What's white oak sawlog stumpage in your area? I noticed it has dropped in my area since last quarter from $170mbf to $45! Is it expected to go up? What's the deal?
I don't know if this comment is worth posting or not; But, back at the end of June I spoke with a friend of mine who is the top-man in charge of shipping from Jim Beam. He told me that they were buying all the white oak they could get to use as barrel staves.
It's hard to imagine that white oak is going for nothing. In my opinion white oak is the most useful of all hardwood species.
Jasperfield
White oak as a "stave log" must be a minimum of 18", straight, 3 clear sides and no knot over 2" dia. or you get pallet or sawlog prices for it, if it does meet the specs they're paying $70.00 a ton for it down here.
White oak prices are very low here. Our quality isn't very good.
We can't find enough white oak to saw for my orders. I'm sawing posts and beams for houses. I just finished one house now theres another to saw. We have a real nice white oak here but just can't find anyone cutting timber with the way things are. I got 3 trailer loads about a week ago and have used that all up. Wish I had another 10-15 thousand feet. Guess I'll have to go shopping up in my back woods to get the orders done.
Its a matter of hammering the markets too hard. White oak was one of the few things that remained consistently better than average here in PA through the summer, but when you get mills from New England through the Carolinas and west through Illinois or wherever white oak stops its range you have to figure that sooner or later that amount of supply is going to flood the chain. With so many mills fighting to move their lumber everyone hopped on the white oak and now its back in the crapper. Probably a good thing though, considering the bigger mills jack the prices of stumpage way up not realizing that by the time they cut the timber, truck it back to the mill, and then process it they are losing money. I dont know how half the mills around here keep their heads above water, and this downturn is starting to shake out some of the less intelligent players.
We're still sawing and selling white oak. The prices for the uppers remains about 40% higher than red oak. The common grades are about the same. Last week we sawed a load of 4/4 and a load of 6/4. I still have orders for 4/4. Its been this way for the past 6 months. I've cut well over half a million bf of white oak this year, maybe more.
The mills that are getting shaken out in our area are loaded with debt, or they can't or won't make a quality product. Every time there has been a downturn, we've picked up sales. That's because those marginal producers are going down the drain. When markets were good, they would overlook those quality issues.
Ties and pallets still remain strong. That tells me that either a whole lot of mills have left the market or that there is still a demand for pallets, which means manufacturing is still pretty strong.
Veneer markets have tightened up somewhat. They are grading the logs a little harder. We haven't sold any stave logs in years since the last stave mill was sold to the Japanese and they made a bunch of barrels, then closed it down.
Getting back to the original question, price is pretty dependent on the area you are in. What we have to give for white oak is a lot different from your market. Our quality, markets and competition is a lot different. A lot of our white oak includes chestnut oak. When the quality is there, it puts out lots of good quality lumber.
very low prices for WO in southern nh.
Couldn't bring myself to cut sawlog trees for firewood, so the critters are getting acorns for thanksgiving.
Good Feller
Have you investigated any of the sales that the state of Iowa has up for bid, or sales that have already been bid out and are being cut?
Might give you some ideas and knowledge about what is being marked (to see if it fits your own ideas), what conditions are expected of the loggers, and what the stumpage is selling for (from the bid information).
Don't know that it is that easy, but there is a site I ran across.
http://www.iowadnr.gov/forestry/timbersales.html
White oak was one of the few species holding value but I've noticed the same as you they have really gone down in price.
Too bad you're so far away. I have been looking for some wo butt logs.
Went to a bid opening last week on a sale handled by a consulting forester. Total volume was about 135MBF International 1/4". Most of the sale was white oak, average tree size for wo was about 250 MBF International 1/4". The sale brought about $250/MBF, down about 1/3 -1/2 from this time last year.
The forester wasn't sure, but thinks the wo will go to China after being sawed. About every other species here is in the toilet right now.
I'm pretty sure it's impossible to know what the price of stumpage is in Iowa... Check it out..
http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/econ/data/prices/
All I get is "walnut is up" or "red oak is down".... Wow that tells me a lot. I'll settle for a FAIR estimate. The DNR ,govt, whoever needs to provide this information to prevent the public from getting screwed for one thing.
It's just like anything else.... If you were curious what your house was worth you wouldn't settle for ohhhh it's worth a lot or ohhhh it's not worth much.
Didn't a wise feller start a forum over this very issue of protecting the landowner. ;D
You know what,,, as long as Iowa gives it's forest landowners 0 information about stumpage prices I guess that favors guys like me. I think it is still unfair to landowners.
I can somewhat find out what prices are through my sources. The more the landowner depends on me for help with timber the more that will benefit me.
Good Feller, you might be surprised at the number of landowners that read this Forum. Landowners have friends that own land who in turn know more people. The internet makes this a small world. Especially when the Forestry Forum is so easily found when looking for information on the subject.
As an example, try searching google for Timber Buyer and see where it leads you. That's a term that many landowners will use to look for someone. In fact over the last 8 years, thousands upon thousands.
You should be aware that your words may be read by those that may need your services, or someone else someday. :)
Good Feller, I am not being critical here, but it is your job to know what white oak prices, or other commercial species, are in you area. That is one reason that people would hire you. Talk to the loggers. Like Beenthere said, research the recent sales. Talk to the mills. Then you can tell your customers what the price options are.
The last I checked, the government doesn't know the prices of any commodity. What's your house worth? You don't go to the government to find out. What's your car worth? No government report there, either. So, why do landowners and foresters expect something different from the government?
