The new low sulfer fuel (on and off road 15ppm) is good for air quality, but has you noticed how fast it burns?( a hole in your wallet).
I myself use only Hi-sulfer deisel at least thats what it's supposed to be, upon guestioning one of the fuel delivery drivers on the quality of the fuel and that I was loosing power and adding additives on one peticular bad batch was told that the off road deisel was the same low sulfer they market for on road yet with dye, we are being decieved but at least it's still cheaper.
It doesen't have the power or the economy of the old true high sulfer.
Anybody else running into this problem in your area?
Quote from: logger444 on March 06, 2009, 11:57:54 PM
The new low sulfer fuel (on and off road 15ppm) is good for air quality, but has you noticed how fast it burns?( a hole in your wallet).
It might also burn something else up, like and injector pump. Putting additive in to provide a little luberication. A lot of the good ole boys down here will put transmission fluid in off road machines. Cant to that to taged veh. the DOT might think you were running off road fuel. Just a nother Gooberment foul up. Right up there with putting corn in the gas. >:( Well I guess i better shut up before I get sent to the woodshed. ;D Tim
I usually keep some tranny fluid on the back of the truck where it is handy to add.
I have heard that there is alot of metal showing up in oil anylysis of trucks running ulsd. You MUST use addtives (OR run biodiesel). I saw a something a year ago where 2% biodiesel was better than whites/howes or whather you for adding back lubricisity. The sulfur used to provide a cushion, but since they had to take that out (adding expense) and I think they replace the sufur with Natural gas which also adds expense. Well at least the air is cleaner so you can breathe eaiser walking after you ruin your rig running more expensive fuel.
i read somewhere that starting in 2010 all the fuel will be low sulfer farm diesrl included probly some parts of the country it already is it would be cheaper for the dist to just carry one brand red food coloring would be cheaper then stocking two mixtures you all are right it burns faster ,does not lubricate fuel pump and injectors as well ,cost more ,trans fluid does help ,i use power service also ,sometimes i kind of wonder about e p a ::) ::) ;)
Like Shinnlinger, I read that 2% biodiesel provided almost twice the lubricity of the additive$. Takes a little math to figure out how many gallons of 20% bio you need to get 2% .... And it may affect the gel temp..
Some older engines have O-rings that the new fuel will dry out and they crack and leak.
I don't think there is choice up here, it's all marketed as ultra-low sulphur (15 parts per million (ppm) or less) from what I've seen advertised and from what I see posted for prices from the Public Utilities Board.
http://www.irvingoil.com/company/refinery.asp
Quote from: Polly on March 07, 2009, 11:09:05 AM
you all are right it burns faster ,does not lubricate fuel pump and injectors as well ,cost more ,trans fluid does help ,i use power service also ,sometimes i kind of wonder about e p a ::) ::) ;)
The other day I noticed the knuckle boom (Prentice 210 C with JD 6) sound a little different. I put half a can of the Power Service you mentioned in the tank about half full or a little better. It hellped almost imediately. I checked the Perkins thats on the saw mill it said it was made for the low sulpher stuff...we'll see. Tim
Another issue I have noticed is it doesn't cut the pitch on my bands, while sawing pine, as well as the old fuel did. I picked up a 5 gallon can of heating oil, instead, and use that for pitch relief. This could be my imagination but I don't think so.
Tim
Spruce,
Thanks for the Bio reminder, I have been buying the additive, now I just need to find the local bio pump.
With all this ULSD issue it has just reaffirmed the degree to which there is little advantage to a diesel engine. If you add up all the increased sales price, fuel additives (for older ones), anti gel for all, increased maintainence cost, expensive fuel (more than gas) and the pain of plugging in during cold temps, it seems of little advantage to not own a gasser. I have an old 7.3 Ferd. very dependable and seemingly powerful, but all the older arguements for owning a diesel seem to have fallen away in recent years. I feel like the big oil is just taking advantage to some degree (they always do) of the little diesel market to pinch the consumer. I think years back, you could pay much less for diesel than gas, and sensing that growing market segment they increased the cost of the diesel. I understand for many small stations putting in an extra pump for a low volume product (compared to gas) that they need to charge a little more per gallon to recoup investment, but it makes me feel like a NEW diesel may not be a best choice, especially for local short milage driving. Some of the folks driving the Chevy Duramax/ Allison combo may not agree (20 MPG) and Dodge I dont know, but if you are Ford guy buying a newish (6.0- 6.4) given the motor issues out there a gasser would be a best choice. Every winter I do some auction trips and hotels rarely have an outlet for a few diesel guys, so when the temps are 10 degrees and the wind is howling I always wonder if the morning will bring another challenge, starting my truck.
