work, you have to start with the lowest point on the wall and when each rafter is fit up, you measure the distance from the tail to the floor; then, scribe the difference. Before scribing, the bird's mouth has to to blocked up the required scribe distance. Then, the rafter is removed from the wall for cutting and chisel work.
Jander, you never cease to amaze me. Nice. I am confident you will get it dried in before its full of snow.
Yes, brilliant work, thanks for sharing, Jon. Mark that 5 full on "read your blog beginning to end." Fascinating, riveting, and totally real, man. If you don't mind I'll share your story with a link to your page and a couple of images with my family and friends.
Brian
Better get your counter fixed I read it cover to cover a few weeks ago for the second time.
Very nice work! Love the scribed rafters. But... I have to say I have never been impressed with the strength of deck screws. They have very little shear strength, and snap very easily. Keep up the good work. 8)
Nick
I am relatively new member. I have enjoyed this website over, and over. I have also been watching your progress. Someday (soon I hope) I will be stealing some of your ideas, to build my own place. Keep up the good work, I wish you the best. jimmy
Haven't heard from jander3 (jon), so am hoping his sheathing and roofing project are going well in the North of MN.
I'm thinking he is fighting a bit of snow, wind, and rain with temps around 30 - 40° F. But waiting on better weather this time of year might not happen.
I think I'll throw another log on the fire and just keep thinking of jon out there. Good luck jon. :)
Logs are Covered...about *DanG time
Thanks for the recent feedback on both this thread and the blog. I appreciate the interest. I just spent three days installing roofing. The weather still sucked.
I love rigging, chainsaw work, chisel work, axe work, camping, snowshoeing, and just about anything else you can do outside on your own. However, I neat-o' hate heights, always have, still do. So roofing is not my favorite activity. Snow, rain, mud, metal roofing, and an irrational fear of heights...made for an interesting couple of days.
I was under a direct order from my wife, no roofing without some else on the site. Normally, I am very independent and quite stubborn, but for this job, I agreed with her. So when my help was at the cabin site, we waited for the weather to clear and then worked slowly and carefully; we got the roof installed. An uneventful couple of days. Exactly how roofing should go.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00613.JPG)
A bit of muck and mud. Cut some firewood, cleaned up the site, and did a few odd jobs waiting for things to dry out enough to get up on the roof.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00575.JPG)
Installing 1/2" plywood sheathing. Also, this photo is proof that I had help. I have not yet figured out how to take a photo of myself on the roof.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00595.JPG)
Felt is installed; the roof is ready for the metal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00604.JPG)
Installing the ridge cap.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00628.JPG)
East end of the cabin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00623.JPG)
I trimmed up all the log ends, now everything is under roof, and my cabin logs can dry out. I was very glad to get this done because it has been so wet this fall. Water and exposed logs just don't mix. I figure I can frame in the gable ends and get the windows and the door installed before the weather gets too nasty. The cabin should be at lockup by the time the snow sticks.
Things I didn't have to do this job that I will have the next time to make the job safer.
1. Clamps for clamping to plywood and sheet metal so it can be hauled up by a rope. We used the hand up method.
2. Some type of harness and repelling device so that when we are moving around up on the roof, there is a back up safety system. Rope, ladders, and boots work ok; however, there is not much room for goofing up. And, this was only a 6/12 pitch, I don't know how guys do the steep roofs.
This morning, I cleaned up and organized the inside of the cabin shell. Then, I sat inside drinking coffee while listening to the rain hit the metal roofing; every log end was dry. I felt great.
Jander3, that's just Awesome........You did it. Now your on the home stretch.
Your cabin has come together very nicely.
Will you have some form of heat? Or is it not meant for cold weather? Hope you don't mind all my questions.
Great job! I decked mine but knees and ankles gave out so I hired out the metal work.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as irrational fear of heights. They suck IMO smiley_speechless smiley_thumbsdown
You have a beautiful peace of world there!
Great to see the progress. 8)
A great step to have done.
Now you can set up on the ground or on the floor inside.
Fishfarmer,
For heat, I am ordering a Five Dog Stove from the Four Dog Stove company located here in Minnesota.
http://fourdog.com/index_files/steelstoves.htm (http://fourdog.com/index_files/steelstoves.htm)
I am pretty much clueless in regards to stove pipe and chimney installation. So, I will need to figure that one out. I will probably come out the gable end with the stove pipe (two 90 degree bends).
Go through the roof near the peak. You'll wish you had later if you don't.
Norm
Quote from: jander3 on October 25, 2009, 08:13:47 PM
Fishfarmer,
For heat, I am ordering a Five Dog Stove from the Four Dog Stove company located here in Minnesota.
http://fourdog.com/index_files/steelstoves.htm (http://fourdog.com/index_files/steelstoves.htm)
I am pretty much clueless in regards to stove pipe and chimney installation. So, I will need to figure that one out. I will probably come out the gable end with the stove pipe (two 90 degree bends).
Go straight up through the roof with no bends. They sell a roof kit with supports that makes it easy to do. Bends create creosote buildup. Just my .02.
Quote from: Raider Bill on October 26, 2009, 07:59:40 AM
Bends create creosote buildup. Just my .02.
Been there, done that. Wish I could do away with my 90's. Can't do it without tearing down a cinderblock chimney.
Bruce
I agree with everyone else, straight up, it will be easier. The wood stove company will have the flashing kit for your roof and you do not have anything in the way yet.
Congratulations looking real good!! believe it or not now the hardest part of job is to happen, finishing everything.
Alright already, I'm convinced. Stove will go straight up through my roof. Thanks for settting me straight.
It would have happened eventually (goin through the roof :) ). And just put the stove pipe through the roof. ;D
I also tried the 90° elbows at first, but alas, will now only go straight up.
Any smoke juice will run straight back down, and not set up in an elbow. (Which causes a restriction, which then causes more juice, and more restriction. I think you know the rest of how that pans out. :) )
An elbow close to the stove isn't so critical, as the heat from a fire will keep the juice from building up.
It has definately been a miserable fall, went from too hot to constant cold and rain....glad to see you got her dried in.
