Here it is Not for the faint of heart. I dont know what i am going to do with all thats left.
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There are a few more in My gallery. So what do you think will happen with this job? Ive never seen anything like this. All 50 acres are like this.
That is too bad.I suppose you was working this lot when the ice storm hit? Makes me want to cry to see all that damage.If i was the land owner,from what I can see,I would try to save,yard out to sell,what I could and just cut down what I felt I would not want to bother with.But I have the means and the know how to do all that,or think I do.I don't see how a person could make money on that mess now.
Well with my cutter i can clean up everything pretty easy. Its going to be alot of work but its do able. I know there is going to be alot of wood haveing to come out. I should have enough wood to late me at the mill for a long time. Times have got tough and we are going to have to sell our shaver. To bad cause alot of this wood would go great in it.
Dagburnit Semo, that's some real devastation! Was this supposed to be a thinning cut? It's looking more like a clear cut and start over project, now. The landowner is lucky he already had the cutting underway, or nobody would touch it now. Is that typical of the damage in your area?
That is a shame. This is a case where you should cut it all as soon as possible and simply start over with a new stand. This one looks wrecked. Kinda like what Katrina did to 300,000 acres of my company's land in SE Louisiana and South Mississippi.
Well there is alot of down trees but nothing as bad as this. There are just a handfull of these lobolly stands around here. All the other stands of native pine are not to bad some damage was done to them but nothing this severe.
I cut a patch just like this one a couple of years back. I need to go check on it sometime. I know a guy around sikeston Mo That has around 500 or more acres of lobolly. He said he got hit pretty hard also. And that is his own stand no goverment help. This stand I am on is owned be a land owner and he is on all goverment programs were he gets paid to have his timber on his land. He has really been getting hounded by the CRP and FSA people about getting it done. They have been pushing or he was going to have to pay back in all the money he has got in the past 18 years. So i am waiting to hear what the outcome is going to be on what i have to do.
ScottAr is down in Paragould Ar and they dont have power in the whole town yet. He hasnt been on since Jan 27. I know there are lobolly patches down there around his area.
This was a thinning. I was thinning it to 250 trees per acre. If i was over 300 or less than 200 The job would not of passed. I think that it wont pass now. I am hoping they just say clear it. About all the trees that are standing have the tops broke from 3 feet to more. I dont think That any of the trees that are layed over will make it also. Soon as we get a wet spring and a little wind they will uproot i think.
Here are a few pitchures of what it looked like before. I hadnt thinned any yet.
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From what I'm understanding it was bad timing.If the land owner did not have you in there cutting the damage would not of been bad.But since there was a bunch of trees that had been cut,the trees left had not a chance to get used to not having another tree to protect them.Hind sight is 20/20.Can not stop what mother nature will throw at us.
Maybe it is just me, and I don't know the silvics of loblolly. But it looks like that stand was real tall and skinny from being planted too tight and left too long. I can see more robust trees that didn't get any damage much and the skinny ones have all been lopped over. A stand a yellow birch left like that would also fall over after a thinning, just from wet snow and possibly as soon as sap flow started in spring.
Even in areas that i didnt get the rows cut out got wiped out also.
If I could make one observation, while in the Adirondack many years ago, immeadiately after a similarly devastating ice storm I saw trees bent like that and thought "give them a year to stabilize like that and you have OUTSTANDING rustic headboard stock". I would not venture to know anything about that market demand, but they look REALLY close to right diameter for such projects. I would say to try and market some to that crowd. There is a guy in Mich. called Bim Willow, he has a rustic furniture site, try working through him to market some of that. Just an idea.
Ironwood
That is a mess . A lot of spring poles in there , be dam carefull when going at this . I know you have been around and no need to warn you about those , but one can never be carefull enough out there . ;)
I'd chip it all and put it back in shortleaf. Seems a little too far north for loblolly.
Has the shaving market gone down the tube, like the lumber market ???
Seems there would be good shaving stock in that mess. Most trees are nearly de-limbed ???
Can't understand selling the shaving mill ???
Need the money. Either sell the shaver or the bank will Take back the skidder. I know were i can get another shaver tomarrrow. Cant get another skidder. Shaving market is good I can sell all i produce. I haave a post peeler and am going to make post. of all the small stuff.
