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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: campy on February 04, 2009, 08:42:41 AM

Title: When is a log too small
Post by: campy on February 04, 2009, 08:42:41 AM

I have a couple of tree guys or arborists that bring me lots of wood.
Most of what they bring me is not worth putting on the mill.

If I have a 10 inch diameter log that is 10 feet long should I make it into firewood or boards?
I spent yesterday dealing with all of the ugly logs and making them into firewood.

I could not help wondering whether I was being wasteful?

Also, what is the fastest/easiest way to chop up all those slabs.
I have a huge pile of slabs !

What I do is walk around the pile and cut off logs, load them on a trailer and dump them on a pile in the back corner of my lot for use as firewood.

Maybe there is a faster way?  I am not looking forward to making logs out of this huge pile.

Also, I take the 4 to 6 inch logs with good bark and make them into shiitaki mushroom logs.
I just started this but it is a good and almost free source of food.   One drills holes in the logs and puts special dowels into them, covering with wax after.  In about a year there is suppose to be crops of shiitaki mushrooms lasting several years.

Thanks for any ideas you may have ...



Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Tom Sawyer on February 04, 2009, 08:59:09 AM
Depends a bit on the species.  Walnut or cherry I would definitely a saw a 10" log into boards.  Pine, only if it was straight and clear.

Tom
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: brdmkr on February 04, 2009, 09:02:01 AM
Campy,

I face the same issue.  I will saw the smaller logs if they are straight and look like they will make decent lumber.  I have a swing mill, so I fully understand how aggravatin' those small logs can be.  I just don't like to think of them going to waste.  Unfortunately, I do not have a good fix for the slab issue.  I cut a lot of SYP so there is  not much demand for the slabs as firewood.  I burn them, but I hate to see all of those BTUs being wasted like that.  Someday, I hope to have an outdoor wood stove, I would burn pine in that.

Funny about the mushrooms, I just inserted 300 plugs myself (about 2 months ago).  Maybe we can share fungi stories this summer :D  I am hoping that the shitakes do well.  Problem is, I like mushrooms, but that is going to make a heap of mushrooms :o :o :o
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: tcsmpsi on February 04, 2009, 09:41:44 AM
Ultimately, a log is too small when it won't cinch up in the clamps well.

Some of the small, crooked ones, I split with the mill to put on the slab stack to render into firewood.  I stack my slabs in a rack and cut them into firewood. 

As brdmkr mentioned, if it is a good, straight log, to me, it's worth the building material it will produce.  And the slab firewood.

Ike has left me many such dilemmas.   :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: ErikC on February 04, 2009, 11:21:48 AM
  I saw with a swingmill so the small logs are a little less appealing. But I can think of one job I did where they were all 10' logs with 8-12" tops. Ponderosa and sugar pine.  Hundreds and hundreds of them. In the end it was a lot of pretty nice lumber. My small log methods became pretty effecient during that time as well. If your machine can do it, why not?
As long as the firewood gets burned, it is not waste. You may be able to cut and sell firewood out of some of those logs and make more than you would sawing. If so, why not?
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Tom on February 04, 2009, 11:29:22 AM
If I'm asked by the fellow bringing me the logs, I tell him that the smaller they are the straighter they need to be.  A straight line from one end to the other needs to remain inside of the log.  That is only one board.
I also say that 9" on the small end is the smallest optimum log I would prefer.  By the time you take the outside boards off of a straight 9" dia. log, you are lucky to get 6" wide boards.   Nine inches is the widened hand span, tip of thumb to tip of little finger, of most men and easy to measure.   

Ticsmumpsi makes a good observation that size of the log be determined by the ability to clamp it on the mill.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: metalspinner on February 04, 2009, 11:46:42 AM
Would a 6" square cant or timber bring more $$ than six 6" boards, half of which are pith boards?

