It was only -10C or maybe +10F Saturday so I went logging. I need a whack o' junk logs to practice sawing this spring so I'm clearcutting about 1 acre. I was told a to get decent regen. the clearing has to have a diameter 2 1/2 times the height of the trees and they are 70-80 feet tall.
This tree set back on my wedges pretty hard so I took the easy way and tipped it over with the cat ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/DSCN0323.JPG)
This is the stump. What should I have done differently? Smaller notch? Leveler back cut?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/DSCN0324.JPG)
This is a typical drop, before I heard of bores or wedges.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371%3Cbr%20/%3E/349/DSCN0319.JPG)
Here is a typical cut with wedges tapped in behind the saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/DSCN0320.JPG)
My worst problem is getting a nice level cut with everything lined up - any secrets you can pass on?
Here's the whack o'logs I wound up with. The job is only 1/2 done.
So here's the logs. I almost lost the post, type too slow I guess :) :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/DSCN0321.JPG)
DanG thats too cold. I am no logger but that looks good too me and you are here to tell it. 8) 8)
Sprucegum
On first looks, two things seem apparent (to me).
Almost no hinge wood left....need the hinge wood to use the wedges effectively. I'm not sure how you kept that tree off your crawler. (but you did, and that is good)
Second, the wedges are a bit "thick" for sliding/driving into the saw kerf. That size tree should have lifted easily with two wedges. Apparently the wedges couldn't be pounded in more than what is shown in front of the crawler blade?
Now, some real help with answers may be coming from others. :)
Looks like a good time in the snowy woods. 8)
I'm no expert but this seems like one of the times when the answer really is use a BIGGER HAMMER ;) (And leave a bigger hinge)
I just looked at your pictures again. I just struck me that there is no rollbar or cab on the crawler.
Not that one would save you, don't be pushing trees like that in my humble opinion.
I may not know what I am talking about but listen to these guys with experience.
Gday
Sprucegum Tree Falling is the Second most Dangerous Occupation in the World Mate ;) ;D Your Scarf looks of sufficant depth (maby an extra inch deeper ;) ) angle looks a little low i use a 45o scarf angle which is enough for almost any job and i cut the 45o first followed buy the horizontal as its a hell of alot easyer to line up ;) with the back cut you are too low use the rule of a 1. to 1.1/2 step per foot of dia
and the holding wood Is tooo lite When im falling the tree is well and truly on its way by the time inm down to the 2 to 3 " mark left to go and then I just following it along so i minimise grane Pull ;) and i rarely use wedges maby 2 to 5% of the time ;) and thats when im trying to push a tree the way I want it to go ;) instead of he way it wants too ;) :D :D ;D
That brings me to the reason I think it Stood Up on You mate ;) and its the main thing that people Overlook when they start Falling :) ::) Head weight or lead which is most probobly one of the hardest things to learn how to read in a tree as you have to take into account Branching habit , Lean , Sweep You can have a tree that looks like its Braching is weighted to go one way then because off the tree sweeping back the other way it will want to Stand Up on you or Worse yet it if your too far into the back cut itll snap the holding wood and go anywhere it bloodywell wants too in a 360 deg radius :o :o And thats where things gett verry dangerous ;)
If Your just starting out with doing your own falling Id sugest Taking a 2 day corse in Manual Falling or getting a Profesonal Faller out with you for a couple of days ;) and also with pushing the tree over and working in the bush with the Cat id put a canopy over it Asap and if yout planing on pushing trees that stand up over make up a Tree speer to go over the blade as you need to be a good 8 to 14 feet + up the tree to be able gain more presure higher up the tree to control where its heading ;)
After all that Mate Ive worked out the bush without rops protection when i started out using a 35 fergy ;) :D so aslong as you take your time and and be cautious when selecting which way your going to drop the Tree & practice the 3 Ps Planning ,Patience , Precision ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) It looks like you got a fair bit of other timber out mate so one outa Afew aint that Bad Its all Experience ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)
Keep up the Good Work and Stay Safe Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)
Reguards Chris
Hinge wood reacts different when frozen.