Over the weekend I headed north to the Stump Ranch. Our property is surrounded by state and county land; with deer season kicked off, I wanted to make sure the deer hunters did not find our place. I was pleased when I arrived—no sign of anyone. This was not a total surprise as we are so far back in the woods it is not likely that someone would stumble on the cabin. It looks like the ranch should stay out sight; out of mind for another year.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00700.JPG)
Sunrise, I slid into camp well before sun up. I've been running the same path through the woods often enough that I can manage to find my way in the dark.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00704.JPG)
The view from the open air outhouse. View is great. Temperature...not so much. It was 30 degrees most of the day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00711.JPG)
Five Dog Stove set up. This is a temporary stove that you can tote around for camping, it is very portable. For the short term, I ran the stack out the window so I can have a little heat while working indoors this winter. I will put a chimney out the roof in the spring.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00721.JPG)
Working on closing in the gable ends.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00677-1.JPG)
After installing the roof, it took a full three weeks for my logs to dry out and recover from all the rain this fall. I like the light color much better than the black, rain-soaked logs I've been staring at (and fretting over) for months. When it warms up, I will clean up the logs and stain them.
Hi Jander,
I really like progress you made on the cabin it is looking great. As far as the stove goes I live in Montana and we use the Five Dog stoves and similar a lot when packing in the high country. I am sorry if I am telling what you already know but figured it may help otherwise. These stoves are great and heat very well however they are designed light so that they may be packed in on the back of a pack animal. They can burn out easily so we take a few shovel fulls of dirt and throw it in the bottom of the stove to prolong the life of them. They are also not made to stand up for extreme use for instance when we set up drop camp to hunt out of we pack in a heavy or normal household stove on a draft cross mule since this stove will be used more often. Hope this helps and I apologize otherwise.
hi Jander;
re :cold weather outhouse
cut a seat from a sheet of the blue or pink Styrofoam much more pleasant and not near as cold 8) 8)
8) james
keep the hemorhoids away- the old timers around here blame them on the cold outhouse seats they used to have to sit on :(
tmroper,
Stove is temporary. I like the sand in the bottom of the stove idea to preserve the life. I have not heard that before. I plan to give it a try.
Jander3, that a nifty little stove you have there. Did you get a portable type stove so you can take it home or is it "permanent"? Does it put out alot of heat? That may be hard to tell with the open gables. Its looking great.
Winter Trip
It has been quite some time since I've headed out to the Stump Ranch. Life just gets in the way and then my wife didn't want me hiking in alone a couple weeks back when it was -10 and -20 degrees. Today it was 25 degrees and sunny, a perfect day for a snowshoe trip though the woods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00973.JPG)
I am about 3 miles back in the woods. No sign of anyone anywhere near our place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00993.JPG)
The Bunk House is still holding up well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00980.JPG)
Packing in drills, clothes, and a bucket of mice poison to take care of the field mice. The pack was quite heavy by the time I got it loaded up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC00986.JPG)
The main reason for today's trip was that in the fall, I never got around to getting the Oliver ready for winter. However, after I installed the battery and then drained a little gas out of the carburetor—she fired right up. The power steering pump was not liking it all at first but it came around.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01001.JPG)
The Five Dog Stove is warming the building so I could do a little work inside.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01002.JPG)
The disadvantage of an "open air" outhouse.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01016.JPG)
After winterizing the tractor and all the chainsaws, I got most of the sub-floor installed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01034.JPG)
A beaver pond just south of our property.
I saw a segment on the stoves that Four Dog Stove Co. makes. They look like a quality stove that is perfect for your situation. The five dog model is real nice. Do you have a water tank on yours? I think portability is one of their strong selling points.
Looking real good on the homestead. Gotta see if you added to the blog. Take care out there by yourself.
Don
Duhhhh... disregard the water tank question. I scrolled back up and saw a pic of the stove. Been awhile since I saw this thread.
Don,
I've had the 5 dog stove fired up a number of times late fall and early winter. I really like the unit. And, it is totally portable. I can break it down and haul it where-ever. Everything fits inside. Once I finish up the inside of the cabin, I will install a more permanent stove and move this one to the bunkhouse.
I added a few photos and winter video tour to www.peelinglogs.blogspot.com
I am hoping for any early thaw, I would like to get back to work on the Stump Ranch soon.
Jander
I like that open air outhouse it beats a log. 8)
One time when a buddy and I were up in the back-country hunting elk we rode 15 miles (horseback one way) out of the way just because we knew there was a forest service outhouse there. ;D After using a log for 7 days that was a luxury no words could explain. Your cabin is looking great. I looks like a great place to get away and have some fun. Always enjoy your posts.
Yesterday, I managed to skip out on work and spend the day at The Stump Ranch. I really enjoyed the sun and the warm weather...it was 70 degrees. And, the Wood Ticks are not yet swarming. I spent the day pulling a few wind-blown logs out of the woods and then I cut a couple of posts. Next week, I will install the posts and start building the loft.
I also posted a short Stump Ranch video and some log arch photos on my blog. (http://www.peelinglogs.blogspot.com)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2795/DSC01197.JPG)
"Big Red" The older I get, the more I appreciate mechanical advantage and equipment such as log arches, winches, and snatch blocks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2795/DSC01209.JPG)
I cut a couple of posts for the loft. These posts will hold up the main support beam that, in turn, will support the floor joists. One log is Red Oak; the other is Poplar (Quaking Aspen). Both sized about right and located close so they will work just fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2795/DSC01217.JPG)
I decided to cut a slot in the post. That way I can lag the post in place on the log wall while accounting for settling. To cut this slot, I started with an auger bit and battery powered drill, no way was there enough torque. Next up, an auger bit with brace...again, no go. My third brainstorm was using the T-handled auger bit. After spending an hour or so on this project, I figured out maybe auger bit wasn't the right tool for the job. I fired up the chainsaw and punched the slot in about 2 minutes. What was I thinking?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2795/DSC01218.JPG)
A photo of the slot after rough cutting. The flat area provides a surface for the lag screw and washer to creep down the post as the wall settles. I still need to clean this up with a chisel.
Jon, good to hear from you again. Good equipment does make aging easier. ;D
Don
Jon, I second the welcome. Nice to see you again keep up the good work, here and on the blog. You're an inspiration. Thanks, jimmy
Don and Jimmy thanks for your thoughts. Don, the foundation is still solid as a rock. This weekend I took a good look under the cabin for any signs of sagging, cracking, or things that just didn't look right. Everything is in place and holding up well. I really appreciate your input on the front end of this thing.
This weekend, I installed the main support for the loft. Again, this was a one man operation so I had to think things through and make sure I stayed safe.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01377.JPG)
Self-portrait. Man, what a nice couple of days to be outside...Sunny, 65 degrees, not another soul around (except for the 16 million wood ticks that are staring to show themselves in the grassy areas).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01425.JPG)
The mortise and tenon fit perfectly. I measured and checked things about a dozen times before rigging the support because I was not able to test fit the joint.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01432.JPG)
The main support is installed and braced in place. I need to spend a day hauling in 2" x 6" material for the loft joists and then another day to install the decking.