I am collecting logs to build a drying shed and am in need of 6" square timbers.  That sounds like a good way to use borderline useful logs.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: MrMoo on February 04, 2009, 01:48:28 PM
All the 4x4 posts in the loft of my barn came from 7" or so Hemlock logs. With the small logs I was able box the heart and get a good post.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: woodrat on February 04, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
I'll cut down to whatever I can hold in the clamp, if it is straight enough, or interesting enough wood.

I've grown shiitake mushrooms in small alder logs, 3-7 inches or so. It works, but it took a few tries to work the bugs out of the system.

Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: WDH on February 04, 2009, 04:19:58 PM
A log is too small for me when I am sawing it and my back is breaking, sweat is pouring off me, and I ask myself, "Why are you busting your DanG to saw this??????? ??? ???.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Cedarman on February 04, 2009, 04:56:55 PM
When the value received from sawing the log is less than the cost of sawing the log including wages for me.  To me size isn't the most relavant factor.  A big log with lots of rot can be a real loser.   A 6" x 8' cedar that costs $4.40 and yields a 4x4x8 worth $10.00 plus about a buck for the mulch that comes from the slab. It just runs down the belt into the hog and blown into the truck.  No labor for mulch.  So that is $6.60   Doing it manually takes about 4 minutes, on the scrag less than a minute.

It is return on time and equipment invested that determines how small a log you can saw if making money is the criteria.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: bull on February 04, 2009, 05:04:42 PM
all depends on your equipment and your market, I will take anything down to 4 inch tip straight and 8 inch tip with any sweep... when I am in need of logs.... all small logs are three sided and sent thru the resaw..
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: okie on February 04, 2009, 06:35:55 PM
If they're straight I saw them. I have a swing blade mill and on a 10" log I try for a good 6x6 and burn the rest. It is just a pain for me tobreak the log into lumber as it is so light. I have gotten alot of 6x6 and 4x4 posts this way.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Old Iron nut on February 04, 2009, 08:28:54 PM
The way to saw slabwood is with a tractor mounted buzz saw. It sure beats the hell out of chainsaws.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: redprospector on February 04, 2009, 08:59:54 PM
On Pine my cut off is 10", anything smaller and the profit goes down.
I don't consider burning small wood a waste, it's a utilization.
I hate dealing with slab's, so I'm watching close how others are doing it too.

Andy
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: WH_Conley on February 04, 2009, 09:03:46 PM
Cedarman nailed it, cost vs return, to me that is 10 inches. No mulch, hardwood. 10" log is a 6x8 tie with wane or 2 cants. 9" IF I have an order for 6x6's, if not, firewood. With our markets here the lumber is not worth sawing.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: dad2nine on February 04, 2009, 10:20:07 PM
I'm the odd guy out, hardwood nothing less than 12" inside the bark.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: backwoods sawyer on February 05, 2009, 01:19:35 AM
If it clamps up and will make a board, it is big enough for me.
As far as slab wood goes, making a tight stack on a wood platform to begin with, makes cutting down thru the stack with a long bar the most efficient method for me.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: LeeB on February 05, 2009, 03:00:38 AM
When there is no profit, good use or value in it. I have sawn 2 1/2" top cedar poles in half because the customer wanted to use them on a gate that way. At $40/hr it was a good deal for me and they were happy with it.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: bandmiller2 on February 05, 2009, 05:27:42 AM
Campy,if its your hobby you cut what you want,if your livelyhood, you cut what feeds the bulldog.For slabs I built a long sawhorse,located on the offbearers side of the mill.Slabs and edgings get laid in that when full chainsaw to whatever legnth you burn.Frank C.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Meadows Miller on February 05, 2009, 06:34:33 AM
Gday