It has a habbit of pulling out and not holding and it's anyones guess which way the tree is going to fall.
I would have wanted a rope in the top of that rather than being under it with a cat for that reason.
When they set back, bore straight into the back cut and set another wedge.
Sometimes you might have to stack your wedges.
A rope in the top pulling from a safe distance is a sure and safe method.
Leave a little more hinge, get yourself some plastic wedges with a litte less taper or cut those wedges to a little less taper, make sure that the tree wasn't hung up in the crown. You'll need to determine that before you start cutting. Use a 3-5 lb axe head or hammer to drive the wedges. Otherwise you should have been able to drop that tree with the wedges. You still had plenty of distance to drive the wedges in before hitting the hinge.
Since you're clearcutting fall them as they want. Don't fight em ;) :) I'd never push over a tree with a machine that didn't have a cab designed for possible impact. I know of too many instances of bad outcomes involving machines, especially dozers, used in the woods without cages.
Were the wedges placed in the cut before or after the tree set back?
Your wedges might be too smooth. When they're smooth and slick like the ones you picture they'll slide back out of frozen wood. That's why I use the plastic ones in the winter with a rough surface that will drive into a cut and grip without sliding back out when there is too much back pressure from the stem.
:P :P Some good pointers here, Thanks
Sounds like I need a bigger hammer and some better wedges :)
The wedges were placed in the cut before it set back so I had no trouble getting my saw out, I just couldnot hammer them in enough to tip it over.
I could let them drop where they may but I would rather learn to drop them where I want. It makes for easier skidding too.
I will work on the hinge size as well.
They should have lifted that tree but you really need to smack em.
Try to keep advancing your wedges with the bar.
Cut , hammer,cut, hammer etc.
You should never push trees over with the machine up against the tree, if it comes back the
opposite way it could land on top of the machine.. This goes for loader buckets, dozer blades
etc.
A fellow not too far from here was killed a few years back, he pushed on the tree with his tractor loader bucket the tree fell backwards over the tractor when the hinge broke on the tree and the machine pushed the tree off the falling side of the stump and killed him...also easy to damage the machine if it doesnot get you.
I always put a cable up as high as I can and pull them down after making sure me and the
machine are far enough away.
Looks like fun though...
In GOL Soren taught us to put in the back cut about an inch below the hinge when ya want to push the tree over with a skidder. It's not in the book so I can't say if it is approved or not...but I can tell you it works and works well.
GOL game of logging teaches 80% x 20% on hinge size so a tree that is 20" diameter should have a hinge 16" wide and 2" thick now ya needto cheet that alittle cutting high quality ash cherry and oak but it looks like you are cutting a soft wood. one rule you should never brake is DO NOT cut hinge all the way off once ya do.the tree can go any where. it also looks like your wedges are plenty thick thinner wedges will pound easyer.hope this helps
get wedges with a good gripping surface for frozen wood. They have a tendancy to fire back at you when you try to drive them. If you drive the wedge all the way in and you need more lift, cut a cookie from a nearby log or stump and put it under your othe wedge. I have found that stacking wedges doesn't work in the winter. Just passing on my limited experience.
Nick
Hey sprucegum: great thread,thought I might add a couple of thoughts that relate to my circumstances. I try to keep in mind which way is south because a lot of times the tree will be heavy that way as it is drawn to the sunlight. Wind is always considered as shifts occur with the tides and gusts are common. The effects increase with dominancy and crown shape. Where possible I try to cut in a circle pattern that way you can cut on whichever face works best to deal with wind etc but and you can work in the sun or shade as desired. A crosspiece on the ground about 3' out makes hitching easy. I like wedges of different width and thickness. They tend to adjust on length by themselves. :-\ The smaller steel wedge is helpful if you get pinched. Keeping an eye on the kurf from the saw, can be an indicator that the tree is rotten and options may want to be considered.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12754/Wedges.jpg)
I have seen those bright wedges in the store, I'm gonna get me some!