Ironwood
Post opinions please
I have a 2007 Kubota and a 2008 cat 51 on my woodmizer.
Is low sulphur an issue with these engines?
If so, how much percentage tranny fluid should I add.
Also I had a romance with diesel cars, one '79 Olds Cutlass, smaller of the two engines offered with a 5 speed manual tranny , one 81 VW Rabbit and a 85 Chevy 6.2 pickup in the 80s when diesel was cheaper than gas.
Gave up on buying diesels in '88 when it was no longer cost effective. Did keep the Olds until 93 when I sold it to my brother. this was my favorite car of all time.
Thanks
Pete
Iron,
I agree with you to really price out a new diesel and all its "charms" and compare to a gas job. Unless you consistently, really put the miles on your truck, I think gas wins, and it really does smell of something fishy. I currently have a 7.3 powerjoke in my truck and my next truck will probably be a gasser which saddens me.
Pete,
In my opinion, I would find someone who makes biodiesel in your area and mix it 50/50 with dino diesel, maybe knock it down to 20% in the winter with standard antigel addatives. This is what I have done for the past year or so with good results in all my machines. You might notice a SLIGHT loss in power, but you will probably save some $ doing this and the exhaust is way better smelling
Now when I say biodiesel, I mean stuff that has been processed with heat and has been washed. People who simply filter used fyer grease(griesell) give bio a bad name when the unprocessed stuff full of oven cleaner hits their fuel pump.
Quote from: petefrombearswamp on March 08, 2009, 08:31:10 AM
Post opinions please
I have a 2007 Kubota and a 2008 cat 51 on my woodmizer.
Is low sulphur an issue with these engines?
If so, how much percentage tranny fluid should I add.
Also I had a romance with diesel cars, one '79 Olds Cutlass, smaller of the two engines offered with a 5 speed manual tranny , one 81 VW Rabbit and a 85 Chevy 6.2 pickup in the 80s when diesel was cheaper than gas.
Gave up on buying diesels in '88 when it was no longer cost effective. Did keep the Olds until 93 when I sold it to my brother. this was my favorite car of all time.
Thanks
Pete
I don't know about the Kubota, and i need to find out bcause I have two of them. One on a 900 atv and the other on a M7040 tractor. But on you 51 cat, I believe they are really made by Perkins. On top of my Perkins there is a label that say for low sulpher diesel fuel. Check to see if the Cat has the same thing on it. You are in about the same boat as me, fairly new motor and don't want to mess up a waranty, but I personally don't think the Gooberment thought this thorugh and it may mess up the newer motors as well, just will probably last long enough to get it out of warranty. :( I think I read somewhere about "Man dominateing man to his injury" could be it just might apply to our diesels. >:( Tim
Biodiesel can be made VERY easily, right in your kitchen. 2% can be calculated VERY easily ::)
i dont want to act like a know it all but do you all know that farm off road diesel and home heating oil are one of the same , kerosene is no 1 grade and home heating and farm diesel is no 2 grade ,some states like ky farmers dont have to pay road tax on farm diesel which results in around 26 cents pr gal savings , i agree about going back to gas engines a new class 6 truck with a diesel engine put on the roadis around 70,000 dollars ,and a gas engine class 6 would be a lot less :-\ :-\
Off road diesel is low sulfur or ultra low sulfur. At least in NY. It is illegal for a dealer to put home heating oil in anything but a heating tank. I wonder where all the sulfur goes when you burn it in a furnace?
in ky furnace oil and farm tractor oil same thing ;)
I don't think there is a difference between dyed diesel and on-road here, besides color. The price is around .40 less per gallon though. The school buses and some state rigs burn it on the road, and some farmers and loggers too I guess, same stuff as far as fuel quality goes.
as for as i know farm diesel is supposed to have a higher sulfur content , i dont know about the cetane level ::) ::)
As to the tranny fluid I put a quart to 20 gallons every third or forth tank, it's wonderful for keeping the carbon off valves and injectors,don't worry about over mixing it'll mix in fine, it's instant relief for carboned up engines. Scale your tank size in relation to the amount you put in. had a freind tell me once if you put a cup of Marvel Mystry oil with fill up you will never have a problem with injectors, he ran his trucks that way till the day he died.
Have a friend that delivers fuel, he says in Missouri, farm diesel and road diesel are one and the same anymore. He said he was basically told not to say anything about it being the same.