On the table top mill ill go down to 6" dia and 8' min and with the lucas 12" x 8' min so both machines work in well together  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Im gonna solve my Trash problem by just letting the pile get to around the 600 to 1000 ton mark then im hireing in a large Contractor with a trough feed grinder and excavator grinding it and selling it in bulk loads to Bark King a larger wholesaler the down side is the grinder costs $800 bucks an hour  :o  good news is itll grind about 100 to 140 ton an hour about 200+ yards ph  8) so it will only be one or two days a year that we have to do cleanup  ;) ;D ;D

Or Ill just do it the old fashoned way Puppa and the old man use to 50' wide 20'+ high and 150 200 foot long and just light er up each winter and have a bit of a pissup with the mates each sat night for over a month  ;) :D :D :D ;D the EPA would love that one

Chris
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: snowman on February 07, 2009, 11:04:34 AM
I did verticle siding on my barn and sawmill building with small doug fir. 1x4 and even some 1x3. Well worth the effort i think.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: ljmathias on February 08, 2009, 07:07:06 AM
I'm about to cut siding for the house I'm building for my MOL so I've been searching like crazy.  The idea of using smaller logs sounds great- when you say vertical siding, are you talking about board and batton? If so, I assume the 1X3s are the battons, no?  Oh, by the way, we really like pictures...

Lj
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: backwoods sawyer on February 08, 2009, 09:25:32 AM
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17725/christmas_tree%7E0.JPG)
When is to small? when it is to small to clamp up.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Banjo picker on February 08, 2009, 09:44:23 AM
A log is too small if you have more than one inch clearance on each side between it and the roller guide.   :D

Always wanting them to be and inch or two bigger.  Kinda like the weather, always wish the rain would hold off one more day.   ;D  Tim
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2009, 12:07:55 PM
Backwoods Sawyer,
How did you split that little Christmas tree?

...and why? :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: SamB on February 08, 2009, 06:21:15 PM
Quote from: Tom on February 08, 2009, 12:07:55 PM
Backwoods Sawyer,
How did you split that little Christmas tree?

...and why? :D
Tom,

Backwoods may have come up with a new way to market live Christmas tress! ;D City folks might like that concept, just got to figure a way to keep the pine sap off the wall. :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2009, 06:34:55 PM
Heck yeah!  I can picture it.

Just glue the half to the wall and save space.  Those in New York City that rent 300 sq ft apartments for $4000 a month will be happy. ;D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: MikeH on February 08, 2009, 09:57:38 PM
Excellent pic Backwoods :D :D :D Well done
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: backwoods sawyer on February 08, 2009, 11:35:03 PM

Quote from: Tom on February 08, 2009, 12:07:55 PM
Backwoods Sawyer,
How did you split that little Christmas tree?

...and why? :D
The how was easy just clamped the branches below the stem between a pair of 2x6 and leveled it up.
The why is a bit of a mystery to even myself, things were a bit slow at the time, just to see if it could be done more then anything.
I nailed one to one fence post, the other to the next fence post and it has worked as an advertisement gimmick, and I have been staying busy since, so it seems to have worked.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: snowman on February 09, 2009, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: ljmathias on February 08, 2009, 07:07:06 AM
I'm about to cut siding for the house I'm building for my MOL so I've been searching like crazy.  The idea of using smaller logs sounds great- when you say vertical siding, are you talking about board and batton? If so, I assume the 1X3s are the battons, no?  Oh, by the way, we really like pictures...

Lj
My intent was board and batton after boards fully dried but I am so happy with the way it looks I will probly leave it as is. The sawmill is kinda see through but it's a sawmill with a 25 ft opening, no biggie. The barn is really a shop and wood storage area. The shop ill line inside of siding with felt,insulate and put interior wood in. The 1x3 I mentioned are mixed in with 1x4, looks great, nothings twisred at all, 2 years now. As for pics may be I'll try again, never been able to do it yet :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: tcsmpsi on February 09, 2009, 04:07:34 PM
For the 25 yrs I have owned the present property on which I reside, along with my Yaupons and other trees, plants and critters of diverse species and familia, I have nurtured a couple sassafras trees (there are many more on the place, but these were the 'biggest').  A couple months ago, I found that the tree trimmers had been out servicing the power lines, by the limbs stacked by the road in front of the place.  Being I leave before daylight and get in after dark, I did not notice anything out of the ordinary.  Sat., I got in before dark and something didn't look quite right.  Upon investigation, they had come in the fence and cut down my sassafras trees.