OK, no more pushing with the cat :-* new wedges and a heavier axe instead of the hatchet should mean I never need to anyway.
Do I understand correctly? - the back cut should be 1 or 1.5 inches above the level of the notch on a 20" tree? Most of mine are 8 - 14" DBH but I see the relation.
Shoot For level. The 80 % is length and is good. the 20% is max thickness as any thicker and barber chair /fiber pull will happen. Both % are based DBH. The % will have to be adjusted to species and location. As 20% will pull a bunch of fiber in Hickory
I pack a 5 # felling axe and are hard to find. Smaller trees are hard to fell as their is little room for error and wedges for lifting power.
You dont drive a wedge like a nail. Hit pause wait and then hit again. Driving like a nail will cause it to back out as vibration bounces back.
2 wedges side by side will help in a heavy lift. hit one then the other back and forth.
Buy a couple 10 inch wedges and a couple 12 . 8 inch wedges are mostly a waste to me,too short too much taper.
Dale;
When you say shoot for level do you mean a back cut that's level with the apex of the notch?
I stack wedges all the time in smaller trees with back lean because of the short driving distance to the hinge.
If they are popping out try drifting them across each other.
It looks like you are on the right track and that tree could have been easily wedged over.... All you had left was to drive it home. The tree must have had a tad of back lean and that why it sat back on the wedges... That's ok though and that's what wedges are for. Next time, as you pound in the wedges alternate back and forth and they'll go in easier. I don't know about wood wedges but that's how it works with plastic. Don't push a tree that has sat back with a dozer,,,, especially one with no ROPS/FOPS!!!!
You can't do it by the book everytime especially when you are just starting out. If I had to be critical..... it looks like you:
Made the notch maybe a little too deep and not steep enough. After you pull your notch wood out measure the stump width where the top and bottom cuts meet, it should be 80% of the diameter breast high of your tree.... That's the text book answer. Also shoot for an angle of 70-90 degrees on the notch,, Your's looks like about a 45.
It doesn't look like you bore cut it. Either way, your back cut looks ok and pretty level. Practice will make it more level. Keep it within +/- 1" of where your two notch cuts meet.
Your hinge does look thin.... and almost non existent on one side. Your hinge thickness should be 10% of the trees dbh. If you have a 10" tree we are talking a 1" hinge. No thicker. And some species you may find that you need to go less than 10% to prevent pulling splinters. Don't let the splinters remaining on the stump reach more than 3" high.
So, the #1 thing I seen wrong is you didn't drive the wedges.... and you 'bout killed yourself on the dozer....
At age 60 you are probably one of those old stuborn guys that doesn't take advice.... If you do take advice,,, I'll tell you right now to sign up for a professional timber harvesting course. It'll probably cost a couple hundred bucks but it's worth it if you enjoy living.
If you are too stuborn for that.... take a night off and go here and learn a thing or two. http://www.memic.com/publications_library/ProductionFelling.pdf
Learn to bore cut. It is hands down the safest way to cut trees.
I guess Good Feller didn't read the responses already given in this thread. ::) ::)
Or if he did, he just wanted to say them all again in a more stern and condescending manner.
GF didn't have to be critical...we've been trying to not be critical of GF's green-horn approaches to Forestry. And to indicate someone is one of the stubborn guys that doesn't take advice, is a bit demeaning of us old guys, as well as a bit obnoxious.
GF...what is going on with you?
Nope, I didn't read 'em. I looked at the pictures and gave my 2 cents. Anyhow, from the looks of it, it wouldn't hurt for this old timer to have the information repeated a time or two for safety. BUT what do I know? I'm green.
Beenthere,
I love you too!!! It has been a while, did you miss me??? LOL. I see you still hold the position of Forestry Forum security....