Quote from: Riles on February 06, 2009, 08:54:03 AM
I'd chip it all and put it back in shortleaf. Seems a little too far north for loblolly.
I was told by my friend thats a retired forester and he said the same thing to me. The trees were doing great till now.
As far as chipping them I cant there is no market for pine pulp or chips around here. I am just going to get out what i can use.
No worries I sawlogs spring poles dont bother me to much. Sitting behind a thick piece of lexan glass keeps me safe. I wouldnt even attempt to cut this with a chain saw. No way.
Swamp Donkey,
That stand looks pretty typical for a pulp plantation in the south. It was definitely ready for its thinning, but looks like it was still growing OK.
They are planted close to encourage pruning. Thinning is more dependent on the crown closure than girth, though girth benefits from it. The thinning was definitely needed, but I hate it when a government authority starts telling the landowner what to do. There are tax authorities that will intimidate a landowner with loss of agricultural zoning if they don't perform certain functions at certain times, under the auspice of the landowner proving that he is a bonafide agricultural venture. The land is a business that belongs to the landowner and I think he should be able to grow and harvest his trees whenever he wants to do it.
Who was to know that an ice storm was coming?
With damage like that, starting over is about the only answer. What a shame. At least the logs will make good pulp, just as the thinning would have. Too bad the price is in the toilet like it is. I would be crying in my beer.
That was on its way to being a good looking stand of loblolly, in my opinion. I would certainly have liked to have seen it a year or two after the thinning.
Forcing a landowner to perform silviculture and harvesting functions regardless of the market or aesthetics, is what Certification is all about. It's just someone else with their thumb on you. :)
Tom,
While I certainly share your distaste for the government telling the landowner how to manage their land, this was a case of the landowner taking money from the government to abide by a certain program. If you want to keep the money, you abide by the original agreement. If you don't want someone telling you how to manage, don't take their money for agreeing to manage under their terms.
I'm still under the opinion that those trees were too week to stand. Up here we go for diameter growth over an 80 year horizon, making sure the timing is right such that trees are spaced and have the strength to stand. And yes, encourage self pruning along the way. The whole management thing is multifaceted including silvics and stand dynamics and risk management. Seems stand dynamics had little attention maybe, increasing some risk. Again just my opinion. Just like investing cash money folks. That being said I know what ice can do to pine right quick. ;)
I think the problem with those trees is that they were loblolly pines that were planted in Missouri. Loblollies are notoriously susceptible to wind and ice damage. That's why they don't grown naturally in my area. We have lots of stands that look like that (pre-ice storm, that is) in Georgia's more southerly stretches. You won't make it through a 30-year rotation this far north without at least one devastating ice storm.
The problem was not the thinning. That only made it worse. This ice storm would have trashed this stand even if it had not been thinned because this was no ordinary little ice storm. This was a big bad ice storm. Loblolly has needles that are too long to range that far north and be able to handle an ice storm of this magnitude. The needles get easily coated with ice, and the weight that accumulates breaks the tree. Shortleaf, having needles half the size of loblolly is better adapted to the ice. This needle length issue also limits the northern range of slash to about 150 miles from the coast.
There is a reason that loblolly does not naturally grow in that part of Missouri. Now you know what it is.
From my area south and to the east, we seem to get ice storms. North of here it is rare. We usually get our ice in February and March. One time it followed up the river valley and just a few feet in elevation to get above the main valley turned the weather to snow. So the mess was along the river and as soon as you went a couple woodlots deep away, there was no ice. Also it ran out at Bristol, as that seems to be the north edge of the ice belt which is pretty much east of here. I have never been with out power for very long here. I don't know if I lost power for 4 hours ever. Being just a little south of all those ice free (freezing rain) hydo dam locations helps I suppose, it doesn't rip down all the main distribution lines.
Here in Central Virginia, we are on the northern edge of the loblolly range. It is widely planted (I'm actually outside of its native range, but it has been naturalized). We are also in the ice belt, so ice storms are not unusual. You will find very few stands that have not been impacted to some extent.
With that said, there are some treatments that can be done to minimize ice impacts. Genetics play a minor role in ice susceptibility. Plant stock that is genetically suitable to your area of planting. Planting density also has some effect on the ability to withstand ice loads. Larger diameter trees display less damage than their smaller counter parts. Accordingly, plant fewer trees per acre to increase diameter growth. Personally, in ice prone areas, I would not plant more than 500 trees per acre.