Now, in this part of the world, sassafras seldom gets more than 4-5" dbh.    These two were already surpassing that, and I was looking forward to seeing them become the largest I had seen, so as to eventually mill them.  Not only did they cut them down, they cut them up in the most humiliating way.

I was able to salvage 4 pieces about 6" diameter and about 48-60" long.  Which I milled yesterday in finishing off this last milling of Ike's 'leftovers'. 

Ultimately,  I was glad to have them and they didn't seem too small at all.       ;D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: TheWoodsman on February 09, 2009, 05:55:21 PM
That would really "irk" me as well.   Sorry to hear that the sassy doesn't get very big down there.  I've had them up to 24" dbh several times.  I've "accumulated" several thousand bf over the year but just cannot decide what is worthy of such magnificence.   :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: WDH on February 09, 2009, 06:05:21 PM
Tcsmpsi, I hope that all the trimming did not traumatize the little yaupons :).  They are quite sensitive, you know ;D.  I am sure that you are taking good care of them.

Tcsmpsi, I see that your Forum name is a changeling.  Must be the onslaught of Yooper Night :D.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: tcsmpsi on February 09, 2009, 07:42:24 PM
Tom had to have some vowels, Danny.  Being a word fellow and all.    ;)

Actually, "irk" is a very diplomatic way of stating it, Woodsman.   :D
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: jimparamedic on June 09, 2009, 07:45:13 AM
If I have to split the log to use as fire wood than it will go through the mill. A 6" log makes a 4x4 if its short 4-5' than I use it for the bottom of my lumber piles. I go through these about as fast as driers. some times I just slab 2 sides if their not straight enough or I'm in need of timbers to stack lumber on.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: isawlogs on June 09, 2009, 07:05:21 PM
If it can make a 4 x 4 . it will be sawed . I dont like wasting good wood , knotty pine is a good looking to me as clear , actualy I prefer the knotty pine . It makes great looking  cabinets , has character . There is enough crooked wood around here to make fire wood out of that I aint gonna waste a good straight log . If I am sawing for someone and he has small logs in hte pile I will saw them , I figure there was labour involved in taking them out and pilling them , they must of known they was small and had a use for them .
  Idealy all logs would be 12 to 18 inches , they have meat and are easy to handle and cutquickly , so are profitable .. you have the larger logs that are time consuming and hard on machinery ...  the small logs I find easy to do , I have a hydraulique mill , so clamping two side by side is easy , I make wood out of what others would not saw. So maybe I dont make as much money on one job .. so Sawing to me aint about only how much I can make .. I have a happy customer that will/maybe call me back for more work in the future , that I find is much more important and maybe , maybe I make a friend or two along the way .
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: ladylake on June 09, 2009, 08:09:25 PM
 Some nice overrun comes from small straight logs, just sawed a 8"  x 8' log that scaled  10 bf , got 28 bf out of it.   Steve
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Cedarman on June 10, 2009, 07:14:17 AM
But on the cedar the scale says 8" is 19 feet so our scale steals some of that overrun footage.  But the volume of a log can increase 20% going from exactly 8" to 8.9"  So overrun can vary dramatically from 8" log to 8" log.
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: ladylake on June 10, 2009, 07:34:50 AM
 What kind of scale do you use for cedar?  Both the Doyle and Scribner say 10 bf for a 8" log.   Steve
Title: Re: When is a log too small
Post by: Cedarman on June 10, 2009, 11:01:20 AM
It is called the Kentucky cedar scale around here.  Arky has posted his scale somewhere.