Finally, the main logwork is done (for the interior) and I can start spending my time on decking, doors, windows, etc which goes much quicker than peeling and cutting trees.
I just read this whole thread and what an impressive job you have done. I've always had an extra set of hands around on our cabin build and I know how hard it is to do things on you own. Congrats on a great job.
Quinton
Jander, being able to stand on your head like that probably helps when building a cabin. ;) :D
Nice joint you cut. Someday I want to learn to do that.
I used to be able to stand on my head.
Keep up the good work.
looking good Jander, I always like to see what you are up to. I am in the process of moving my loft joists to my cabin, I will start this summer on building mine. Right now I'm cleaning out my barn and yard. I sold my house as the subdvisions are just around the corner.
Stephen1
Loft Installed
Over the weekend, I hauled materials back to the cabin site and installed the loft. Hauling materials is always interesting, wake up at 5 a.m. Drive to the Old Wilder Foundation, drop off the four wheeler, drive to Sandstone, load all the materials in the pickup, back to the Old Wilder Foundation, and tote the materials through the woods to the Stump Ranch. By the time I got all the materials on site, it was after noon.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01455.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01464.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01466.JPG)
Is that tongue and groove decking? What thickness?
Looking Dang Great!
and what wood? Looks like pine but...
Lj
Loft is decked with construction grade pine, nothing fancy. I am trying to figure out the best way to obtain the tounge and groove decking I need for the roof, eaves, and floors without breaking the bank.
Any ideas? Local mill? Menards? Custom floor provider?
Nice! I like pine myself, if I can get it down, cut and stickered before the blue stain gets it... Used some step material from Lowes (didn't want to buy but was in an awful hurry to finish up the house for my son's family) and then face-nailed it plus glue for a really beautiful look. It's soft, though- dropped something hard on a landing during install and got a nice ding that will always be part of its "history" now.
Inexpensive T&G- don't we all wish! I've looked into router table set-ups (ok for low production runs) and Woodmaster systems plus the high end moulder-shapers: bottom line is, for people like me, there is no good solution. Either spring for the expensive stuff so you don't spend all your time shaping, or spend all your time shaping on inexpensive equipment... Life is such a compromise! But as they are so fond of saying: "Love it or leave it!" and I'm not quite ready for the big exit. :o
Lj
Very nice! You remind me of that guy on pbs that built the log cabin in alaska! Dick Proennekky or something like that!
Red Pine and Red Oak She-Beast
I installed the loft ladder. I was thinking this little job would take me about 1/2 a day. A day and half later, I can now access my loft.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01489.JPG)
I had a few pieces of Red Oak that have been laying around the Stump Ranch (well, actually, I have a dozen or so truckloads left over from clearing the cabin site). I decided I wanted 2" ladder treads. So, I ripped a flat side with the Stihl chainsaw (65 cc) and mini-mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01495.JPG)
Then, I cut the treads just a hair over 2" with the Alaskan chainsaw mill and 97 cc Husky. I wanted a reasonable fit with the two inch slots that I cut in the runners.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01509.JPG)
Installed the treads. Everything is rough cut as clean up is not worth the time. Maybe, at some point, if I decide to purchase a generator I will clean things up with a disc sander. Or, maybe not, as I have enough projects to keep me busy for, like, ever.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01508.JPG)
The "She-Beast" installed.
Right now, the treads are just pressed in place. I need to figure out how to secure the ladder at the bottom. I have it bolted to the loft at the top. The runners cannot be bolted to the floor to allow for settling.
Any ideas? I'm thinking some type of brace that connects the runners at the bottom on the underside of the ladder coupled with screws on the underside of each tread holding the tread in place.
why not encase the bottom in a box, the ladder can't slide out form, side and front, a u shape box, that can be unscrewed and moved as your walls shrink.
How much have your walls dropped since building?
put the bottom on casters, they'll roll out as it settles....
I think I would fasten the bottom secure and put the slides at the top.
I'm not sure I'd want my ladder on wheels. ;)
Finding the Ranch
This video gives you a little perspective as to where we are located...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnBev1qh-lg
Seemed more like "Finding the Truck" ::) :)
Hauling in the TimberKing 1220
The sawmill came in last week. I took yesterday off and hauled the mill to the Stump Ranch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01697.JPG)
Barely enough truck to haul the mill.
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The saw-head ready for the trip through the woods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01774.JPG)
Bed sections and saw-head in place. This little job took just about the whole day. I am looking forward to finishing up the set up and cutting some lumber.
That's a very good reason to kick up your heels. Congratulations, and happy sawing. 8)
Jander, congrats on the new mill. Very nice. We want to see pics of you sawing the first log.
Did you take the mill in on the "good" road? Or use the same goat trail in the video? :D
Those happy folks pictured with the 1220 must have run an alaskan mill before. ;) :)
Fishfarmer,
There is no way I could haul the mill via the goat path from the south (in the video). I've skidded a few logs and hauled in things on 4' x 4' ATV trailer that way, but that is about all that will fit. I have an arrangement with the landowners to the north to use their logging road and the open field pictured above to haul in materials when I need to move in larger items (this beats the alternative which is skidding stuff across the lake in the winter and then winching things up to the top of a 50' bluff).
We have cut a path through the woods from their property to mine, that way I only have about 3/4 mile of goat path to navigate. As long as it is dry, my Oliver 880 can navigate this path. She just barely clears: in some spots, the tires rub the trees. It took me over an hour to move the saw-head (after loading) from from the field back to our place. And, making sure I didn't run the mill into a tree while going up and down hills and squeezing through the tight spots was quite the challenge.
Before ordering the mill, I talked quite a bit with Will Johnson at TimberKing. I wanted the biggest toughest mill I could get that I would be able to haul back to the Stump Ranch. This mill clearly fit the bill. My truck wouldn't haul any more, my loader was at the max height offloading the saw-head, the mill had about 2" of clearance in some spots when hauling it back, and I don't think I would want to go through the woods with any more weight in my loader. Clearly, I managed to get the the most mill I could deal with, if it was any larger there would be no way to get it back to where I need it.
Figuring out how to get the materials back to our cabin is always a challenge. Hauling, skidding, and rigging things back though the woods is very time consuming. That is why I try and make use of things that are on site.
The mill is level and in place; I am heading back to the cabin the weekend of July 9, 10, and 11. I'm sure I can finish up the setup and start cutting. I have quite a few Red Oak and Aspen logs (that I cut to make room for the mill) ready to saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01709.JPG)
In the photo above is my wife Jackie and my son Corey. They have a little captain in them. They are quite happy that to offload the mill we only had to get to plan B. I did have plan C & D in my back pocket, but either of those ideas would have required way more time.