Thinning regimes probably have the single biggest impact. We maintain higher residual basal areas than our counterparts further south. I'll target 85 square feet per acre in my first thinnings. This will translate to about 250 stems per acre in our typical stand. With heavier stocking levels, the trees will lend each other some support under ice loading. Once a hole starts, it tends to open in a domino effect.
Following an event, one needs to fully evaluate the stand prior to making the decision to liquidate. It should be based on the local current and projected markets. If the stand is approaching saw timber size and there is a significant value increase from fiber to sawtimber, be diligent in this effort. Stocking levels can be quite low and it still be in the best interest of the landowner to hold a few years prior to liquidating. I see quite a few privately owned stands in this area get clear cut when it may not be in the best finacial interest of the landowner. Once they have made it to 14-15 years old, they should be getting pretty close to having some small sawtimber / CNS in them. Liquidating as pulp at that point can have some high opportunity cost.
Top damage in itself should not drive the decision to liquidate. A tree with only a few green branches remaining has a high probability of survival (if it is still root firm). It will assume a dominant leader and continue to grow. You will have a dogleg but usable material may exist above the break in the future. There are a number of studies out there that can quantify this information. If there is the potential for a single butt log, and the tree will survive, it may be better to leave it than cut it for pulp now. However, if the tree will always be a pulpwood tree due to the damage, it is probably best to remove it now (factoring in flat prices and discount rates). Severely leaning trees have less chance of survival and bent trees are probably on their way out. Salvage these as soon as ground conditions permit.
All in all, decisions should be based on local markets. Here in my area the low end threshold is generally around 100 trees per acre (<45 square feet of basal area) free to grow. Above that take a hard look before clearcutting a stand that was on a sawtimber rotation.
One other thing.....following a storm, never look at a pine stand when it still has ice loading. It always looks much worse than it actually is. Plus, if you wait a few days the hunters will clear your roads for you. You can ride instead of walk. ;D
Wudman
I'm back online... Hide the children! ::)
All in this house are well... What a mess.
Got to go to work, more later.
Now you know what my front yard looks like ::) Cut a days supply of fire wood off my back porch :D Out of electric 12 days bet my insurance co finds a way not to pay >:(
a rocking chair factory should take all of those :D
As promised, the saga begins...
The whole town of Paragould and most of it's neighbors went black.
The main cross-country line supplying this whole area failed. That was
repaired pretty quickly and then they started working on the main loop
that feeds the town. We got power at the house not quite two days
after this mess started so we were **Very** fortunate. Some out in
the rural areas are still out. The power crews have been asking farmers
for help getting to the lines. Pretty common to see a power truck
getting pulled/dragged across a muddy field by a 4x4 tractor.
Dad and I have most of our mess cleaned up but still have some trees
to take down. Two were badly damaged several years ago in another
winter storm and frankly after this, there's not much tree left. The
backhoe started putting coolant into the crankcase so I gotta fix that
first. Lost my favorite bird watching tree.
The whole area have been invaded, first by power crews and now by
tree services... Love the power crews, leery of the tree services...
We've been swamped at work selling supplies in a usually slow time
of the year for us. The bosses are happy but the Indians are weary.
Quote from: Wudman on February 09, 2009, 06:39:06 PM
You will have a dogleg but usable material may exist above the break in the future. Wudman
We got the big ice back in about 92 I believe. Now I have quite a few pines that are of decent size, but have the aboved mention dogleg. These trees were fairly small then, I wish I had cut them all down at the time and started over. I had a friend around Ripley ms. that had a track of pine that was just about ready to cut for power poles. They were all ruined.
On another note of the too close spacing. I can show you what a 30 plus pine will look like if you don't space them close. They may get girth quick but they also will put on so many branches that they wont make anything except maybe the knottly pine look of the 60's . Which I hapen to like. I have left them purposefully so saw when the time comes. Tim
I agree with you Banjo picker on spacing, but many folks don't follow up with intermediate spacings as the tree gains height. So you get your height growth but at some point you begin to lose strength and then a thinning is real risky business.