When I started in this business nearly 40 years ago, there wasn't anything like the Internet to even talk to any other people. I had to get information by going out and working in the business. I had the degree, but no experience. I built my own network. I eventually got to the point where I could sit down with the head of the DCNR, the head of the Game Commission, researchers in the Forest Service, any sawmill owner, and many landowners.
You have to get off your butt and get to work. They didn't give you the information in school, you had to dig for it. That's part of the education process. Get involved. Nothing is going to be dropped in your lap, so don't expect it.
Ditto! to the above.
Get out into your local "Forestry Network" and learn what is going on in your area for applied forestry, markets, etc. Visit mills, get to know the local loggers, timber buyers, othe consultant foresters in tour area etc, attend local Conservation District meetings, join the state Forestry Association, Society of American Foresters, Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc. (ACF) etc. ACF has a mandatory training course for new consulting foresters. It would be worth your time to take it also.
See if there isn't a veteran consulting forester in your local area that can mentor you. I have and continue to mentor and give advice to new and seasoned consultants
as they ask for it in my work area. I now refer a lot of my work to them as I try to retire again. ;) Get into the local consultant network also. If there isn't one, develop it.
Jeff,
I don't see how what I said would make a landowner mad... I was trying to stick up for them.
The advice that "been there "provided is how I learned the basis for timber sales in iowa.I would contact the district forester who marked and prepared the bid package I would walk these sales and attend the bid openings most of the completed sale info was availble on line. I also watched as many private sales as I sales as i could. I have had better luck with cutting my timber myself or custom hire the cutting and bidding the logs on the landing. With the high cost of trucking it gives the closest mills an advantage on the low quality wood. I curently have a small cut on a farm I own north of albia. It is all walnut and will be complete in about a week. good luck"
As always,,, thanks for the advice guys. I'm just getting frustrated if you can't tell.
Don't get frustrated and don't keep your mouth shut. These are good issues to discuss here. We are not trying to hurt your feelings or badger you. What you are doing is extra tough since you are starting out on that path rather than moving into it from having worked for a time in the Industry.
If some of our advice is candid, that is because of what has happened to us in our own experiences. I hope that you keep the conversation going.
Quote from: Good Feller on October 08, 2008, 03:44:21 PM
Jeff,
I don't see how what I said would make a landowner mad... I was trying to stick up for them. I'll see you guys later.
Good Feller,
As a land owner, I feel that I can clarify the statement that Jeff made. It was some good advice, and here is why.
Foresters, of late, have been having a really tough time making a living. Part of it is the economy. Part of it is the lack of Foresters promoting themselves as an industry. Part of it is regulations imposed by "environmental" groups who's agenda diametrically opposes good Forestry. Part of it is competition by people who claim to be Foresters who aren't. And, part of it is caused by Foresters, who have no "bedside manner" stepping on their own toes.
I'm not a Forester, I'm a landowner. I'm educated, somewhat, in Agriculture so I have some mighty good Forester friends and rub shoulders with them in seminars and coffee shops. Some, usually the youngest, have formed cliques that are filled by Foresters who think it is "smart" to demean landowners and loggers. By doing so, they have alienated themselves from the business end of the industry.
There are some instances where a Forester can make demands. Those jobs are usually found in Large paper companies or Government. Even those may find that a negative attitude will affect their ability to get ahead, or even hold a job.
Those who are in the open market, trying to consult, and trying to obtain and keep clients, find out, in time, that "the landowner is where the money is". You build a base of clientele by educating those who don't know about Forestry and recognizing the worth of those who do. Most landowners, with the gumption to hire a Consulting Forester, either know a pretty good bit about Farming trees, Forestry in general, or are looking for help. None of them appreciate being downgraded. Contrary to popular belief, the agricultural community is a small society where word gets out quickly. If you want to succeed in this community, you don't talk about any of its members in a degrading way, regardless of what you think. I'll guarantee you that a slip of the tongue in the coffee shop will not only find its way back to the person who was demeaned, but will be all over the community in a week. You will find yourself to be an outsider in no time flat.
If you want a career dealing with the public, you have to learn that it's not like robbing banks. You can't just go take it when you want, you have to woo your customers into accepting you as both an authority and a friend. You should realize that there is really a lot of intelligence and knowledge out there. Even if a lot of it was gathered through age and experience, it is as good as that which was learned from a textbook in an educational facility. You can't make the assumption that a non-Forestry-school-educated land owner is more ignorant than you are. That would be demeaning to the land owner and business suicide to the Forester.
As an elderly land owner, I stay away from people who think they know everything and who believe that I know nothing. It might be fun to stand in the corner with your buddies, slapping each other on the back and laughing about ignorant/dumb landowners, but it does nothing but alienate you. Your Forestry friends who have developed a "bed-side manner" will leave you in their dust.
Given freely as friendly advice.
Very good advice there Tom, for anyone to follow, or practice...regardless of their business or profession, or who are their customers. And well said too. :) :)
Here's hoping Good Feller will hang in there and let the FF give him a step up. Seems GF has the determination to make it work, if he can just get past some of the obstacles that are in his way.
Hang in there, GF
"I'm pretty sure it's impossible to know what the price of stumpage is in Iowa... "
Not sure what you are looking for. In my previous post I gave the stumpage price for my area with the results of a timber sale a few days ago. There were 5 bidders there, all within a few thousand dollars of each other. Probably the closest bids I've ever seen here. Usually in bid sales here the lowest bid is about 1/2 the high bid. Not so this time. Pretty good idea of stumpage prices at that time.
Like other posters have said, I go to sales, ask other foresters and sawmills, etc. Virginia also posts prices from TimberMart South, but I don't rely on those since they are usually pretty far off our local prices. How do I know that? I go to bid openings, talk to other foresters...........,