Thanks for the explanation. Keep up the good work my friend. 8)
That is a neat picture showing the true spirit of a family with a will and a purpose. :)
Jon -
What did you decide to do about T&G? I read in an earlier message you were looking for suggestions. I was in the same dilemma myself a couple weeks back. I only needed 1x stuff and looked high and low for a local source at a reasonable price but came up empty. In the end I found #2-1x6 white pine at Menards for $.49 per foot. I was even able to get it all in 16' lengths which was a huge bonus for me and my roof with 32" spacings. Not happy about writing that check, but in the end it seemed the best value. Homestead Timbers could get me down to $.38 per foot, but it was random length bundles and I would have to pay for shipping. Even ordering 6000 feet, shipping was going to add another .05-.08 per foot to the cost.
The joys of finding the balance on a project like this.....Time, Money, Quality.
Doug,
Wanted a sawmill, I have 40 acres full of Red Oak and Aspen and hauling things in is totally a pain. I purchased the mill so I can cut timbers and planking for outbuilidngs. I am cutting the decking and planking I need for the roof and flooring which will be ship-lapped and face nailed. I will run the flooring through a planner at some point; external and internal roofing will be rough cut right off the mill.
Basically the combination of needing planking, wanting a mill, needing to put up some outbuildings and plenty of timber (that you can't log because of access) that I need to use. I decided sawmill was the best answer.
Don't blame you one bit. Actually I am a little jealous as a mill has been on my list for a couple of years. If I had more time to spend on this project I would be money ahead by sawing some of my timbers too. I've got 5-10 acres of white pine that needs thinned in the worst way. If I got a mill I'm not sure anything else would get done around here for months :D Maybe that could be my reward for getting the cabin done!
I've been cleaning things up at the Stump Ranch and spending some time figuring out how to run the Timberking 1220. The mill cuts well and I've pretty much cut up all the trees I cut down to make room for the mill. I spent a day or two cutting firewood and cleaning up the inside of the cabin. That way, I can set up my sleeping bag in the cabin and move out of the bunkhouse which is packed full with equipment.
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01771.JPG)
Jackie is cutting some 2" x 4" material.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01778.JPG)
Milling equipment.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01781.JPG)
Tool table set up near the mill. Sized at the perfect height for chainsaw sharpening.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2902/DSC01782.JPG)
My brother is planning to make a trip out to help me next week. His expertise is in supervising, harassing me, and drinking coffee. So, I cut this supervisory chair from an Aspen stump so that he has a place to keep his eyes on the milling operations.
Jon, looks like you made that stump just rough enough to keep your brother wiggling. :D ;)
That mill sure makes cutting boards easy. I bet you are saying you wish you had it sooner. ;D
Looks like a nice little slab pile going to feed the fourdog stove.
Don
Lock Up...Almost
The Stump Ranch should be at lock-up soon. I figure by winter we will have everything closed in and insulated. It's been a long haul, but I finally moved out of the bunkhouse and into the cabin. It is much nicer sleeping in a bed rather than sharing a bunk with oil, axes, and chainsaws.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01988.JPG)
Eaves finished and vented, facing installed, and windows on the South side of the cabin ready for finish work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01984.JPG)
Purchased the windows at Building Material Outlet which is a builders consignment store. Pricing was great...new Pella and Anderson double casement windows for about $100 each.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01946.JPG)
Our bed in the loft. So much better than the bunkhouse.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC01969.JPG)
Installing the facing boards and drip edge on the north side of the ranch. This facing is 3/4" x about 10" and was cut from a Red Oak chunk that blew out of the trees in the storms a few weeks back.
Looks great, Jander- nice job and must have been lots of hard work, but worth it. On the other hand: you sleep with a chainsaw? Ouch!
Do you all have powder post beetles up there? They'd eat that red oak in a season down here- millions of tiny holes and lots of beetle frash underneath. They ate most of my firewood pile one year- made the mistake of cutting mostly hickory cause it was down anyway- so much beetle residue that it made you gag just picking up the wood to burn...
Oh, and carpenter bees? They'll burrow into just about anything, though they like pine best, it seems. Hate all these invasive bugs and weeds!
Lj
ljmathias,
Yes chainsaw, axe, adze, oil, gas, grease, paint, and caulk are all great sleeping partners. A 10' x 10' bunkhouse has served me well for sleeping and storing all my equipment, but it is nice to be out. And, now my wife will even stay overnight.
Red Oak is not the best choice for facing boards. But it was sized right and easily available. I use Penetreat on everything and that helps with ants and/or bees. Don't have too much in the way of beetles. Or, I don't think. I will tell you, for sure, next year.
Good to know I'm not the only one who lives up-close-and-personal with their chainsaw ;D Our shave an honorary shelf next to the woodstove, which is about the only way they'll start in the winter... such spoiled little machines they are, geez, it was only 40 below zero ::)
Anyway, Stump Ranch is looking great, and I bet your wife will have all sorts of fun prettying it up for you now :)
Quote from: PlicketyCat on September 07, 2010, 02:08:12 AM
and I bet your wife will have all sorts of fun prettying it up for you now :)
yikes_smiley
Now, Jeff, that ain't the way it is, really- having the wife do all the "prettying up" is the only reason we build the stuff we build, no? At least, that's what my wife keeps telling me... ???
Lj
The cabin I'm sitting in right now was built as a hunting camp. In the early days we could shoot at mice with the twenty two as they ran along the wall while playing cards with our deer rifles all leaned up against the bench where the log sofa and all its associated pillows now sits.
I'm sitting here now, with my feet up, laptop on my laptop, watching a big T.V. and thinking should I put a blankie on or turn on the furnace.
Yea, I guess yer right. :D
You know we can't help it -- it's our nesting instinct :) You guys should be happy when a woman wants to pretty up your place, means she loves ya and wants to share your nest. Fluffy pillows and curtains are like kisses :-*
Gawd... :D This from an Alaskan Bush Woman? ;)
Hehe - just because I can design and build my own nest doesn't mean I don't appreciate my hubby's contribution, or quell my desire to make the nest nice... maybe me building it is just nesting syndrome in hyperdrive :)
Ok, I so not a fan of big fluffy pillows, but I do still get a little cranky when the sheets and towles don't match smiley_thumbsup
Weekend Projects
There is always too much to do. I am quite sure I will finish the Stump Ranch, like, never. Anyway, this weekend I got to do a little milling, a little nailing, and a little outhouse roofing. I had a great time. The weather is starting to cool off. I would guess another week or two and the trees will be full on into their color change. Right now, the wood ticks are gone, the Ferns are dying off, and there is just a hint of color change on a few of the Red Maple's.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02041.JPG)
Some really Butt-Ugly Aspen logs that I pulled out of woods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02048.JPG)
Yet, after they were milled up, they look just fine. I used these logs for gable end siding and planking.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02049.JPG)
Because it is getting cold, we have been filling in the gaps. That way, when we fire up the four-dog stove, the heat stays inside the cabin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02064.JPG)
"The End of an Era" Winter is getting close, so we are closing in the Open Air Outhouse. My wife likes this idea and I like my wife's company...so, this winter we won't be shoveling the snow off the outhouse seat.