GF
Didn't mean to twist your tail, but was a bit surprised you were thumping on a member who willingly posted his pics, and the discusssion was about something we can all learn from. From what Sprucegum said in his response, he did appreciate the concern and suggestions.
Now, can the following quotes be identified as to who wrote them?
QuoteAt age 60 you are probably one of those old stuborn guys that doesn't take advice.... If you do take advice,,, I'll tell you right now to sign up for a professional timber harvesting course. It'll probably cost a couple hundred bucks but it's worth it if you enjoy living.
If you are too stuborn for that.... take a night off and go here and learn a thing or two.
QuoteI know a lot of those guys mean well. Trust me, I know thousands of lbs of tree on top of you is not a good thing. I have a problem with people telling me I can't do something or to hang it up,,, which is exactly what I got from AS. That is not helpful,, it's rude more than anything, especially to someone that is competent at what they do.
sprucegum,I am new here and you might want to take my advice with a "grain of salt". that being said,it looks like you got the tree down safely and you are still around to talk about it, so good job sir!that wood your dealing with there doesnt seem to different than a pine or fir that I deal with here.have you ever tried a humbolt notch?my first cut,(bar flat,this is important),does not go more than a third or more depending on tree,this is where you use the thin black line thats across your saw, ounce you get used to "gunning"as its called,you will get way more accurate.next, just pull your bar out,line up your dogs to your first cut(could be steep or shallow, depending on application)and undercut this tree.make sure your undercut is clean and strait.if your first two cuts lined up good,start your backcut.line up your back cut with the intersection of your first two cuts and bring her around.it is very important your cut line up to each other and your bar is level.add wedges as needed, this is starting to sound like a recipe.dont forget to leave hinge.I could go on and on,steep,bad ground, swinging dutchmans ect.stay safe,dan.
Good Feller;
It's the good nature of this forum to encourage people to ask questions and not dump on them when they do.
If anyone here hasn't messsed up on falling a tree then they haven't cut enough of them.
Age has nothing to do with being stubborn, everyone has something they can learn.
Gday
Ill second what Kevin Said mate ;) Us Young blokes can be a Just as Wild ifnot More So at times :o :) ::) as some of the oldrer Blokes Ive worked out the Bush with ;) ;) :D :D And I never post without reading the main Post & Replys Fully ;)
Spuuce I forgot to say in my first post I like your O'll Cat what model is it and can you get a full pic for us Mate ;) ;D ;D Ive had my eye on a an old 933 trackloader that needs abit of work Dads said just leave it there they have had their day ;) But itll come home with me one of these days Like everything ;) :D :D :D 8) ;)
Reguards Chris
That cat is almost as old as I am - and just as stubborn :D :D
It doesn't like to start at -20 so that's why I'm sitting here learning at the best library I have ever found. No need to worry about my feelings getting hurt, I learned how to separate the wheat from the chaff a long time ago.
I bought a couple good plastic wedges but I won't get to try them till next weekend :( at least it will be warmer then.
Gday
Like the old saying Mate ;) Old Cats never die they just stop spinning their Tracks ;) ;D
Your rite and I agree This is the Best place ive Ever found on the net ;) Ive tryed the rest Now found the Best ;) ;D 8) 8) and I like the Age mix we have on here Young and Old with alot of different Experiance levels and people Wanting to take it up as a profession ESP when the industry as a whole has been under constant attack for the last 40 years and seen smaller scale operations in decline ;) ;D ;D 8)
Reguards Chris
Just a word about ROPS cabs. A friend had a tree fall on his dozer during hurricane Ike's trip to Indiana. My brother tells me had that cab been occupied, there was no chance of survival. I am sure it was a much bigger tree than we are talking here, but I just don't like to depend on them.
Quote from: Kevin on February 28, 2009, 07:32:47 AM
Age has nothing to do with being stubborn, everyone has something they can learn.