Glad to hear Paragould is coming back to life. Our local church association has a portable shower unit in town somewhere. Last I heard they are still there providing free hot showers to recovery crews. Also have a volunteer chainsaw crew working the area around springdale. Talked to our director sunday, he's trying to acquire a 30 kw diesel gen set to have available for the next ice storm, flood, tornado, etc.
Thanks Pineywoods... It actually could have been much worse here.
The town of Piggot (NE of here)was basicly wiped out as far as electrical infrastructure. Over 90% of their poles went down and the main lines to
the town were down for 5 miles straight(89 poles in a row).
A lineman I talked to says a crew can put up and wire about 5 poles a day
assuming good terrain and no problems so it could be awhile yet.
In the town I understand they were just unhooking the wires and sawing
off the rest of the pole and shoving it aside with a backhoe.
There's several
folks still out in the Boothill of MO. Kennett is about 75% restored.
My county just awarded the cleanup contract to a firm out of Poplar Bluff, MO.
I was hoping they would use someone semi local. Gonna be a mulch mountain
out at the landfill.
Quote from: pineywoods on February 17, 2009, 08:37:48 AM
Also have a volunteer chainsaw crew working the area around springdale.
Saw them either on the TV or in the paper. I was impressed because they had on all the protective gear...hardhat
and chaps. Heard some folks bragging on em in the restaurant also. 8) 8) 8)
The farmers that was pulling out the crews are making some good money also. I kow a farmer that went out and bought a skidder just for pulling. They are on call and makeing around a grand a day. I wish i would of got on that gravy train. Scott how bad did crowleys ridge get hit? I found a few patches on the google maps. Some looked to be pretty big one. I looked at one close to paragould a guy was already cutting it though. I bet it needs to be cleaned up.
As far as my job i am still waiting to find out what they are going to do. The forester was taking inventory today.
Crowley's ridge state park and Lake Frierson (sp?) state park are closed
to any and all visitors so I'd say it's pretty bad.
I wish I knew more but I've tried not to travel the back roads too much as
one runs up in the middle of the power crews and they don't need my help.
I took some gravel roads today to go around a crew up on the highway.
Traffic was backing up and that's when accidents happen.
Helps to know different ways to get places.
There's a field on hwy 49 by the best western with some thin, tall pine. Three quarters of them are sheared off somewhere between 15-25 ft off the ground.
I named it the field of spears... :-\
The brush trucks are rolling now, all of em are in a hurry and half of em don't know
where they're going. I find it odd they are driving past a local landfill with a wood
grinder somewhere south. I suspect Jonesboro; 25 miles away.
This **has** to have some goobermint doings.
At least yall in Ark have help removing the brush. We are on our own in Mo. I wonder why that is.
If you move all your brush next to the road. The state workers will come and pick it up and haul it away for ya. Is that like that down there?
Sounds like i need to head down your way and try get some jobs lined out. I know they are going to need it to have clean up jobs on the pine. Getting trees with the tops broke out means less trimming i have to do. ;D
Has somthing to do with FEMA rolling in and declaring this or that...
All these trucks are private rigs, lots of strange accents at the
parts counter...All of em either have a company credit card or
hundred dollar bills...
Every tree in the area got a haircut that's for sure...
I was down your way today Scott. We went to Johnesboro. I think i seen the Patch of pine you said looks Sprars. Looks bad thats for sure.
Funny lookin' huh...
Turns out I was incorrect about the dump site... They are hauling
to a mostly closed gravel pit and burning... Kind of shame
but what else do ya do with it... and what would ya do after
this short term waste problem was over...
Went to Marmaduke and worked with Dad today...
I hate to put it like this, but the tornado tearing through there
a few years ago saved quite a bit of their power system after it
blew down most of the trees in the north part of town. Course,
the lines to the town were downed by ice so I guess I'm just
rambling now... ::)
Quote from: ScottAR on February 22, 2009, 02:17:30 AM
Funny lookin' huh...
Turns out I was incorrect about the dump site... They are hauling
to a mostly closed gravel pit and burning...
Sounds great man big bonfire. I will bring the beer you bring the hotdogs. One of these days after things get straightend back up down there i would like to come down that way. I would like to take a trip around crowleys ridge. Have a look about.
Sounds good... I give a fair nickel tour...
Went back to Marmaduke and picked up our mess... Drove around
a little after that and every tree I could see of any size had damaged
or needed to be cut down.