Quote from: jander3 on September 19, 2010, 10:17:38 PM
"The End of an Era" Winter is getting close, so we are closing in the Open Air Outhouse. My wife likes this idea and I like my wife's company...so this winter we won't be shoveling the snow off the outhouse seat.
But the real question is whether you're going to custom carve a new winter seat out of foamboard so the wife's pink parts don't freeze to the standard one. Nothing like a nice cozy-warm throne to keep peace in the marriage :D
Poking Holes in Trees.
I am still learning to fell trees, so if I am messing up, let me know. I want to do this as safely as I can.
In this video, I think the notch was a little under-sized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-8sh0Rne2k
I dropped about 10 trees on Thursday. Every one landed exactly where I intended. However I still hung up two tree as I under-estimated the height.
That looks good including creating the video. 8)
On the notch, you should make the upper cut first and shoot for ending about a third of the tree diameter horizonally into the tree. Then make your second cut horizonally and look down the vertical cut untill you see your chain all the way across the vertical cut and no more.
I always set one or two plastic wedges after I finish the bore cut cause it's easier to do then rather than after it sits back, if it does not fall.
Are you just thinning those aspens or making clearings? Have you got any oak sprouting under that aspen?
Also did you ever get Foss out for a walk through?
Quote from: Gary_C on October 10, 2010, 04:30:21 AM
Then make your second cut horizontally and look down the vertical cut until you see your chain all the way across the vertical cut and no more.
When you make an open faced notch the bottom cut is made second as mentioned but it is not made horizontally, it is made up as he did. However I agree with him that the notch was a little small.
Deciding on how deep to make the felling notch depends on the conditions of the tree. Such as, do you expect there to be center rot. If the tree has some center rot and the hinge is where the rot is, then you don't have that much wood to act as a hinge.
We usually only go into the tree with the felling notch the height of the bar from the top chain to the bottom chain.
If you cut the felling notch too deep into the trunk then when you are making your standard back cut, not a plunge cut, and you need to use your wedges you have the risk of pounding your wedges into your chain on your saw. To get more room for a wedge we make a small felling notch.
Personally I would only use a plunge cut on a tree that was already leaning the way I want it to go. If the tree was standing fairly plump then I'd make a standard back cut.
But it really depends on why your harvesting the tree. If you're cutting it for firewood then you don't really care if the butt of the bottom log splits as you cut it down, except that it might barber chair. If your harvesting for sawlogs then you don't want the butt of the bottom log to split.
These are just my opinions about this.
The only thing that I didn't see you do is called "corner nipping" This prevents "root tear" which can re-direct the tree once it starts falling.
In this story, https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,37197.0.html I drew a diagram of how to do "corner nipping" and as mentioned there, sometimes called "wing cuts".....
Jim Rogers
As for the depth of your notch you do not want 1/3 of the diameter. You only want to go deep enough to get a hinge width of 80 % of the DBH. The deeper the notch the harder it is to tip over a tree with back lean.
sure looks like you waiting a bit long for that mill :D
wish I had half that ambition as I have a hard enough time getting out of the living room in time to get to McDees for breakfast lol
My old brother has that kind of energy & determination as well. works 12~16 hrs a day 7 days a week at just about anything & every thing.
All & All it is great to see the craftsmanship and know-how used like that.
'Mark
Thanks for the video.
I'd only comment that using the sight on the saw to line up the fall-direction and staying behind the saw to make the angle-down cut and the angle-up cut was taught in the GOL that I attended. For me it is quicker as less need to walk around and play with the opening face cut.
I like the plunge cut to establish the hinge for better control. Especially when someone is walking around taking video. :)
Using wedges keeps you in control as suggested.
All in all, good job.
And...for me, cut out the music. It was real distracting while wanting to listen to the sound of the saw. :)
I appreciate the comments. I did use an open faced notch and plunge cut...in general, this seems to give me decent control. I've also pretty much decided that it is easy just to use wedges on most everything.
Gary,
I have a number of stands of Aspen that I am clearing, mostly to get a little more sun to the south side of the cabin. And, I will use the wood to cut beams for a few timber frame projects and I need logs to build the sauna. I am cutting till I can get adequate sun to the ground; then, the Aspen will sprout from the stumps and come back in pretty good. I do have a lot of Red Oak, I am not thinning any of the Oak, yet. I am waiting for the DNR to come out and help me with a walk around. I did request Bill Foss (hopefully, he will help me out before he retires). I want to make sure that I leave the best trees and properly open up the areas around them. I have a pretty good idea as to what should be cut, but I prefer to wait till I can get the DNR feedback.
Jim,
Thanks for the info on corner nipping, I was not aware of this.
Beenthere,
I think, maybe, your nuts...chainsaw sound vs David Logan? Well, maybe not. Given the choice between sitting in my living room listening to music, or hanging out in the woods listening to a chainsaw rip, I tend to pick the chainsaw every time.
Quote from: bill m on October 10, 2010, 09:08:16 AM
As for the depth of your notch you do not want 1/3 of the diameter. You only want to go deep enough to get a hinge width of 80 % of the DBH. The deeper the notch the harder it is to tip over a tree with back lean.
Bill, 1/3 the diameter will give you 81.65 % of the diameter in the width of hinge.
And moving the face of the notch deeper into the tree moves the tipping point further back into the tree and essentially moves the center of gravity further back and actually makes the tree tip easier. However at some point you also can have it tip backwards to the direction you want it to go on a back leaner and it is harder to wedge over. That's another reason for 1/3 the diameter as a good compromise.
As far as the second cut being horizontal, that's the way I was taught. They said you do not want to make a notch close to 90 degrees as you want the notch to close before the tree hits the ground so as to break the notch. And the other reason for me is I only cut large trees by the chainsaw method and then to keep stump heights low, I am usually cutting into the butt flare and it is very difficult to make what is essentially a humbolt cut upwards when you are into the flare.