Here in Maine heating oil is still 50 ppm, on road and off road is 15 ppm. I asked for heating oil and the company said they couldn't do it, it is only for home use. They have a special truck and certain days to deliver the off road fuel.
Tim
In most places the only difference between onroad and offroad diesel and home heating oil is the die. Offroad cost less because there are no road taxes embedded in the price.
Any diesel engine built from 2007 on is supposedly designed for ULSD. Older engines will need some type of lubircant additive. Biodiesel has much higher lubricity and is a good additive for USLD. A 2% mix will give you the added lubrication and will not have any gelling problems.
There is a worse development now on the market which is causing problems for diesel owners, especially those running biodiesel. The push for cleaner emissions resulted in all the major diesel engine manufacturers adding a diesel particulate module in the exhaust stream. This module filters out the particulates and then gets cleaned with a blast of diesel fuel as the injectors fire on the exhaust stroke periodically. These modules clog rapidly with any use of biodiesel. Bottom line - diesel engines form 2008 on use more fuel, deliver less power and are not biodiesel friendly. It remains to be seen if these engines are actually cleaner over time. the particulate is burned out with the addition of fuel so even if the engine appears to be cleaner after the burn the burn itself pollutes. Diesel engines burning B100 are cleaner all the time. Another case of the engine manufacturers attempting to burn a dirty fuel cleaner rather than acknowledging and pushing for the benefits of a cleaner fuel.
i agree ,with the added cost of the engines 2007 or later and the expense of trying to maintane the exhaust system ,i run only class 6 trucks ,but i am priced compleatly out of the ball game , unless i can buy a class6 truck with a gas engine installed,or buy used penski truck no neewer then 2006 and change the box to fit my spec i guess i will be done my answer right now is to maintane the eqpt i presently have as long as possible ::) ::)
OWW, that sounds like government control. They want to have you only burning fossil fuel in your truck, no alternative, end of discussion. Maybe it is big oil in control.
The label on the Heating oil pump at the local convenience store says this product can harm your newer diesel engine. Where is the warning label on the on road fuel pump saying it can harm older diesel engines? Actually, I think there is a label saying it is fine to run in you older engine. What's up? If it needs a lubricant why don't they just add it in?
Tim
Well we all know the econ. sit. is not too good. What if every body that has a truck or whatever (skidder, sawmill, ) over 2 or 3 years old has to replace it. Sure would be a lot of economic stimulas. Tim
Well I hope the price of wood takes a big jump and lotsa buyers. Won't happen because , like farming they gotta keep the man that owns the tree in the lowest pay scale. Take crown wood for instance, worth less than private wood, so it forces prices for private wood down because there is less demand for higher priced wood. No obligation to buy it from private, although they cry about depleting wood supply. Which isn't quite true, they just don't want to buy it. And some outfits still fail. It isn't the cost of wood, it's hiring people who can't get the job done. Too many viewing forest management from windshields and computer screens, bad marketing, lack of innovation. On top of that, being hamstrung by regulation and certifications that your competition does not have to deal with. ::)
Additives=money no matter who put it in the fuel, AND evidentally that is the "bad" stuff the goberment doesnt want us using ::)
As far as the heating oil damaging an older engine, sounds like rubbish to me. If it is kero, then it is "hotter" and from what I hear you gotta watch burning that.
Ironwood
kero has less btus so how can it be 'hotter'. I thought the problem was viscosity with kero.
Stonebroke
Some knowlegable Bloke I know just said "be careful", perhaps mistakenly, I thought it was an issue of buring hotter. I do know, he recommended it for winter anti gel. I trust him, one of the best hands on "genius types" I know. He could, build, fix, modify, fabricate anything on the planet.
Ironwood
Off road and on road diesel are the same because of the ultra low sulfur requirements - they run in the same refineries, pipelines and storage tanks. The refinery industry found the only to meet the new regulations is to make them the same (or build a new refinery) ::).
OWW:
Particulate filters are much more environmentally friendly than allowing the particulate matter (PM) to escape into the atmosphere. The collection in the filter and the subsequent regeneration cycle turns the PM into ash which is much less harmful to lungs and smog formation. The trucks did take a hit on performance with the introduction of DPFs but they are getting better all the time. If your still under warranty, get your dealer flashs your ECM with the latest control strategy - this should help. Some OEMs are up to rev 40 on ECM flash. Everyday we're learning how to improve the regen cycle.
Remember things get even weirder in 2010MY. Most trucks will have SCR with urea injection in addition to DOC/DPF. Good thing is the performance should get better because the engines will not be relying on EGR to reduce emissions therefore they should breath easier on the inlet side - unofficially 2-3% better MPG.