Ask my mother, except substitute
stubborn with
contrary. But in the next breath I hear, " You come by it honest". My father is worst, when his mind is made up that's the way he's gonna do it, wrong or right. :D
Well we all have to learn. It just takes a lot of practice. One thing I learned years ago is that a tree will only fall 3 ways, the way it leans and 90 degrees to each side of lean, don't try to fell in the fourth direction. Keep a good hinge and in frozen wood it helps to tap wedges and not pound to hard as they tend to bounce out. Just my 2 cents good luck and keep plugging, you will come into it.
There's truth to that Bill!
No two trees seem to react the same way.
You can cut the hinges down to one inch and the tree still hang there at times.
Different species react differently and weather conditions add to that.
I think that's what makes it so interesting for me at least.
Quote from: Good Feller on February 27, 2009, 10:26:51 PM
I love you too!!! It has been a while, did you miss me??? LOL. I see you still hold the position of Forestry Forum security....
I see somebody else loves to end their sentences with multiple dots. :D :D :D ;)
Don
I cut a couple hundred cords of aspen off of our property, let me tell you I had a lot of them lean back, fall where they weren't supposed too, etc.. I think I have a photo of one of those aspen on top of the Timberjack in my gallery, one I tried to push over like you did and the hinge broke. Not good as it was, even worse without a cab at all. Real ROPS are designed to support the weight of the machine in the case of a roll over and protect the operator from being crushed. Only real Forestry cabs are designed to keep trees out. Anyhow, as someone else mentioned, learn to use a bore cut it is a lot safer I think. You make your face cut, then bore into the back cut so that there is holding wood left at the very back. You can tune your hinge up real nice and get it just the way you want it because the tree isn't taking off falling while you're trying to finish your cut. Then pull out your bar, place your wedges from both sides, and then you can cut the holding wood at the back. If the tree falls-good. If not- drive your wedges till it does. This is much easier to do than I make it sound, others have explained this before on the forum with illustrations even. My best advice is to not try to get to fancy with the felling until you get a fair amount of experience. Let them fall where they want to go. And be safe, nothing in the woods is as dangerous as a hung tree.
:D ;D
It must mean sumpthin Don.
Maybe a warning sign. :D
Mooseherder, that is a experience I'd not care to repeat anytime soon.
Don
I appreciate this thread. I ocassionally cut a few trees and have to cut probably another 20 or 30. Your thoughts on this thread have movitivated me to learn more about felling, which will make my task safer. Thank you.
Anyone have a line on a GOL or similar course offered near MN in 2009?
Jander,
Contact your DNR. Often the state coordinates with a GOL instructor for cutter training.
Jander3
I took the course from Ken Lallemont and he is in N. WI
http://www.ken-lallemont.com/
Indicates his schedule can be obtained by emailing him.
There is info at his sight, about the 4 levels he teaches.
I've heard that he teaches many of the GOL courses in WI, MN, IA and other states.
He is good.
Quote from: Kevin on February 23, 2009, 10:18:31 PM
Dale;
When you say shoot for level do you mean a back cut that's level with the apex of the notch?
I stack wedges all the time in smaller trees with back lean because of the short driving distance to the hinge.
If they are popping out try drifting them across each other.
Yes level to the point of the notch. I stack wedges as well or center bore and drive wedge that way.
I've always added stump shot to increase the hinge size slightly and to prevent the tree from coming back.
:( Stymied by the weather again :(
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/349/DSCN0334.JPG)
I had hoped to plow the road quickly and get a couple trees down on Saturday but 8" of snow with a bit of wind put too many drifts in my way. I got stuck with my 3/4 ton 4-wheel drive and had to walk 4 miles to get the cat. Plowed back to the truck, pull it out then plow a ways, walk back for the truck, drive to the cat, plow a ways.....which means I walked the whole 4 miles again :'( By that time my butt was dragging too low to walk in the snow in the woods and the sun was going down.
I know - next Saturday :)