Quote from: Gary_C on October 10, 2010, 11:58:20 AM
As far as the second cut being horizontal, that's the way I was taught. They said you do not want to make a notch close to 90 degrees as you want the notch to close before the tree hits the ground so as to break the notch. And the other reason for me is I only cut large trees by the chainsaw method and then to keep stump heights low, I am usually cutting into the butt flare and it is very difficult to make what is essentially a humbolt cut upwards when you are into the flare.
Gary:
The whole purpose of an open faced notch is to keep the log/tree trunk attached to the stump as it falls down. You have better control of the location that the tree will fall and it holds the log/trunk of the tree to the stump. If it breaks free, then it can kick back.
37% of the guys killed in the woods is from the butt kicking back and hitting them as they stand there (incorrect to just stand there) watching the tree fall down.
This open faced notch is a newer method then what we learned way back when....
And it's suppose to be safer for the logger.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: Jim_Rogers on October 10, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
The whole purpose of an open faced notch is to keep the log/tree trunk attached to the stump as it falls down.
This open faced notch is a newer method then what we learned way back when....
Jim Rogers
Ya, that was a long time ago. :D :D
But I do remember the discussion about the notch closing and the timing. And the answer was that by the time the notch with the horizontal cut closes, that hinge has lost all control as the tree is almost on the ground and nothing could change the direction of fall at that point. And most likely the hinge has broken by bending anyway at that point.
Anyway, it's a minor point to consider. The main reason for me is the DNR is always demanding very low stumps and for me it is easier than recutting stumps.
Quote from: Gary_C on October 10, 2010, 11:58:20 AM
Bill, 1/3 the diameter will give you 81.65 % of the diameter in the width of hinge.
That only works if the tree is a perfect circle and in 30 years of cutting trees I haven't found one yet.
And moving the face of the notch deeper into the tree moves the tipping point further back into the tree and essentially moves the center of gravity further back and actually makes the tree tip easier. However at some point you also can have it tip backwards to the direction you want it to go on a back leaner and it is harder to wedge over. That's another reason for 1/3 the diameter as a good compromise.
Depth of notch is not important, width of hinge is. You only need to deep enough to get a hinge width of 80% of the DBH. And the deeper the notch is the harder it is to wedge over a back leaning tree.
[/quote]
I like to wedge as soon as possible, having leaners sit back always freaks me out.
Then once I get the back cut, just wedge'm over.
If there is any doubt, I usually rope them and use a little block and tackle to put some pressure in the right direction. Big trees still make the heart beat fast.
Bill, you just have to find better trees to cut. Most all the ones I cut are round. ;D ;D
Jander - I read with interest your post on your Gin , good stuff
There is another (some say superior) option, other than a chain fall or a winch for such applications. Grip type cable pullers. For years the only manufacture available was Tirfor Griphoist, these are still the best and the only ones approved for man-riding applications, such as lowering a Bosun's Chair to do a bridge inspection. But there are now much lower cost versions such as this offering - http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product2_200419695_200419695
As example here we are raising this truss with an Un-stayed Gin powered by a grip.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23260/3025/Sugar2.JPG)
Here we are using a grip to "luff the spar on the Derrick to raise this scribed octagonal barn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23260/3025/kmb.JPG)
Here a grip is used to raise and lower this replacement Tie as well as luff these Shear Legs to insert the Tie in under the bridges roof system.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23260/3025/Bennet2.JPG)
This same Bridge was rolled off and back onto its abutments with a single (very large) Grip.
If you were to use a grip with your setup you would have to change out that change of direction sheave for one of larger diameter. The special wire-rope they use is somewhat stiff, and would kink if you wrapped a bight on a pully that small.
Bridgewright,
I agree with your thoughts. I purchased some rope pullers (similar concept) last year and I pretty much use these for most of my rigging. Easy to set up, work well, and easy to handle. Similar concept to the rope pullers descibe. In one of your photos is that a derrick crane set up in the background. If so, have any photos of the hardware (boom connection, swivel device for the main pole, and rigging attachment for the guylines?). I have another little project planned, and I'm thinking about setting a derrick inside the building before I strart. Looking for hardware ideas.
Are you talking Rope-a-longs? Have some, grips are nothing like those, nothing like anything else available. The removable handle attaches to either of two levers, one for pulling cable in, one for paying it out. This is a smooth action, a mechanism grips the cable and pulls or releases. No pawls or clicking gears. And there is constant smooth movement in either direction the handle is moved.
Here is a video, I think it will give a better sense of their operation and capability than the stills I put up before. And bear in mind, the two I-Beams we are moving here are 90' long and each weigh 80 lbs a running foot, with the bolts and fish plates, we are all told moving a full 7.5 Tons - http://www.twitvid.com/AYZ1Z
That is a custom Derrick of my design, the mast is a 40' length of 6' thickwall schedule 80 pipe. I did use some 19th ca castings, which had served as a typ derrick in a local granite quarry for many years. In the instance pictured it sat in the middle of the octagon and could reach anywhere in the frame. The Spar is hinged at that height to be above the Rafters and Purlins. We assembled the Cubidle (8' across) on the ground, swung the derrick out of the frame, and the Cubidle into place in about an hours worth of crane time.
That shot was taken by a students wife, that was Aug '01 (Just before the world changed) My digital pics were lost when the dinosaur software that camera had was incompatible with Win XP and the camera company refused to write a patch.
I may have something somewhere, or the drawings I produced for my fabricator. I'll have a look.
-- Will
A good descriptive page on Griphoists - http://sn.im/1bqmxr
Looking for the Derrick hardware info.
This grainy photo is the only other image I have of the Derrick or the Farm Museum Barn before it was completed -
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23260/3025/KMB_215.jpg)
I've also lost dwg's drawn for the fabricator. (that was several computers ago) I do have hand renderings of the derrick castings and conceptuals of the derrick I drew as I planned the project, which were in the filing cabinet.
These would likely fit your need. I could scan them in, but I'm not sure it makes sense to post them here. I could possibly send them direct.
A few windows and some outhouse siding.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02096.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02106.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02134.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02164.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02187.JPG)
Windows are done. Next weekend, we install the permanent door and finish sealing, caulking and insulating. Once all the holes to the outside are sealed up, I expect my battle with the mice to ease up a little.
Why not pull a hayrack with several pieces on it, rather than one at a time with that arch? Too hilly?
Lock-Up...Finally
We installed a front door and The Stump Ranch is now at lock-up. We also insulated both gable ends and half the roof area. A little insulation sure helps keep the heat in. I spent a couple of nights with temperatures right about 15 degrees; I was quite comfortable.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02327.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02330.JPG)
The cabin looks super. The sawdust around the steps lets everyone know your a sawyer. 8) 8)
Good thing you used screws on your door lock hasp, that way when someone pushes it in, they won't mess up your door too bad. ;) I hope it never happens.
The cabin is looking great Jander. I've really enjoyed following your progress.
Fishfarmer,
I am always worried about someone finding our place. However, I am so far back in the woods, it takes real effort to get there. Folks that hunt the adjacent public land just don't seem to have the desire to hike 3 miles back into the woods. And, I have done everything I can to make sure that the trail to our place is quite hidden. So far, so good. No sign of hunters over the last three seasons. I am figuring that if you can't get there with a vehicle, this will reduce the chance of a break in.
Yes, sawdust everywhere. This was after I cleaned up. Just ripping a couple of 2" x 4" key-ways for the door frame sure made a mess.
Hate to say it John, but everyone I've known with a cabin has been broken into. Four wheelers, younger people mostly. Though a padlock will never keep someone out that wants to get in, I try to make it as difficult as possible to keep the honest people honest. I doubt those screws will hold much to a kick to the door. I always use carriage bolts so there's a round head on the outside(stainless steel preferred. For looks you can finish the inside with stainless acorn nuts. Reinforcing the mounting point with a metal lock cover or at least a steel plate on the inside will make it stronger. Both sides even better.
Make it too hard and they will just break the glass...Tim
You could try one of these...
http://www.google.com/images?q=Intruders+will+be+shot,+survivors+will+be+shot+again&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNB_enUS359US359&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=manrTKq9CoOglAfwrYRo&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CC4QsAQwAA
Congratulations on the progress that you have made this year. Now you can spend the Winter planning next year's work.
I know that you are proud, and you should very well be.
Jander, the place is looking real good, leave a screw driver under the mat, that way they can lock up after they leave.
Outstanding story from start to finish. Even the tree falling opinions.
A fine job you and your family can be proud of for years to come! 8)
A Day For the Snowshoes
Sunday was 5 degrees and sunny. Just me and my snowshoes. Crossing the lake I stopped and talked with a couple of guys ice fishing; the Sac-a-lait (crappie) were hitting hard. Other than that it was just me, my snowshoes, my thoughts, and the woods for the day.
I did take a few minutes and installed some more insulation (roofing) and fired up the sawmill just to run it some.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02395.JPG)
The new and improved outhouse.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02398.JPG)
Four-dog stove heating things up nicely. It is amazing how warm things get now that the cabin is closed in and I don't have to heat the forest.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02403.JPG)
The outdoor kitchen...closed for the season.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02405.JPG)
The bunkhouse is getting converted to a tool shed as I don't have to sleep here no more.
Jander, the place looks great frosted in snow. Although the outhouse doesn't look too inviting, brrrr.
8) That looks like a great day.
I'd trade ya a week of 75 degrees for one of those days. :)
I'm sure it feels good to be to this point.
I must say the outhouse doesn't look very mosquito proof! I'm sure a door and some screen are on the agenda, eh?
Have you sealed the cabin so that you don't have mice coming in? That is the main thing I hate -mice! And their little presents they leave.
Congrats! The place looks great. It's sad that we have to worry about strangers doing harm to our property.
What a great day that must have been. Perfect! winter day.
Stephen
just read the entire thread. thanks for the great read, i love the adventure you brought us.
Spring Preps
I spent a couple of days at the Stump Ranch and really enjoyed myself. No worries, temperatures in the 30s, and plenty of sun. No one but me in the woods! I took the opportunity to get things ready for spring as I have a half dozen projects lined up that I need to get started.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02810.JPG)
To get the Stump Ranch, I still have to fight the snow. We still have 12-24" and it is getting wet and sloppy. Snow chains for my Polaris are priceless!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02793.JPG)
After messing around with insulation a little bit on each trip this winter, I sucked it up, and got the insulation installed and then installed a vapor barrier. I, do so, hate fiberglass. And, I am glad that job is finally finished.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02825.JPG)
Fired up the chainsaws so they will be ready for spring.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2073/DSC02844.JPG)
I had very specific direction from my wife, "Get all the dog-gone tools out of the cabin and store them in the shed." I spent 1/2 a day organizing the shed and making sure the cabin will be ready for her first visit in the spring.
Hi Jander, I see you have a leaning ladder to your loft.
I am thinking it will work well for me,
What angle is set at?
Do you have any type of pull up or railings for it?
Stephen,
The ladder works well, didn't want the straight up and down ladder and didn't want to lose the space to a staircase. Not sure of the angle, but the bottom of the ladder is maybe a 18" to 24" out from the top. The steps are 2" thick and were cut from red oak that was about 12-14" in diameter.
I have no rails on it yet. At some point, I plant to attach some poles maybe 6" off the runners.
Below is the link to the post, from my blog, where I installed the ladder.
http://peelinglogs.blogspot.com/2010/05/red-pine-red-oak-she-beast.html
Jon
How has the summer been at the Stump Ranch? Any wind damage from earlier this month?
I'll check your blog too.
Aha! I see the high winds did knock down some trees. Glad they didn't land on your cabin or the Oliver. Hopefully the cooler weather will come soon.
Beenthere,
Ya...interesting summer. Hot, humid, and when the dog-gone ticks finally faded away, the horseflies got vicious—I hate those things. I am looking forward to things cooling off some.
Over July 4th we got some nasty storms with big-time straight-line winds. There are a couple of pine plantations on the way to the ranch with every tree broken off about 15 feet up. Guys were logging trying to salvage what they could. Winds broke and pushed over tress all over the place.
A week before this, I just cut 15 to 20 trees so that I could mill them for projects. Now, I have probably 50-60 trees for cutting, hauling, and milling. The downed trees are mostly Aspen with a few smaller Red Oak.
The Stump Ranch was fine, my equipment was fine; however, every path into my place was blocked. Initially, I couldn't get an ATV in, so I was walking and cutting. It took 2-3 days, but I managed to clear a path for my ATV. Now I just need to cut, haul, and mill.
This spring my trips to the cabin have been to cut and haul beams for the timber framed shed I am working on at home. This project is nearing completion and I should raise the shed in a month or so (only 4 or 5 months beyond my initial schedule).
I also continue to cut beams and planking for a few projects. I am ready to start the sauna, the flooring is drying, and as an after-thought I will probably put a porch on the Stump Ranch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/trail1.jpg)
Logging road into my place.
Wow, I feel for you- that picture looks pretty much like most of Mississippi post-Katrina. I remember cutting and hauling for weeks during the aftermath- nothing else to do anyway with no electricity and all the offices and the university shut down for two weeks. Kinda like a working vacation or mission trip except in our own backyard. :D
Hope your clean up isn't as long and drawn out. Have a great summer anyway.
Lj
The place looks great. Excellent work!
As far as break-ins, we have had some experience with that. We've always found that locals are the worst, and it's usually someone that folks nearby know (our place isn't nearly as tough to access, though). I put up 3 trail cameras and started asking around to find the responsible parties (typically kids). We ended up getting most of our stuff back, and once word gets around, people just stopped exploring the place uninvited. You do have to move the cameras periodically though (i had one camera stolen).
Bushnell makes some great little digital trail cameras. The batteries last almost a year without replacement (uses 8 AA batteries) even when they are taking lots of pictures. I've found them pretty cheap on Ebay and they are pre-fitted for a python cable lock.
Finally had the chance to work a little on the stump ranch, got the gable end siding installed, closed in the gable roof, and installed a chimney.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/49-1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/53-1.jpg)
Looks great- isn't it nice to see a project this big coming to a close, knowing all that hard work and hard thinking are finally getting done? :)
Lj
It has been some time since i posted an update. In general, I would like things to be moving faster. However, they are not. Big picture, we are closing in on finishing up on the Stump Ranch. My brother had decided to build a timber frame on our property and I am turning my attention to creature comforts (cabinets, sauna, and deck), so for sure I will never be fully wrapped up on this project.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/David_and_Jack.JPG)
Adding some trim to the cabin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0318.jpg)
Built a little picnic table for out front. Added some footings for the front deck.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0336.jpg)
Beard is getting quite white. Funny, I still feel like I am 17.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0346.jpg)
Hammering up some Aspen on the inside ceiling.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0358.jpg)
Burning and burning. Trying to make some headway.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0385.jpg)
Tired of fighting slabs. Made up a little jig that will help cut the wood into firewood length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0348.jpg)
Hanging a few pots.
Looks good Jon. Nice to see someone else is up there in the woods keeping the ticks busy. :D
I have been working over by Graces Lake on blowdown, but I just moved over by Markville for a small private land blowdown job. It's just amazing how much land in that state forest was devastated by that July storm.
Stop by and say hello some time when you are up there. For about the next month I will be just a mile east of Markville on the south side of the road.
Like your Oliver. Many of those were made in Shelbyville, Illinois near where I grew up.
Been organizing, breaking stuff, tractor fixing, milling flooring, and in general getting the Stump Ranch ready for winter. I have been enjoying my time at the cabin. And, I made dog-gone sure that the Oliver does, indeed, have enough antifreeze.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0506.jpg)
Now a two piece log arch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0518.jpg)
Cutting Red Oak that will be used for flooring.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0510.jpg)
TimberKing mill is still running great.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0521.jpg)
Quite a few tractor repairs; the Oliver is now running great and ready for winter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMAG0491.jpg)
Organizing the bunkhouse and rigging.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/2012-09-23_13_38_02.jpg)
New bed frame. I like the bed on the main floor. The loft bed, well, now that is for guests.
Just wondering how you are going to install the oak flooring. Will you leave the edges square, tongue and groove, shiplap? I plan to install an oak floor in my 12x16 but am not sure about the edge treatment of the boards. Thanks.
Frankz,
On the flooring...it depends. I am way out in the woods, no power, no services. I've been looking at a generator. If I can swing purchase of a generator this winter along with a router and table, I will ship lap. However, it is more likely that after drying the flooring, I will square up the edges on the sawmill and then nail the planking in. Folks have done that for hundreds of years, seems to work fine. I am also thinking about getting some traditional square nails to secure the flooring as I like that look.
The one thing this project has done for me is it has cured me of over-thinking things and getting too fancy. I now tend to look at how things were done some time ago, and if that seems to work, then I go with it.
Jon
Good plan.
What happened to the log arch? Seems you indicated it was on your list to fix.
Beenthere,
Log arch? Well, a couple years back I figured I could have a dual purpose log arch; I built a bolt-on platform for the top for hauling stuff. This design totally ignored forces like gravity. I loaded up the arch and she was top heavy big time. A few hills, a few roots, and well it toppled a few times bending the crap out of the tongue. I just bent it back and moved on.
Last weekend I grabbed a 12 foot 14" diameter chunk of Red Oak and 1/2 way to the mill, the tongue piece broke into two. Looking at the break it, is clear that it has been cracked for some time (i.e. the dual purpose adventure mentioned above). I loaded up the arch and brought her back to town. I will get it welded up and she will be fine. I will probably re-enforce the tongue piece somewhat to make it stronger.
I did end up getting a trailer for hauling stuff which is a more efficient and a heck of a lot safer.
Seems like life gets complicated. However, this past week I was able to spend about 5 days at the Stump Ranch. I, mostly, finished up the ceiling, I trimmed out the windows, and, most importantly, I had some time to myself. And, for a couple of days, my wife Jackie came by the ranch to hang out. Nice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMG_0847_28229.jpg)
Moving things around, so that on the next trip out, I can cut and install the Red Oak flooring that I've had stickered and stacked for a couple of years.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMG_0852_28229.jpg)
Cleaning up and burning all the stray wood that has built up over the last couple of years.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMG_0854_28229.jpg)
Trimmed out the windows and doors.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17998/IMG_0855_28229.jpg)
Finally done with that *DanG ceiling. Finished up the board and baton ceiling.
Jon
That looks mighty comfortable in that cabin. Thanks for the pics.
Wasn't there a friend or relative building nearby? If I have that right, how are those plans coming along or is it done?
Jon
Imagine the cabin is surrounded by a lot of snow nowadays. Wondering if you have managed to snowshoe back in?
I wonder what's going on up there, too. ???
Beenthere,
My younger brother was building on my property. However, he recently passed. Still figuring on what to do with the area he cleared. Might go with pole barn and shop.
Been quite busy this winter with other things. In a few weeks I have a trip planned to snowshoe into the cabin for the weekend and burn off the pile of slabs from last year's milling.
Jon
Jon
Very sorry to hear that bad news.
But enjoy the memories best you can, and make the best of the great cabin in the woods that you have.
Look forward to hearing about your trip in on the snowshoes.
Just finished reading about your cabin. Enjoyed it. It is amazing,what you can accomplish with hard work and determination. Congratulations on a fantastic job.
Thanks. The work is never done. However, now that I have a roof and heat, well, it don't take much to convince me to sit on the deck and drink beer when I really should be cutting and felling.
Anyway...finally, this week the temps broke and things are starting to warm up. Should be able to get to the ranch in a few weeks.
I really enjoyed your build. It's so nice to have a very peaceful place to just sit back and enjoy all the hard work one has done. I started my camp build and it is a long way to go.